mel jacobson on wed 15 oct 08
one of the biggest challenges is getting in...anyplace.
i know we all think...`man, they cannot wait to
have me...`.
well, i have had experiences with some great potters
here on clayart and also good friends with backgrounds
in clay.
total rejection.
so.
i am not discouraging anyone from starting an
academic search...but, i like to tell folks....
`test the water, see if some local schools are
taking students...and, can you get in.`
ask around with some profs...ask the big
question:
`are you interested in a 40 plus guy with four kids?`
if they say no...hell, sue em.
mel
from minnetonka:
website http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
clayart site:
http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
Lee Love on wed 15 oct 08
Mel,
I have thought of going back to school. But only for the pure
joy of learning.
--
Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://heartclay.blogspot.com/
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
http://claycraft.blogspot.com/
"Let the beauty we love be what we do.
There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground." --Rumi
Tony Ferguson on wed 15 oct 08
Mel,
I here you and I am used to rejection (Alfred twice, U o M, Madison, SIUE, Iowa, etc and I know how to fail and make mistakes and recover from them--most of the time. But stubborn I am I am and I do bring a dynamic and something "out of the ordinary" to the table. The question is does anyone care and will they value it, see it as an addition to their program. And yes, Mel, ageism is alive everywhere--even in the MFA programs--and because of PC and liability, a person won't get the truth--but I won't let it discourage me. And I am 38. 8-).
Tony Ferguson
mel jacobson wrote: one of the biggest challenges is getting in...anyplace.
i know we all think...`man, they cannot wait to
have me...`.
well, i have had experiences with some great potters
here on clayart and also good friends with backgrounds
in clay.
total rejection.
so.
i am not discouraging anyone from starting an
academic search...but, i like to tell folks....
`test the water, see if some local schools are
taking students...and, can you get in.`
ask around with some profs...ask the big
question:
`are you interested in a 40 plus guy with four kids?`
if they say no...hell, sue em.
mel
from minnetonka:
website http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
clayart site:
http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
Take Care,
Tony Ferguson
Artist...Clay, Web, Photo, Video
...where the sky meets the lake...
http://www.tonyferguson.net
jonathan byler on wed 15 oct 08
there were quite a few older than 38 when i was at madison. they
don't care about that. they want to see that you are going to be a
good worker, that you will get along/be able to work constructively
with your profs and fellow students, and that more than anything, you
have a good portfolio when you are applying. that part about good
can be very subjective, however. So far as I can tell, at madison,
they are wanting people who's work is looking forward and going
somewhere new. even in the craft areas, they don't seem to go much
for things that look like the past and everything that has come
before. Going and talking to professors and students at the schools
you want to get into is a good thing to do. see if you have some
kind of rapport with one of the profs and get advice on what you can
do to present your best side to the rest of the faculty on the
admissions committee. Bring bunches of slides and see what they
react to. Making friends is almost more important than making good
work in terms of getting your foot in the door.
you can also usually figure out by the university web sites what
various faculty are interested in. try to visit during times when
the grad students are having shows (should be always at a good
school). try and get in somewhere where the professors and other
students will be helpful in getting you where you want to be. in
addition to making lots of work, your job in an MFA program is to
make friends and network. get people interested in the idea of
promoting your stuff with their people and vice versa. Despite some
people's efforts to the contrary, friendly cronyism makes the world
go 'round.
-jon
jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849
On Oct 15, 2008, at 5:17 PM, Tony Ferguson wrote:
> Mel,
>
> I here you and I am used to rejection (Alfred twice, U o M,
> Madison, SIUE, Iowa, etc and I know how to fail and make mistakes
> and recover from them--most of the time. But stubborn I am I am
> and I do bring a dynamic and something "out of the ordinary" to the
> table. The question is does anyone care and will they value it,
> see it as an addition to their program. And yes, Mel, ageism is
> alive everywhere--even in the MFA programs--and because of PC and
> liability, a person won't get the truth--but I won't let it
> discourage me. And I am 38. 8-).
>
> Tony Ferguson
>
>
> mel jacobson wrote: one of the biggest
> challenges is getting in...anyplace.
>
> i know we all think...`man, they cannot wait to
> have me...`.
> well, i have had experiences with some great potters
> here on clayart and also good friends with backgrounds
> in clay.
>
> total rejection.
> so.
> i am not discouraging anyone from starting an
> academic search...but, i like to tell folks....
> `test the water, see if some local schools are
> taking students...and, can you get in.`
> ask around with some profs...ask the big
> question:
>
> `are you interested in a 40 plus guy with four kids?`
>
> if they say no...hell, sue em.
> mel
> from minnetonka:
> website http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
> clayart site:
> http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
>
>
>
> Take Care,
>
>
>
> Tony Ferguson
> Artist...Clay, Web, Photo, Video
>
> ...where the sky meets the lake...
>
> http://www.tonyferguson.net
Snail Scott on thu 16 oct 08
On Oct 15, 2008, at 5:17 PM, Tony Ferguson wrote:
> ...ageism is alive everywhere--even in the MFA programs--and because
> of PC and liability, a person won't get the truth--but I won't let it
> discourage me. And I am 38.
I started my MFA at 38, and the ages in my program
ranged from 25 to 57. I don't think most schools
refuse a student based on age; but they know that
that many older students have already settled into
a working method and aren't inclined to change, and
in some cases their willingness to learn new things
has completely ossified. They will be looking for
changes within the work you have been doing, and
signs that you are really wanting to learn new things,
not just going to school for a credential. That said,
most programs are looking for students that will
reflect well on them: those that are already doing
good work, and that have the potential to do even
better work.
They also want students who are a good 'fit' for the
flavor/style/approach of the program. A school generally
wants diversity among their incoming class (not just the
superficial diversity represented by ethnicity, though
that can be a factor), but real diversity of culture, training
experience, skill set, working methods, and thought
process. But, they want students whose goals are still
congruent with the emphases of the program. I am
constantly bewildered by students who apply to a grad
program 'because it's supposed to be a good one', but
which doesn't support the kind of direction they want. It
may truly be a great program - for someone else.
Some people say to seek out a professor whose work you
admire, and apply to their program. I'm not a fan of that
approach. For one thing, people retire, move, go on
sabbatical, etc. They may also be crabby, inattentive,
poor teachers, biased against something you want to do,
or just an incompatible personality. A friend of mine got
into the grad program of her dreams - well reputed, and
run by the Famous Person whose work she most admired.
It turned out that the Famous Person was much too busy
to give much time even to grad students, and only seemed
to like work that showed a direct inspiration from his own.
(After a full semester of frustration, she reglazed everything
to match his current work: he loved it, and commented on
the improvement.)
My point is: don't pick a place for one reason. Reputations
can be based on things that don't matter to you. People
may not be who you hope they'll be. Equipment may be
unavailable. The location may have unperceived problems,
and cheaper costs may not be enough to make up for not
getting the education you wanted. Pick a place with at least
a couple of good points which are specifically desirable to
you, not just to the US News OR the CM rankings. Can you
do your preferred processes there? Can you learn new ones
that will be useful? (The latter may be an even bigger plus.)
Is there more than one professor with interesting work?
Look at the student work from the program: was it made by
clones, or is it diverse and personal? Does it look GOOD?
How much access will you have to other amenities in the
college, if those are important to you? Can you afford an
apartment close to the studios? Will you have 24/7 access?
(Some won't.)
Forget the listed tuition costs, and forget the big aid packages
they tout. A good aid package is only good if they give it to
YOU: how many of their students actually get lots of aid?
Does it all go to a chosen few? Hold out for that financial aid,
and don't accept if it isn't forthcoming. Find a place that will
give it to you, or reapply until you get it. There are lots of good
programs, so don't mortgage your future toward a financially
marginal career. Pick one that will let you leave school free
and clear (or close to it). Pick the places you want to go, get
accepted, then lean on them for aid. If they want you, they
may find the cash. If they can't, decline and go elsewhere, or
wait. The schools that look most expensive may give you
enough aid to make them the cheapest in the end, and the
low-tuition places may have so little aid to offer that it comes
out higher in the end. And ask about extra fees - mandatory
extras that may not be listed up front. They can be significant.
And ask at the financial office, not the department: they may
not know.
With my MFA, I presently earn about the same as I did 20
years ago, delivering pizza. Was it worth it? For me, yes. I
learned how to improve my work, not with technical tricks,
but by expanding and refining my understanding of what
my work needed to become. I hope to find a full-time teaching
post soon, but statistically, it's not likely. Still, without the
MFA, it would be totally impossible. (Many places, even the
community colleges require the terminal degree.) So, I teach
at three colleges (sometimes on the same day), commute
between 70 and 120 miles a day, and earn about $18,000
a year before taxes. (No guarantee to that, either. Since I
work on one-semester contracts, I can't plan on what next
term will bring. Can you handle that possibility? If you can't,
don't plan on an MFA as a meal ticket. Some folks land that
tenure-track job right off the bat, but most will not. Get an
MFA if you are sure of your intentions, but one of those
intentions had better not be a steady paycheck.
-Snail
Tony Ferguson on thu 16 oct 08
John and others,
Thank you for your advice and sharing of experience. Feel free to keep it coming. Just wanted to thank everyone for taking the time to write about this, on and off list.
Tony Ferguson
jonathan byler wrote: there were quite a few older than 38 when i was at madison. they
don't care about that. they want to see that you are going to be a
good worker, that you will get along/be able to work constructively
with your profs and fellow students, and that more than anything, you
have a good portfolio when you are applying. that part about good
can be very subjective, however. So far as I can tell, at madison,
they are wanting people who's work is looking forward and going
somewhere new. even in the craft areas, they don't seem to go much
for things that look like the past and everything that has come
before. Going and talking to professors and students at the schools
you want to get into is a good thing to do. see if you have some
kind of rapport with one of the profs and get advice on what you can
do to present your best side to the rest of the faculty on the
admissions committee. Bring bunches of slides and see what they
react to. Making friends is almost more important than making good
work in terms of getting your foot in the door.
you can also usually figure out by the university web sites what
various faculty are interested in. try to visit during times when
the grad students are having shows (should be always at a good
school). try and get in somewhere where the professors and other
students will be helpful in getting you where you want to be. in
addition to making lots of work, your job in an MFA program is to
make friends and network. get people interested in the idea of
promoting your stuff with their people and vice versa. Despite some
people's efforts to the contrary, friendly cronyism makes the world
go 'round.
-jon
jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849
On Oct 15, 2008, at 5:17 PM, Tony Ferguson wrote:
> Mel,
>
> I here you and I am used to rejection (Alfred twice, U o M,
> Madison, SIUE, Iowa, etc and I know how to fail and make mistakes
> and recover from them--most of the time. But stubborn I am I am
> and I do bring a dynamic and something "out of the ordinary" to the
> table. The question is does anyone care and will they value it,
> see it as an addition to their program. And yes, Mel, ageism is
> alive everywhere--even in the MFA programs--and because of PC and
> liability, a person won't get the truth--but I won't let it
> discourage me. And I am 38. 8-).
>
> Tony Ferguson
>
>
> mel jacobson wrote: one of the biggest
> challenges is getting in...anyplace.
>
> i know we all think...`man, they cannot wait to
> have me...`.
> well, i have had experiences with some great potters
> here on clayart and also good friends with backgrounds
> in clay.
>
> total rejection.
> so.
> i am not discouraging anyone from starting an
> academic search...but, i like to tell folks....
> `test the water, see if some local schools are
> taking students...and, can you get in.`
> ask around with some profs...ask the big
> question:
>
> `are you interested in a 40 plus guy with four kids?`
>
> if they say no...hell, sue em.
> mel
> from minnetonka:
> website http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
> clayart site:
> http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
>
>
>
> Take Care,
>
>
>
> Tony Ferguson
> Artist...Clay, Web, Photo, Video
>
> ...where the sky meets the lake...
>
> http://www.tonyferguson.net
Take Care,
Tony Ferguson
Artist...Clay, Web, Photo, Video
...where the sky meets the lake...
http://www.tonyferguson.net
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