Kim Hohlmayer on fri 15 aug 08
Dear Jim,
The first school my son attended looked like the fancy one. The one he is in now is a lot like the poor one. The truth is both have been good schools. Yes, it is wrong to have differences like this. Compare the schools of Dublin, Ohio and Brown County, Ohio. Same state but massive difference. School funding as it is currently practiced is horrificly unfair. And you can bet the class sizes in the wealty schools are smaller than in the poor schools. There is so much wrong with the way the U.S. handles public education but money is just the symptom not the single cause. I could go on and on but this is clayart not edu.chat so I'll step off the soap box before anyone gets irritated and pushes me off. ;^) --Kim H.
--- On Fri, 8/15/08, James and Sherron Bowen wrote:
> From: James and Sherron Bowen
> Subject: Re: class size
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Date: Friday, August 15, 2008, 1:02 AM
> There's more to education than class size. Facilities
> can have a great
> impact. Have a look at this video about two schools just 25
> miles apart.
> http://blog.greateducation.org/showDiary.do?diaryId=375
>
> Jim
James and Sherron Bowen on fri 15 aug 08
My daughter took physics and chemistry in a small school in Eastern Colorado
and never saw a piece of lab equipment. The problem is definitely school
funding inequities. When I say small I mean that there were 9 students in
her graduating class.
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kim Hohlmayer"
To:
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: class size Yes it's off topic but not totally.
> Dear Jim,
> The first school my son attended looked like the fancy one. The one
> he is in now is a lot like the poor one. The truth is both have been good
> schools. Yes, it is wrong to have differences like this. Compare the
> schools of Dublin, Ohio and Brown County, Ohio. Same state but massive
> difference. School funding as it is currently practiced is horrificly
> unfair. And you can bet the class sizes in the wealty schools are smaller
> than in the poor schools. There is so much wrong with the way the U.S.
> handles public education but money is just the symptom not the single
> cause. I could go on and on but this is clayart not edu.chat so I'll step
> off the soap box before anyone gets irritated and pushes me off.
> ;^) --Kim H.
>
>
> --- On Fri, 8/15/08, James and Sherron Bowen
> wrote:
>
>> From: James and Sherron Bowen
>> Subject: Re: class size
>> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>> Date: Friday, August 15, 2008, 1:02 AM
>> There's more to education than class size. Facilities
>> can have a great
>> impact. Have a look at this video about two schools just 25
>> miles apart.
>> http://blog.greateducation.org/showDiary.do?diaryId=375
>>
>> Jim
>
>
Arnold Howard on mon 18 aug 08
From: "Kim Hohlmayer"
School funding as it is currently practiced is horrificly
unfair. And you can bet the class sizes in the wealty
schools are smaller than in the poor schools.
-----------
Parent participation is important too--probably more
important than class size and funding.
Sincerely,
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA
ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com
James and Sherron Bowen on mon 18 aug 08
One of the problems we have encountered here in Colorado is the definitions
of "poor" and "rich" school districts. We have school district that spend
well over $10,000 per student and those that spend about $8,000 per student.
Which is rich and which is poor? Our rural school district spends over $10k
for each of its 100 or so K-12 students mostly because of increased
facilities costs and the costs of very long rural bus routes.
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arnold Howard"
To:
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: class size Yes it's off topic but not totally.
> From: "Kim Hohlmayer"
> School funding as it is currently practiced is horrificly
> unfair. And you can bet the class sizes in the wealty
> schools are smaller than in the poor schools.
> -----------
> Parent participation is important too--probably more
> important than class size and funding.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Arnold Howard
> Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA
> ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com
>
>
Monica Wright on mon 18 aug 08
I have read with great interest many if not all of the recent topics concerning public education, agreeing with some, shaking my head at others. Here comes some rambling from me now.
Just because a school is well funded does not mean that the class sizes are small. I remember last year having several classes of fourth grade students at 30-31 students. I have in the past had kindergarten classes in excess of 28/29 students. Illinois state law mandates that at a certain class size the class must be split... or an aide is added to the room. At 3-5 grade the magic number is 31. 31 kids!!! And this is at the begining of the year. If you start the year at 30 and two days later you add one... oh well. Can't very well split a class into two once the year is started, now can we. Guess what? Now, on top of 31 kids an adult twice the size of any of the students is thrown in the room "to help". At Kindergarten-Second grade that magic number is 26.
Many people have made arguments based on the amount of time able to be spent with a child one-on-one. That isn't the problem -in most cases. The problems are noise level, physical space, budget, etc... If you have a class of 16 5 year olds the problems are small in compared to 22 five year olds. Instead of 2 or 3 kids yanking on your shirt you have 5 or 6 doing it. And one of them is probably picking their nose at the same time.
Around March fifth graders start noticing boys/girls. Yes, fifth graders. They stink because they rarely take a shower. With 21 10year olds there is an odor that you can usually ignore. With 31 kids you want to cry. Trust me, the problems are not so much one-onone time with students.
Parent involvement isn't always what it is cracked up to be. Beware of what you wish for.
Sorry, I had a bad day at school today. I needed to rant a bit.
-Steve
Arnold Howard wrote:
From: "Kim Hohlmayer"
School funding as it is currently practiced is horrificly
unfair. And you can bet the class sizes in the wealty
schools are smaller than in the poor schools.
-----------
Parent participation is important too--probably more
important than class size and funding.
Sincerely,
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA
ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com
gayle bair on tue 19 aug 08
Sorry to burst the bubble...
I was a school board director in a small school district in PA
I fought the ridiculously high salaries the administration and their
crony
good ole boys gave themselves. I exposed the fact that substitute
teachers made less
than substitute janitors. I won't bore you with other outrages I
uncovered.
My point is that even with those problems much more was "spent" per
child than in the
Boulder CO school district where we subsequently moved. The Boulder
students achievements were excellent
with very good test/graduation/college/success rates while that small
district in PA statistics were rock bottom
for all the years I was there... the corruption was sickening.
I got pretty good at pinpointing their sleazy tricks... unfortunately
we moved before I could get them all.
My kids still thank us for moving.
The superintendent in Boulder had double the students spent much less
per student & made half the salary the superintendent made in that
little district.
So I think it's not how much you spend per student but how much
education is invested in the students.
Gayle Bair - rant over... I'm staying out of it now... even though
it's been over 12 years I still get too worked up about this subject
Bainbridge Island WA
Tucson AZ
gayle@claybair.com
www.claybair.com
On Aug 18, 2008, at 5:11 PM, James and Sherron Bowen wrote:
> One of the problems we have encountered here in Colorado is the
> definitions
> of "poor" and "rich" school districts. We have school district that
> spend
> well over $10,000 per student and those that spend about $8,000 per
> student.
> Which is rich and which is poor? Our rural school district spends
> over $10k
> for each of its 100 or so K-12 students mostly because of increased
> facilities costs and the costs of very long rural bus routes.
> Jim
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Arnold Howard"
> To:
> Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 8:27 AM
> Subject: Re: class size Yes it's off topic but not totally.
>
>
>> From: "Kim Hohlmayer"
>> School funding as it is currently practiced is horrificly
>> unfair. And you can bet the class sizes in the wealty
>> schools are smaller than in the poor schools.
>> -----------
>> Parent participation is important too--probably more
>> important than class size and funding.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Arnold Howard
>> Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA
>> ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com
>>
>>
jonathan byler on tue 19 aug 08
I had some parent involvement like that once. the one time I was
teaching a class, some kid has to fail, and then her mom just HAS to
call me and find out why. I was so glad to hide behind the thick
smokescreen of federal law, and my voice mail, since this person
obviously didn't understand how just plain indecent and unethical it
was to be poking about in the educational affairs of her adult
daughter. I finally figured out the right thing to do, and told her
she should ask her daughter what the problem was, if she was so
curious about it, since I could not and would not discuss the matter.
I also ran into those parents you mention when I was in high school.
I had a friend, his parents thought their kids could do no wrong.
his sister earned a B in some class, and they fought and cussed and
kicked because their kid was soooo smart, and couldn't possibly have
made only a B. I knew the kid pretty well, and she was B quality,
but you can't convince most parents their kids aren't perfect. My
pops taught high school for a few years, and had to give poor grades
to some honors chem students for doing poor/no work. he got "let go"
since there was no way such "smart" kids could make such poor
grades. Honors kids are by definition smart, no? So they must get
an A on everything... On of them had a parent on the school board.
Must have been his fault they were fooling around and not studying
nor doing their homework.
To bring this back to ceramics, My high school ceramics teacher was
so charming and charismatic, that I never once saw anyone giving him
a hard time, students or parents. It probably happened, but it sure
wasn't obvious like it was with many of the other teachers. Don was
like a force of nature, and you just couldn't help but want to do
your best so that he would be proud of you, and achieving the level
of work that he expected made you proud of yourself. I never did
figure out exactly what makes him tick, but whatever it was, it sure
was inspiring for us kids to be around. I mean, people would come
and work during lunch and after school, because they loved it so
much. It probably had to do with the fact that you knew right off
the bat that this guy loved what he did, loved that you wanted to do
it, and went above and beyond the call of duty to facilitate and make
it happen. He got visiting artists, he got shows, he set up a
gallery, student pot auctions... I kind of feel like a slouch now
thinking about it. He had many students in his high school classes
who churned out work as good as any college kid.
I hope the rest of you teachers, especially the ones that deal with
the 18 and younger set, find some way to be loving and inspiring
every day. More than anything, showing the impressionable young
souls that you truly care, seems to be the difference between the
teachers who succeed and the ones that don't, regardless of the class
size, the budget, etc.
happy start of the semester,
jon
jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849
On Aug 18, 2008, at 7:47 PM, Monica Wright wrote:
>
>
> Parent involvement isn't always what it is cracked up to be.
> Beware of what you wish for.
>
> Sorry, I had a bad day at school today. I needed to rant a bit.
>
> -Steve
>
James and Sherron Bowen on tue 19 aug 08
That's my point. While we don't have the corruption that you experienced in
Pennsylvania, the actual amount spent in the class room here is much less
than in Boulder and the teachers there are much better compensated. Our
results vary from year class to year class, but in some areas such as
science our kids have no hands on experience. The quality of education is
dependent on the ability of the teacher that a class is fortunate to have
and whether or not the school is actually providing a certain class in a
given year. If you don't have a teacher capable of teaching say physics or
organic chemistry then it isn't offered and our kids have difficulty
competing with the Boulder valley schools for college slots. I was at the
Boulder Valley Schools surplus property auction last month. That's where I
bought my pugmill. They sold laboratory equipment (microscopes, centrifuge,
etc) as surplus that is better that our school has to use.
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "gayle bair"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 1:13 AM
Subject: Re: class size Yes it's off topic but not totally.
> Sorry to burst the bubble...
> I was a school board director in a small school district in PA
Kim Hohlmayer on tue 19 aug 08
You are so right, Howard. However, the public or government or whatever can control class size. We can only encourage parental involvement. At parent/teacher conferences the parents we really wanted to meet with usually never showed up no matter what we did to try to get them there. --Kim H.
--- On Mon, 8/18/08, Arnold Howard wrote:
> From: Arnold Howard
> Subject: Re: class size Yes it's off topic but not totally.
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Date: Monday, August 18, 2008, 10:27 AM
> From: "Kim Hohlmayer"
>
> School funding as it is currently practiced is horrificly
> unfair. And you can bet the class sizes in the wealty
> schools are smaller than in the poor schools.
> -----------
> Parent participation is important too--probably more
> important than class size and funding.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Arnold Howard
> Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA
> ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com
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