Vince Pitelka on fri 29 aug 08
Dave McBeth wrote:
"While I too was initially appalled at the notion of an auto-centering
devise; I have been the studio this afternoon, throwing on the electric
wheel because I am making largish platter/bowls. Suddenly there was a small
but earnest voice in the back of my head chuckling at me for using an
electric wheel, in fact a machine, to make the making of my pots easier. So
what did the really old timers says when the kick wheel was motorized, what
did the really really old time potters say when the clay pot spinning in a
depression in the dirt was centered on a kickwheel, for those living and
working in the second half of a century - remember a time when we fired
kilns without a computers? Maybe we don't always realize or recognize the
benefits of things new."
Aww Dave, you just wish you had invented it! Seriously, the power wheel
might have had some kick- and treadle-wheel purists upset, but it was of
course a great idea, and it was inevitable. There's no comparison to this
ridiculous little contraption - the Brent QuickCenter. Every teacher who
uses this device will be doing a disservice to his or her students, robbing
them of the essential experience and skill of centering. Every teacher who
uses it will be compromising their own teaching ethics by taking a shortcut
rather than learning to center and to teach centering, and by doing so will
demean themselves. By marketing this thing to K-12 teachers, Brent demeans
themselves and diminishes the worth of all of their products.
If Brent is really seriously marketing this thing to K-12 teachers, then I
am done with Brent. I have always liked Brent wheels and slabrollers, and
have recommended them to other people, but no more. What they are doing is
a con - it is sleazy.
Sorry Dave, I didn't mean to go on another rant, but it really does piss me
off, because it is so irresponsible on the part of Amaco-Brent to sell a
product that allows teachers to bypass such an important part of the
teaching and learning process in ceramics. The old Robert Brent Company
would never have sold such a thing, because they would have known right away
that it is based on a severely flawed concept. Amaco has always had a big
share of the K-12 equipment market, and of course it makes sense that they
are always looking for products of genuine value to the K-12 market, but I
fear that their integrity and honor goes out the window with this thing.
I hope I am not overreacting. I don't think I am.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
gayle bair on fri 29 aug 08
I agree with you David and offered my similar opinions on the matter.
Maybe we should now wait until NCECA so we can see it, try it and give
our opinions in person.
Till then I will try (very hard) to be a silent Doubting Thomas.
Gayle Bair - where we have had about a week and a half of summer
weather this summer! We called June... Junurary but we also had a
Julurary and Augurary!
Tomorrow it's going to rain and the high will be about 65F. Not great
for my booth at the Farmers Market.
Bainbridge Island WA
Tucson AZ
gayle@claybair.com
www.claybair.com
On Aug 29, 2008, at 3:15 PM, David Hendley wrote:
> I agree with Dave's reasoning and the history lesson. In fact,
> I wrote a "Comment" column in Ceramics Monthly about this
> a few years ago (Handmade means "Hand" Made).
>
> The problem with the "centering device" is that it doesn't work.
> Any wheel thrower knows that simply having a ball of clay centered
> on a spinning wheel does not mean that the clay is centered. snip>
David McBeth on fri 29 aug 08
While I too was initially appalled at the notion of an auto-centering =
devise; I have been the studio this afternoon, throwing on the electric =
wheel because I am making largish platter/bowls. Suddenly there was a =
small but earnest voice in the back of my head chuckling at me for using =
an electric wheel, in fact a machine, to make the making of my pots =
easier. So what did the really old timers says when the kick wheel was =
motorized, what did the really really old time potters say when the clay =
pot spinning in a depression in the dirt was centered on a kickwheel, =
for those living and working in the second half of a century - remember =
a time when we fired kilns without a computers? Maybe we don't always =
realize or recognize the benefits of things new.
the ramblings of a professor on Friday afternoon of the first week of a =
new semester
Dave
David McBeth
330 B Gooch Hall
Department of Visual and Theatre Arts
University of Tennessee at Martin
Martin, Tennessee 38238
731-881-7416
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart on behalf of Paul Herman
Sent: Fri 8/29/2008 12:52 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: note from amaco
=20
Oh, Phil,
We can't throw all the professors out with the funky centering patty
maker, but we should certainly throw out the two who were cited in
connection with this stupid thing. Did you notice the lady from amaco
neglected to give out these esteemed professors' names? I wonder who
they are?
C'mon amaco lady, give us their names so Phil can chuck 'em into the
pleistocene.
Echoing Vince, this is the lamest thing I've seen in quite a while. It
looks like the marketing department is the big boss, like in so many
american businesses. Just look at the "big three" car makers here in
NA. Marketing department in charge. What a sorry disaster is all is,
huh?
Best wishes,
Paul Herman
Great Basin Pottery
Doyle, California US
www.greatbasinpottery.com/
On Aug 28, 2008, at 1:43 PM, pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET wrote:
> I realize now more than ever, the need for a 'Mechanical Arm' which
> can
> grasp and lift 'professors', 'phds' and other Academics as well as
> very
> nearly all 'retailers' and definitely all 'politicians' out of their
> habituated environments, and, plunk them neatly into ohhhhhh, say,
> the early
> Pleistocene.
>
> If they find their way to say, the Olduvai Gorge as it was then,
> they could
> leave entertaining 'notes' scratched into Sun bleached Ibex femurs or
> something, letting us now how they made out.
>
>
> These 'Arms' of course should be provided for free, as would detailed
> instructions for how to make them, and, both should be widely
> distributed...and the design would be provided with ample Zerk
> fittings for
> sure and sustained trouble-free use, too.
>
>
> Ohhhhhhhh...if wishes were Horses...
>
>
> ....sigh...
>
>
>
> Phil
> l v
lela martens on fri 29 aug 08
Well=2C sure. There is that way of looking at it=2C
but from what we have seen=2C It Doesn`t Work!
I don`t think a person who can`t centre will be able
to open and keep centred or draw the walls up and
keep centered.
I imagine a beginner who has no luck
with this thing say to self=2C `I SHOULD be able to make a
round piece since this has already done the first part=2C but
can`t.. I give up. A beginner who can centre has got the
concept of the physics..the opening and drawing up
come easily after that.
I see it a a gadget that would be used
twice and given up on=2C tossed in the corner where it=20
will sit for years because it was too expensive to=20
just chuck out.=20
2 cents from Lela > While I too was initially appalled at the notion of an =
auto-centering devise=3B I have been the studio this afternoon=2C throwing =
on the electric wheel because I am making largish platter/bowls. Suddenly t=
here was a small but earnest voice in the back of my head chuckling at me f=
or using an electric wheel=2C in fact a machine=2C to make the making of my=
pots easier. So what did the really old timers says when the kick wheel wa=
s motorized=2C what did the really really old time potters say when the cla=
y pot spinning in a depression in the dirt was centered on a kickwheel=2C f=
or those living and working in the second half of a century - remember a ti=
me when we fired kilns without a computers? Maybe we don't always realize o=
r recognize the benefits of things new.> > the ramblings of a professor on =
Friday afternoon of the first week of a new semester> > Dave> > David McBet=
h> 330 B Gooch Hall> Department of Visual and Theatre Arts> University of T=
ennessee at Martin> Martin=2C Tennessee 38238> > 731-881-7416> > -----Origi=
nal Message-----> From: Clayart on behalf of Paul Herman> Sent: Fri 8/29/20=
08 12:52 PM> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG> Subject: Re: note from amaco> > =
Oh=2C Phil=2C> > We can't throw all the professors out with the funky cente=
ring patty> maker=2C but we should certainly throw out the two who were cit=
ed in> connection with this stupid thing. Did you notice the lady from amac=
o> neglected to give out these esteemed professors' names? I wonder who> th=
ey are?> > C'mon amaco lady=2C give us their names so Phil can chuck 'em in=
to the> pleistocene.> > Echoing Vince=2C this is the lamest thing I've seen=
in quite a while. It> looks like the marketing department is the big boss=
=2C like in so many> american businesses. Just look at the "big three" car =
makers here in> NA. Marketing department in charge. What a sorry disaster i=
s all is=2C> huh?> > Best wishes=2C> > Paul Herman> > Great Basin Pottery> =
Doyle=2C California US> www.greatbasinpottery.com/> > > > > On Aug 28=2C 20=
08=2C at 1:43 PM=2C pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET wrote:> > > I realize now more than =
ever=2C the need for a 'Mechanical Arm' which> > can> > grasp and lift 'pro=
fessors'=2C 'phds' and other Academics as well as> > very> > nearly all 're=
tailers' and definitely all 'politicians' out of their> > habituated enviro=
nments=2C and=2C plunk them neatly into ohhhhhh=2C say=2C> > the early> > P=
leistocene.> >> > If they find their way to say=2C the Olduvai Gorge as it =
was then=2C> > they could> > leave entertaining 'notes' scratched into Sun =
bleached Ibex femurs or> > something=2C letting us now how they made out.> =
>> >> > These 'Arms' of course should be provided for free=2C as would deta=
iled> > instructions for how to make them=2C and=2C both should be widely> =
> distributed...and the design would be provided with ample Zerk> > fitting=
s for> > sure and sustained trouble-free use=2C too.> >> >> > Ohhhhhhhh...i=
f wishes were Horses...> >> >> > ....sigh...> >> >> >> > Phil> > l v
_________________________________________________________________
Lee Love on fri 29 aug 08
On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 2:13 PM, David McBeth wrote:
> Maybe we don't always realize or recognize the benefits of things new.
I believe we are primarily enamored with the new, novelty. So
much so, that we don't recognize what we sacrifice for many modern
"conveniences."
For example, the problem electric kilns had with fast cooling,
until the addition of computer controls or the physical impact of the
electric wheel on the human body, because it allows people to throw
stiffer clays and heavier weights.
I studied with people who started on kickwheels, but in their
retirement, switched to electric wheels. My wife Jean once asked my
late teacher Tatsuzo Shimaoka Sensei, "How do you like your electric
wheel?" He had the biggest Shimpo made. It took 3 or 4 apprentices
to unbolt it from the floor and lift it out of the hole for servicing.
Shimaoka said, "I hate it. But I have to use it because of my back."
I use the Leach, a Korean kickwheel and a Shimpo gold. I
want a Lockerbie too. My Korean wheel is in Mashiko. I have no
problems with platters on it, but haven't been using the Leach long
enough to make platters effectively on it. So I use my Shimpo.
--
Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
http://claycraft.blogspot.com/
"Let the beauty we love be what we do.
There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground." --Rumi
David Hendley on fri 29 aug 08
I agree with Dave's reasoning and the history lesson. In fact,
I wrote a "Comment" column in Ceramics Monthly about this
a few years ago (Handmade means "Hand" Made).
The problem with the "centering device" is that it doesn't work.
Any wheel thrower knows that simply having a ball of clay centered
on a spinning wheel does not mean that the clay is centered.
I learned this the hard way when, back a while ago, I kept getting
cracks in the bottom of my extra large bowls. I finally figured out
that I wasn't really "moving" all the clay in the ball when centering.
The cracking stopped when I took care to cone the clay up and
down, making sure that the particles were aligned and truly centered.
I also occasionally plop an extruded tube on the wheel and "throw"
it. I use this technique to throw tall narrow forms that are too
small to put my hand in to pull. Whenever I demonstrate this at
a workshop, there are always people who think "ah-ha, this is the
answer to centering and pulling a tall cylinder!"
Of course, the truth is, this is a terrible way to throw clay. The whole
time you are fighting it because it is not really centered and it ends
up taking much longer - good only in a few unusual situations.
I'm always disappointed when I see or hear about a product that
does not work. The "Auto-center" goes in that category. I don't
even need to try it to know the results would be beyond
disappointing.
David Hendley
Maydelle, Texas
david(at)farmpots(dot)com
http://www.farmpots.com
----- Original Message -----
While I too was initially appalled at the notion of an auto-centering
devise; I have been the studio this afternoon, throwing on the electric
wheel because I am making largish platter/bowls. Suddenly there was a small
but earnest voice in the back of my head chuckling at me for using an
electric wheel, in fact a machine, to make the making of my pots easier. So
what did the really old timers says when the kick wheel was motorized, what
did the really really old time potters say when the clay pot spinning in a
depression in the dirt was centered on a kickwheel, for those living and
working in the second half of a century - remember a time when we fired
kilns without a computers? Maybe we don't always realize or recognize the
benefits of things new.
the ramblings of a professor on Friday afternoon of the first week of a new
semester
Dave
David McBeth
Lois Ruben Aronow on fri 29 aug 08
please please - we are inching so close to the tired old discussion of
digging you own clay and firing it in a kiln feuled by your own farts.
There is a huge difference between handling a basic skill and the use of
electricity.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of
> David McBeth
> Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 3:14 PM
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Re: further thoughs on a note from amaco
>
> While I too was initially appalled at the notion of an
> auto-centering devise; I have been the studio this afternoon,
> throwing on the electric wheel because I am making largish
> platter/bowls. Suddenly there was a small but earnest voice
> in the back of my head chuckling at me for using an electric
> wheel, in fact a machine, to make the making of my pots
> easier. So what did the really old timers says when the kick
> wheel was motorized, what did the really really old time
> potters say when the clay pot spinning in a depression in the
> dirt was centered on a kickwheel, for those living and
> working in the second half of a century - remember a time
> when we fired kilns without a computers? Maybe we don't
> always realize or recognize the benefits of things new.
>
> the ramblings of a professor on Friday afternoon of the first
> week of a new semester
>
> Dave
>
> David McBeth
> 330 B Gooch Hall
> Department of Visual and Theatre Arts
> University of Tennessee at Martin
> Martin, Tennessee 38238
>
> 731-881-7416
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clayart on behalf of Paul Herman
> Sent: Fri 8/29/2008 12:52 PM
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Re: note from amaco
>
> Oh, Phil,
>
> We can't throw all the professors out with the funky
> centering patty maker, but we should certainly throw out the
> two who were cited in connection with this stupid thing. Did
> you notice the lady from amaco neglected to give out these
> esteemed professors' names? I wonder who they are?
>
> C'mon amaco lady, give us their names so Phil can chuck 'em
> into the pleistocene.
>
> Echoing Vince, this is the lamest thing I've seen in quite a
> while. It looks like the marketing department is the big
> boss, like in so many american businesses. Just look at the
> "big three" car makers here in NA. Marketing department in
> charge. What a sorry disaster is all is, huh?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Paul Herman
>
> Great Basin Pottery
> Doyle, California US
> www.greatbasinpottery.com/
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 28, 2008, at 1:43 PM, pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET wrote:
>
> > I realize now more than ever, the need for a 'Mechanical Arm' which
> > can grasp and lift 'professors', 'phds' and other Academics
> as well as
> > very nearly all 'retailers' and definitely all 'politicians' out of
> > their habituated environments, and, plunk them neatly into ohhhhhh,
> > say, the early Pleistocene.
> >
> > If they find their way to say, the Olduvai Gorge as it was
> then, they
> > could leave entertaining 'notes' scratched into Sun bleached Ibex
> > femurs or something, letting us now how they made out.
> >
> >
> > These 'Arms' of course should be provided for free, as
> would detailed
> > instructions for how to make them, and, both should be widely
> > distributed...and the design would be provided with ample Zerk
> > fittings for sure and sustained trouble-free use, too.
> >
> >
> > Ohhhhhhhh...if wishes were Horses...
> >
> >
> > ....sigh...
> >
> >
> >
> > Phil
> > l v
Lee Love on sat 30 aug 08
On 8/29/08, Lois Ruben Aronow wrote:
> There is a huge difference between handling a basic skill and the use of
> electricity.
Learning to throw on a manual wheel IS a basic skill. You
avoid many of the bad habits that an electric wheel encourages.
Better to start on a manual wheel and then switch to an electric
later.
--
Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
http://claycraft.blogspot.com/
"Let the beauty we love be what we do.
There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground." --Rumi
KATHI LESUEUR on sat 30 aug 08
On Aug 30, 2008, at 6:49 AM, Lee Love wrote:
>
> Learning to throw on a manual wheel IS a basic skill. You
> avoid many of the bad habits that an electric wheel encourages.
> Better to start on a manual wheel and then switch to an electric
> later.
>
>
I agree with Lee on this one. When I was teaching I had three wheels
in my classroom, two Shimpos and a Soldner kickwheel. (I was
teaching delinquents and had just 11 to a class). Everyone wanted to
start on the Shimpos. But, it was the kids on the Soldner who learned
fastest. When they got into trouble they forgot to kick the wheel. It
slowed down enough for them to correct the clay and continue. With
the Shimpos, when they got in trouble, they would unconsciously lean
forward. This would cause their foot to push down harder, the wheel
would go faster, and pretty soon clay was flying off of the wheel
head. I always had to watch those kids closely to get them to slow down.
Another tip I'll pass on to you clay teachers. Kids want to throw
clay. It's inevitable. So to control it I would tell them that I knew
some day they would have this irresistible urge to throw a piece of
clay. When that happened they were to come to me. I'd take them in
the back room where I had a target and they got three shots at it. I
worked. They'd come up to me and say, "Ms. LeSueur I just can't take
it any more. I need to throw some clay." I never had a problem with
clay being thrown around the room.
Kathi
David Berg on sat 30 aug 08
As with most useless inventions, time & consumer reaction
will tell whether the Brent QuickCenter will be successful.
Amaco has some investment in this device, so you know
they will try hard to market it at first. But if there are few
sales, they will drop it eventually.
There is a long history of patents for useless inventions
& some actually get marketed for a while ... until it is
obvious that no one is buying it. Then it fades away. For
example, the Ronco in the shell egg beater was really
stupid & worthless. I remember seeing TV ads for it
years ago. I don't think it is still available is it?
Other useless inventions prey on ignorance. For example,
someone recently showed me a sticker that costs $30 for
cell phones & other electronics that supposedly has a
circuit that "harmonizes" electromagnetic radiation
(whatever that means?) from the device, rendering it
harmless. That's another idea that is obviously stupid
to those who know anything about blocking electromagnetic
radiation. The only way to block radiation, as far as I know,
is with a dense shield ... e.g. lead ... like superman uses
to block the effects of kryptonite.
So, I predict that Amaco will initially try to aggressively
market the Brent QuickCenter to recoup their development
costs, and as sales flounder, it will fade away too.
David
David Berg
dberg2@comcast.net
http://bergstoneware.com/
WILLIAM JAMES on sat 30 aug 08
hi ya'll
=20
haven' posted for a while cuz i'm still a new b but thought i might have a=
little go at it.
=20
first off i would like to say new ideas what a great thing no? i think its =
what keeps the world turning.=20
=20
i had one a little over a year ago. one that seems to of brought me to this=
place in time right now.=20
=20
i was digging a hole on the side of a creek in colorado were i suspicioned =
there might be some gold. of course there was and at that time i good bit o=
f very very fine stuff." flower gold"
i needed a way to melt it so i called mama back in louisiana and asked for =
the kiln. now when you have a kiln and make no pots i would think the next =
logical thought would be " i bet i could get some clay and so on". well let=
me tell you i got some then a shimpo and glaze cones on and on and on.=20
=20
now with my quit infallible logic " lol" i will not settle for anything but=
the best. for i feel that without said best when you start something it is=
allredy lacking and the out come will be one that might not be as good as =
it might have been. and of course if i think its the best well it is an't i=
t. =20
=20
=20
with all that said i feel the same about teaching others. i think that if t=
here is a spark that some teachers see in a child they become frantic to tr=
y to keep it alive fanning it till they pass out with exhaustion. myself on=
the other hand i just pure gas on it and try for the biggest fire i can ge=
t.
=20
i will bet there are teachers out there that would do the same thing for th=
at little guy/ girl that they have been trying to get threw to. i bet they =
too would get this over rated pancake plunger and anything else possible to=
keep that spark from going out. heck mama is a teacher and i have seen som=
e of this type of kid and seen what she has gone threw to wake them up. i t=
hink in her 20 year kindergarten odyssey she has tried everything short of =
setting the little buggers on fire. hell i even hatched chickens in her cla=
ss repeatedly for years so they might be able to spell egg. "want to talk a=
bout long fire cycles"
=20
so my feeling about all this is pore all the gas you can if you get a big e=
nough fire then as we all know fire has a mind of its own and threw its inv=
asion and consumption centering will be learned and eventually become part =
of the conflagration.
=20
not every student / person can hit the curve on there own some sort of to=
ol is needed to keep them on the path.
=20
i see this thing as just that a tool for the kid the teacher anyone that mi=
ght have a go at it. and just think if used right some of you out there mig=
ht get the chance to teach one of them guys how to center when they get to =
your level that is if they haven't taught them selves.
=20
its joe coming at you from the rig=20
digging a hole in the big state of Wy. looking for black gold this time sou=
th of rock sprngs
=20
william "joe" james
Blackhawk Co.=20
william.james@msn.com=20
dig a hole you never know what you might find
=20
=20
=20
P.S. thanks guys clayart has been cutting the curve and i think the path i=
s getting smother .
=20
=20
=20
=20
> Date: Fri=2C 29 Aug 2008 21:34:34 -0700> From: vpitelka@DTCCOM.NET> Subje=
ct: Re: further thoughs on a note from amaco> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG>=
> Dave McBeth wrote:> "While I too was initially appalled at the notion of=
an auto-centering> devise=3B I have been the studio this afternoon=2C thro=
wing on the electric> wheel because I am making largish platter/bowls. Sudd=
enly there was a small> but earnest voice in the back of my head chuckling =
at me for using an> electric wheel=2C in fact a machine=2C to make the maki=
ng of my pots easier. So> what did the really old timers says when the kick=
wheel was motorized=2C what> did the really really old time potters say wh=
en the clay pot spinning in a> depression in the dirt was centered on a kic=
kwheel=2C for those living and> working in the second half of a century - r=
emember a time when we fired> kilns without a computers? Maybe we don't alw=
ays realize or recognize the> benefits of things new."> > Aww Dave=2C you j=
ust wish you had invented it! Seriously=2C the power wheel> might have had =
some kick- and treadle-wheel purists upset=2C but it was of> course a great=
idea=2C and it was inevitable. There's no comparison to this> ridiculous l=
ittle contraption - the Brent QuickCenter. Every teacher who> uses this dev=
ice will be doing a disservice to his or her students=2C robbing> them of t=
he essential experience and skill of centering. Every teacher who> uses it =
will be compromising their own teaching ethics by taking a shortcut> rather=
than learning to center and to teach centering=2C and by doing so will> de=
mean themselves. By marketing this thing to K-12 teachers=2C Brent demeans>=
themselves and diminishes the worth of all of their products.> > If Brent =
is really seriously marketing this thing to K-12 teachers=2C then I> am don=
e with Brent. I have always liked Brent wheels and slabrollers=2C and> have=
recommended them to other people=2C but no more. What they are doing is> a=
con - it is sleazy.> > Sorry Dave=2C I didn't mean to go on another rant=
=2C but it really does piss me> off=2C because it is so irresponsible on th=
e part of Amaco-Brent to sell a> product that allows teachers to bypass suc=
h an important part of the> teaching and learning process in ceramics. The =
old Robert Brent Company> would never have sold such a thing=2C because the=
y would have known right away> that it is based on a severely flawed concep=
t. Amaco has always had a big> share of the K-12 equipment market=2C and of=
course it makes sense that they> are always looking for products of genuin=
e value to the K-12 market=2C but I> fear that their integrity and honor go=
es out the window with this thing.> > I hope I am not overreacting. I don't=
think I am.> - Vince> > Vince Pitelka> Appalachian Center for Craft> Tenne=
ssee Tech University> vpitelka@dtccom.net=3B wpitelka@tntech.edu> http://iw=
eb.tntech.edu/wpitelka=
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