Rider,Francis - Art Studio Technician on tue 28 oct 08
I would like an opinion from clayarters on a problem that we are dealing wi=
th right now regarding the damage to a brand new 24 cf updraft gas kiln tha=
t was damaged during the shipment of the kiln. This company that I do not w=
ant to mention the name has a record of thirty years of business. When the =
kiln arrived the first red flag was that it was not crated, outside or no s=
upports inside. The gentleman that delivered the kiln was the owners son an=
d he said they deliver them all over the country just like that. We realize=
now that we probably should not have even unloaded the kiln but we had to =
make arrangements with the local lumber yard for the use of there forklift =
so time was an issue. It wasn't until we had it in our kiln area that with =
closer inspection that we found major damage, at that point the owners son =
said nothing a little mortar can't fix. We purchased a brand new kiln and f=
eel that a bandage is not the proper solution. There response is that we ca=
n pound the hard brick out to match the uneven door, stuff some kiln fiber =
in the gaps, slap some mortar on the uneven front sprung arch. Even the cas=
table refractory on the top has about a 1/2 inch gap between it and the top=
bricks which shows how much shifting occurred. Below is a list of some of =
the problems that we are dealing with. Also I would like to say that we hav=
e a 30 year old Olson kiln that is in better shape than this brand new kiln=
.
Sincerely
Francis Rider
Listed damage to the Kiln delivered on 08/26/2008:
1) The Door:
i. Unable to achieve proper seal of fire chamber due to:
1. Top insulation brick worn down to the metal frame during transport
2. Bottom insulation brick is even with the level of the metal frame.
3. Brick surface is concaved, uneven, and rounded at outer edges
4. Door latch is loose; unable to properly close the kiln door.
ii. Door steel frame is welded unevenly:
1. =BD inch difference in width from top to bottom.
iii. Bottom door frame welds have cracked and separated.
iv. Bottom "peep" casing is loose and does not line up with outer steel=
shell.
2) The Internal Chamber:
i. Uneven floor due to bent steel frame causing:
ii. Damage to entire back wall:
1. Individual bricks are loose within wall.
2. Entire wall flexes and has shifted upwards.
3. Gaps between bricks exceed =BC inch in places.
iii. Front Sprung Arch assembly:
1. Unsafe construction:
a. No apparent mortar used.
i. Arch brick has shifted down and forward in transit.
ii. Arch assembly flexes; held in place by weight alone.
b. Arch bricks not constructed on top of sidewalls (jams).
i. Rests inside each jam assembly.
iv. No fiber wall behind brick wall in left front and right back corner=
of chamber.
v. Gaps in front right and left corners of brick walls exceed - =BC in=
ch.
a. With a flash light I can see through the chamber to the thin outer =
steel shell of the kiln.
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Ron Roy
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 3:27 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: oxidation after recuction ???
Hi Gene,
It's supposed to make sure the clay surface gets reoxidized - it that does
not happen the clay stays grey - not brown for instance.
That said - I don't know of any kiln that is tight enough to keep oxygen
out during cooling.
When you break a reduced pot - made with clay with iron in it - the inside
should be grey to black (the same colour all the way through) - and a thin
skin of brown reoxidized clay on the surface where there is no glaze.
RR
>I down loaded the firing chart from the Axner web site to use as a guide
>with my oxi probe. All looks good in the firing schedule as a good
>reduction firing guide, but it calls for a 15 minute oxidation at cone 10
>then close the kiln up for cooling.
>
>What I'm trying to figure out is why would you need to do oxidation at the
>end after reducing from cone 012 to cone 10??
>
>Still trying to figure this gas kiln out, but getting closer every firing.
>
>Gene
>mudduck@mudduckpottery.net
>www.mudduckpottery.net
Ron Roy
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
Larry Kruzan on tue 28 oct 08
Get a lawyer now! Time is your worst enemy, this is pathetic and very =
poor
business.
From all the damage it sounds like he had a wreck with it - bent metal =
under
the floor, cracked welds etc. =20
Larry Kruzan
Lost Creek Pottery
www.lostcreekpottery.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of =
Rider,Francis -
Art Studio Technician
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 1:04 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: [CLAYART] Damaged Kiln
I would like an opinion from clayarters on a problem that we are dealing
with right now regarding the damage to a brand new 24 cf updraft gas =
kiln
that was damaged during the shipment of the kiln. This company that I do =
not
want to mention the name has a record of thirty years of business. When =
the
kiln arrived the first red flag was that it was not crated, outside or =
no
supports inside. The gentleman that delivered the kiln was the owners =
son
and he said they deliver them all over the country just like that. We
realize now that we probably should not have even unloaded the kiln but =
we
had to make arrangements with the local lumber yard for the use of there
forklift so time was an issue. It wasn't until we had it in our kiln =
area
that with closer inspection that we found major damage, at that point =
the
owners son said nothing a little mortar can't fix. We purchased a brand =
new
kiln and feel that a bandage is not the proper solution. There response =
is
that we can pound the hard brick out to match the uneven door, stuff =
some
kiln fiber in the gaps, slap some mortar on the uneven front sprung =
arch.
Even the castable refractory on the top has about a 1/2 inch gap between =
it
and the top bricks which shows how much shifting occurred. Below is a =
list
of some of the problems that we are dealing with. Also I would like to =
say
that we have a 30 year old Olson kiln that is in better shape than this
brand new kiln.
Sincerely
Francis Rider
Listed damage to the Kiln delivered on 08/26/2008:
1) The Door:
i. Unable to achieve proper seal of fire chamber due to:
1. Top insulation brick worn down to the metal frame during =
transport
2. Bottom insulation brick is even with the level of the metal =
frame.
3. Brick surface is concaved, uneven, and rounded at outer edges
4. Door latch is loose; unable to properly close the kiln door.
ii. Door steel frame is welded unevenly:
1. =BD inch difference in width from top to bottom.
iii. Bottom door frame welds have cracked and separated.
iv. Bottom "peep" casing is loose and does not line up with outer =
steel
shell.
2) The Internal Chamber:
i. Uneven floor due to bent steel frame causing:
ii. Damage to entire back wall:
1. Individual bricks are loose within wall.
2. Entire wall flexes and has shifted upwards.
3. Gaps between bricks exceed =BC inch in places.
iii. Front Sprung Arch assembly:
1. Unsafe construction:
a. No apparent mortar used.
i. Arch brick has shifted down and forward in transit.
ii. Arch assembly flexes; held in place by weight alone.
b. Arch bricks not constructed on top of sidewalls (jams).
i. Rests inside each jam assembly.
iv. No fiber wall behind brick wall in left front and right back =
corner
of chamber.
v. Gaps in front right and left corners of brick walls exceed - =BC =
inch.
a. With a flash light I can see through the chamber to the thin =
outer
steel shell of the kiln.
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Ron Roy
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 3:27 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: oxidation after recuction ???
Hi Gene,
It's supposed to make sure the clay surface gets reoxidized - it that =
does
not happen the clay stays grey - not brown for instance.
That said - I don't know of any kiln that is tight enough to keep oxygen
out during cooling.
When you break a reduced pot - made with clay with iron in it - the =
inside
should be grey to black (the same colour all the way through) - and a =
thin
skin of brown reoxidized clay on the surface where there is no glaze.
RR
>I down loaded the firing chart from the Axner web site to use as a =
guide
>with my oxi probe. All looks good in the firing schedule as a good
>reduction firing guide, but it calls for a 15 minute oxidation at cone =
10
>then close the kiln up for cooling.
>
>What I'm trying to figure out is why would you need to do oxidation at =
the
>end after reducing from cone 012 to cone 10??
>
>Still trying to figure this gas kiln out, but getting closer every =
firing.
>
>Gene
>mudduck@mudduckpottery.net
>www.mudduckpottery.net
Ron Roy
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
Vince Pitelka on tue 28 oct 08
Francis Rider wrote:
"I would like an opinion from clayarters on a problem that we are dealing
with right now regarding the damage to a brand new 24 cf updraft gas kiln
that was damaged during the shipment of the kiln. This company that I do not
want to mention the name has a record of thirty years of business. When the
kiln arrived the first red flag was that it was not crated, outside or no
supports inside. The gentleman that delivered the kiln was the owners son
and he said they deliver them all over the country just like that."
Francis -
Several years ago we bought a large frontloader electric. The company sent
it down via freight, and it must have gotten damaged in trans-shipping.
They had us ship the whole kiln back to them. They completely rebuilt it,
and shipped it back, and the second time the door was damaged. They had a
tech drive down with a brand new door and he did all repairs that were
needed. It doesn't sound like it had a fraction of the damage your kiln has
experienced. The owner of the company that made our kiln said that he is
never going to ship large kilns by standard shipping anymore, and instead
will ship them via door-to-door moving van, which gives a much smoother ride
with no trans-shipping. Every tiny jolt damages a kiln, and delivering a
kiln in the back of any standard truck without adequate cushioning is a bad
idea.
You need to contact this kiln maker (I have a pretty good idea who you are
talking about), and tell them that if they do not immediately come get the
kiln and replace it with an undamaged new one, you are going to contact your
lawyer and begin proceedings, and you are going to announce the name of the
company on Clayart. You would be fully justified in doing both of those
things. Give them a chance first, and if they do not treat you right, then
they leave you no other option.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
jonathan byler on tue 28 oct 08
I would get my money back. Hopefully you paid with a credit card. =20
If you work at a university or public institution, send the =20
purchasing dept. after them. the ladies that run our payment and =20
procurement dept. would make them think twice about dropping off a =20
damaged piece of $30,000 equipment and then saying, "oh, that's =20
nothing a little mortar and fiber can't fix." you bought a new kiln, =20=
you shouldn't start off with a partially broken and repaired kiln.
I don't know what you paid for it, but there is a lot to be said for =20
simply building your own. It takes a little time, but if you can get =20=
a crew together it can go much faster, and that money saved can be =20
put to good use buying other things that you can't make yourself.
jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849
On Oct 28, 2008, at 1:04 PM, Rider,Francis - Art Studio Technician =20
wrote:
> I would like an opinion from clayarters on a problem that we are =20
> dealing with right now regarding the damage to a brand new 24 cf =20
> updraft gas kiln that was damaged during the shipment of the kiln. =20
> This company that I do not want to mention the name has a record of =20=
> thirty years of business. When the kiln arrived the first red flag =20
> was that it was not crated, outside or no supports inside. The =20
> gentleman that delivered the kiln was the owners son and he said =20
> they deliver them all over the country just like that. We realize =20
> now that we probably should not have even unloaded the kiln but we =20
> had to make arrangements with the local lumber yard for the use of =20
> there forklift so time was an issue. It wasn't until we had it in =20
> our kiln area that with closer inspection that we found major =20
> damage, at that point the owners son said nothing a little mortar =20
> can't fix. We purchased a brand new kiln and feel that a bandage is =20=
> not the proper solution. There response is that we can pound the =20
> hard brick out to match the uneven door, stuff some kiln fiber in =20
> the gaps, slap some mortar on the uneven front sprung arch. Even =20
> the castable refractory on the top has about a 1/2 inch gap between =20=
> it and the top bricks which shows how much shifting occurred. Below =20=
> is a list of some of the problems that we are dealing with. Also I =20
> would like to say that we have a 30 year old Olson kiln that is in =20
> better shape than this brand new kiln.
>
> Sincerely
>
> Francis Rider
>
>
> Listed damage to the Kiln delivered on 08/26/2008:
> 1) The Door:
> i. Unable to achieve proper seal of fire chamber due to:
> 1. Top insulation brick worn down to the metal frame during =20
> transport
> 2. Bottom insulation brick is even with the level of the metal =20=
> frame.
> 3. Brick surface is concaved, uneven, and rounded at outer edges
> 4. Door latch is loose; unable to properly close the kiln door.
> ii. Door steel frame is welded unevenly:
> 1. =BD inch difference in width from top to bottom.
> iii. Bottom door frame welds have cracked and separated.
> iv. Bottom "peep" casing is loose and does not line up with =20
> outer steel shell.
>
> 2) The Internal Chamber:
> i. Uneven floor due to bent steel frame causing:
> ii. Damage to entire back wall:
> 1. Individual bricks are loose within wall.
> 2. Entire wall flexes and has shifted upwards.
> 3. Gaps between bricks exceed =BC inch in places.
> iii. Front Sprung Arch assembly:
> 1. Unsafe construction:
> a. No apparent mortar used.
> i. Arch brick has shifted down and forward in transit.
> ii. Arch assembly flexes; held in place by weight alone.
> b. Arch bricks not constructed on top of sidewalls (jams).
> i. Rests inside each jam assembly.
> iv. No fiber wall behind brick wall in left front and right =20
> back corner of chamber.
> v. Gaps in front right and left corners of brick walls exceed =20
> - =BC inch.
> a. With a flash light I can see through the chamber to the =20
> thin outer steel shell of the kiln.
>
>
>
>
Sherron & Jim Bowen on tue 28 oct 08
I do not want to mention the name
Why not?
JB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rider,Francis - Art Studio Technician"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 12:04 PM
Subject: Damaged Kiln
William & Susan Schran User on tue 28 oct 08
On 10/28/08 2:04 PM, "Rider,Francis - Art Studio Technician"
wrote:
> I would like an opinion from clayarters on a problem that we are dealing with
> right now regarding the damage to a brand new 24 cf updraft gas kiln that was
> damaged during the shipment of the kiln. This company that I do not want to
> mention the name has a record of thirty years of business. When the kiln
> arrived the first red flag was that it was not crated, outside or no supports
> inside. The gentleman that delivered the kiln was the owners son and he said
> they deliver them all over the country just like that. We realize now that we
> probably should not have even unloaded the kiln but we had to make
> arrangements with the local lumber yard for the use of there forklift so time
> was an issue.
Were the damages listed on the delivery receipt?
If you signed for it, without notation of damage, then you accepted it as
being in good condition.
Having said that, I would suggest the director of your studio/department
chair send a written letter requesting the owner of the kiln company come to
the kiln and everybody inspect the damage. It certainly would not be out of
line to ask that the kiln be replaced or be completely rebuilt onsite.
Bill
--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
Bill Merrill on tue 28 oct 08
Francis,
A reputable kiln company would send a technician to fix the kiln so it =
is in a "New" condition or the freight company would fix the problem. If =
the kiln was damaged in transit from where you picked it up and =
transported it to your studio, unfortunately the burden of fixing it may =
be a burden you will have to accept if it. Don't accept the kiln until =
it is fixed.
Bill=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of =
Rider,Francis - Art Studio Technician
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 11:04 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Damaged Kiln
I would like an opinion from clayarters on a problem that we are dealing =
with right now regarding the damage to a brand new 24 cf updraft gas =
kiln that was damaged during the shipment of the kiln. This company that =
I do not want to mention the name has a record of thirty years of =
business. When the kiln arrived the first red flag was that it was not =
crated, outside or no supports inside. The gentleman that delivered the =
kiln was the owners son and he said they deliver them all over the =
country just like that. We realize now that we probably should not have =
even unloaded the kiln but we had to make arrangements with the local =
lumber yard for the use of there forklift so time was an issue. It =
wasn't until we had it in our kiln area that with closer inspection that =
we found major damage, at that point the owners son said nothing a =
little mortar can't fix. We purchased a brand new kiln and feel that a =
bandage is not the proper solution. There response is that we can pound =
the hard brick out to match the uneven door, stuff some kiln fiber in =
the gaps, slap some mortar on the uneven front sprung arch. Even the =
castable refractory on the top has about a 1/2 inch gap between it and =
the top bricks which shows how much shifting occurred. Below is a list =
of some of the problems that we are dealing with. Also I would like to =
say that we have a 30 year old Olson kiln that is in better shape than =
this brand new kiln.
Sincerely
Francis Rider
Listed damage to the Kiln delivered on 08/26/2008:
1) The Door:
i. Unable to achieve proper seal of fire chamber due to:
1. Top insulation brick worn down to the metal frame during =
transport
2. Bottom insulation brick is even with the level of the metal =
frame.
3. Brick surface is concaved, uneven, and rounded at outer edges
4. Door latch is loose; unable to properly close the kiln door.
ii. Door steel frame is welded unevenly:
1. =BD inch difference in width from top to bottom.
iii. Bottom door frame welds have cracked and separated.
iv. Bottom "peep" casing is loose and does not line up with outer =
steel shell.
2) The Internal Chamber:
i. Uneven floor due to bent steel frame causing:
ii. Damage to entire back wall:
1. Individual bricks are loose within wall.
2. Entire wall flexes and has shifted upwards.
3. Gaps between bricks exceed =BC inch in places.
iii. Front Sprung Arch assembly:
1. Unsafe construction:
a. No apparent mortar used.
i. Arch brick has shifted down and forward in transit.
ii. Arch assembly flexes; held in place by weight alone.
b. Arch bricks not constructed on top of sidewalls (jams).
i. Rests inside each jam assembly.
iv. No fiber wall behind brick wall in left front and right back =
corner of chamber.
v. Gaps in front right and left corners of brick walls exceed - =BC =
inch.
a. With a flash light I can see through the chamber to the thin =
outer steel shell of the kiln.
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Ron Roy
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 3:27 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: oxidation after recuction ???
Hi Gene,
It's supposed to make sure the clay surface gets reoxidized - it that =
does
not happen the clay stays grey - not brown for instance.
That said - I don't know of any kiln that is tight enough to keep oxygen
out during cooling.
When you break a reduced pot - made with clay with iron in it - the =
inside
should be grey to black (the same colour all the way through) - and a =
thin
skin of brown reoxidized clay on the surface where there is no glaze.
RR
>I down loaded the firing chart from the Axner web site to use as a =
guide
>with my oxi probe. All looks good in the firing schedule as a good
>reduction firing guide, but it calls for a 15 minute oxidation at cone =
10
>then close the kiln up for cooling.
>
>What I'm trying to figure out is why would you need to do oxidation at =
the
>end after reducing from cone 012 to cone 10??
>
>Still trying to figure this gas kiln out, but getting closer every =
firing.
>
>Gene
>mudduck@mudduckpottery.net
>www.mudduckpottery.net
Ron Roy
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
Arnold Howard on tue 28 oct 08
From: "Rider,Francis - Art Studio Technician"
I would like an opinion from clayarters on a problem that we
are dealing with right now regarding the damage to a brand
new 24 cf updraft gas kiln that was damaged during the
shipment of the kiln.
------------
Francis, I assume from your post that the manufacturer
delivered the kiln rather than a trucking company. If at the
time of delivery the kiln looks damaged, you can refuse the
shipment.
When accepting a kiln from a trucking line, uncrate and
inspect the kiln before signing the bill of lading clear. If
the driver does not have time to wait for you to uncrate the
kiln, then sign with the notation "Subject to inspection.
Driver refuses to wait."
Sincerely,
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA
ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com
Rider,Francis - Art Studio Technician on wed 29 oct 08
I would just like to thank all of you that replied to my questions on how t=
o handle the damaged kiln issue that our department is dealing with, all of=
the comments have been helpful and I did not post the kiln builder as I wa=
s trying to be civil. If he does not handle this situation in a timely mann=
er than you can count on another post from me with there name in big LETTER=
S. If you really need to know the name of the company you can contact me di=
rectly at rider@ltcc.edu
Thanks again
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Arnold Howard
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 1:01 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Damaged Kiln
From: "Rider,Francis - Art Studio Technician"
I would like an opinion from clayarters on a problem that we
are dealing with right now regarding the damage to a brand
new 24 cf updraft gas kiln that was damaged during the
shipment of the kiln.
------------
Francis, I assume from your post that the manufacturer
delivered the kiln rather than a trucking company. If at the
time of delivery the kiln looks damaged, you can refuse the
shipment.
When accepting a kiln from a trucking line, uncrate and
inspect the kiln before signing the bill of lading clear. If
the driver does not have time to wait for you to uncrate the
kiln, then sign with the notation "Subject to inspection.
Driver refuses to wait."
Sincerely,
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA
ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com
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