Ivor and Olive Lewis on tue 19 aug 08
Dear Caleb Smith,
Have you tried Sodium Mono-Glutamate ? This is fairly cheap and can be
obtained from oriental food wholesalers.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.
Joseph Herbert on wed 20 aug 08
I am not advocating use of lye during firing of pottery. I am posing a
question.
I have often wondered why sodium hydroxide solution is not an alternative to
sodium carbonate solution. It is dangerous to handle and carelessness will
result in bad chemical burns, as in removing your skin or blindness.
However, it is a soluble source of sodium that can be mixed to high
concentrations and it is cheap.
This is lye. It is used to make soap and it will make soap out of you, if
you let it. An ample supply of sodium bicarbonate in water should be on
hand.
Sodium carbonate is a fairly strong base and sodium hydroxide is even
stronger.
A concentrated solution of sodium hydroxide has more sodium ions per 100 ml
of fluid than does sodium carbonate solution. Salt firing types often
complain that the use of sodium carbonate does not give them the results
they desire because the carbonate ion is not as active in the kiln
atmosphere as is chlorine. The hydroxyl ion probably does not last long in
the kiln atmosphere but would be pretty active while it lasted. Might make
up for the lack of chlorine.
From years of reading the correspondence on Clayart, I have come to suspect
a certain percentage of clayworkers are not particularly risk averse. Given
that, and in a discussion where TSP and MSG were suggested as possible
sodium sources during firing, I wonder that I have never run across a
description of sodium hydroxide as a firing adjunct.
By the way, the industrial hazard rating of sodium carbonate is 2; the
rating of sodium hydroxide is 4, the highest rating. It really is bad
stuff.
If you hung a couple of chicken carcasses in the kiln flue just before the
MSG insertion, the whole neighborhood would be out looking for Wonton Soup.
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Caleb smith
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 7:33 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Soda Alternatives
Hi Marian,
Thanks for the extensive response. I must admit I have a bit of a mad
scientist approach to ceramics sometimes, so thanks for bringing it back
around to the safety aspects. I fully intend to be careful with my
experiments. All of my current tests are done in saggars, with low volumes
of material. I am a pool technician and handle some pretty toxic stuff, so
caution is always in the equation. The TSP and Sodium Bisulfate experiments
were designed with potential explosions in mind, as well as possible
air-born toxins. I must admit I hadn't checked out the MSDS for MSG but
I'll definitely look it over. From what you say, it sounds as though I will
need to deliver MSG in a solution of some sort. I'll try to be careful, and
thanks for the warning.
Best,
Caleb
> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 17:02:57 -0500
> From: neoncat@FLASH.NET
> Subject: Re: Soda Alternatives
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>
> Oh, I hate to be a killjoy. But...
> monosodium glutamate (MSG) is an organic chemical. As such it presents
some
> special issues if you want to use it for salt firing or store it around
the
> studio.
>
> MSDS resources suggest that monosodium glutamate be kept in tightly closed
> containers in cool, dry, specially ventilated areas, the idea being to
avoid
> dust formation and to keep the MSG away from ignition sources and static
> electricity. You do not want to create clouds of dust, especially in
> confined or unventilated spaces, they may form an explosive mixture with
air
> and any source of ignition (flame or spark) will cause a fire or
explosion.
> Fine dusts are particularly worrisome - they may burn rapidly and fiercely
> when ignited. MSG dust can also be charged electrostatically by pouring,
> transporting it, or by creating turbulence during kiln salting. If you
> suspect your MSG storage container is hot you should not even approach it
> until it cools. You'll also want to keep your stored MSG safe from
> contamination by oxidizing agents (nitrates, oxidizing acids, chlorine
> bleach, etc.) so that ignition does not result. If you spill your MSG
clean
> it up promptly.
>
> So, if you plan to salt your kiln with monosodium glutamate please be
aware
> that a flash fire or explosion may occur before or during salting. It
should
> be noted that MSG has much lower melting and decomposition temperatures
than
> you salt-firers are use to dealing with using more standard chemicals in
> your specialty. Sure combustion or decomposition of MSG will create
> desirable sodium oxide, but these processes will also generate oxides of
> nitrogen and ammonia, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, and other
irritating
> and toxic fumes and gases.
>
> Melting Point: 200 - 2320 C (393 - 4500 F)
> Decomposition Temperature: 165 - 1900 C (329 - 3740 F)
>
> See two very short, interesting, and impressive videos of dust explosions:
>
http://www.teachersdomain.org/resources/lsps07/sci/phys/matter/expldust/inde
> x.html
> (click "view" and watch #'s 2 and 3)
>
> Personal safety concerns:
> MSG may cause eye irritation. If you wear soft contact lenses they may
> absorb and concentrate MSG. MSG may cause skin irritation and can be
> absorbed through the skin. Sensitization may result in allergic dermatitis
> with symptoms of rash, itching, hives or swelling of the extremities. MSG
> may cause respiratory tract irritation and is a known respiratory and skin
> sensitiser. Respiratory sensitization may result in allergic or asthma
like
> responses, including coughing and minor breathing difficulties to
bronchitis
> complete with wheezing and gasping. MSG is known to bind to the
> N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) neuroreceptors (yes there is some scientific
> basis for the MSG syndrome that affects certain individuals who eat
Chinese
> and other MSG enhanced foods).
>
> Marian
> Neon-Cat Ceramics
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On Behalf Of Caleb smith
> Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 9:47 AM
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Re: Soda Alternatives
>
> Ivor Lewis,
> MSG is a good thought and I'll try it. Similar in pH to a carbonate but
> with a bunch of different tag along elements. Thanks for the suggestion.
> Best
> Caleb
> Lake Tahoe, California
_________________________________________________________________
See what people are saying about Windows Live. Check out featured posts.
http://www.windowslive.com/connect?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_connect2_082008=
Caleb smith on wed 20 aug 08
Ivor Lewis=2C
MSG is a good thought and I'll try it. Similar in pH to a carbonate but wi=
th a bunch of different tag along elements. Thanks for the suggestion.
Best
Caleb
Lake Tahoe=2C California
> Date: Tue=2C 19 Aug 2008 15:53:06 +0930
> From: iandol@WESTNET.COM.AU
> Subject: Soda Alternatives
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>=20
> Dear Caleb Smith=2C
> Have you tried Sodium Mono-Glutamate ? This is fairly cheap and can be
> obtained from oriental food wholesalers.
> Best regards=2C
> Ivor Lewis.
> Redhill=2C
> South Australia.
_________________________________________________________________
Get ideas on sharing photos from people like you. Find new ways to share.
http://www.windowslive.com/explore/photogallery/posts?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_P=
hoto_Gallery_082008=
Neon-Cat on wed 20 aug 08
Oh, I hate to be a killjoy. But...
monosodium glutamate (MSG) is an organic chemical. As such it presents some
special issues if you want to use it for salt firing or store it around the
studio.
MSDS resources suggest that monosodium glutamate be kept in tightly closed
containers in cool, dry, specially ventilated areas, the idea being to avoid
dust formation and to keep the MSG away from ignition sources and static
electricity. You do not want to create clouds of dust, especially in
confined or unventilated spaces, they may form an explosive mixture with air
and any source of ignition (flame or spark) will cause a fire or explosion.
Fine dusts are particularly worrisome - they may burn rapidly and fiercely
when ignited. MSG dust can also be charged electrostatically by pouring,
transporting it, or by creating turbulence during kiln salting. If you
suspect your MSG storage container is hot you should not even approach it
until it cools. You'll also want to keep your stored MSG safe from
contamination by oxidizing agents (nitrates, oxidizing acids, chlorine
bleach, etc.) so that ignition does not result. If you spill your MSG clean
it up promptly.
So, if you plan to salt your kiln with monosodium glutamate please be aware
that a flash fire or explosion may occur before or during salting. It should
be noted that MSG has much lower melting and decomposition temperatures than
you salt-firers are use to dealing with using more standard chemicals in
your specialty. Sure combustion or decomposition of MSG will create
desirable sodium oxide, but these processes will also generate oxides of
nitrogen and ammonia, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, and other irritating
and toxic fumes and gases.
Melting Point: 200 - 2320 C (393 - 4500 F)
Decomposition Temperature: 165 - 1900 C (329 - 3740 F)
See two very short, interesting, and impressive videos of dust explosions:
http://www.teachersdomain.org/resources/lsps07/sci/phys/matter/expldust/inde
x.html
(click "view" and watch #'s 2 and 3)
Personal safety concerns:
MSG may cause eye irritation. If you wear soft contact lenses they may
absorb and concentrate MSG. MSG may cause skin irritation and can be
absorbed through the skin. Sensitization may result in allergic dermatitis
with symptoms of rash, itching, hives or swelling of the extremities. MSG
may cause respiratory tract irritation and is a known respiratory and skin
sensitiser. Respiratory sensitization may result in allergic or asthma like
responses, including coughing and minor breathing difficulties to bronchitis
complete with wheezing and gasping. MSG is known to bind to the
N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) neuroreceptors (yes there is some scientific
basis for the MSG syndrome that affects certain individuals who eat Chinese
and other MSG enhanced foods).
Marian
Neon-Cat Ceramics
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On Behalf Of Caleb smith
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 9:47 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Soda Alternatives
Ivor Lewis,
MSG is a good thought and I'll try it. Similar in pH to a carbonate but
with a bunch of different tag along elements. Thanks for the suggestion.
Best
Caleb
Lake Tahoe, California
Caleb smith on wed 20 aug 08
Hi Marian=2C=20
Thanks for the extensive response. I must admit I have a bit of a mad scie=
ntist approach to ceramics sometimes=2C so thanks for bringing it back arou=
nd to the safety aspects. I fully intend to be careful with my experiment=
s. All of my current tests are done in saggars=2C with low volumes of mat=
erial. I am a pool technician and handle some pretty toxic stuff=2C so cau=
tion is always in the equation. The TSP and Sodium Bisulfate experiments w=
ere designed with potential explosions in mind=2C as well as possible air-b=
orn toxins. I must admit I hadn't checked out the MSDS for MSG but I'll =
definitely look it over. From what you say=2C it sounds as though I will n=
eed to deliver MSG in a solution of some sort. I'll try to be careful=2C a=
nd thanks for the warning.
Best=2C=20
Caleb
> Date: Wed=2C 20 Aug 2008 17:02:57 -0500
> From: neoncat@FLASH.NET
> Subject: Re: Soda Alternatives
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>=20
> Oh=2C I hate to be a killjoy. But...
> monosodium glutamate (MSG) is an organic chemical. As such it presents so=
me
> special issues if you want to use it for salt firing or store it around t=
he
> studio.
>=20
> MSDS resources suggest that monosodium glutamate be kept in tightly close=
d
> containers in cool=2C dry=2C specially ventilated areas=2C the idea being=
to avoid
> dust formation and to keep the MSG away from ignition sources and static
> electricity. You do not want to create clouds of dust=2C especially in
> confined or unventilated spaces=2C they may form an explosive mixture wit=
h air
> and any source of ignition (flame or spark) will cause a fire or explosio=
n.
> Fine dusts are particularly worrisome - they may burn rapidly and fiercel=
y
> when ignited. MSG dust can also be charged electrostatically by pouring=
=2C
> transporting it=2C or by creating turbulence during kiln salting. If you
> suspect your MSG storage container is hot you should not even approach it
> until it cools. You'll also want to keep your stored MSG safe from
> contamination by oxidizing agents (nitrates=2C oxidizing acids=2C chlorin=
e
> bleach=2C etc.) so that ignition does not result. If you spill your MSG c=
lean
> it up promptly.
>=20
> So=2C if you plan to salt your kiln with monosodium glutamate please be a=
ware
> that a flash fire or explosion may occur before or during salting. It sho=
uld
> be noted that MSG has much lower melting and decomposition temperatures t=
han
> you salt-firers are use to dealing with using more standard chemicals in
> your specialty. Sure combustion or decomposition of MSG will create
> desirable sodium oxide=2C but these processes will also generate oxides o=
f
> nitrogen and ammonia=2C carbon monoxide=2C carbon dioxide=2C and other ir=
ritating
> and toxic fumes and gases.
>=20
> Melting Point: 200 - 2320 C (393 - 4500 F)
> Decomposition Temperature: 165 - 1900 C (329 - 3740 F)
>=20
> See two very short=2C interesting=2C and impressive videos of dust explos=
ions:
> http://www.teachersdomain.org/resources/lsps07/sci/phys/matter/expldust/i=
nde
> x.html
> (click "view" and watch #'s 2 and 3)
>=20
> Personal safety concerns:
> MSG may cause eye irritation. If you wear soft contact lenses they may
> absorb and concentrate MSG. MSG may cause skin irritation and can be
> absorbed through the skin. Sensitization may result in allergic dermatiti=
s
> with symptoms of rash=2C itching=2C hives or swelling of the extremities.=
MSG
> may cause respiratory tract irritation and is a known respiratory and ski=
n
> sensitiser. Respiratory sensitization may result in allergic or asthma li=
ke
> responses=2C including coughing and minor breathing difficulties to bronc=
hitis
> complete with wheezing and gasping. MSG is known to bind to the
> N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) neuroreceptors (yes there is some scientific
> basis for the MSG syndrome that affects certain individuals who eat Chine=
se
> and other MSG enhanced foods).
>=20
> Marian
> Neon-Cat Ceramics
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On Behalf Of Caleb smith
> Sent: Wednesday=2C August 20=2C 2008 9:47 AM
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Re: Soda Alternatives
>=20
> Ivor Lewis=2C
> MSG is a good thought and I'll try it. Similar in pH to a carbonate but
> with a bunch of different tag along elements. Thanks for the suggestion.
> Best
> Caleb
> Lake Tahoe=2C California
_________________________________________________________________
See what people are saying about Windows Live. Check out featured posts.
http://www.windowslive.com/connect?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_connect2_082008=
Ivor and Olive Lewis on thu 21 aug 08
<organic chemical. As such it presents some pecial issues if you want
to use it for salt firing or store it around the studio.>>
Dear Marian,
I should have qualified that proposition by suggesting that it be
dissolved in water and sprayed into the kiln, as is the way used by
some workers when applying Sodium Carbonate.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.
Caleb smith on thu 21 aug 08
Jon=2C
My own thinking on the matter is very much in the same direction. I have a=
few potassium and lithium experiments in mind (maybe even some zinc tests)=
. I'll start with saggars as always. No pictures yet but they are in the =
works along with a website. Unfortunately I have several cords of wood to =
split and stack before that happens. Hank Murrow seems to be the one with =
the experience here.
Dinnertime in California=2C
Caleb
> Date: Thu=2C 21 Aug 2008 15:02:37 -0500
> From: jebyler2@GMAIL.COM
> Subject: Re: Soda Alternatives
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>=20
> just out of curiosity=2C would potassium salts work as well as sodium =20
> salts in terms of the effects they have on the final pieces? is =20
> there a reason no one ever talks of a "potassium vapor" kiln? Since =20
> the alkaline elements (at least Kn and Na) are often calculated =20
> together in glaze recipes=2C maybe this is also worth a try. I suppose =
=20
> to get a really good experiment=2C one would have to start with a =20
> fresh=2C new=2C clean kiln in order to see what potassium alone would do=
=2C =20
> since there is residual sodium on the walls of the kiln after a soda =20
> firing.
>=20
> anyway=2C keep up posted. Caleb=2C did you have any pictures of =20
> results posted anywhere? I can't remember now whether you said =20
> anything about that or not.
>=20
> best=2C
>=20
> jon
>=20
> jon byler
> 3-D Building Coordinator
> Art Department
> Auburn University=2C AL 36849
>=20
> On Aug 21=2C 2008=2C at 9:47 AM=2C Caleb smith wrote:
>=20
> > Joe=2C
> > I hope that I'm at least a little risk averse. Though I have to =20
> > admit that I had already considered lye. I haven't worked with it =20
> > because it is fairly difficult to acquire. Many hardware and =20
> > grocery stores no longer carry it. It's also kind of expensive.
> > Perhaps I've done my reading wrong=2C but isn't a marginal amount of =20
> > sodium hydroxide part of the soda firing process anyway? I have =20
> > read that air-born
> > lye produced from soda firing actually makes soda a more dangerous =20
> > process than normal salt firing (this debate continues=2C I =20
> > believe). Many of the gases released during a sodium firing =20
> > neutralize upon contact with the air outside the kiln=2C but lye is =20
> > not one of them. Perhaps this is part of the reason I haven't =20
> > pursued it. My uncle also drank some lye as a child and still =20
> > takes half the medicine cabinet every day just to swallow. Thus =20
> > lye has some nasty memories for me. But for the sake of a wide =20
> > spectrum=2C I may cautiously include it in my tests. Thanks for the =20
> > suggestion. Any other ideas are welcome.
> > Too many tests! I'm starting to run out of room in the kiln!
> > Caleb
> >
> >
> >> Date: Wed=2C 20 Aug 2008 22:47:01 -0600
> >> From: Joseph.Herbert@ATT.NET
> >> Subject: Re: Soda Alternatives
> >> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> >>
> >> I am not advocating use of lye during firing of pottery. I am =20
> >> posing a
> >> question.
> >>
> >> I have often wondered why sodium hydroxide solution is not an =20
> >> alternative to
> >> sodium carbonate solution. It is dangerous to handle and =20
> >> carelessness will
> >> result in bad chemical burns=2C as in removing your skin or blindness.
> >> However=2C it is a soluble source of sodium that can be mixed to high
> >> concentrations and it is cheap.
> >>
> >> This is lye. It is used to make soap and it will make soap out of =20
> >> you=2C if
> >> you let it. An ample supply of sodium bicarbonate in water should =20
> >> be on
> >> hand.
> >>
> >> Sodium carbonate is a fairly strong base and sodium hydroxide is even
> >> stronger.
> >>
> >> A concentrated solution of sodium hydroxide has more sodium ions =20
> >> per 100 ml
> >> of fluid than does sodium carbonate solution. Salt firing types =20
> >> often
> >> complain that the use of sodium carbonate does not give them the =20
> >> results
> >> they desire because the carbonate ion is not as active in the kiln
> >> atmosphere as is chlorine. The hydroxyl ion probably does not =20
> >> last long in
> >> the kiln atmosphere but would be pretty active while it lasted. =20
> >> Might make
> >> up for the lack of chlorine.
> >>
> >> From years of reading the correspondence on Clayart=2C I have come =20
> >> to suspect
> >> a certain percentage of clayworkers are not particularly risk =20
> >> averse. Given
> >> that=2C and in a discussion where TSP and MSG were suggested as =20
> >> possible
> >> sodium sources during firing=2C I wonder that I have never run across =
a
> >> description of sodium hydroxide as a firing adjunct.
> >>
> >> By the way=2C the industrial hazard rating of sodium carbonate is 2=3B=
=20
> >> the
> >> rating of sodium hydroxide is 4=2C the highest rating. It really is =
=20
> >> bad
> >> stuff.
> >>
> >> If you hung a couple of chicken carcasses in the kiln flue just =20
> >> before the
> >> MSG insertion=2C the whole neighborhood would be out looking for =20
> >> Wonton Soup.
> >>
> >> Joe
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Caleb =20
> >> smith
> >> Sent: Wednesday=2C August 20=2C 2008 7:33 PM
> >> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> >> Subject: Re: Soda Alternatives
> >>
> >> Hi Marian=2C
> >> Thanks for the extensive response. I must admit I have a bit of a =20
> >> mad
> >> scientist approach to ceramics sometimes=2C so thanks for bringing =20
> >> it back
> >> around to the safety aspects. I fully intend to be careful with my
> >> experiments. All of my current tests are done in saggars=2C with =20
> >> low volumes
> >> of material. I am a pool technician and handle some pretty toxic =20
> >> stuff=2C so
> >> caution is always in the equation. The TSP and Sodium Bisulfate =20
> >> experiments
> >> were designed with potential explosions in mind=2C as well as possible
> >> air-born toxins. I must admit I hadn't checked out the MSDS for =20
> >> MSG but
> >> I'll definitely look it over. From what you say=2C it sounds as =20
> >> though I will
> >> need to deliver MSG in a solution of some sort. I'll try to be =20
> >> careful=2C and
> >> thanks for the warning.
> >> Best=2C
> >> Caleb
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> Date: Wed=2C 20 Aug 2008 17:02:57 -0500
> >>> From: neoncat@FLASH.NET
> >>> Subject: Re: Soda Alternatives
> >>> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> >>>
> >>> Oh=2C I hate to be a killjoy. But...
> >>> monosodium glutamate (MSG) is an organic chemical. As such it =20
> >>> presents
> >> some
> >>> special issues if you want to use it for salt firing or store it =20
> >>> around
> >> the
> >>> studio.
> >>>
> >>> MSDS resources suggest that monosodium glutamate be kept in =20
> >>> tightly closed
> >>> containers in cool=2C dry=2C specially ventilated areas=2C the idea =
=20
> >>> being to
> >> avoid
> >>> dust formation and to keep the MSG away from ignition sources and =20
> >>> static
> >>> electricity. You do not want to create clouds of dust=2C especially i=
n
> >>> confined or unventilated spaces=2C they may form an explosive =20
> >>> mixture with
> >> air
> >>> and any source of ignition (flame or spark) will cause a fire or
> >> explosion.
> >>> Fine dusts are particularly worrisome - they may burn rapidly and =20
> >>> fiercely
> >>> when ignited. MSG dust can also be charged electrostatically by =20
> >>> pouring=2C
> >>> transporting it=2C or by creating turbulence during kiln salting. =20
> >>> If you
> >>> suspect your MSG storage container is hot you should not even =20
> >>> approach it
> >>> until it cools. You'll also want to keep your stored MSG safe from
> >>> contamination by oxidizing agents (nitrates=2C oxidizing acids=2C =20
> >>> chlorine
> >>> bleach=2C etc.) so that ignition does not result. If you spill your =
=20
> >>> MSG
> >> clean
> >>> it up promptly.
> >>>
> >>> So=2C if you plan to salt your kiln with monosodium glutamate =20
> >>> please be
> >> aware
> >>> that a flash fire or explosion may occur before or during =20
> >>> salting. It
> >> should
> >>> be noted that MSG has much lower melting and decomposition =20
> >>> temperatures
> >> than
> >>> you salt-firers are use to dealing with using more standard =20
> >>> chemicals in
> >>> your specialty. Sure combustion or decomposition of MSG will create
> >>> desirable sodium oxide=2C but these processes will also generate =20
> >>> oxides of
> >>> nitrogen and ammonia=2C carbon monoxide=2C carbon dioxide=2C and othe=
r
> >> irritating
> >>> and toxic fumes and gases.
> >>>
> >>> Melting Point: 200 - 2320 C (393 - 4500 F)
> >>> Decomposition Temperature: 165 - 1900 C (329 - 3740 F)
> >>>
> >>> See two very short=2C interesting=2C and impressive videos of dust =20
> >>> explosions:
> >>>
> >> http://www.teachersdomain.org/resources/lsps07/sci/phys/matter/=20
> >> expldust/inde
> >>> x.html
> >>> (click "view" and watch #'s 2 and 3)
> >>>
> >>> Personal safety concerns:
> >>> MSG may cause eye irritation. If you wear soft contact lenses =20
> >>> they may
> >>> absorb and concentrate MSG. MSG may cause skin irritation and can be
> >>> absorbed through the skin. Sensitization may result in allergic =20
> >>> dermatitis
> >>> with symptoms of rash=2C itching=2C hives or swelling of the =20
> >>> extremities. MSG
> >>> may cause respiratory tract irritation and is a known respiratory =20
> >>> and skin
> >>> sensitiser. Respiratory sensitization may result in allergic or =20
> >>> asthma
> >> like
> >>> responses=2C including coughing and minor breathing difficulties to
> >> bronchitis
> >>> complete with wheezing and gasping. MSG is known to bind to the
> >>> N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) neuroreceptors (yes there is some =20
> >>> scientific
> >>> basis for the MSG syndrome that affects certain individuals who eat
> >> Chinese
> >>> and other MSG enhanced foods).
> >>>
> >>> Marian
> >>> Neon-Cat Ceramics
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On Behalf Of Caleb =20
> >>> smith
> >>> Sent: Wednesday=2C August 20=2C 2008 9:47 AM
> >>> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> >>> Subject: Re: Soda Alternatives
> >>>
> >>> Ivor Lewis=2C
> >>> MSG is a good thought and I'll try it. Similar in pH to a =20
> >>> carbonate but
> >>> with a bunch of different tag along elements. Thanks for the =20
> >>> suggestion.
> >>> Best
> >>> Caleb
> >>> Lake Tahoe=2C California
> >>
> >> _________________________________________________________________
> >> See what people are saying about Windows Live. Check out featured =20
> >> posts.
> >> http://www.windowslive.com/connect?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_connect2_082008=
=3D
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Be the filmmaker you always wanted to be=97learn how to burn a DVD =20
> > with Windows=AE.
> > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108588797/direct/01/
_________________________________________________________________
Get thousands of games on your PC=2C your mobile phone=2C and the web with =
Windows=AE.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108588800/direct/01/=
May Luk on thu 21 aug 08
Hello all;
Are you guys talking about Ajinomoto in Asian kitchens? Interesting!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajinomoto
May
it sounds as though I will need to deliver MSG in a
> solution of some sort. I'll try to be careful, and
> thanks for the warning.
> Best,=20
> Caleb
>=20
=0A=0ASend instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yaho=
o.com
Caleb smith on thu 21 aug 08
Joe=2C
I hope that I'm at least a little risk averse. Though I have to admit that=
I had already considered lye. I haven't worked with it because it is fair=
ly difficult to acquire. Many hardware and grocery stores no longer carry =
it. It's also kind of expensive.
Perhaps I've done my reading wrong=2C but isn't a marginal amount of sodium=
hydroxide part of the soda firing process anyway? I have read that air-bo=
rn
lye produced from soda firing actually makes soda a more dangerous process =
than normal salt firing (this debate continues=2C I believe). Many of the =
gases released during a sodium firing neutralize upon contact with the air =
outside the kiln=2C but lye is not one of them. Perhaps this is part of th=
e reason I haven't pursued it. My uncle also drank some lye as a child and=
still takes half the medicine cabinet every day just to swallow. Thus lye=
has some nasty memories for me. But for the sake of a wide spectrum=2C I =
may cautiously include it in my tests. Thanks for the suggestion. Any oth=
er ideas are welcome.
Too many tests! I'm starting to run out of room in the kiln!
Caleb
> Date: Wed=2C 20 Aug 2008 22:47:01 -0600
> From: Joseph.Herbert@ATT.NET
> Subject: Re: Soda Alternatives
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>=20
> I am not advocating use of lye during firing of pottery. I am posing a
> question.
>=20
> I have often wondered why sodium hydroxide solution is not an alternative=
to
> sodium carbonate solution. It is dangerous to handle and carelessness wi=
ll
> result in bad chemical burns=2C as in removing your skin or blindness.
> However=2C it is a soluble source of sodium that can be mixed to high
> concentrations and it is cheap.
>=20
> This is lye. It is used to make soap and it will make soap out of you=2C=
if
> you let it. An ample supply of sodium bicarbonate in water should be on
> hand.
>=20
> Sodium carbonate is a fairly strong base and sodium hydroxide is even
> stronger.
>=20
> A concentrated solution of sodium hydroxide has more sodium ions per 100 =
ml
> of fluid than does sodium carbonate solution. Salt firing types often
> complain that the use of sodium carbonate does not give them the results
> they desire because the carbonate ion is not as active in the kiln
> atmosphere as is chlorine. The hydroxyl ion probably does not last long =
in
> the kiln atmosphere but would be pretty active while it lasted. Might ma=
ke
> up for the lack of chlorine.
>=20
> From years of reading the correspondence on Clayart=2C I have come to sus=
pect
> a certain percentage of clayworkers are not particularly risk averse. Gi=
ven
> that=2C and in a discussion where TSP and MSG were suggested as possible
> sodium sources during firing=2C I wonder that I have never run across a
> description of sodium hydroxide as a firing adjunct.
>=20
> By the way=2C the industrial hazard rating of sodium carbonate is 2=3B th=
e
> rating of sodium hydroxide is 4=2C the highest rating. It really is bad
> stuff.
>=20
> If you hung a couple of chicken carcasses in the kiln flue just before th=
e
> MSG insertion=2C the whole neighborhood would be out looking for Wonton S=
oup.
>=20
> Joe
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Caleb smith
> Sent: Wednesday=2C August 20=2C 2008 7:33 PM
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Re: Soda Alternatives
>=20
> Hi Marian=2C
> Thanks for the extensive response. I must admit I have a bit of a mad
> scientist approach to ceramics sometimes=2C so thanks for bringing it bac=
k
> around to the safety aspects. I fully intend to be careful with my
> experiments. All of my current tests are done in saggars=2C with low vo=
lumes
> of material. I am a pool technician and handle some pretty toxic stuff=
=2C so
> caution is always in the equation. The TSP and Sodium Bisulfate experime=
nts
> were designed with potential explosions in mind=2C as well as possible
> air-born toxins. I must admit I hadn't checked out the MSDS for MSG bu=
t
> I'll definitely look it over. From what you say=2C it sounds as though I=
will
> need to deliver MSG in a solution of some sort. I'll try to be careful=
=2C and
> thanks for the warning.
> Best=2C
> Caleb
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > Date: Wed=2C 20 Aug 2008 17:02:57 -0500
> > From: neoncat@FLASH.NET
> > Subject: Re: Soda Alternatives
> > To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> >
> > Oh=2C I hate to be a killjoy. But...
> > monosodium glutamate (MSG) is an organic chemical. As such it presents
> some
> > special issues if you want to use it for salt firing or store it around
> the
> > studio.
> >
> > MSDS resources suggest that monosodium glutamate be kept in tightly clo=
sed
> > containers in cool=2C dry=2C specially ventilated areas=2C the idea bei=
ng to
> avoid
> > dust formation and to keep the MSG away from ignition sources and stati=
c
> > electricity. You do not want to create clouds of dust=2C especially in
> > confined or unventilated spaces=2C they may form an explosive mixture w=
ith
> air
> > and any source of ignition (flame or spark) will cause a fire or
> explosion.
> > Fine dusts are particularly worrisome - they may burn rapidly and fierc=
ely
> > when ignited. MSG dust can also be charged electrostatically by pouring=
=2C
> > transporting it=2C or by creating turbulence during kiln salting. If yo=
u
> > suspect your MSG storage container is hot you should not even approach =
it
> > until it cools. You'll also want to keep your stored MSG safe from
> > contamination by oxidizing agents (nitrates=2C oxidizing acids=2C chlor=
ine
> > bleach=2C etc.) so that ignition does not result. If you spill your MSG
> clean
> > it up promptly.
> >
> > So=2C if you plan to salt your kiln with monosodium glutamate please be
> aware
> > that a flash fire or explosion may occur before or during salting. It
> should
> > be noted that MSG has much lower melting and decomposition temperatures
> than
> > you salt-firers are use to dealing with using more standard chemicals i=
n
> > your specialty. Sure combustion or decomposition of MSG will create
> > desirable sodium oxide=2C but these processes will also generate oxides=
of
> > nitrogen and ammonia=2C carbon monoxide=2C carbon dioxide=2C and other
> irritating
> > and toxic fumes and gases.
> >
> > Melting Point: 200 - 2320 C (393 - 4500 F)
> > Decomposition Temperature: 165 - 1900 C (329 - 3740 F)
> >
> > See two very short=2C interesting=2C and impressive videos of dust expl=
osions:
> >
> http://www.teachersdomain.org/resources/lsps07/sci/phys/matter/expldust/i=
nde
> > x.html
> > (click "view" and watch #'s 2 and 3)
> >
> > Personal safety concerns:
> > MSG may cause eye irritation. If you wear soft contact lenses they may
> > absorb and concentrate MSG. MSG may cause skin irritation and can be
> > absorbed through the skin. Sensitization may result in allergic dermati=
tis
> > with symptoms of rash=2C itching=2C hives or swelling of the extremitie=
s. MSG
> > may cause respiratory tract irritation and is a known respiratory and s=
kin
> > sensitiser. Respiratory sensitization may result in allergic or asthma
> like
> > responses=2C including coughing and minor breathing difficulties to
> bronchitis
> > complete with wheezing and gasping. MSG is known to bind to the
> > N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) neuroreceptors (yes there is some scientifi=
c
> > basis for the MSG syndrome that affects certain individuals who eat
> Chinese
> > and other MSG enhanced foods).
> >
> > Marian
> > Neon-Cat Ceramics
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On Behalf Of Caleb smith
> > Sent: Wednesday=2C August 20=2C 2008 9:47 AM
> > To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> > Subject: Re: Soda Alternatives
> >
> > Ivor Lewis=2C
> > MSG is a good thought and I'll try it. Similar in pH to a carbonate bu=
t
> > with a bunch of different tag along elements. Thanks for the suggestio=
n.
> > Best
> > Caleb
> > Lake Tahoe=2C California
>=20
> _________________________________________________________________
> See what people are saying about Windows Live. Check out featured posts.
> http://www.windowslive.com/connect?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_connect2_082008=3D
_________________________________________________________________
Be the filmmaker you always wanted to be=97learn how to burn a DVD with Win=
dows=AE.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108588797/direct/01/=
Fredrick Paget on thu 21 aug 08
Another soda alternative is to take a step up in the periodic table
and investigate elements in the same group as sodium which share
similar chemical properties. First step up is potassium .
I have long wondered what potasium carbonate solution sprayed into
the kiln instead of sodium carbonate would do?
Carbonates are good because you only get the one element like sodium
(or potasium) instead of two if you use salt which is a chloride. It
has that chloride part that may make hydrochloric acid vapor in the
kiln. Organic compounds of sodium should work the same way as
carbonate but at far greater expense.
The carbonate or bicarbonate breaks down in the kiln to the element
's oxide and CO2 so that is not any worse than the fuel.
I know - the soda part makes bad smoke but far less than salt.
Next step up after potassium is rubidium and that would be very
expensive and I think toxic too. After that cesium.
A step down from sodium is lithium and I am not suggesting that as
the toxic effects are well known. There are more but you are getting
into radioactive elements there and non availability, expense, etc.
--
Fred Paget
Twin Dragon Studio
Mill Valley, CA, USA
fredrick@well.com
Charter Member Potters Council
jonathan byler on thu 21 aug 08
just out of curiosity, would potassium salts work as well as sodium =20
salts in terms of the effects they have on the final pieces? is =20
there a reason no one ever talks of a "potassium vapor" kiln? Since =20
the alkaline elements (at least Kn and Na) are often calculated =20
together in glaze recipes, maybe this is also worth a try. I suppose =20=
to get a really good experiment, one would have to start with a =20
fresh, new, clean kiln in order to see what potassium alone would do, =20=
since there is residual sodium on the walls of the kiln after a soda =20
firing.
anyway, keep up posted. Caleb, did you have any pictures of =20
results posted anywhere? I can't remember now whether you said =20
anything about that or not.
best,
jon
jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849
On Aug 21, 2008, at 9:47 AM, Caleb smith wrote:
> Joe,
> I hope that I'm at least a little risk averse. Though I have to =20
> admit that I had already considered lye. I haven't worked with it =20
> because it is fairly difficult to acquire. Many hardware and =20
> grocery stores no longer carry it. It's also kind of expensive.
> Perhaps I've done my reading wrong, but isn't a marginal amount of =20
> sodium hydroxide part of the soda firing process anyway? I have =20
> read that air-born
> lye produced from soda firing actually makes soda a more dangerous =20
> process than normal salt firing (this debate continues, I =20
> believe). Many of the gases released during a sodium firing =20
> neutralize upon contact with the air outside the kiln, but lye is =20
> not one of them. Perhaps this is part of the reason I haven't =20
> pursued it. My uncle also drank some lye as a child and still =20
> takes half the medicine cabinet every day just to swallow. Thus =20
> lye has some nasty memories for me. But for the sake of a wide =20
> spectrum, I may cautiously include it in my tests. Thanks for the =20
> suggestion. Any other ideas are welcome.
> Too many tests! I'm starting to run out of room in the kiln!
> Caleb
>
>
>> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 22:47:01 -0600
>> From: Joseph.Herbert@ATT.NET
>> Subject: Re: Soda Alternatives
>> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>>
>> I am not advocating use of lye during firing of pottery. I am =20
>> posing a
>> question.
>>
>> I have often wondered why sodium hydroxide solution is not an =20
>> alternative to
>> sodium carbonate solution. It is dangerous to handle and =20
>> carelessness will
>> result in bad chemical burns, as in removing your skin or blindness.
>> However, it is a soluble source of sodium that can be mixed to high
>> concentrations and it is cheap.
>>
>> This is lye. It is used to make soap and it will make soap out of =20=
>> you, if
>> you let it. An ample supply of sodium bicarbonate in water should =20=
>> be on
>> hand.
>>
>> Sodium carbonate is a fairly strong base and sodium hydroxide is even
>> stronger.
>>
>> A concentrated solution of sodium hydroxide has more sodium ions =20
>> per 100 ml
>> of fluid than does sodium carbonate solution. Salt firing types =20
>> often
>> complain that the use of sodium carbonate does not give them the =20
>> results
>> they desire because the carbonate ion is not as active in the kiln
>> atmosphere as is chlorine. The hydroxyl ion probably does not =20
>> last long in
>> the kiln atmosphere but would be pretty active while it lasted. =20
>> Might make
>> up for the lack of chlorine.
>>
>> =46rom years of reading the correspondence on Clayart, I have come =20=
>> to suspect
>> a certain percentage of clayworkers are not particularly risk =20
>> averse. Given
>> that, and in a discussion where TSP and MSG were suggested as =20
>> possible
>> sodium sources during firing, I wonder that I have never run across a
>> description of sodium hydroxide as a firing adjunct.
>>
>> By the way, the industrial hazard rating of sodium carbonate is 2; =20=
>> the
>> rating of sodium hydroxide is 4, the highest rating. It really is =20=
>> bad
>> stuff.
>>
>> If you hung a couple of chicken carcasses in the kiln flue just =20
>> before the
>> MSG insertion, the whole neighborhood would be out looking for =20
>> Wonton Soup.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Caleb =20=
>> smith
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 7:33 PM
>> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>> Subject: Re: Soda Alternatives
>>
>> Hi Marian,
>> Thanks for the extensive response. I must admit I have a bit of a =20=
>> mad
>> scientist approach to ceramics sometimes, so thanks for bringing =20
>> it back
>> around to the safety aspects. I fully intend to be careful with my
>> experiments. All of my current tests are done in saggars, with =20
>> low volumes
>> of material. I am a pool technician and handle some pretty toxic =20
>> stuff, so
>> caution is always in the equation. The TSP and Sodium Bisulfate =20
>> experiments
>> were designed with potential explosions in mind, as well as possible
>> air-born toxins. I must admit I hadn't checked out the MSDS for =20=
>> MSG but
>> I'll definitely look it over. =46rom what you say, it sounds as =20
>> though I will
>> need to deliver MSG in a solution of some sort. I'll try to be =20
>> careful, and
>> thanks for the warning.
>> Best,
>> Caleb
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 17:02:57 -0500
>>> From: neoncat@FLASH.NET
>>> Subject: Re: Soda Alternatives
>>> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>>>
>>> Oh, I hate to be a killjoy. But...
>>> monosodium glutamate (MSG) is an organic chemical. As such it =20
>>> presents
>> some
>>> special issues if you want to use it for salt firing or store it =20
>>> around
>> the
>>> studio.
>>>
>>> MSDS resources suggest that monosodium glutamate be kept in =20
>>> tightly closed
>>> containers in cool, dry, specially ventilated areas, the idea =20
>>> being to
>> avoid
>>> dust formation and to keep the MSG away from ignition sources and =20=
>>> static
>>> electricity. You do not want to create clouds of dust, especially in
>>> confined or unventilated spaces, they may form an explosive =20
>>> mixture with
>> air
>>> and any source of ignition (flame or spark) will cause a fire or
>> explosion.
>>> Fine dusts are particularly worrisome - they may burn rapidly and =20=
>>> fiercely
>>> when ignited. MSG dust can also be charged electrostatically by =20
>>> pouring,
>>> transporting it, or by creating turbulence during kiln salting. =20
>>> If you
>>> suspect your MSG storage container is hot you should not even =20
>>> approach it
>>> until it cools. You'll also want to keep your stored MSG safe from
>>> contamination by oxidizing agents (nitrates, oxidizing acids, =20
>>> chlorine
>>> bleach, etc.) so that ignition does not result. If you spill your =20=
>>> MSG
>> clean
>>> it up promptly.
>>>
>>> So, if you plan to salt your kiln with monosodium glutamate =20
>>> please be
>> aware
>>> that a flash fire or explosion may occur before or during =20
>>> salting. It
>> should
>>> be noted that MSG has much lower melting and decomposition =20
>>> temperatures
>> than
>>> you salt-firers are use to dealing with using more standard =20
>>> chemicals in
>>> your specialty. Sure combustion or decomposition of MSG will create
>>> desirable sodium oxide, but these processes will also generate =20
>>> oxides of
>>> nitrogen and ammonia, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, and other
>> irritating
>>> and toxic fumes and gases.
>>>
>>> Melting Point: 200 - 2320 C (393 - 4500 F)
>>> Decomposition Temperature: 165 - 1900 C (329 - 3740 F)
>>>
>>> See two very short, interesting, and impressive videos of dust =20
>>> explosions:
>>>
>> http://www.teachersdomain.org/resources/lsps07/sci/phys/matter/=20
>> expldust/inde
>>> x.html
>>> (click "view" and watch #'s 2 and 3)
>>>
>>> Personal safety concerns:
>>> MSG may cause eye irritation. If you wear soft contact lenses =20
>>> they may
>>> absorb and concentrate MSG. MSG may cause skin irritation and can be
>>> absorbed through the skin. Sensitization may result in allergic =20
>>> dermatitis
>>> with symptoms of rash, itching, hives or swelling of the =20
>>> extremities. MSG
>>> may cause respiratory tract irritation and is a known respiratory =20=
>>> and skin
>>> sensitiser. Respiratory sensitization may result in allergic or =20
>>> asthma
>> like
>>> responses, including coughing and minor breathing difficulties to
>> bronchitis
>>> complete with wheezing and gasping. MSG is known to bind to the
>>> N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) neuroreceptors (yes there is some =20
>>> scientific
>>> basis for the MSG syndrome that affects certain individuals who eat
>> Chinese
>>> and other MSG enhanced foods).
>>>
>>> Marian
>>> Neon-Cat Ceramics
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On Behalf Of Caleb =20=
>>> smith
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 9:47 AM
>>> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>>> Subject: Re: Soda Alternatives
>>>
>>> Ivor Lewis,
>>> MSG is a good thought and I'll try it. Similar in pH to a =20
>>> carbonate but
>>> with a bunch of different tag along elements. Thanks for the =20
>>> suggestion.
>>> Best
>>> Caleb
>>> Lake Tahoe, California
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> See what people are saying about Windows Live. Check out featured =20=
>> posts.
>> http://www.windowslive.com/connect?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_connect2_082008=3D=
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Be the filmmaker you always wanted to be=97learn how to burn a DVD =20
> with Windows=AE.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108588797/direct/01/
Hank Murrow on thu 21 aug 08
On Aug 21, 2008, at 1:02 PM, jonathan byler wrote:
> just out of curiosity, would potassium salts work as well as sodium
> salts in terms of the effects they have on the final pieces? is
> there a reason no one ever talks of a "potassium vapor" kiln?
> Since the alkaline elements (at least Kn and Na) are often
> calculated together in glaze recipes, maybe this is also worth a
> try. I suppose to get a really good experiment, one would have to
> start with a fresh, new, clean kiln in order to see what potassium
> alone would do, since there is residual sodium on the walls of the
> kiln after a soda firing.
Dear Jonathan;
I did both Lithium and Potassium 'salting' while working on my MFA at
Oregon. Good results either way, and Potassium yields cooler colors.
Lithium warmer.
BTW, salt residues collect mainly in the cracks in the refractories
at the floor of the kiln(causing expansion of those joints). The
accumulation on the walls and roof does not contaminate the next load
except very slightly. For this reason, I always cast a high alumina
'pan' in the fireboxes of salt kilns I build. The molten salt stays
in the pan until vaporized, and much less salt is needed to glaze the
ware. Subsequent firings are pretty much free of salting if fired
without it.
Cheers, Hank
Ivor and Olive Lewis on fri 22 aug 08
Dear Joseph Herbert,
Sodium Hydroxide is an interesting proposition. Having studied the
Sodium Chloride reaction and being aware of the corrosive nature of
that process I thought I might have some ideas.
I checked the melting point of NaOH. Relatively low, about 318 deg C.
Other properties: Hygroscopic and readily reacts with acids. So if it
is used in a fuel fired situation, by the time it got near your pots
it would have reacted with flue gases and changed into Sodium
Carbonate.
There is an exchange reaction between Sodium chloride and the
Potassium bearing minerals, mica and felspar, in a clay body. This
chemistry was used in WW 1 as a source of potash for the manufacture
of Gunpowder.
It is well known that during the firing of industrial salt kilns the
effluent discharged contained equal proportions of Sodium and
Potassium Chlorides. Other metallic chlorides (AlCl3, SiCl4, FeCl3)
that are discharged in salt glaze effluent gases react with water to
give strong acid solutions.
I have yet to read of a satisfactory chemistry for the Sodium
Carbonate reaction with clay, but I would suspect an "acid /base"
reaction with free silica.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.
Des & Jan Howard on fri 22 aug 08
Fred
We have sprayed sodium chloride solution over glazes with interesting
results. A copper flambe will shift from blue/purple to red in the area
sprayed. Potassium sulphate, from the garden shop, wasn't successful,
yucky brown.
Sodium carbonate is toxic, so is potassium carbonate & sulphate, where
does lithium fit into this lexicon?
Des
Fredrick Paget wrote:
> I have long wondered what potasium carbonate solution sprayed into
> the kiln instead of sodium carbonate would do?
>
> Next step up after potassium is rubidium and that would be very
> expensive and I think toxic too. After that cesium.
> A step down from sodium is lithium and I am not suggesting that as
> the toxic effects are well known.
--
Des & Jan Howard
Lue Pottery
Lue NSW
Australia
2850
02 6373 6419
www.luepottery.hwy.com.au
Neon-Cat on fri 22 aug 08
Hi all!
Ivor, - today is your lucky day!
I present to you not only a fine, correct chemical explanation regarding
sodium carbonate as it reacts with silica but a bonus revelation about
sodium hydroxide as either might be used during kiln firing. How sodium
carbonate reacts with clay - each clay reacts differently - is a slightly
different story, but you mentioned 'free silica' and the thread is on salt
and soda firing so I have confined my explanations accordingly.
Sodium carbonate (soda ash, Na2CO3) has a melting point of 851 degrees C
(1564 degrees F). I mention this in the context of ceramic artists who are
introducing it into their kilns (usually at temperatures well above 851
degrees C).
Anyway, not to prolong the suspense...
Sodium carbonate (soda ash) is going to decompose when heated. In the
presence of silica (SiO2) its decomposition is greatly enhanced. In a molten
state the main decomposition reaction begins to take place at the eutectic
temperature of the Na2O-SiO2 system (800 degrees C or 1472 degrees F) and
the initial decomposition product is Na2SiO3 (sodium silicate):
Na2CO3 (s) + SiO2 (s) ---> Na2SiO3(s) + CO2(g)
(sodium silicate production)
It makes no difference what ratio of soda ash to silica is present, the
reaction will continue until either the soda ash or the silica is used up.
If by chance someone got real carried away and used a heck of a lot of
sodium carbonate so that there was some of it was left after all available
silica was used up, then the remaining sodium carbonate will decompose
partly by reacting with the sodium silicate (Na2SiO3) to form Na6Si2O7
(sodium pyrosilicate) and partly by thermal self-decomposition (only above
the melting point of the carbonate) where sodium oxide (Na2O) forms as the
result of the evolution of carbon dioxide:
Na2CO3 ---> (heat) Na2O + CO2 (g)
(sodium oxide production)
If the sodium oxide is in the right place to impact a glaze melt it will
enter into the melt. Some of it will then go on to evaporate as sodium gas
and oxygen.
As to sodium hydroxide, it might be best to just tweak sodium carbonate with
a pinch or two instead of using straight NaOH as a soda alternative. Sodium
hydroxide will absorb carbon dioxide (CO2), if present, from flue gases to
produce baking soda (sodium bicarbonate, NaHCO3). The heat to drive this
process is captured from heat in the kiln gases and kiln. To create sodium
carbonate from NaOH is a two-step process with baking soda (sodium
bicarbonate) being produced first followed by sodium carbonate through a
reaction between the sodium bicarbonate and sodium hydroxide (NaOH):
NaOH + CO2 ---> NaHCO3
(sodium bicarbonate production)
NaHCO3 + NaOH ---> Na2CO3 + H2O
(sodium carbonate production)
Interesting thread; I'm enjoying the chatter, questions, ideas, and
possibilities.
Have fun and stay safe out there,
Marian
(back to plain old basic, but fun, wet clay work...)
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On Behalf Of Ivor and Olive
Lewis
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 2:13 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Soda Alternatives
Dear Joseph Herbert,
Sodium Hydroxide is an interesting proposition. Having studied the
Sodium Chloride reaction and being aware of the corrosive nature of
that process I thought I might have some ideas.
I checked the melting point of NaOH. Relatively low, about 318 deg C.
Other properties: Hygroscopic and readily reacts with acids. So if it
is used in a fuel fired situation, by the time it got near your pots
it would have reacted with flue gases and changed into Sodium
Carbonate.
There is an exchange reaction between Sodium chloride and the
Potassium bearing minerals, mica and felspar, in a clay body. This
chemistry was used in WW 1 as a source of potash for the manufacture
of Gunpowder.
It is well known that during the firing of industrial salt kilns the
effluent discharged contained equal proportions of Sodium and
Potassium Chlorides. Other metallic chlorides (AlCl3, SiCl4, FeCl3)
that are discharged in salt glaze effluent gases react with water to
give strong acid solutions.
I have yet to read of a satisfactory chemistry for the Sodium
Carbonate reaction with clay, but I would suspect an "acid /base"
reaction with free silica.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.
Greg F on sat 23 aug 08
Potassium is a BAD idea. Truns everything grey. There was an article in
CM about Ariz(?) potters using Cottonwood to wood fire, and it failed
because of the potassium in the wood.
Greg F
____________________________________________________________
Easy-to-use, advanced features, flexible phone systems. Click here for more info.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3ohtZwQG8B8QbgTQgFEuPOl9GS7gOL5RKeVug4Sezh5KFFHH/
| |
|
