Nils Lou on sun 5 oct 08
For John Byler's question on kiln floors. I think the first =
consideration is to have the foundation
level=97any way you want to. As for cement blocks, the weight of the =
kiln is easily supported with
the holes up or sidewise where imho, there is better air circulation and =
less trapped heat. Finally,
in considering dewpoint equalization I lay a sheet of 1/8" or 3/16" =
expanded metal on top of the=20
foundation so the floor "sees" the same air temperature as the walls and =
roof. This is an important
design consideration in commercial kiln design.=20
nils lou, professor of art
AAVC department
www.linfield.edu/~nlou
503.883.2274
"Play is the essence of creativity", Carl Jung
jonathan byler on mon 6 oct 08
Well,
we bit the bullet and mixed up a batch of mason mix with sand and
laid on a nice coat on the top edges of the blocks. The floor we are
building on is almost dead level, so this was not a problem, but the
blocks were uneven in height. So with the mortar on, we laid down
the durrock boards that I cut last week and weighted everything down
with a ton of hard bricks. I foolishly didn't keep them stored flat
so there was a slight bend to them, but this worked its way out with
the weight of the bricks. Everything is as level as I am going to
get it for now, maybe 1/8" over 5'-6'. When the mortar cures a bit,
the fun starts. we will begin laying up the floor sometime the end
of the week. The plan at the moment is probably going to be two
layers of soft brick, with the second layer staggered 1/2 brick to
the back to get better overlap. then the hardbrick overtop of that.
Will try and get up some blog or something to post pictures as we
progress.
About the recommended 1/8" expansion gaps in the hard brick walls:
I was wondering if those won't just get filled up and glazed over
from the Na in the atmosphere rendering them somewhat of a moot point?
thanks,
jon
jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849
On Oct 6, 2008, at 5:16 PM, James F wrote:
> Without arguing the merits of holes-up versus holes-on-the-sides,
> IF you choose to lay the block with the holes on the sides, you can
> purchase 3-holed block from many brick yards and concrete
> companies. An engineer could calculate it, but I would imagine
> that they are many times stronger on their sides than 2-holed
> block. Last time I bought them for a gas kiln (about 3 years ago),
> they were only about $1 per block more than the home center cheapo
> 2-holed blocks.
>
> All the best.
>
> ...James
>
>
>> I have always used concrete
>> blocks the wrong way technically, without incident in over 40
>> years of
>> kiln building. I always liked the idea of the base being open, so it
>> could cool the concrete block.
>>
>> Bill Merrill
>>
>>
>
>>> As for cement blocks, the weight of the
>>> kiln is easily supported with
>>> the holes up or sidewise where imho, there is better air
>>> circulation and less trapped heat.
>>>
>>> nils lou, professor of art
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live.
> http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-
> Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008
jonathan byler on mon 6 oct 08
won't that east up the bottom soft bricks as they expand and =20
contract? expanded metal being as rough as it is, I could see it =20
slowly scraping away at the bottom of the soft bricks, leaving brick =20
dust and bricks sitting directly on the foundation with a layer of =20
expanded metal imbedded and no longer holding the bottom of the kiln =20
off of the bricks.
jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849
On Oct 5, 2008, at 12:42 PM, Nils Lou wrote:
> For John Byler's question on kiln floors. I think the first =20
> consideration is to have the foundation
> level=97any way you want to. As for cement blocks, the weight of the =20=
> kiln is easily supported with
> the holes up or sidewise where imho, there is better air =20
> circulation and less trapped heat. Finally,
> in considering dewpoint equalization I lay a sheet of 1/8" or 3/16" =20=
> expanded metal on top of the
> foundation so the floor "sees" the same air temperature as the =20
> walls and roof. This is an important
> design consideration in commercial kiln design.
>
> nils lou, professor of art
> AAVC department
> www.linfield.edu/~nlou
> 503.883.2274
> "Play is the essence of creativity", Carl Jung
Bill Merrill on mon 6 oct 08
Using a ceramic fiberboard saves lots of grief when using a concrete
block foundation. The fiberboard is fairly large so it also prevents any
air from
leaking into the kiln through the floor. Lay soft brick on their edge
so the first row of floor brick is 5" high. Then lay your hard brick in
a stretcher patter over the soft brick. If you want another layer of
hard brick splits can be added over that. I have always used concrete
blocks the wrong way technically, without incident in over 40 years of
kiln building. I always liked the idea of the base being open, so it
could cool the concrete block. With the fiber board, soft and hard
brick on the base, a kiln can be built without crushing any brick.
Bill Merrill
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of jonathan
byler
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 10:56 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: soda or any kiln construction
won't that east up the bottom soft bricks as they expand and =20
contract? expanded metal being as rough as it is, I could see it =20
slowly scraping away at the bottom of the soft bricks, leaving brick =20
dust and bricks sitting directly on the foundation with a layer of =20
expanded metal imbedded and no longer holding the bottom of the kiln =20
off of the bricks.
jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849
On Oct 5, 2008, at 12:42 PM, Nils Lou wrote:
> For John Byler's question on kiln floors. I think the first =20
> consideration is to have the foundation
> level-any way you want to. As for cement blocks, the weight of the =20
> kiln is easily supported with
> the holes up or sidewise where imho, there is better air =20
> circulation and less trapped heat. Finally,
> in considering dewpoint equalization I lay a sheet of 1/8" or 3/16" =20
> expanded metal on top of the
> foundation so the floor "sees" the same air temperature as the =20
> walls and roof. This is an important
> design consideration in commercial kiln design.
>
> nils lou, professor of art
> AAVC department
> www.linfield.edu/~nlou
> 503.883.2274
> "Play is the essence of creativity", Carl Jung
James F on mon 6 oct 08
Without arguing the merits of holes-up versus holes-on-the-sides=2C IF you =
choose to lay the block with the holes on the sides=2C you can purchase 3-h=
oled block from many brick yards and concrete companies. An engineer could=
calculate it=2C but I would imagine that they are many times stronger on t=
heir sides than 2-holed block. Last time I bought them for a gas kiln (abo=
ut 3 years ago)=2C they were only about $1 per block more than the home cen=
ter cheapo 2-holed blocks.
All the best.
...James
> I have always used concrete
> blocks the wrong way technically=2C without incident in over 40 years of
> kiln building. I always liked the idea of the base being open=2C so it
> could cool the concrete block.
>=20
> Bill Merrill
>=20
>=20
> > As for cement blocks=2C the weight of the =20
> > kiln is easily supported with
> > the holes up or sidewise where imho=2C there is better air =20
> > circulation and less trapped heat.
> >
> > nils lou=2C professor of art
_________________________________________________________________
Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live.
http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!5=
50F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008=
Vince Pitelka on tue 7 oct 08
Jon Byler wrote:
I was wondering if those won't just get filled up and glazed over from the
Na in the atmosphere rendering them somewhat of a moot point?
Jon -
That's a very good question. What I recommended was more of a generic
expansion joint for hard brick, but I have built salt and soda kilns with no
expansion joints at all. Five or six years down the line the frame starts
to bulge when the brick begin to expand from flux penetration, and
eventually the frame will start to burst around the base and must be
extended and re-welded. That's the start of the downhill slope to
rebuilding. I never witnessed a frame popping, and never heard it. We just
notice eventually that a weld has split, and we splice in a patch and
re-weld it, or if it is in an area that doesn't matter we just let it go.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Caleb smith on wed 8 oct 08
Has anyone done this in a fiber kiln?
> Date: Wed=2C 8 Oct 2008 14:19:30 -0500
> From: jebyler2@GMAIL.COM
> Subject: Re: soda or any kiln construction
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>=20
> thanks!
>=20
> Also=2C I have heard a lot about people spraying a shino glaze inside
> of their salt/soda kilns to protect the brick. I can't remember if
> this has been discussed before... Does anyone want to weigh in on
> the merits of doing this v.s. leaving the bricks (empire-s) bare? any
> favorite recipes=2C and reasons why that particular recipe is better
> than others?
>=20
> -jon
>=20
> jon byler
> 3-D Building Coordinator
> Art Department
> Auburn University=2C AL 36849
>=20
> On Oct 7=2C 2008=2C at 8:23 PM=2C Vince Pitelka wrote:
>=20
> > Jon Byler wrote:
> > I was wondering if those won't just get filled up and glazed over
> > from the
> > Na in the atmosphere rendering them somewhat of a moot point?
> >
> > Jon -
> > That's a very good question. What I recommended was more of a generic
> > expansion joint for hard brick=2C but I have built salt and soda
> > kilns with no
> > expansion joints at all. Five or six years down the line the frame
> > starts
> > to bulge when the brick begin to expand from flux penetration=2C and
> > eventually the frame will start to burst around the base and must be
> > extended and re-welded. That's the start of the downhill slope to
> > rebuilding. I never witnessed a frame popping=2C and never heard it.
> > We just
> > notice eventually that a weld has split=2C and we splice in a patch and
> > re-weld it=2C or if it is in an area that doesn't matter we just let
> > it go.
> > - Vince
> >
> > Vince Pitelka
> > Appalachian Center for Craft
> > Tennessee Tech University
> > vpitelka@dtccom.net=3B wpitelka@tntech.edu
> > http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
_________________________________________________________________
See how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97at home=2C work=2C or on=
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jonathan byler on wed 8 oct 08
thanks!
Also, I have heard a lot about people spraying a shino glaze inside
of their salt/soda kilns to protect the brick. I can't remember if
this has been discussed before... Does anyone want to weigh in on
the merits of doing this v.s. leaving the bricks (empire-s) bare? any
favorite recipes, and reasons why that particular recipe is better
than others?
-jon
jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849
On Oct 7, 2008, at 8:23 PM, Vince Pitelka wrote:
> Jon Byler wrote:
> I was wondering if those won't just get filled up and glazed over
> from the
> Na in the atmosphere rendering them somewhat of a moot point?
>
> Jon -
> That's a very good question. What I recommended was more of a generic
> expansion joint for hard brick, but I have built salt and soda
> kilns with no
> expansion joints at all. Five or six years down the line the frame
> starts
> to bulge when the brick begin to expand from flux penetration, and
> eventually the frame will start to burst around the base and must be
> extended and re-welded. That's the start of the downhill slope to
> rebuilding. I never witnessed a frame popping, and never heard it.
> We just
> notice eventually that a weld has split, and we splice in a patch and
> re-weld it, or if it is in an area that doesn't matter we just let
> it go.
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Craft
> Tennessee Tech University
> vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Vince Pitelka on wed 8 oct 08
Jon Byler wrote:
"I have heard a lot about people spraying a shino glaze inside
of their salt/soda kilns to protect the brick. I can't remember if
this has been discussed before... Does anyone want to weigh in on
the merits of doing this v.s. leaving the bricks (empire-s) bare? any
favorite recipes, and reasons why that particular recipe is better
than others?"
Jon -
A cone-10 shino is similar in composition to what would end up accumulating
on the bricks anyway over time in a salt or soda kiln. Sealing the surface
right at the start helps retard the penetration of sodium vapors into the
brick. Used a thinned cone-10 shino and spray on a saturating coat. Cover
the entire hotface except for the floor.
It's not an absolute seal. Cracks will open up from expansion and
contraction, and eventually the sodium vapors will penetrate the brick, but
if you spray-coat the hotface with a shino it will increase the life of the
kiln.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Hank Murrow on thu 9 oct 08
On Oct 8, 2008, at 7:56 PM, Caleb smith wrote:
> Has anyone done this in a fiber kiln?
>
>
>> I have heard a lot about people spraying a shino glaze inside
>> of their salt/soda kilns to protect the brick.
Dear Caleb;
I hope someone who has will respond to your question. I build fiber
kilns, and i would not spray shino or any other glaze on the fiber
lining. I believe it wouyld just promote spalling of the hot face.
Cheers, Hank in Eugene
www.murrow.biz/hank
Caleb smith on thu 9 oct 08
I guessed the same. Even for soft brick it seems likely to hurt more than =
help.
> Date: Thu=2C 9 Oct 2008 06:27:33 -0700
> From: hmurrow@EFN.ORG
> Subject: Re: soda or any kiln construction
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>=20
> On Oct 8=2C 2008=2C at 7:56 PM=2C Caleb smith wrote:
>=20
> > Has anyone done this in a fiber kiln?
> >
> >
> >> I have heard a lot about people spraying a shino glaze inside
> >> of their salt/soda kilns to protect the brick.
>=20
> Dear Caleb=3B
>=20
> I hope someone who has will respond to your question. I build fiber
> kilns=2C and i would not spray shino or any other glaze on the fiber
> lining. I believe it wouyld just promote spalling of the hot face.
>=20
> Cheers=2C Hank in Eugene
>=20
> www.murrow.biz/hank
_________________________________________________________________
See how Windows connects the people=2C information=2C and fun that are part=
of your life.
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Lee Love on thu 9 oct 08
I have super duty softbricks in my wood kiln that I would do likght
soda in, and for 5 years, fired about every other month, and they have
held up very well. There are a few high duty softbricks in the arch
which are still serviceable, but have worn more and needed occasional
brushing.
The funny thing, is that in the back of the kiln, where the flame
enters the ware chamber, I put kiln wash on the lower super duty
softbrick and those wore more than the bare bricks, the wash spalling
off.
I don't know if these superduty bricks are available in the USA.
On sight, they look different, because the holes in them are
completely spherical. They use alumina pellets to make the voids,
the pellets melting out in the manufacturing process. They cost me
something like $6.50 to $7.00 each.
I didn't use a lot of soda. In the last firings, I started
dipping unglazed ware in a soda solution which was better for coverage
than spraying it in.
--
Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://heartclay.blogspot.com/
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
http://claycraft.blogspot.com/
"Let the beauty we love be what we do.
There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground." --Rumi
jonathan byler on thu 9 oct 08
All the conventional wisdom and common sense available points to the =20
fact that a kiln with a fiber lined interior would not be cost =20
effective for soda firing. I would think it would deteriorate in =20
short order as the soda vapors penetrated the extremely porous fiber =20
blanket.
jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849
On Oct 8, 2008, at 9:56 PM, Caleb smith wrote:
> Has anyone done this in a fiber kiln?
>
>
>
>> Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 14:19:30 -0500
>> From: jebyler2@GMAIL.COM
>> Subject: Re: soda or any kiln construction
>> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>>
>> thanks!
>>
>> Also, I have heard a lot about people spraying a shino glaze inside
>> of their salt/soda kilns to protect the brick. I can't remember if
>> this has been discussed before... Does anyone want to weigh in on
>> the merits of doing this v.s. leaving the bricks (empire-s) bare? any
>> favorite recipes, and reasons why that particular recipe is better
>> than others?
>>
>> -jon
>>
>> jon byler
>> 3-D Building Coordinator
>> Art Department
>> Auburn University, AL 36849
>>
>> On Oct 7, 2008, at 8:23 PM, Vince Pitelka wrote:
>>
>>> Jon Byler wrote:
>>> I was wondering if those won't just get filled up and glazed over
>>> from the
>>> Na in the atmosphere rendering them somewhat of a moot point?
>>>
>>> Jon -
>>> That's a very good question. What I recommended was more of a =20
>>> generic
>>> expansion joint for hard brick, but I have built salt and soda
>>> kilns with no
>>> expansion joints at all. Five or six years down the line the frame
>>> starts
>>> to bulge when the brick begin to expand from flux penetration, and
>>> eventually the frame will start to burst around the base and must be
>>> extended and re-welded. That's the start of the downhill slope to
>>> rebuilding. I never witnessed a frame popping, and never heard it.
>>> We just
>>> notice eventually that a weld has split, and we splice in a patch =20=
>>> and
>>> re-weld it, or if it is in an area that doesn't matter we just let
>>> it go.
>>> - Vince
>>>
>>> Vince Pitelka
>>> Appalachian Center for Craft
>>> Tennessee Tech University
>>> vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
>>> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> See how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97at home, work, or =20=
> on the go.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/
Ivor and Olive Lewis on fri 10 oct 08
Dear Jonathan Byler,
Using a glaze recipe as a protective coating to prevent the
degradation of the brickwork may be a suggestion. But it is founded on
the experience of some potters and ceramic artists as perusal of
Clayart archives will show.
To me, the main problem is the lack of knowledge of the chemistry. As
I see it Sodium Chloride and Sodium Carbonate (or bicarbonate) would
participate in dissimilar chemical reactions with the main ingredients
of Shino style glazes, that is, mixtures which are predominantly
Felspar minerals and Clay.
All of which leads to questions about effects of heat on clay, ceramic
fibre or each individual mineral ingredient in the glaze in the
presence of Soda or Salt vapour.
I suggest you listen to Vince Pitelka. His experience is global. Mine
is limited to using Common Salt and I did not incorporate expansion
joints or enclose my brickwork in a steel frame.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.
jonathan byler on fri 10 oct 08
> "I suggest you listen to Vince Pitelka. His experience is global. "
Awww. that would be too easy...
Vince's (and other's) suggestions and help have been most helpful. I
just finished laying up the two bottom layers of softbrick, and am
almost done rigging up our rock-saw to cut the hard bricks. Nice
thing with that saw is that it has power feed so that I can have it
cut my bricks for me as I lay up the walls.
best,
jon
jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849
On Oct 9, 2008, at 10:48 PM, Ivor and Olive Lewis wrote:
| |
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