bill geisinger on tue 7 oct 08
I don't get it, it seems like there is a lot of excuses for not taking care
to dispose of materials in a responsible way. It's easy to blame others for
doing worse damage and to rely on others to remove your waste. I do not
believe just because our material comes from the ground that we can dump it
where we simply want to. The plants, animals and people I live with (in my
neighborhood) should not be exposed to anything that is not native to my
area. That is not hard to understand.
It's easy to take material to the proper dump. It's easy to fire it a little
at a time in waste bowls in odd places in the kiln.
Why are some of you still making excuses and having a such a difficult time
being responsible?
bill in sebastopol
David Hendley on wed 8 oct 08
I don't get this.
The plants I live with like, no love, extra minerals.
Before planting, the first step for all gardeners in my
area is to "lime" the soil because it is rather acid.
Lime is whiting.
Check out any organic gardening book and it will offer
the same advice.
Ranchers buy calcium carbonate and dolomite by the
ton, to spread on their pastures. They buy bentonite
to stop leaks in their ponds.
Far from being "waste", benign glaze ingredients are
a beneficial addition to most soils.
Why do you think wood ashes can be used as glazes?
Because the trees ingested all those minerals from soil
and water, and that's what's left over after the wood is
burned. Minerals need to be returned to the soil as
plants extract it.
The notion that people and plants should not be exposed
to anything "not native to the area" is more than hard
to understand - it is absurd.
Just today I have been "exposed" to a organic banana
from Costa Rica, strawberries from Watsonville,
California, and a corduroy shirt from China. And my
garden plants were subjected to compost, made from
vegetable waste from who-knows-where.
Living by this criteria would result in a lifestyle of,
let's see, approximately, the Stone Age. Ancient Egyptians
5000 years ago were already "exposing" themselves to
spices not native to the area.
It is a needless waste of energy to fire glaze materials in
"waste bowls". And what happens to that "waste bowl"
besides the fact that it wastes perfectly good clay?
More energy used to haul it away in a truck, so it ends
up as an unnatural, never decomposing, bit of human
rubbish in a landfill.
For that matter, what happens if glaze materials are taken
to "the proper dump"? They are buried in landfills.
The beneficial minerals are still returned to the earth, but
concentrated in a landfill where they provide no benefit,
with lots of extra energy being consumed in the process.
I am not making excuses. I am being responsible when
recycle my leftover glaze ingredients on my own property.
I do it for the same reason as I fire my kiln with scrap
wood waste which would be incinerated in a pile if I didn't
gather it. For the same reason as I use local clay that is
fired less than 50 miles from where it was mined.
For the same reason as I take care of all my household
waste rather than set it on the driveway for someone
else to pick up and deal with.
These are the most responsible, most ecological choices.
David Hendley
Maydelle, Texas
david(at)farmpots(dot)com
http://www.farmpots.com
----- Original Message -----
>I don't get it, it seems like there is a lot of excuses for not taking care
> to dispose of materials in a responsible way. It's easy to blame others
> for
> doing worse damage and to rely on others to remove your waste. I do not
> believe just because our material comes from the ground that we can dump
> it
> where we simply want to. The plants, animals and people I live with (in my
> neighborhood) should not be exposed to anything that is not native to my
> area. That is not hard to understand.
>
> It's easy to take material to the proper dump. It's easy to fire it a
> little
> at a time in waste bowls in odd places in the kiln.
>
> Why are some of you still making excuses and having a such a difficult
> time
> being responsible?
>
> bill in sebastopol
The Fuzzy Chef on wed 8 oct 08
Folks,
Do people *really* dump glaze ingredients in their yards?!?
Gods ... when I think of all of the toxic metals in my glazes ... why
would something you need to wear rubber gloves for be ok to dump into
the water table?
I dry my glaze waste and bag it before throwing it away. I know I
should probably take it to hazardous waste.
--Fuzzy Potter
jonathan byler on wed 8 oct 08
What might have been confusing, is that
our friend Mel only uses relatively non-toxic materials.
As such, dumping some clay and iron oxide on the ground
is not going to hurt much of anything, rather the extra fertilizer
does his flowers good.
His point about not using materials
that you don't understand is something
I wish more people would consider...
jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849
On Oct 7, 2008, at 10:37 PM, bill geisinger wrote:
> I don't get it, it seems like there is a lot of excuses for not
> taking care
> to dispose of materials in a responsible way. It's easy to blame
> others for
> doing worse damage and to rely on others to remove your waste. I do
> not
> believe just because our material comes from the ground that we can
> dump it
> where we simply want to. The plants, animals and people I live with
> (in my
> neighborhood) should not be exposed to anything that is not native
> to my
> area. That is not hard to understand.
>
> It's easy to take material to the proper dump. It's easy to fire it
> a little
> at a time in waste bowls in odd places in the kiln.
>
> Why are some of you still making excuses and having a such a
> difficult time
> being responsible?
>
> bill in sebastopol
bill geisinger on wed 8 oct 08
Jon,
Thanks for the reply. I'm not confused about Mel's statement and I agree
with yours about using materials that you understand. It's not OK to dump
glaze on your flowers. Just because the fertilizer you can use has similar
compounds. I have never seen a fertilizer with 10% iron oxide as an
ingredient. Yes Iron is harmless It's everywhere but rarely do you find it
in concentrations at 10%. Iron is also water soluble It will end up in the
water table. Then it wlll certainly travel to other areas. No it's not OK to
dump glaze. Dispose of your waste carefully and do not dump it in the garden
or yard please.
bill in sebastopol
On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 12:22 PM, jonathan byler wrote:
> What might have been confusing, is that
> our friend Mel only uses relatively non-toxic materials.
>
> As such, dumping some clay and iron oxide on the ground
> is not going to hurt much of anything, rather the extra fertilizer
> does his flowers good.
>
> His point about not using materials
> that you don't understand is something
> I wish more people would consider...
>
> jon byler
> 3-D Building Coordinator
> Art Department
> Auburn University, AL 36849
>
>
> On Oct 7, 2008, at 10:37 PM, bill geisinger wrote:
>
> I don't get it, it seems like there is a lot of excuses for not
>> taking care
>> to dispose of materials in a responsible way. It's easy to blame
>> others for
>> doing worse damage and to rely on others to remove your waste. I do
>> not
>> believe just because our material comes from the ground that we can
>> dump it
>> where we simply want to. The plants, animals and people I live with
>> (in my
>> neighborhood) should not be exposed to anything that is not native
>> to my
>> area. That is not hard to understand.
>>
>> It's easy to take material to the proper dump. It's easy to fire it
>> a little
>> at a time in waste bowls in odd places in the kiln.
>>
>> Why are some of you still making excuses and having a such a
>> difficult time
>> being responsible?
>>
>> bill in sebastopol
>>
>
jonathan byler on wed 8 oct 08
I guess you better tell that to the dirt in my yard. I don't know
how much iron is in our red clay soil, but it is no small amount.
lizella clay is supposed to be ~ 3.6% iron oxide.
Just to give credit where credit is due, mel was the one who
mentioned that you should know the hazards of what you are using. I
was merely beating that drum some more, since I don't really think
one can beat the safety drum too much, nor too loudly.
jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849
On Oct 8, 2008, at 5:11 PM, bill geisinger wrote:
> Jon,
>
> Thanks for the reply. I'm not confused about Mel's statement and I
> agree
> with yours about using materials that you understand. It's not OK
> to dump
> glaze on your flowers. Just because the fertilizer you can use has
> similar
> compounds. I have never seen a fertilizer with 10% iron oxide as an
> ingredient. Yes Iron is harmless It's everywhere but rarely do you
> find it
> in concentrations at 10%. Iron is also water soluble It will end up
> in the
> water table. Then it wlll certainly travel to other areas. No it's
> not OK to
> dump glaze. Dispose of your waste carefully and do not dump it in
> the garden
> or yard please.
>
> bill in sebastopol
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 12:22 PM, jonathan byler
> wrote:
>
>> What might have been confusing, is that
>> our friend Mel only uses relatively non-toxic materials.
>>
>> As such, dumping some clay and iron oxide on the ground
>> is not going to hurt much of anything, rather the extra fertilizer
>> does his flowers good.
>>
>> His point about not using materials
>> that you don't understand is something
>> I wish more people would consider...
>>
>> jon byler
>> 3-D Building Coordinator
>> Art Department
>> Auburn University, AL 36849
>>
>>
>> On Oct 7, 2008, at 10:37 PM, bill geisinger wrote:
>>
>> I don't get it, it seems like there is a lot of excuses for not
>>> taking care
>>> to dispose of materials in a responsible way. It's easy to blame
>>> others for
>>> doing worse damage and to rely on others to remove your waste. I do
>>> not
>>> believe just because our material comes from the ground that we can
>>> dump it
>>> where we simply want to. The plants, animals and people I live with
>>> (in my
>>> neighborhood) should not be exposed to anything that is not native
>>> to my
>>> area. That is not hard to understand.
>>>
>>> It's easy to take material to the proper dump. It's easy to fire it
>>> a little
>>> at a time in waste bowls in odd places in the kiln.
>>>
>>> Why are some of you still making excuses and having a such a
>>> difficult time
>>> being responsible?
>>>
>>> bill in sebastopol
>>>
>>
Martin Rice on thu 9 oct 08
This discussion is very timely for me. I'm about to buy a wheel and
begin throwing. I'll set it up in my garage. Currently there's no
water in the garage, but I can put in a sink easily with hot and cold
water. We live in a subdivision and have a septic tank. I think that I
can control any glaze waste by taking it all to our recycle center,
which has hazardous waste disposal facilities available.
What I'm getting confused about it the disposal of clay slops. Of
course I'll reclaim a lot of it, but in cleaning up, a lot of it goes
down the drain, or if I wash my things out with a hose outside, it'll
go into the ground.
There have been lots of viewpoints expressed thus far in this ongoing
discussion of ceramic materials disposal, but I still don't have a
clear idea of how I should handle washing up of tools and utensils
with clay waste.
Thanks,
Martin
On Oct 8, 2008, at Oct 8, 20086:11 PM, bill geisinger wrote:
> Jon,
>
> Thanks for the reply. I'm not confused about Mel's statement and I
> agree
> with yours about using materials that you understand. It's not OK to
> dump
> glaze on your flowers. Just because the fertilizer you can use has
> similar
> compounds. I have never seen a fertilizer with 10% iron oxide as an
> ingredient. Yes Iron is harmless It's everywhere but rarely do you
> find it
> in concentrations at 10%. Iron is also water soluble It will end up
> in the
> water table. Then it wlll certainly travel to other areas. No it's
> not OK to
> dump glaze. Dispose of your waste carefully and do not dump it in
> the garden
> or yard please.
>
> bill in sebastopol
>
Elizabeth Priddy on thu 9 oct 08
My suggestion for the waste bowl of fired glaze is to smash it=20
up into pretty rocks.
=A0
What I did not say is that one would then put those pretty rocks in or
around plants or n planter bottoms.
=A0
it would never even occur to me to send it to a landfill.
Elizabeth Priddy
Beaufort, NC - USA
Workshops and pottery online at:
http://www.elizabethpriddy.com
Natural Instincts Conference Information:
http://downtothepottershouse.com/NaturalInstincts.html
Kiln pictures and such:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7973282@N03/
--- On Wed, 10/8/08, David Hendley wrote:
From: David Hendley
Subject: Re: ceramic materials hazardous waste/spray/garden dumping
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Date: Wednesday, October 8, 2008, 10:40 PM
I don't get this.
The plants I live with like, no love, extra minerals.
Before planting, the first step for all gardeners in my
area is to "lime" the soil because it is rather acid.
Lime is whiting.
Check out any organic gardening book and it will offer
the same advice.
Ranchers buy calcium carbonate and dolomite by the
ton, to spread on their pastures. They buy bentonite
to stop leaks in their ponds.
Far from being "waste", benign glaze ingredients are
a beneficial addition to most soils.
Why do you think wood ashes can be used as glazes?
Because the trees ingested all those minerals from soil
and water, and that's what's left over after the wood is
burned. Minerals need to be returned to the soil as
plants extract it.
The notion that people and plants should not be exposed
to anything "not native to the area" is more than hard
to understand - it is absurd.
Just today I have been "exposed" to a organic banana
from Costa Rica, strawberries from Watsonville,
California, and a corduroy shirt from China. And my
garden plants were subjected to compost, made from
vegetable waste from who-knows-where.
Living by this criteria would result in a lifestyle of,
let's see, approximately, the Stone Age. Ancient Egyptians
5000 years ago were already "exposing" themselves to
spices not native to the area.
It is a needless waste of energy to fire glaze materials in
"waste bowls". And what happens to that "waste bowl"
besides the fact that it wastes perfectly good clay?
More energy used to haul it away in a truck, so it ends
up as an unnatural, never decomposing, bit of human
rubbish in a landfill.
For that matter, what happens if glaze materials are taken
to "the proper dump"? They are buried in landfills.
The beneficial minerals are still returned to the earth, but
concentrated in a landfill where they provide no benefit,
with lots of extra energy being consumed in the process.
I am not making excuses. I am being responsible when
recycle my leftover glaze ingredients on my own property.
I do it for the same reason as I fire my kiln with scrap
wood waste which would be incinerated in a pile if I didn't
gather it. For the same reason as I use local clay that is
fired less than 50 miles from where it was mined.
For the same reason as I take care of all my household
waste rather than set it on the driveway for someone
else to pick up and deal with.
These are the most responsible, most ecological choices.
David Hendley
Maydelle, Texas
david(at)farmpots(dot)com
http://www.farmpots.com
----- Original Message -----
>I don't get it, it seems like there is a lot of excuses for not taking
care
> to dispose of materials in a responsible way. It's easy to blame
others
> for
> doing worse damage and to rely on others to remove your waste. I do not
> believe just because our material comes from the ground that we can dump
> it
> where we simply want to. The plants, animals and people I live with (in m=
y
> neighborhood) should not be exposed to anything that is not native to my
> area. That is not hard to understand.
>
> It's easy to take material to the proper dump. It's easy to fire
it a
> little
> at a time in waste bowls in odd places in the kiln.
>
> Why are some of you still making excuses and having a such a difficult
> time
> being responsible?
>
> bill in sebastopol
=0A=0A=0A
jonathan byler on thu 9 oct 08
if you know that, then do it.
jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849
On Oct 8, 2008, at 11:25 PM, The Fuzzy Chef wrote:
> Folks,
>
> Do people *really* dump glaze ingredients in their yards?!?
>
> Gods ... when I think of all of the toxic metals in my glazes ... why
> would something you need to wear rubber gloves for be ok to dump into
> the water table?
>
> I dry my glaze waste and bag it before throwing it away. I know I
> should probably take it to hazardous waste.
>
> --Fuzzy Potter
Taylor Hendrix on thu 9 oct 08
Hey Martin:
Welcome to the show.
Many of us here on clayart like to wash the majority of clay off our
tools in some kind of standing water like in a 5 gal bucket. Just keep
using the same water to wash off everything until you feel the need to
replace the water. The solids just settle to the bottom and leave
clear water available for the next clean up. That way if you do a
final rinse of your goodies you don't need to remove any large amounts
of clay.
I too have a septic system and I do not rinse clay tools in a sink
that discharges into my septic system. I don't want any kind of clay
load on my system at all. That being said, I do rinse tools in the
flower bed and have plans to run my garagio sink out to the ground and
into some form of catchment. A project for another day.
All my throwing water turned slop goes into my recycle slop where I
dump my crappy forms, trimmings and leftovers (not the lasagna). The
clean up water can be settled and then used to re wet your trimmings
etc. if you want. Be sure to know your materials and if solubles can
be a factor in your work.
Please check out the archives as vigorous conversations on these very
things have occurred on this list numerous times. You will obtain a
very broad and significantly deep understanding of the issues involved
if you do take the time to read what you find.
Glad you're here. Being a maker is important.
Taylor in Rockport, TX
On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 6:03 AM, Martin Rice wrote:
> This discussion is very timely for me. I'm about to buy a wheel and
> begin throwing. I'll set it up in my garage. Currently there's no
...
> What I'm getting confused about it the disposal of clay slops. Of
> course I'll reclaim a lot of it, but in cleaning up, a lot of it goes
> down the drain, or if I wash my things out with a hose outside, it'll
> go into the ground.
>
> There have been lots of viewpoints expressed thus far in this ongoing
> discussion of ceramic materials disposal, but I still don't have a
> clear idea of how I should handle washing up of tools and utensils
> with clay waste.
>
> Thanks,
> Martin
...
The Fuzzy Chef on thu 9 oct 08
Martin,
> What I'm getting confused about it the disposal of clay slops. Of
> course I'll reclaim a lot of it, but in cleaning up, a lot of it goes
> down the drain, or if I wash my things out with a hose outside, it'll
> go into the ground.
Well, most clays are chemically harmless. However, they are likely to
cake your grass and kill it, as well as leaving big white/red patches on
the yard, so hosing down isn't perfect.
Just washing stuff down the sewer line is also a bad idea because it
clogs. And clearing the main sewer line is $$$$$$.
You should make yourself a trap system; while you can, of course, fork
out $1300 for The Cink[1], I find it vastly more economical and just as
effective to create your own trap with 3 plastic buckets and some
drain pipes. I'll take a picture of my rig, which attaches to a garden
hose and cost me $100 total, sometime later.
--Fuzzy Potter
[1] http://www.axner.com/axner/equipment/creative-industries-cink.php
Sandy Henderson on fri 10 oct 08
I like the idea of just pouring out glaze materials, but I had an unfortunate experience doing that: the grass and weeds in that area died! My glazes don't have any "bad stuff" in them, so I wonder, could it have been copper? I do use copper in several glazes, not huge amounts. Any thoughts or advice out there?
Sandy Henderson
in Northwest Indiana
Original message:
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 21:40:19 -0500
From: David Hendley
Subject: Re: ceramic materials hazardous waste/spray/garden dumping
I don't get this.
The plants I live with like, no love, extra minerals.
Before planting, the first step for all gardeners in my
area is to "lime" the soil because it is rather acid.
Lime is whiting.
Check out any organic gardening book and it will offer
the same advice.
Ranchers buy calcium carbonate and dolomite by the
ton, to spread on their pastures. They buy bentonite
to stop leaks in their ponds.
Far from being "waste", benign glaze ingredients are
a beneficial addition to most soils.
Why do you think wood ashes can be used as glazes?
Because the trees ingested all those minerals from soil
and water, and that's what's left over after the wood is
burned. Minerals need to be returned to the soil as
plants extract it.
Paul Haigh on fri 10 oct 08
I'd like to give a big "plus one" on David Hendley's take on the matter. I single fire, and if I have a piece that has glaze on it that needs to go- I throw it as high in the air as I can and let it smash on the lawn. My soil is way too sandy anyway. I also spread my ash on the lawn- burned out coals included (look up "terra preta" for a great read on archaeology and gardening!).
If you avoid the toxic stuff- then what does it matter? I asked a month or 2 ago about whether I should bother adding spodumene to my glaze materials because I did not know about the possibility of lithium mobility, since I dump on the lawn (glaze that is). It's fine.
The simple clay and glaze materials (excluding heavy metals)are not a concern.
Snail Scott on fri 10 oct 08
On Oct 9, 2008, at 6:03 AM, Martin Rice wrote:
> ...I can put in a sink easily with hot and cold
> water. We live in a subdivision and have a septic tank. I think that I
> can control any glaze waste by taking it all to our recycle center,
> which has hazardous waste disposal facilities available.
>
> What I'm getting confused about it the disposal of clay slops. Of
> course I'll reclaim a lot of it, but in cleaning up, a lot of it goes
> down the drain, or if I wash my things out with a hose outside, it'll
> go into the ground.
Eek! Don't let it go down the drain to your septic system! All
those tiny particles will clog your leach field - and eventually
require that it be re-dug, assuming you have enough land
to put in a whole new leach field, and can do without a toilet
while the excavators work. Remember, fine clay is often
used to seal pond bottoms. Getting it on top of the ground, as
from dumping a rinse bucket, is by far the preferable option.
Or, if your yard can't sustain even that, keep your glaze rinse
and clay rinse in separate buckets, reprocess the clay slop
according to your preferred method, and do proper disposal
for the glaze rinse solids. (Dry it and fire it into an inert lump,
or use it as a scrap glaze.) You will have very little to get rid
of this way.
Since I have no running water anyway, rinsing things with
water that just goes away after one use, (whether down a
drain or on the ground) means carrying more fresh water
uphill to the studio, so I rinse everything in buckets. When one
fills up, I set it aside to settle, then pour off the top water into a
new bucket. The slop can then be reclaimed.
I may not live in the desert anymore, but I still like not wasting
water. Even when I did have running water, I disconnected the
drain and kept a bucket underneath the sink to catch the runoff,
and had a pre-rinse bucket to get 95% of the clay off first. At the
college where teach, I still keep pre-rinse buckets. We've got a
good trap, but why have to empty it more often? It teaches the
students better habits for the future, too, forcing them to think
about where things go after they go down the drain.
-Snail
John Britt on sat 11 oct 08
Sandy,
That is just the plants "liking, no loving" extra minerals and industrial
waste. It is no problem, you have just loved them to death. I suggest you
send your glazes scraps up to Mel or David so they can get the pleasure o=
f
dumping them in their back yard.
What Mel and David don't understand is the law unintended consequences an=
d
scale. If one person, who understands materials and has a large yard,
dumps waste in their backyard it is not the end of the world. (I am not
sure I would go so far as saying it is good for the plants and animals.)
But now if 100 people do it, or 10,000 people do it or 100,000 people do
it, what is the effect?
Societies have developed centralized dumps for a reason. It doesn=92t tak=
e a
genius to figure out the advantages of that system.
Now what if some =91expert=94 tells potters that not only is it ok, but i=
n
fact =93good=94, to dump your clay and glaze waste in the backyard? But o=
f the
3,000 people listening, 500 don=92t know what is =93good=94 to dump and =93=
bad=92 to
dump, they just dump. Now it is in the wells of the people who live there
and 25 years later some little kids get deformed and the person who dumpe=
d
says, =93I didn=92t know that barium and potassium dichromate were bad=94=
. Mel
and David, who are now dead, said it was a good idea. Is that any comfort
to the person who has a deformed baby?
The only difference between industrial companies which are regulated (lik=
e
DuPont) dumping their waste and potters - is scale and concentration. The
industrial producers will dump in one area and so it is obvious how bad i=
t
is after only a short time. Potters are small time operations spread over
a large area so the small dumps don=92t seem as bad, but they are the sam=
e.
Potters are small manufacturing companies. The waste they generate is
called industrial waste. As the people at large ceramic companies like
Homer Laughlin. Do they dump their waste in their back yard? Hell no!
Dumping industrial waste in the back yard is stupid. Don=92t do it!
John Britt
www.johnbrittpottery.com/wks.htm
Ivor and Olive Lewis on sun 12 oct 08
Dear Sandy Hendersonm,
Copper compounds are used in Horticulture and Agriculture to kill
Fungal and Algal organisms.
There are several districts in South Australia that became centres
where Copper minerals where Copper was mined and smelted. Prospectors
found ore bodies by seeking out areas which were barren, treeless and
even grassless wildernesses .
A Lime Copper wash is used on Vines to kill pests.
I supposed "Copper" should be regarded as bad stuff. Malachite,
Azurite, Bornite and Chalcopyrite are all natural earth minerals.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.
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