dan Wilson on tue 2 dec 97
Dan,
Selling "seconds" is a well established and accepted practice within the
pottery (manufacturing) tradition. Recovering costs in this manner is
prudent and ethical from a business standpoint. Selling seconds is also of
benifit to consumers who need something useful like pottery but cannot
afford the high prices our "first order" pottery commands.
I guess it (ethics) becomes a matter of situation and may range from the
extremly personal in which we would give a piece (even though flawed) to
someone because of our relationship with them to a business situation in
which profit is imperative for continued existence.
Dan Wilson
Ric Swenson on wed 3 dec 97
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Dan,
>
> Selling "seconds" is a well established and accepted practice within the
>pottery (manufacturing) tradition. Recovering costs in this manner is
>prudent and ethical from a business standpoint. Selling seconds is also of
>benifit to consumers who need something useful like pottery but cannot
>afford the high prices our "first order" pottery commands.
>
>I guess it (ethics) becomes a matter of situation and may range from the
>extremly personal in which we would give a piece (even though flawed) to
>someone because of our relationship with them to a business situation in
>which profit is imperative for continued existence.
>
>Dan Wilson
------------
have been just reading the thread on "ethics"....the issue of quality of
wares that can/should be sold.
my opinions only....
I agree with Dan Wilson that seconds have a place in the studio. They can
be sold as long as they are marked as such ...and of course the price
reflects the quality difference between your "top shelf" wares and the
seconds...below.
An entire huge sales floor of the Grist Mill at Bennington Potters is
dedicated to the proposition that bargain hunters will buy seconds...in
massive quantities. Even "kiln run" is sold...all pieces except "thirds"
at less 30 %. ( Quite frankly, the place wouldn't exist without sales of
'seconds'. )
Inspecting pieces as they emerge from the kiln....grading them for " Show
quality", (the magic pieces that now and then emerge from the fire that
are truly touched by the kiln gods.) then "First Quality" ( your best
work....no hits no runs, no errors)
"Seconds" (ie. slight warps, the odd pinhole, off color/texture,
crazed/crackled glaze, slight chip or crack maybe? ...ad infinitum )
.......and finally "THIRDS" ("pitchers", dunts, massive cracks, terminally
ugly, un- healthy looking... or feeling, cups with lacerator lips, bowls
with cracks ...that won't even make it as flower pots, etc.) Asside from
using epoxy to reattach a handle to my personal mug, I will rarely use
putty or glue or try to repair a damaged piece. It is wasted time for the
most part...IMHO.
If I can't decide what to do with a piece, it has something I really like
happening, BUT it also has a terminal problem...a crack or chip...or ??
....often I will just put it up on a shelf in a corner of the studio. The
piece will be appreciated, visually, for its good qualities for a year or
two...and eventually become landfill.
If you are making only "show pieces" and you command high prices, you
must guard your quality reputation with a vengenace. Most studio potters
existing in the real world can afford to sell their seconds to the bargain
seekers. Some potters grind their name off the bottom...like snipping the
tag on a second quality garment...so the piece will not come back to
somehow "haunt" them later.
Just my random thoughts regarding quality........ on a bright, crisp and
sunny Vermont morning.
***********************************************************
FROM : Ric Swenson, Bennington College, Route 67 - A
Bennington, Vermont 05201 - 6001 U.S.A.
( 802 ) 440 - 4621 or fax ( 802 ) 440 - 4582
email: rswenson@bennington.edu
"Opinions expressed are mine..... usual disclaimers apply."
************************************************************
" Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like an avacado ".
Ron or Sue Corl on wed 3 dec 97
I am kind of shocked how long this discussion has been going on. Some
synonyms of ethics are moral principles, code of right and wrong,
conduct, and decency. Can we really bring moral value into the field of
ceramics? I think it can be stated with simple good business
principles.
First, if the ceramic piece includes anything that is not fired ie.
paint, bondo, bamboo, ribbons. . .it becomes a multi-media piece and
should be sold as such. Obviously a bamboo teapot handle can be readily
seen and probably does not need to be pointed out to a customer. On the
other hand, a filled crack or even paint may not be so obvious and
should be pointed out. This does not make these pieces second rate, just
multi-media. Whether it's functional or not, has nothing to do with it.
Second, there is nothing wrong with 'happy accidents' from the fire.
Customers are not as aware as we are of the changes that can impact a
piece at over 1000 degrees. Most people have no idea what goes into the
ceramic making process. If these 'altered by fire' pieces are sold as
such one could probably ask MORE for them. People love magic like dogs
love trucks!
I don't know how this discussion went from 'repairing cracks' to 'should
I grog my seconds or sell 'em?' but I don't think that's what's
important. Honesty and integrity for the entire potters community is.
Sell your seconds as seconds or firsts. It's all in the presentation as
long as that presentation is honest. Other potters can't judge that for
you but be honest with what you are selling.
I robustly agree with selling your seconds so those of us not able to
afford handmade pottery can still feel connected with the craft
community. That's important. Unless it's dangerous (shivering, cracked),
sell those seconds cheap or give them away instead of breaking them.
Of course there always is the issue of putting your good name on
something that is not up to your normal standards. You gotta decide.
EXCERPTED FROM THE RANTINGS OF A BABY LUNATIC !!!!
Ron
Big Baby Head Pottery
Ray Carlton on wed 3 dec 97
i will throw in my 10 cents worth here..I live in a beautifull area out in
the bush a long way from the city and because of this many economically
challenged people [once called poor] people live here because of the low
rents in the district..I sell all of my seconds in a huge sale just b4 xmas
at the local craft shop and it is a great opportunity for these people to
buy at prices they can afford There are many arguments regarding what to do
with seconds and i have over the years smashed them and sold them. If you
sell seconds in an area it is very difficult to sell first quality work
there. So if you decide to sell your seconds keep them in one area
cheers
At 08:47 02/12/97 EST, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Dan,
>
> Selling "seconds" is a well established and accepted practice within the
>pottery (manufacturing) tradition. Recovering costs in this manner is
>prudent and ethical from a business standpoint. Selling seconds is also of
>benifit to consumers who need something useful like pottery but cannot
>afford the high prices our "first order" pottery commands.
>
>I guess it (ethics) becomes a matter of situation and may range from the
>extremly personal in which we would give a piece (even though flawed) to
>someone because of our relationship with them to a business situation in
>which profit is imperative for continued existence.
>
>Dan Wilson
>
>
raycarlt@valylink.net.au
Ray Carlton
McMahons Creek Victoria Australia 3799
douglas gray on thu 4 dec 97
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I am kind of shocked how long this discussion has been going on. Some
> synonyms of ethics are moral principles, code of right and wrong,
> conduct, and decency. Can we really bring moral value into the field of
> ceramics? I think it can be stated with simple good business
> principles.
I love clean concise thinking and straight forward answers, but...
I think we can and do bring moral principles into the field of ceramics.
Perhaps it is because of this moral intrusion that we have ceramics in the first
place. Why do we waste our time making something by hand when it can be
produced much quicker and more effeciently by machines? Obviously there are
those among us that belive there is something right and decent about making
things by hand, furthermore, it has value, perhaps more value than the
industrial counterparts. This philosophical conduct has kept the skills and
techniques alive so that generation after generation can learn to respect and
appreciate the power and creativity of the individual.
I think the crux of your argument, however, is correct. And I agree with your
statement about the honesty and integrity of the pottery community. People,
however, will have differing opinions about most things, including moral
principles and even poor little cracks. We set our own standards, and are
accountable to them.
enjoying the continued debate and the philosophical bent
doug
> Second, there is nothing wrong with 'happy accidents' from the fire.
> Customers are not as aware as we are of the changes that can impact a
> piece at over 1000 degrees. Most people have no idea what goes into the
> ceramic making process. If these 'altered by fire' pieces are sold as
> such one could probably ask MORE for them. People love magic like dogs
> love trucks!
>
> I don't know how this discussion went from 'repairing cracks' to 'should
> I grog my seconds or sell 'em?' but I don't think that's what's
> important. Honesty and integrity for the entire potters community is.
>
> Sell your seconds as seconds or firsts. It's all in the presentation as
> long as that presentation is honest. Other potters can't judge that for
> you but be honest with what you are selling.
>
> I robustly agree with selling your seconds so those of us not able to
> afford handmade pottery can still feel connected with the craft
> community. That's important. Unless it's dangerous (shivering, cracked),
> sell those seconds cheap or give them away instead of breaking them.
> Ron
>
============================================================================ =)
Douglas E. Gray
Assistant Professor of Art, Ceramics
Francis Marion Univeristy
Florence, South Carolina 29501
dgray@fmarion.edu
Ron or Sue Corl on fri 5 dec 97
Hi Doug,
Thanks for replying intelligently. I however disagree with the idea of
more moral value being placed on handmade objects. I certainly think
that more human value (whatever that is) is placed on them.
I believe, like a collective consciousness, that one human knows when
another human has made something by hand---maybe. It seems to have a
certain 'soul'....
Oh heck. Just like scrooge said on Christmas morning, "I don't know
anything, I really don't know anything, I never did know anything!"
What about an artist who throws so perfectly and uses ribs that one just
can't tell if it's handmade or not? Maybe there are some electric
synapsis created between pot and potter. (Ron way out on a small limb
now).
Anyway, I think that the word moral still implies right and wrong
according to societal norms. Potters started as indentured servants not
including prehistory. Nothing moral about that.
I am a big believer in oral tradition and I think that potters do that
better than anyone else. We have an obligation to the past to continue
that tradition. There is nothing moral about it. If we want the craft to
continue it must be done. There is no right or wrong.
We agree on almost everything here as you stated and I guess it's silly
to e-mail endlessly about semantics.
So KEEP POTTERY ALIVE, TELL THE STORIES! ! ! !
Thanks,
Ron
Big Baby Head Pottery
douglas gray wrote:
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I think we can and do bring moral principles into the field of ceramics.
> Perhaps it is because of this moral intrusion that we have ceramics in the fir
> place. Why do we waste our time making something by hand when it can be
> produced much quicker and more effeciently by machines? Obviously there are
> those among us that belive there is something right and decent about making
> things by hand, furthermore, it has value, perhaps more value than the
> industrial counterparts.
ClayCoyote@aol.com on fri 5 dec 97
We also sell secondds when they are functionally fine. BUT, we found that
one of our good customers, (who also happens to be our bankers wif....added
incentive), who buys seconds as well as firsts, was giving them to others as
gifts. Not wanting to confront her, we bean marking the pieces "blem" in
magic marker on the bottom. That way if our name goes to someone else, at
least they'll know that we know that it isn't first quality. After many
dishwashings, the blem will slowly fade away.
Also, we picked up Don Kopycinski's method of seconds pricing. $2.50 a
pound. Makes it fun and EASY to price.
P.S. Some time ago we picked up a large MacKenzie platter marked as a blem
and with a couple of rim cracks that had been filled. The glazing was way
too lovely and as a second was the only way we could have ever afforded this
one. The glaze is still lovely (temmoku with green and white poured over)
and we use it almost daily.
Tom Wirt
Clay Coyote Pottery
Hutchinson, MN
claypot@hutchtel.net
Stephen Mills on fri 5 dec 97
I agree absolutely here. I my small shop in Bath we used to put the
seconds table out in front on the pavement on Saturdays. Brought a lot
of people in, and boy the money came in handy!!
Steve
Bath UK
Where it's now just b.....y cold
In message , Ric Swenson writes
>
>have been just reading the thread on "ethics"....the issue of quality of
>wares that can/should be sold.
>
>my opinions only....
>
>I agree with Dan Wilson that seconds have a place in the studio. They can
>be sold as long as they are marked as such ...and of course the price
>reflects the quality difference between your "top shelf" wares and the
>seconds...below.
>
>An entire huge sales floor of the Grist Mill at Bennington Potters is
>dedicated to the proposition that bargain hunters will buy seconds...in
>massive quantities. Even "kiln run" is sold...all pieces except "thirds"
>at less 30 %. ( Quite frankly, the place wouldn't exist without sales of
>'seconds'. )
>
>Inspecting pieces as they emerge from the kiln....grading them for " Show
>quality", (the magic pieces that now and then emerge from the fire that
>are truly touched by the kiln gods.) then "First Quality" ( your best
>work....no hits no runs, no errors)
>
>"Seconds" (ie. slight warps, the odd pinhole, off color/texture,
>crazed/crackled glaze, slight chip or crack maybe? ...ad infinitum )
>
>......and finally "THIRDS" ("pitchers", dunts, massive cracks, terminally
>ugly, un- healthy looking... or feeling, cups with lacerator lips, bowls
>with cracks ...that won't even make it as flower pots, etc.) Asside from
>using epoxy to reattach a handle to my personal mug, I will rarely use
>putty or glue or try to repair a damaged piece. It is wasted time for the
>most part...IMHO.
>
>If I can't decide what to do with a piece, it has something I really like
>happening, BUT it also has a terminal problem...a crack or chip...or ??
>...often I will just put it up on a shelf in a corner of the studio. The
>piece will be appreciated, visually, for its good qualities for a year or
>two...and eventually become landfill.
>
>If you are making only "show pieces" and you command high prices, you
>must guard your quality reputation with a vengenace. Most studio potters
>existing in the real world can afford to sell their seconds to the bargain
>seekers. Some potters grind their name off the bottom...like snipping the
>tag on a second quality garment...so the piece will not come back to
>somehow "haunt" them later.
>
>Just my random thoughts regarding quality........ on a bright, crisp and
>sunny Vermont morning.
>
>***********************************************************
>FROM : Ric Swenson, Bennington College, Route 67 - A
> Bennington, Vermont 05201 - 6001 U.S.A.
>( 802 ) 440 - 4621 or fax ( 802 ) 440 - 4582
>email: rswenson@bennington.edu
>"Opinions expressed are mine..... usual disclaimers apply."
>************************************************************
>" Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like an avacado ".
>
--
Steve Mills
Bath
UK
home tel: (44) (0)1225 311699
work tel: (44) (0)1225 337046
marvin s flowerman on sat 6 dec 97
STEVE!
Marvin Flowerman here; looking for you; unable to get through on the
fax number you gave me; do you have an e-mail address?
I can be reached at marvpots@aol.com and would like to discuss some
things with you.
Hope to hear from you soon.
All the best.
Marvin
Michael McDowell on sun 7 dec 97
------------------
Hi gang=21
Geez, I've been awfully chatty lately. Hope you don't mind me chipping in
on this thread too. I store my seconds away on shelves with curtains in
front of them, out in my barn. It's often a judgement call, whether a piece
is a second or not. Small blemishes or off color glazes might be given a
chance in the consignment gallery as firsts for a while, but after a while,
maybe a year, if the pieces are still around, they're seconds, no matter if
I like them or not. I call that =22shopworn=22 ware.
I have a simple policy for pricing my seconds. I put price tags on them
equal to what I would have charged for them as firsts. Then, when I offer
them for sale, it's at =22one half marked price=22. This generally seems to =
be
a good way to get them moving, and I'm still getting roughly what I would
for wholesaling firsts. Of course, some pieces are sooo ugly they become
shopworn as seconds. One strategy I've used to good effect for them is to
offer to let customers smash them for 25 cents a piece=21 Be sure to provide
safety goggles and a safe area if you decide to try this. You will get
takers=21
As to concern over our seconds ending up being given as gifts, or
prominently displayed where we'd much rather see firsts in their place.
Consider the dictum of the fame game =22Any press is good press=22.
Michael McDowell
Whatcom County, WA USA
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