James F on thu 14 aug 08
Well said=2C John. So if one were to boil it down=2C perhaps the ACT is ul=
timately a measure of how much the parents give a sh*t about their child's =
eventually success (without delving into the purely philosophical realm of =
"what is success?"). The smartest kid I knew in school had lousy grades=2C=
lousy test scores=2C and had minor skirmishes with the law. He also had p=
arents who didn't care. If the U.S. Navy hadn't figured out how smart he w=
as=2C he would be in a bad place today instead attending college at their e=
xpense and direction=2C and eventually spending three years sailing his own=
boat around the South Pacific.
Be well.
...James
> Date: Wed=2C 13 Aug 2008 23:01:45 -0500
> From: jebyler2@GMAIL.COM
> Subject: Re: Counsel needed ~wandering away from Kelly's topic into publi=
c education/ACT scores etc.
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>=20
> John=2C
>=20
> the ACT and SAT tests actually do reflect how many people will
> perform in college=2C often more so than the grades they get in high
> school. Do they work for everyone? no=2C but for most people=2C they
> seem to work. if they didn't=2C and colleges were consistently getting
> poor performers with good numbers=2C they would either stop using the
> tests as entrance criteria=2C or change the tests.
>=20
> There is also a big difference to the ACT/SAT and the B.S. tests that
> the no child left behind program is pushing. I think=2C to get back to
> what lee was saying=2C that if you look at those districts or schools
> where the ACT scores are the highest=2C you will also find the best
> schools=2C where teachers actually do teach labs in physics=2C chem and
> bio. You will find schools were art is not a one day a week affair.
> you will find teachers who are given the resources to succeed. you
> will also often find high property taxes and high teacher salaries=2C
> and a greater number of teachers like yourself who actually give a damn.
>=20
> most importantly=2C however for any elementary or secondary school
> teacher=2C you will find parents who are engaged in their children's
> education.
>=20
> -jon
>=20
>=20
> jon byler
> 3-D Building Coordinator
> Art Department
> Auburn University=2C AL 36849
>=20
> On Aug 13=2C 2008=2C at 9:34 PM=2C John Post wrote:
>=20
> > Lee=2C
> >
> > I am surprised to see you quoting ACT scores as any measure of the
> > quality of a school district or educational experience. But I do
> > agree that resources like good teachers with good salaries and ample
> > budgets are more likely to produce a quality educational experience
> > for kids than schools without these things.
> >
> > Here's a min-rant about standardized testing which then evolves into a
> > few other topics...
> >
> > ACT scores are just a way for colleges to easily sort out the
> > applications they get. Instead of actually learning about a candidate
> > for the school they just look at some kid's numbers and decide whether
> > or not he/she gets in. At least in the arts=2C schools often look at
> > student portfolios instead of numbers.
> >
> > Why do students take the ACT? So they can get into college of course.
> >
> > All of our education system is designed to teach kids how to pass
> > tests so they can get into college. It's like a giant freezer
> > method. Here=2C put all this information in your brain when you are in
> > 6th grade so you can pull it out and use it when you get to college.
> > You won't actually have to demonstrate your understanding of what you
> > learned=2C you can just show us by filling in the correct bubbles on a
> > test sheet.
> >
> > We are always teaching kids what they are going to need to know for
> > the next level=2C and the biggest next level of all is college. Why
> > don't we ever teach them about stuff that they are interested in based
> > on the age they are at right now?
> >
> > This year my son learned about Boyle's law of gasses in science. The
> > teacher taught this by having the kids read about it from their
> > science text=2C I am sure they were all riveted. A good teacher could
> > bring this scientific law to life using props and doing experiments
> > (12 year old boys know alot about gas)=2C but when I asked my son's
> > teacher about it=2C he said he didn't have time to do many experiments
> > because he had to get through all of the curriculum. WTF?
> >
> > That's like saying I don't have time to really teach the kids because
> > I am too busy getting through the curriculum.
> >
> > Of course this is all predicated on the assumption that he will need
> > to know this to get into college so let's make sure we just jam it in
> > his little freezer.
> >
> > The best treatise I ever read on education was written by an auto-
> > mechanic. It's from Tom Magliozzi of the famous Click and Clack
> > Tappet Brothers of NPR. You can read it here...
> >
> > http://www.cartalk.com/content/rant/r-rlast15.html
> >
> > As far as curriculum guides go=2C after reading it=2C I usually throw m=
ine
> > out. The schools I have worked for hired me because I am an artist
> > and teacher. If an artist can't teach kids how to make art=2C who can?
> > Most of the curriculum guides I have read are based on the principle
> > "a mile wide and an inch deep". Let's just expose the little guys to
> > a little of everything in the hopes that some of it sticks. My dad (a
> > truck driver) had this to say about that theory "if you throw enough
> > shit at the wall some of it is bound to stick".
> >
> > In my district some teachers feel that since the curriculum guide has
> > weaving in it=2C that they must do a weaving project. So they do these
> > paper strip weaving projects instead of actually weaving a basket or a
> > rug or anything with real fibers. The kids usually throw them out
> > before they even hit the hallway. So in theory the kids have met the
> > curriculum and done a weaving project=2C but how much did they value it=
?
> >
> > If you make something in clay with a kid=2C the kids are always asking
> > when they are going to get it back. I had a grandmother of a
> > kindergarten student come in one time and show me the pinch pot she
> > made when she was an elementary student. I asked her if she had any
> > of her other school work from her elementary school days and it turned
> > out the only thing she kept from 7 years at the elementary level was
> > the tiny pot. It's amazing the effect that one little lump of clay
> > can have on someone.
> >
> > The way I teach wouldn't work for every teacher=2C it really just suits
> > me and my style=2C but here are some of my guiding principles...
> >
> > ~If I am not super pumped up about the lesson I am teaching=2C the kids
> > won't be either. I have got to want to learn about it and do it as
> > much as they do.
> >
> > ~Only work with authentic art materials. Drawing media=2C watercolor=
=2C
> > tempera=2C clay and glazes. No milk cartons=2C no glitter=2C no wiggly
> > eyes=2C no holiday art -ever. The kids need to work out 2-D and 3-D
> > problems just like real artists do. I once heard one kid say to a new
> > kid "In art class=2C first Mr. Post teaches us how to make a painting
> > about something and then he teaches us how to make a sculpture about
> > it." I never spelled it out like that for this kid=2C he just observe=
d
> > how things work relating to the way I delivered the curriculum.
> >
> > ~ALWAYS tell the kids the goal of each lesson. If they are learning
> > about contrast=2C variety=2C cool colors or composition=2C tell them ho=
w
> > they can show what they learned in their art work.
> >
> > ~Leave room in each lesson for the kids to embellish and add their own
> > personality. As long as the kid has met the main goal of the
> > assignment he/she is free to make other parts of it their own.
> >
> > I am not advocating that anyone else needs to take my approach to
> > teaching or that because I do it this way that the way they are doing
> > it isn't valid for them. Teaching is ultimately about people and
> > relationships. I am an artist because I met a painter named Tom
> > Parrish when I was in the last of the three different art programs I
> > tried. If not for him=2C I probably would have given up on the arts. =
I
> > loved his lectures about things that art students should do to become
> > artists. It wasn't the painting curriculum that made me want to be a
> > painter=2C it was the passion for painting that Tom Parrish delivered i=
n
> > his presentations and critiques.
> >
> > Can you tell I have a sinus infection and am spending more time on the
> > computer than in the studio because of the achy-all-over feeling?
> >
> >
> > John Post
> > Sterling Heights=2C Michigan
> >
> > :: cone 6 glaze website :: http://www.johnpost.us
> > :: elementary art website :: http://www.wemakeart.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Aug 13=2C 2008=2C at 7:46 PM=2C Lee Love wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> I just heard that the top States in the ACT testing are:
> >>
> >> 1. Minnesota
> >> 2. Iowa
> >> 3. Wisconsin
> >>
> >> Bet they all pay more than $45=2C000 at 25 years.
_________________________________________________________________
Got Game? Win Prizes in the Windows Live Hotmail Mobile Summer Games Trivia=
Contest
http://www.gowindowslive.com/summergames?ocid=3DTXT_TAGHM=
John Post on thu 14 aug 08
One of my student teaching placements was in a high school. My
supervising teacher at the time was working on his administration
endorsement. At lunch one day he mentioned that he read that one of
the big ivy league colleges was trying to figure out which candidates
would do best at their institution based on all of the paperwork each
candidate submitted.
What they did was look at their top graduating students and try to
find the best predictor of success from their application
information. They found that the best predictor of student success in
the future was the education level of the mother! Not the ACT/SAT,
writing pieces, portfolio, community service etc. Not that these
things weren't valuable, it's just that they weren't the best
predictor of future academic success. At the time this was just a
casual lunch conversation, but it has crossed my mind many times since
that lunch some 19 years ago and I wish I had bothered to ask him for
the article so I could reference it in the future.
John Post
Sterling Heights, Michigan
:: cone 6 glaze website :: http://www.johnpost.us
:: elementary art website :: http://www.wemakeart.org
On Aug 14, 2008, at 9:01 AM, James F wrote:
> Well said, John. So if one were to boil it down, perhaps the ACT is
> ultimately a measure of how much the parents give a sh*t about their
> child's eventually success
jonathan byler on thu 14 aug 08
That probably has a lot to do with parental interaction, too. a
mother who has taken the time and effort to get a phd and also raise
her kids is probably also going to take the time to help them
succeed. I had two mothers with phd's, I wonder why I am not more
wildly successful.... ;) hehe.
jon
jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849
On Aug 14, 2008, at 10:41 AM, John Post wrote:
> One of my student teaching placements was in a high school. My
> supervising teacher at the time was working on his administration
> endorsement. At lunch one day he mentioned that he read that one of
> the big ivy league colleges was trying to figure out which candidates
> would do best at their institution based on all of the paperwork each
> candidate submitted.
>
> What they did was look at their top graduating students and try to
> find the best predictor of success from their application
> information. They found that the best predictor of student success in
> the future was the education level of the mother! Not the ACT/SAT,
> writing pieces, portfolio, community service etc. Not that these
> things weren't valuable, it's just that they weren't the best
> predictor of future academic success. At the time this was just a
> casual lunch conversation, but it has crossed my mind many times since
> that lunch some 19 years ago and I wish I had bothered to ask him for
> the article so I could reference it in the future.
>
> John Post
> Sterling Heights, Michigan
>
> :: cone 6 glaze website :: http://www.johnpost.us
> :: elementary art website :: http://www.wemakeart.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 14, 2008, at 9:01 AM, James F wrote:
>
>> Well said, John. So if one were to boil it down, perhaps the ACT is
>> ultimately a measure of how much the parents give a sh*t about their
>> child's eventually success
jonathan byler on thu 14 aug 08
well,
there are exceptions to just about any generalization.
generalizations are handy for setting overall policy. smart and
caring people then go about figuring out what to do to help the ten
percent or so either end of the curve who don't fit the mold.
jon
jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849
On Aug 14, 2008, at 8:01 AM, James F wrote:
> Well said, John. So if one were to boil it down, perhaps the ACT
> is ultimately a measure of how much the parents give a sh*t about
> their child's eventually success (without delving into the purely
> philosophical realm of "what is success?"). The smartest kid I
> knew in school had lousy grades, lousy test scores, and had minor
> skirmishes with the law. He also had parents who didn't care. If
> the U.S. Navy hadn't figured out how smart he was, he would be in a
> bad place today instead attending college at their expense and
> direction, and eventually spending three years sailing his own boat
> around the South Pacific.
>
> Be well.
>
> ...James
>
>
>
>> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 23:01:45 -0500
>> From: jebyler2@GMAIL.COM
>> Subject: Re: Counsel needed ~wandering away from Kelly's topic
>> into public education/ACT scores etc.
>> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>>
>> John,
>>
>> the ACT and SAT tests actually do reflect how many people will
>> perform in college, often more so than the grades they get in high
>> school. Do they work for everyone? no, but for most people, they
>> seem to work. if they didn't, and colleges were consistently getting
>> poor performers with good numbers, they would either stop using the
>> tests as entrance criteria, or change the tests.
>>
>> There is also a big difference to the ACT/SAT and the B.S. tests that
>> the no child left behind program is pushing. I think, to get back to
>> what lee was saying, that if you look at those districts or schools
>> where the ACT scores are the highest, you will also find the best
>> schools, where teachers actually do teach labs in physics, chem and
>> bio. You will find schools were art is not a one day a week affair.
>> you will find teachers who are given the resources to succeed. you
>> will also often find high property taxes and high teacher salaries,
>> and a greater number of teachers like yourself who actually give a
>> damn.
>>
>> most importantly, however for any elementary or secondary school
>> teacher, you will find parents who are engaged in their children's
>> education.
>>
>> -jon
>>
>>
>> jon byler
>> 3-D Building Coordinator
>> Art Department
>> Auburn University, AL 36849
>>
>> On Aug 13, 2008, at 9:34 PM, John Post wrote:
>>
>>> Lee,
>>>
>>> I am surprised to see you quoting ACT scores as any measure of the
>>> quality of a school district or educational experience. But I do
>>> agree that resources like good teachers with good salaries and ample
>>> budgets are more likely to produce a quality educational experience
>>> for kids than schools without these things.
>>>
>>> Here's a min-rant about standardized testing which then evolves
>>> into a
>>> few other topics...
>>>
>>> ACT scores are just a way for colleges to easily sort out the
>>> applications they get. Instead of actually learning about a
>>> candidate
>>> for the school they just look at some kid's numbers and decide
>>> whether
>>> or not he/she gets in. At least in the arts, schools often look at
>>> student portfolios instead of numbers.
>>>
>>> Why do students take the ACT? So they can get into college of
>>> course.
>>>
>>> All of our education system is designed to teach kids how to pass
>>> tests so they can get into college. It's like a giant freezer
>>> method. Here, put all this information in your brain when you
>>> are in
>>> 6th grade so you can pull it out and use it when you get to college.
>>> You won't actually have to demonstrate your understanding of what
>>> you
>>> learned, you can just show us by filling in the correct bubbles on a
>>> test sheet.
>>>
>>> We are always teaching kids what they are going to need to know for
>>> the next level, and the biggest next level of all is college. Why
>>> don't we ever teach them about stuff that they are interested in
>>> based
>>> on the age they are at right now?
>>>
>>> This year my son learned about Boyle's law of gasses in science.
>>> The
>>> teacher taught this by having the kids read about it from their
>>> science text, I am sure they were all riveted. A good teacher could
>>> bring this scientific law to life using props and doing experiments
>>> (12 year old boys know alot about gas), but when I asked my son's
>>> teacher about it, he said he didn't have time to do many experiments
>>> because he had to get through all of the curriculum. WTF?
>>>
>>> That's like saying I don't have time to really teach the kids
>>> because
>>> I am too busy getting through the curriculum.
>>>
>>> Of course this is all predicated on the assumption that he will need
>>> to know this to get into college so let's make sure we just jam
>>> it in
>>> his little freezer.
>>>
>>> The best treatise I ever read on education was written by an auto-
>>> mechanic. It's from Tom Magliozzi of the famous Click and Clack
>>> Tappet Brothers of NPR. You can read it here...
>>>
>>> http://www.cartalk.com/content/rant/r-rlast15.html
>>>
>>> As far as curriculum guides go, after reading it, I usually throw
>>> mine
>>> out. The schools I have worked for hired me because I am an artist
>>> and teacher. If an artist can't teach kids how to make art, who
>>> can?
>>> Most of the curriculum guides I have read are based on the principle
>>> "a mile wide and an inch deep". Let's just expose the little
>>> guys to
>>> a little of everything in the hopes that some of it sticks. My
>>> dad (a
>>> truck driver) had this to say about that theory "if you throw enough
>>> shit at the wall some of it is bound to stick".
>>>
>>> In my district some teachers feel that since the curriculum guide
>>> has
>>> weaving in it, that they must do a weaving project. So they do
>>> these
>>> paper strip weaving projects instead of actually weaving a basket
>>> or a
>>> rug or anything with real fibers. The kids usually throw them out
>>> before they even hit the hallway. So in theory the kids have met
>>> the
>>> curriculum and done a weaving project, but how much did they
>>> value it?
>>>
>>> If you make something in clay with a kid, the kids are always asking
>>> when they are going to get it back. I had a grandmother of a
>>> kindergarten student come in one time and show me the pinch pot she
>>> made when she was an elementary student. I asked her if she had any
>>> of her other school work from her elementary school days and it
>>> turned
>>> out the only thing she kept from 7 years at the elementary level was
>>> the tiny pot. It's amazing the effect that one little lump of clay
>>> can have on someone.
>>>
>>> The way I teach wouldn't work for every teacher, it really just
>>> suits
>>> me and my style, but here are some of my guiding principles...
>>>
>>> ~If I am not super pumped up about the lesson I am teaching, the
>>> kids
>>> won't be either. I have got to want to learn about it and do it as
>>> much as they do.
>>>
>>> ~Only work with authentic art materials. Drawing media, watercolor,
>>> tempera, clay and glazes. No milk cartons, no glitter, no wiggly
>>> eyes, no holiday art -ever. The kids need to work out 2-D and 3-D
>>> problems just like real artists do. I once heard one kid say to
>>> a new
>>> kid "In art class, first Mr. Post teaches us how to make a painting
>>> about something and then he teaches us how to make a sculpture about
>>> it." I never spelled it out like that for this kid, he just
>>> observed
>>> how things work relating to the way I delivered the curriculum.
>>>
>>> ~ALWAYS tell the kids the goal of each lesson. If they are learning
>>> about contrast, variety, cool colors or composition, tell them how
>>> they can show what they learned in their art work.
>>>
>>> ~Leave room in each lesson for the kids to embellish and add
>>> their own
>>> personality. As long as the kid has met the main goal of the
>>> assignment he/she is free to make other parts of it their own.
>>>
>>> I am not advocating that anyone else needs to take my approach to
>>> teaching or that because I do it this way that the way they are
>>> doing
>>> it isn't valid for them. Teaching is ultimately about people and
>>> relationships. I am an artist because I met a painter named Tom
>>> Parrish when I was in the last of the three different art programs I
>>> tried. If not for him, I probably would have given up on the
>>> arts. I
>>> loved his lectures about things that art students should do to
>>> become
>>> artists. It wasn't the painting curriculum that made me want to
>>> be a
>>> painter, it was the passion for painting that Tom Parrish
>>> delivered in
>>> his presentations and critiques.
>>>
>>> Can you tell I have a sinus infection and am spending more time
>>> on the
>>> computer than in the studio because of the achy-all-over feeling?
>>>
>>>
>>> John Post
>>> Sterling Heights, Michigan
>>>
>>> :: cone 6 glaze website :: http://www.johnpost.us
>>> :: elementary art website :: http://www.wemakeart.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 13, 2008, at 7:46 PM, Lee Love wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I just heard that the top States in the ACT testing are:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Minnesota
>>>> 2. Iowa
>>>> 3. Wisconsin
>>>>
>>>> Bet they all pay more than $45,000 at 25 years.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Got Game? Win Prizes in the Windows Live Hotmail Mobile Summer
> Games Trivia Contest
> http://www.gowindowslive.com/summergames?ocid=TXT_TAGHM
Lee Love on fri 15 aug 08
On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 10:01 PM, James F wrote:
> Well said, John. So if one were to boil it down, perhaps the ACT is ultimately a measure of how
I believe the issue I brought up was wondering if there was a
correlation between teacher's pay and ACT outcomes. For example, you
never hear of Texas scoring high in them and Taylor said they pay
teachers pretty poorly.
You know a society by what it spends its money on.
--
Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
http://claycraft.blogspot.com/
"Let the beauty we love be what we do.
There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground." --Rumi
May Luk on fri 15 aug 08
Hello teachers:
With the Olympics going on and all that, you guys probably missed the pbs s=
how on Chinese high school students taking the public 'exit exam'. There ar=
e different types of pressure and expectations coming from parents if you a=
re Chinese.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/episodes/china-prep/introduction/810/
Regards
May
Kings County, NY
[...]
> That probably has a lot to do with parental interaction,
> too. [...]
> jon byler
> 3-D Building Coordinator
> Art Department
> Auburn University, AL 36849
=0A=0ASend instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yaho=
o.com
Taylor Hendrix on tue 19 aug 08
Hey Lee:
I wouldn't be surprised if one of the high possitive correlations were
between ACT scores and income level of parents rather than money spent
on teachers. I've no idea though.
Taylor, in Rockport TX, where he spends his money on Dr Pepper.
On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 5:02 AM, Lee Love wrote:
...
> I believe the issue I brought up was wondering if there was a
> correlation between teacher's pay and ACT outcomes. For example, you
> never hear of Texas scoring high in them and Taylor said they pay
> teachers pretty poorly.
>
> You know a society by what it spends its money on.
...
| |
|
