Kim Hohlmayer on wed 27 aug 08
Lois,
I would state it even more strongly than that. At one NCECA I heard someone on a pannel say that while hand building was a great way to start anyone who went into production would have to throw. I didn't believe it then and I don't believe it now. I can throw perfectly well though far from perfectly. But in a life with limited work time why perfect my throwing when I don't even want to throw. I hand build. I'm pretty good at it. Even if the silly tool under discussion actually worked it would interest me not at all. I am a hand building potter and I am proud of it! So why don't we teach hand building to others as a genuine potting alternative instead of simply a stepping stone to throwing?
Okay, I feel much better now for having vented. --Kim H.
--- On Tue, 8/26/08, Lois Ruben Aronow wrote:
> From: Lois Ruben Aronow
> Subject: Re: centering tool, clay education
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Date: Tuesday, August 26, 2008, 9:40 PM
> Ditto with Mel on kids and wheels. Question: why do so
> many people think
> that the wheel is the be all and end all to pottery? I
> will preface my post
> by saying I have 2 kids - ages 11 and 7.
>
> Kids start out hand building for a reason: tactile
> materials, clay in
> particular, help develop fine motor skills. Most pre-k
> kids don't even have
> a developed pincer grip - the one that allows them to hold
> a pencil and
> write. Clay in schools is used to teach form, touch,
> color, hand/eye....all
> that. Wheel throwing in so very far away and unnecessary
> at this age. I
> have never seen a pottery class (even outside of the
> school) that teaches
> wheel to students younger than teen. Most beginner adults
> become frustrated
> at first. Wanna discourage kids from pursuing clay? Show
> them when
> prematurely how tough it can be. It will discourage them
> from ever using
> clay again.
>
> Developing the eye and the appreciation of what one is
> doing is far more
> important than developing wheel skills. I think we have
> all seen too many
> people who can use a wheel decently and make fugly pots.
> There is nothing
> wrong with hand building and sculpture, and I wish more
> people here had an
> appreciation for it. Pisses me off.
Jarita Thomson on wed 27 aug 08
Oh=2C thank you=2C Elizabeth!=20
=20
I have been contemplating buying an extruder for awhile. I have some neat i=
deas on combining slabs with extrusions. Only I couldn't figure out how I c=
ould afford it. Right after I read your email=2C I spoke with my husband an=
d made one phone call and I sold the wheel!!! It's gone! Now it won't sit i=
n the corner pouting and aggravating me=3B instead it will make someone els=
e's life more fulfilling. I don't know why it didn't occur to me sooner=2C =
guess it was that pressure thing.
=20
You know=2C I don't write in very often=2C but I feel that it has really he=
lped on the couple of occasions that I have written in. Awhile ago=2C I wro=
te in and=2C among other things=2C I discussed the fact that I have been us=
ing commercial clay and glazes. Taking the time to publicly discuss it forc=
ed me to really think about the issue. I decided that the commercial clay f=
or now is only reasonable=2C but I have also begun working with mixing glaz=
es (not my own=2C just recipes=2C but it's a beginning towards my own) . I =
am having to learn on my own which is hard and complicated=2C but I am lear=
ning. I have invested in a couple of books including "Mastering Cone 6 Glaz=
es" and I am really enjoying the challenge.=20
=20
Sometimes re-evaluating one's perception allows for growth=3B while other t=
imes it allows for confirmation of your position. I am truly grateful for c=
layart and the thought provoking environment it provides.
=20
Thanks=2C
Jarita
> Date: Wed=2C 27 Aug 2008 11:31:59 -0700> From: priddyclay@YAHOO.COM> Subj=
ect: Re: FW: centering tool=2C clay education=2C Hand Builders-2nd class cl=
ay citizens?> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG> > No=2C Jarita=2C it is absolut=
ely unnecessary to learn to throw.> > You are not a better potter because =
you can throw.> I can teach a reasonably competent monkey to throw.> > I t=
hink the opposite of some. Throwing is the first thing> and then is follow=
ed by more creative hand work. All thrown things> are limited to starting =
out round=2C and then altering from round=2C > sometimes for no good reason=
. As in=2C you could have made the > same thing in half the time if you ha=
d just built it or used forms.> > Throwing is really great for making roun=
d things fast. That is it.> > Throwing is just a macho gotcha game of who=
got there first in terms of> who is better than who. It is limited in its=
range of skill. Once you can > a reasonably sized cylinder of even thickn=
ess=2C you aren't going to get > qualitatively better at it. Your skill le=
vel has buolt in limitations=2C and in> my thinking=2C that makes it an inf=
erior art form to handwork. Hand work > is only limited by your imaginatio=
n and creative use of the material.> > Feel free to use any of that next t=
ime some wheel jockey makes you feel like> less of a potter because you don=
't ride a bike as well as s/he does.> .> Keep handbuilding. And let the ot=
her go. Sell the wheel and buy a great extruder!> Throwing is a wonderful =
thing but not required one bit to be an excellent potter.> > Elizabeth Prid=
dy> Beaufort=2C NC - USA> > Workshops and pottery online at:> > http://www.=
elizabethpriddy.com> > > Natural Instincts Conference Information:> http://=
downtothepottershouse.com/NaturalInstincts.html> Kiln pictures and such:> h=
ttp://www.flickr.com/photos/7973282@N03/> > --- On Wed=2C 8/27/08=2C Jarita=
Thomson wrote:> > From: Jarita Thomson ritascoiledclay@HOTMAIL.COM>> Subject: FW: centering tool=2C clay education=
=2C Hand Builders-2nd class clay citizens?> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG> D=
ate: Wednesday=2C August 27=2C 2008=2C 1:51 PM> > From: jaritascoiledclay@h=
otmail.comTo: beadiepotter@yahoo.comSubject: RE:> centering tool=2C clay ed=
ucation=2C Hand Builders-2nd class clay citizens?Date: Wed=2C> 27 Aug 2008 =
13:49:20 -0400> > > But do I even need to learn? I> guess that is mostly up=
to me=2C but I definitely feel pressured to learn. Do I> give in to that p=
ressure (or at least try while suffering a lot of pain) or do I> continue w=
ith my own voice and develop and strive to perfect my handbuilding> skills?=
It is reassuring to know that handbuilding is recognized as a pursuit> wor=
th striving for. Just sharing thoughts=2CJarita > > > > >=20
_________________________________________________________________
Talk to your Yahoo! Friends via Windows Live Messenger. Find out how.
http://www.windowslive.com/explore/messenger?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_messenger_=
yahoo_082008=
Vince Pitelka on wed 27 aug 08
Jarita Thomson wrote:
"Anyway, I have been watching this whole discussion about the centering tool
and all. You see, I am physically challenged. Not actually handicapped, but
I have some noteworthy bone deformities that make life more complex. In many
regards I have learned to do most things like other people and many people
never realize that I have deformities, but when it comes to the clay world,
well, my challenges become more obvious. Over the years, I too have felt
that there is a lot of expectation for potters to "advance" to throwing from
handbuilding. I have perceived this so strongly that 2 years ago I bought a
wheel. I have tried repeatedly to work this blasted thing because I feel
that it is expected. I can now center about a 1 1/2 pound piece of clay and
pull a basic cylinder that stands, oh about, 6-9 " tall. But I have learned
this at a great expense and a great deal of pain and I'm not very good at
it. On the other hand, I can coil bottles that stand 24" tall and are
graceful and elegant. I can slab-build vases, birdhouses, baskets and a wide
variety of other items that are all very well-made. But, I can't throw on
the wheel. Does that make me less of a potter?"
My goodness Jarita, it sounds to me like you have become a very accomplished
potter. Learning to handbuild well is much more difficult than learning to
throw well. The wheel is just a tool, and learning to throw well is just
the very beginning of making good pots on the wheel. Many people are
seduced into thinking that the wheel is the ultimate pottery tool just
because it is a machine, and the propaganda of progress and
industrialization has taught us to be infatuated with machines that
supposedly make our lives easier. Anyone who thinks that the wheel makes
pottery-making easier is only beginning to exploit the possibilities of the
wheel. Also, most people who work exclusively on the wheel have never
learned to handbuild properly. Most of the "wheel elitism" you sense is from
people who are afraid of handbuilding.
My own experience might reassure you. In undergraduate school I learned
only the wheel, and never learned handbuilding at all. Don't get me wrong,
I had a great time in undergrad school and had a good teacher, but it was
just the times. I became a full-time studio potter working on the wheel and
did that for ten years before my wife and I finally got around to attending
graduate school. In grad school I did not want to keep doing the same thing
I had been doing, so I decided that I would pursue handbuilding exclusively
and see what happened. I discovered such a vast world of possibility, so
much more than on the wheel. To this day, all of my work is handbuilt. All
of the workshops I teach now are centered (bad pun) around handbuilding, and
I get tremendous satisfaction from turning other people on to the
possibilities of handbuilding.
I love wheel-thrown pots, but there are relatively few potters in North
America who really use the wheel to maximum advantage. Some of the best
ones use the wheel to make component parts for handbuilding. I don't do
that. All the parts of my forms are entirely handbuilt. If you wish, you
can see them at
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/gallery/current%20work/current_work.htm
I still teach wheel-throwing along with handbuilding in my university
program. I collect both wheel-thrown and handbuilt pots by contemporary
potters, but I cannot imagine every going back to the wheel in my own work
unless it was to make parts for handbuilding. I think even that is
unlikely, because I love the challenge of finding ways to handbuild whatever
forms I need.
Good luck with your handbuilding -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Elizabeth Priddy on wed 27 aug 08
You're welcome!
=A0
And I hope you enjoy your new toys.
=A0
I have and like the Northstar extruder system.=A0 They have some really
excellent dies.=A0 The stainless steel is better than the blue painted ones=
.
=A0
Have fun!
Elizabeth Priddy
Beaufort, NC - USA
Workshops and pottery online at:
http://www.elizabethpriddy.com
Natural Instincts Conference Information:
http://downtothepottershouse.com/NaturalInstincts.html
Kiln pictures and such:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7973282@N03/
--- On Wed, 8/27/08, Jarita Thomson wrote:
From: Jarita Thomson
Subject: Re: centering tool, clay education, Hand Builders-2nd class clay c=
itizens?
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Date: Wednesday, August 27, 2008, 8:18 PM
Oh, thank you, Elizabeth!=20
=20
I have been contemplating buying an extruder for awhile. I have some neat i=
deas
on combining slabs with extrusions. Only I couldn't figure out how I could
afford it. Right after I read your email, I spoke with my husband and made =
one
phone call and I sold the wheel!!! It's gone! Now it won't sit in the
corner pouting and aggravating me; instead it will make someone else's life
more fulfilling. I don't know why it didn't occur to me sooner, guess it
was that pressure thing.
=20
You know, I don't write in very often, but I feel that it has really helped
on the couple of occasions that I have written in. Awhile ago, I wrote in a=
nd,
among other things, I discussed the fact that I have been using commercial =
clay
and glazes. Taking the time to publicly discuss it forced me to really thin=
k
about the issue. I decided that the commercial clay for now is only reasona=
ble,
but I have also begun working with mixing glazes (not my own, just recipes,=
but
it's a beginning towards my own) . I am having to learn on my own which is
hard and complicated, but I am learning. I have invested in a couple of boo=
ks
including "Mastering Cone 6 Glazes" and I am really enjoying the
challenge.=20
=20
Sometimes re-evaluating one's perception allows for growth; while other
times it allows for confirmation of your position. I am truly grateful for
clayart and the thought provoking environment it provides.
=20
Thanks,
Jarita
> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 11:31:59 -0700> From: priddyclay@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: FW: centering tool, clay education, Hand Builders-2nd class cl=
ay
citizens?> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG> > No, Jarita, it is absolutely
unnecessary to learn to throw.> > You are not a better potter because you
can throw.> I can teach a reasonably competent monkey to throw.> > I
think the opposite of some. Throwing is the first thing> and then is
followed by more creative hand work. All thrown things> are limited to
starting out round, and then altering from round, > sometimes for no good
reason. As in, you could have made the > same thing in half the time if yo=
u
had just built it or used forms.> > Throwing is really great for making
round things fast. That is it.> > Throwing is just a macho gotcha game
of who got there first in terms of> who is better than who. It is limited =
in
its range of skill. Once you can > a reasonably sized cylinder of even
thickness, you aren't going to get > qualitatively better at it. Your
skill level has buolt in limitations, and in> my thinking, that makes it an
inferior art form to handwork. Hand work > is only limited by your
imagination and creative use of the material.> > Feel free to use any of
that next time some wheel jockey makes you feel like> less of a potter
because you don't ride a bike as well as s/he does.> .> Keep
handbuilding. And let the other go. Sell the wheel and buy a great
extruder!> Throwing is a wonderful thing but not required one bit to be an
excellent potter.> > Elizabeth Priddy> Beaufort, NC - USA> >
Workshops and pottery online at:> > http://www.elizabethpriddy.com>
> > Natural Instincts Conference Information:>
http://downtothepottershouse.com/NaturalInstincts.html> Kiln pictures and
such:> http://www.flickr.com/photos/7973282@N03/> > --- On Wed,
8/27/08, Jarita Thomson wrote:> >
From: Jarita Thomson > Subject: FW:
centering tool, clay education, Hand Builders-2nd class clay citizens?> To:
CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG> Date: Wednesday, August 27, 2008, 1:51 PM> >
From: jaritascoiledclay@hotmail.comTo: beadiepotter@yahoo.comSubject: RE:>
centering tool, clay education, Hand Builders-2nd class clay citizens?Date:
Wed,> 27 Aug 2008 13:49:20 -0400> > > But do I even need to learn?
I> guess that is mostly up to me, but I definitely feel pressured to learn.
Do I> give in to that pressure (or at least try while suffering a lot of
pain) or do I> continue with my own voice and develop and strive to perfect
my handbuilding> skills? It is reassuring to know that handbuilding is
recognized as a pursuit> worth striving for. Just sharing thoughts,Jarita
> > > > >=20
_________________________________________________________________
Talk to your Yahoo! Friends via Windows Live Messenger. Find out how.
http://www.windowslive.com/explore/messenger?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_messenger_=
yahoo_082008=0A=0A=0A
Kim Hohlmayer on tue 2 sep 08
Dear Jarita,
Lurk no more! You are a real potter and yes, hand building is real art. There is a good story in the world of education about when the animals went to school. The lion got A's in running but failed swimming. The remedial swimming class took so much time and energy that next grading period he got D's in both swimming and running. The duck had the opposite problem and in fact did such damage to his poor webbed feet that he couldn't swim at all for ages and never did pass his running class.
The story has many other components but I am sure by now that you get the point. Each of us is given our gifts and each has limitations. Why do we spend so much wasted time as a culture lamenting our limitations instead of celebrating and developing our gifts and talents? Keep coiling and tell everyone who would make you feel less than a potter that such opinions are their problem and issue, not yours! And post some more. You write beautifully! :^) --Kim H.
--- On Wed, 8/27/08, Jarita Thomson wrote:
> From: Jarita Thomson
> Subject: RE: centering tool, clay education, Hand Builders-2nd class clay citizens?
> To: beadiepotter@yahoo.com
> Date: Wednesday, August 27, 2008, 1:49 PM
> Kim and all,I'm glad to hear some support for
> handbuilding. I am usually a lurker on clayart because I get
> intimidated easily. (Already had the discussion on that and
> some very nice people showed reassurance, thank you.)
> Anyway, I have been watching this whole discussion about the
> centering tool and all. You see, I am physically challenged.
> Not actually handicapped, but I have some noteworthy bone
> deformities that make life more complex. In many regards I
> have learned to do most things like other people and many
> people never realize that I have deformities, but when it
> comes to the clay world, well, my challenges become more
> obvious. Over the years, I too have felt that there is a lot
> of expectation for potters to "advance" to
> throwing from handbuilding. I have perceived this so
> strongly that 2 years ago I bought a wheel. I have tried
> repeatedly to work this blasted thing because I feel that it
> is expected. I can now center about a 1 1/2 pound piece of
> clay and pull a basic cylinder that stands, oh about, 6-9
> " tall. But I have learned this at a great expense and
> a great deal of pain and I'm not very good at it. On the
> other hand, I can coil bottles that stand 24" tall and
> are graceful and elegant. I can slab-build vases,
> birdhouses, baskets and a wide variety of other items that
> are all very well-made. But, I can't throw on the wheel.
> Does that make me less of a potter? I hope not and I am glad
> to hear that others prefer handbuilding and regard it as
> respectfully as wheel thrown work.Larry commented that he
> too has physical challenges and yet he learned and became
> very proficient at throwing on the wheel. I do not know if
> his problems relate to mine in any way, but hearing that
> someone overcame their challenges is also reassuring. If he
> can, can I? I don't remember who ( I think it was Vince?
> but supported by others) who said if you can't wedge a 5
> pound ball of clay you don't need to be throwing on the
> wheel. I can't wedge a 5 pound, or even a 2-3 pound,
> ball of clay. (My arms have limited mobility and strength
> and my adjustments that I would normally make for other
> activities cause intense pain in my back when I try to
> wedge. It's hard to explain.) Maybe I could learn to
> throw from a teacher who can understand my challenges and
> help me to figure out a way around them. Too bad I don't
> live near Larry as he seems to be teaching and knows about
> physical challenges. But do I even need to learn? I guess
> that is mostly up to me, but I definitely feel pressured to
> learn. Do I give in to that pressure (or at least try while
> suffering a lot of pain) or do I continue with my own voice
> and develop and strive to perfect my handbuilding skills? It
> is reassuring to know that handbuilding is recognized as a
> pursuit worth striving for. Just sharing thoughts,Jarita
>
> > Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 07:43:19 -0700> From:
> beadiepotter@YAHOO.COM> Subject: Re: centering tool, clay
> education, Hand Builders-2nd class clay citizens?> To:
> CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG> > Lois,> I would state it
> even more strongly than that. At one NCECA I heard someone
> on a pannel say that while hand building was a great way to
> start anyone who went into production would have to throw. I
> didn't believe it then and I don't believe it now. I
> can throw perfectly well though far from perfectly. But in a
> life with limited work time why perfect my throwing when I
> don't even want to throw. I hand build. I'm pretty
> good at it. Even if the silly tool under discussion actually
> worked it would interest me not at all. I am a hand building
> potter and I am proud of it! So why don't we teach hand
> building to others as a genuine potting alternative instead
> of simply a stepping stone to throwing?> Okay, I feel
> much better now for having vented. --Kim H.>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get ideas on sharing photos from people like you. Find new
> ways to share.
> http://www.windowslive.com/explore/photogallery/posts?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Photo_Gallery_082008
Jeff Longtin on tue 2 sep 08
To throw it out to both of you. If you want to read a book that really
captures the essence of Kim's statement look for "Finding One's Way with Clay" by
Paulus Berenshon.
In high school, when I had the frame of mind that the only good pot is a
wheel thrown pot, I tripped upon this in the library. Its a book that focuses on
pinch pottery as a hand building technique.
Besides challenging the notion of "what constitutes a good pot" it also has
some amazing photographs.
take care
Jeff L
In a message dated 9/2/2008 10:31:51 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
beadiepotter@YAHOO.COM writes:
Dear Jarita,
Lurk no more! You are a real potter and yes, hand building is real art.
There is a good story in the world of education about when the animals went to
school. The lion got A's in running but failed swimming. The remedial
swimming class took so much time and energy that next grading period he got D's in
both swimming and running. The duck had the opposite problem and in fact
did such damage to his poor webbed feet that he couldn't swim at all for ages
and never did pass his running class.
The story has many other components but I am sure by now that you get the
point. Each of us is given our gifts and each has limitations. Why do we
spend so much wasted time as a culture lamenting our limitations instead of
celebrating and developing our gifts and talents? Keep coiling and tell everyone
who would make you feel less than a potter that such opinions are their
problem and issue, not yours! And post some more. You write beautifully! :^)
--Kim H.
--- On Wed, 8/27/08, Jarita Thomson wrote:
> From: Jarita Thomson
> Subject: RE: centering tool, clay education, Hand Builders-2nd class clay
citizens?
> To: beadiepotter@yahoo.com
> Date: Wednesday, August 27, 2008, 1:49 PM
> Kim and all,I'm glad to hear some support for
> handbuilding. I am usually a lurker on clayart because I get
> intimidated easily. (Already had the discussion on that and
> some very nice people showed reassurance, thank you.)
> Anyway, I have been watching this whole discussion about the
> centering tool and all. You see, I am physically challenged.
> Not actually handicapped, but I have some noteworthy bone
> deformities that make life more complex. In many regards I
> have learned to do most things like other people and many
> people never realize that I have deformities, but when it
> comes to the clay world, well, my challenges become more
> obvious. Over the years, I too have felt that there is a lot
> of expectation for potters to "advance" to
> throwing from handbuilding. I have perceived this so
> strongly that 2 years ago I bought a wheel. I have tried
> repeatedly to work this blasted thing because I feel that it
> is expected. I can now center about a 1 1/2 pound piece of
> clay and pull a basic cylinder that stands, oh about, 6-9
> " tall. But I have learned this at a great expense and
> a great deal of pain and I'm not very good at it. On the
> other hand, I can coil bottles that stand 24" tall and
> are graceful and elegant. I can slab-build vases,
> birdhouses, baskets and a wide variety of other items that
> are all very well-made. But, I can't throw on the wheel.
> Does that make me less of a potter? I hope not and I am glad
> to hear that others prefer handbuilding and regard it as
> respectfully as wheel thrown work.Larry commented that he
> too has physical challenges and yet he learned and became
> very proficient at throwing on the wheel. I do not know if
> his problems relate to mine in any way, but hearing that
> someone overcame their challenges is also reassuring. If he
> can, can I? I don't remember who ( I think it was Vince?
> but supported by others) who said if you can't wedge a 5
> pound ball of clay you don't need to be throwing on the
> wheel. I can't wedge a 5 pound, or even a 2-3 pound,
> ball of clay. (My arms have limited mobility and strength
> and my adjustments that I would normally make for other
> activities cause intense pain in my back when I try to
> wedge. It's hard to explain.) Maybe I could learn to
> throw from a teacher who can understand my challenges and
> help me to figure out a way around them. Too bad I don't
> live near Larry as he seems to be teaching and knows about
> physical challenges. But do I even need to learn? I guess
> that is mostly up to me, but I definitely feel pressured to
> learn. Do I give in to that pressure (or at least try while
> suffering a lot of pain) or do I continue with my own voice
> and develop and strive to perfect my handbuilding skills? It
> is reassuring to know that handbuilding is recognized as a
> pursuit worth striving for. Just sharing thoughts,Jarita
>
> > Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 07:43:19 -0700> From:
> beadiepotter@YAHOO.COM> Subject: Re: centering tool, clay
> education, Hand Builders-2nd class clay citizens?> To:
> CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG> > Lois,> I would state it
> even more strongly than that. At one NCECA I heard someone
> on a pannel say that while hand building was a great way to
> start anyone who went into production would have to throw. I
> didn't believe it then and I don't believe it now. I
> can throw perfectly well though far from perfectly. But in a
> life with limited work time why perfect my throwing when I
> don't even want to throw. I hand build. I'm pretty
> good at it. Even if the silly tool under discussion actually
> worked it would interest me not at all. I am a hand building
> potter and I am proud of it! So why don't we teach hand
> building to others as a genuine potting alternative instead
> of simply a stepping stone to throwing?> Okay, I feel
> much better now for having vented. --Kim H.>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get ideas on sharing photos from people like you. Find new
> ways to share.
>
http://www.windowslive.com/explore/photogallery/posts?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Photo_Gallery_082008
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