jonathan byler on fri 14 nov 08
Hi Vince, (and anyone else with info)
I am trying to get some shelves for our soda kiln and for our other
gas kilns, and I was wondering if you had any suggestions for
suppliers in the south east. ordering from axner's or bailey's seems
pretty pricey when you throw in their packing and shipping costs.
also, have you had any more experience with the nitride-bonded
silicon carbide shelves in your soda kiln yet? we are leaning
towards getting them, but wanted to be sure that they are a good
solution. I need shelves for regular reduction firings, too, and was
planning on getting the same type.
thanks,
jon
jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849
Vince Pitelka on sat 15 nov 08
Jon Byler wrote:
"I am trying to get some shelves for our soda kiln and for our other
gas kilns, and I was wondering if you had any suggestions for
suppliers in the south east. ordering from axner's or bailey's seems
pretty pricey when you throw in their packing and shipping costs.
also, have you had any more experience with the nitride-bonded
silicon carbide shelves in your soda kiln yet? we are leaning
towards getting them, but wanted to be sure that they are a good
solution. I need shelves for regular reduction firings, too, and was
planning on getting the same type.
Jon -
So far the 1/2" nitride-bonded shelves are holding up well in soda. We
bought them from Larkin Refractory Solutions - 678-336-7090, Fax:
678-336-7094, lrs@larkinrefractory.com, P.O. Box 716, 2331 Varkel Way,
Lithonia, GA, 30058. Talk to Pam. She says that they have sold them to
lots of soda-firers and they are doing fine.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
June on sat 15 nov 08
Jon, I have both advancers and the less expensive nitride bonded for my soda kiln; and the advancers have been great, but 3 of the nitride bonded broke in half - all in the same center, horizontal break.
Also, know that the nitride bonded shelves are not rated for as high a temperature as the advancers.
I know the reviews are mixed on the nitride bonded - some are happy with them and others have had my experience with them. My suggestion is to bite the bullet and get the advancers. It's a good long term investment if you take proper care of them.
Regards,
June
http://www.shambhalapottery.com
http://shambhalapottery.blogspot.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sodasaltfiring/
________________________________
From: jonathan byler
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 5:04:02 PM
Subject: kiln shelves for soda kiln (again)
Hi Vince, (and anyone else with info)
I am trying to get some shelves for our soda kiln and for our other
gas kilns, and I was wondering if you had any suggestions for
suppliers in the south east. ordering from axner's or bailey's seems
pretty pricey when you throw in their packing and shipping costs.
also, have you had any more experience with the nitride-bonded
silicon carbide shelves in your soda kiln yet? we are leaning
towards getting them, but wanted to be sure that they are a good
solution. I need shelves for regular reduction firings, too, and was
planning on getting the same type.
thanks,
jon
jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849
Peggy Thompson on sat 15 nov 08
again, post to ''wanted'' on local craigslist and kijiji ,try other free
lists from ceramic suppliers online[google them] and of course
potterbarter,a Yahoo group online.
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 5:04 PM, jonathan byler wrote:
> Hi Vince, (and anyone else with info)
>
> I am trying to get some shelves for our soda kiln and for our other
> gas kilns, and I was wondering if you had any suggestions for
> suppliers in the south east. ordering from axner's or bailey's seems
> pretty pricey when you throw in their packing and shipping costs.
> also, have you had any more experience with the nitride-bonded
> silicon carbide shelves in your soda kiln yet? we are leaning
> towards getting them, but wanted to be sure that they are a good
> solution. I need shelves for regular reduction firings, too, and was
> planning on getting the same type.
>
> thanks,
> jon
>
>
>
> jon byler
> 3-D Building Coordinator
> Art Department
> Auburn University, AL 36849
>
Ivor and Olive Lewis on sun 16 nov 08
Dear Jonathan Byler
Information to hand suggests that Silicon nitride bonded Silicon
carbide composites are stable up to 1750 deg C ( 3182 F) being
described as resistant to attack or corrosion from fused salts and
fluxes. In contrast, ceramic bonded SiC is serviceable up to only
about 1450 deg C ( 2642 F).
You make your choice, pay the money. Bear in mind you are using a
glazing process that introduces an aggressive Ceramic Flux into your
kiln. One prediction might be that Ceramic bonded materials would
suffer from progressive grain boundary corrosion and eventually fail
in service.
Ask your librarian to get a copy of :
L. A. Lay, "Corrosion resistance of Technical Ceramics". ISBN-11-
480051-0. National Physical Laboratory, 1983. (H.M.S.O.) Pounds
Sterling 12.50)
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.
Vince Pitelka on mon 17 nov 08
Jon Byler wrote:
"They (Larkin) recommended that we go with regular silicon carbide shelves
over
the nitride bonded shelves, given that they will be used in in an
educational setting. Does anyone know why they might say this? Are
the nitride bonded shelves inherently more prone to breakage? the
info they gave showed the regular silicon carbide shelves to have a
max temperature of 2370 deg F, and the nitride bonded as having a max
operating temp of 2480 deg F. I would think that the nitride bonded
shelves would stay flatter longer, since they won't be pushed to
their limit in normal firings."
Jon -
Hmmmm, now I am a little worried. When I talked to Pam at Larkin last
spring and ordered the nitride bonded shelves for use in our soda kiln, she
knew that they were for an educational setting and she recommended them, and
said that a lot of customers had been using them successfully in salt and
soda. I'd call her back and see if you can pin her down on what might the
problem with the nitride bonded shelves in an educational setting. I'd like
to know what she says.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
June on mon 17 nov 08
The Nitrite bonded shelves that cracked were the ones with the =
Jon,=0A=0AThe=A0Nitrite bonded shelves that cracked were the ones with the =
slits. I'm not sure where I got them. I had them shipped either from Axners=
or Bailey's or both.=A0At the time (a couple of years ago), I=A0did a lot =
of checking on pricing=A0and shipping costs. Around that time I was also bu=
ying advancers, so I'm not positive. If it's really important I can dig thr=
ough some files and see if I can dig up those receipts. =0A=0AI would doubl=
e check the temperature limits they gave=A0you for the nitrite bonded shelv=
es. It's to high for cone 11 which is the limit for those shelves unless th=
ey have a new formula.. And the silicon carbide temperature you posted look=
s low.=A0Maybe you reversed them or they did; but I would double check thos=
e temperature limits again.=0A=0AThey probably recommend the silicon carbid=
e because they are thicker and can take a=A0bit rougher handling than much =
thinner shelves like advancers and the nitrite bonded. =0A=A0Regards,=0AJun=
e=0Ahttp://www.shambhalapottery.com=0Ahttp://shambhalapottery.blogspot.com=
=0Ahttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/sodasaltfiring/ =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A___________=
_____________________=0AFrom: jonathan byler =0ATo: CLA=
YART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG=0ASent: Monday, November 17, 2008 6:43:48 PM=0ASubjec=
t: Re: kiln shelves for soda kiln (again)=0A=0AJune,=0A=0Awere the shelves =
that you had that cracked the ones that have the=0Acuts for stress relief i=
n the edges, or were they solid all the way=0Aacross?=A0 also, what sizes w=
ere you using, and from what supplier?=0A=0ATo any who are interested, Lark=
in has pretty good prices, and a=0Aquantity discount of 5 bucks per shelf f=
or orders over 20 shelves of=0Athe same size.=A0 they also don't have any s=
neaky 10-20% extra per=0Ashelf packing fees as do some of the ceramic suppl=
iers.=A0 They gave a=0Aquick quote over the phone, and I also got shipping =
quote at the same=0Atime.=0A=0AThey recommended that we go with regular sil=
icon carbide shelves over=0Athe nitride bonded shelves, given that they wil=
l be used in in an=0Aeducational setting.=A0 Does anyone know why they migh=
t say this?=A0 Are=0Athe nitride bonded shelves inherently more prone to br=
eakage?=A0 the=0Ainfo they gave showed the regular silicon carbide shelves =
to have a=0Amax temperature of 2370 deg F, and the nitride bonded as having=
a max=0Aoperating temp of 2480 deg F.=A0 I would think that the nitride bo=
nded=0Ashelves would stay flatter longer, since they won't be pushed to=0At=
heir limit in normal firings.=0A=0AI hate to has this to death, but we aren=
't going to get money to buy=0Ashelves again for 7 or 8 years at least, so =
I have to get the most=0Abang for our bucks=0A=0AAlso, has anyone dealt wit=
h alpha materials in minnesota?=A0 I see they=0Ahave positive testimonials =
from a number of potters on their=0Awebsite.=A0 I have yet to get prices fr=
om them, but should be getting=0Asomething soon.=0A=0Athanks,=0Ajon=0A=0A=
=0Ajon byler=0A3-D Building Coordinator=0AArt Department=0AAuburn Universit=
y, AL 36849=0A=0AOn Nov 15, 2008, at 6:15 PM, Vince Pitelka wrote:=0A=0A> J=
on Byler wrote:=0A> "I am trying to get some shelves for our soda kiln and =
for our other=0A> gas kilns, and I was wondering if you had any suggestions=
for=0A> suppliers in the south east.=A0 ordering from axner's or bailey's =
seems=0A> pretty pricey when you throw in their packing and shipping costs.=
=0A> also, have you had any more experience with the nitride-bonded=0A> sil=
icon carbide shelves in your soda kiln yet?=A0 we are leaning=0A> towards g=
etting them, but wanted to be sure that they are a good=0A> solution.=A0 I =
need shelves for regular reduction firings, too, and was=0A> planning on ge=
tting the same type.=0A>=0A> Jon -=0A> So far the 1/2" nitride-bonded shelv=
es are holding up well in=0A> soda.=A0 We=0A> bought them from Larkin Refra=
ctory Solutions - 678-336-7090, Fax:=0A> 678-336-7094, lrs@larkinrefractory=
.com, P.O. Box 716, 2331 Varkel Way,=0A> Lithonia, GA, 30058.=A0 Talk to Pa=
m.=A0 She says that they have sold=0A> them to=0A> lots of soda-firers and =
they are doing fine.=0A> - Vince=0A>=0A> Vince Pitelka=0A> Appalachian Cent=
er for Craft=0A> Tennessee Tech University=0A> vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelk=
a@tntech.edu=0A> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka=0A
jonathan byler on mon 17 nov 08
June,
were the shelves that you had that cracked the ones that have the
cuts for stress relief in the edges, or were they solid all the way
across? also, what sizes were you using, and from what supplier?
To any who are interested, Larkin has pretty good prices, and a
quantity discount of 5 bucks per shelf for orders over 20 shelves of
the same size. they also don't have any sneaky 10-20% extra per
shelf packing fees as do some of the ceramic suppliers. They gave a
quick quote over the phone, and I also got shipping quote at the same
time.
They recommended that we go with regular silicon carbide shelves over
the nitride bonded shelves, given that they will be used in in an
educational setting. Does anyone know why they might say this? Are
the nitride bonded shelves inherently more prone to breakage? the
info they gave showed the regular silicon carbide shelves to have a
max temperature of 2370 deg F, and the nitride bonded as having a max
operating temp of 2480 deg F. I would think that the nitride bonded
shelves would stay flatter longer, since they won't be pushed to
their limit in normal firings.
I hate to has this to death, but we aren't going to get money to buy
shelves again for 7 or 8 years at least, so I have to get the most
bang for our bucks
Also, has anyone dealt with alpha materials in minnesota? I see they
have positive testimonials from a number of potters on their
website. I have yet to get prices from them, but should be getting
something soon.
thanks,
jon
jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849
On Nov 15, 2008, at 6:15 PM, Vince Pitelka wrote:
> Jon Byler wrote:
> "I am trying to get some shelves for our soda kiln and for our other
> gas kilns, and I was wondering if you had any suggestions for
> suppliers in the south east. ordering from axner's or bailey's seems
> pretty pricey when you throw in their packing and shipping costs.
> also, have you had any more experience with the nitride-bonded
> silicon carbide shelves in your soda kiln yet? we are leaning
> towards getting them, but wanted to be sure that they are a good
> solution. I need shelves for regular reduction firings, too, and was
> planning on getting the same type.
>
> Jon -
> So far the 1/2" nitride-bonded shelves are holding up well in
> soda. We
> bought them from Larkin Refractory Solutions - 678-336-7090, Fax:
> 678-336-7094, lrs@larkinrefractory.com, P.O. Box 716, 2331 Varkel Way,
> Lithonia, GA, 30058. Talk to Pam. She says that they have sold
> them to
> lots of soda-firers and they are doing fine.
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Craft
> Tennessee Tech University
> vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Bill Merrill on tue 18 nov 08
Jon,
I have used 5/8" SC shelves and they seemed to work Ok, but heavy loads
warped them over a period of time. The thicker shelf seemed to last
longer and responded well to flipping them over each firing. I never
kiln washed them for the reason. I am just sold on the heavier shelf
and have had terrific results with the Advancer shelf. I know people
who found a Chinese import that was supposed to be like the Advancer,
inferior for the most part. I also have know the Chinese shelves to
work Ok, but failed in the long run. The heavy shelves are just harder
to load if you have to extend them to arms length.
My son uses the SC shelving for soda firings and they are still in good
shap after 7 years of firings,
Bill Merrill
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of jonathan
byler
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 9:38 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: kiln shelves for soda kiln (again)
Bill,
are the standard oxide bonded shelves then less desirable because of
the extra weight? also is 5/8" thickness adequate for a 12x24 oxide
bonded shelf at ^10? do the oxide bonded shelves also need regular
flipping to prevent warpage? would 3/4x18x24" be able to take the
heat without warping at ^10?
jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849
On Nov 18, 2008, at 10:08 AM, William & Susan Schran User wrote:
> On 11/17/08 9:23 PM, "Vince Pitelka" wrote:
>
>> Hmmmm, now I am a little worried. When I talked to Pam at Larkin
>> last
>> spring and ordered the nitride bonded shelves for use in our soda
>> kiln, she
>> knew that they were for an educational setting and she recommended
>> them, and
>> said that a lot of customers had been using them successfully in
>> salt and
>> soda. I'd call her back and see if you can pin her down on what
>> might the
>> problem with the nitride bonded shelves in an educational setting.
>> I'd like
>> to know what she says.
>
> Vince,
>
> After several conversations with a variety of manufacturers and
> suppliers, I
> believe the oxide bonded and nitride bonded shelves are fine for
> wood and
> salt firings.
>
> Based on my testing so far in a gas fired kiln to a hot ^10, all
> Chinese
> manufactured oxide and nitride bonded SiC shelves should have
> expansion
> slits in them and should be rotated (flipped) on a regular basis to
> prevent
> deflection (warping).
>
> One MUST avoid flame impingement (direct flame contact) with any
> nitride
> bonded shelf (Advancer or Chinese made) and rapid heating ramps
> that may
> create uneven temperature gradients across the shelf. Both can lead
> to shelf
> failure. Also avoid spraying a water/soda solution directly on the
> shelves.
>
> The oxide bonded shelves are less prone to failure from the above
> issues.
>
> I think the issue with nitride bonded shelves in an educational
> setting is
> how the shelves are handled. The nitride bonded shelves are more
> dense/hard
> and may be more easily broken if they are mishandled/banged around.
>
> Bill
>
> --
> William "Bill" Schran
> wschran@cox.net
> wschran@nvcc.edu
> http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
William & Susan Schran User on tue 18 nov 08
On 11/18/08 12:37 PM, "jonathan byler" wrote:
> are the standard oxide bonded shelves then less desirable because of
> the extra weight? also is 5/8" thickness adequate for a 12x24 oxide
> bonded shelf at ^10? do the oxide bonded shelves also need regular
> flipping to prevent warpage? would 3/4x18x24" be able to take the
> heat without warping at ^10?
Yes, weight is certainly an issue when we get up to 3/4" shelves.
Standard oxide bonded shelves are more prone to warping no matter the
thickness, though the thicker ones would be less prone to this. All shelves,
with the exception of Advancers, need to be flipped on a regular basis.
I have a bunch of older 3/4" SiC, I think by Norton, and they are all warped
after years of ^10 firings, before I understood the need to flip them.
Bill
--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
William & Susan Schran User on tue 18 nov 08
On 11/17/08 9:23 PM, "Vince Pitelka" wrote:
> Hmmmm, now I am a little worried. When I talked to Pam at Larkin last
> spring and ordered the nitride bonded shelves for use in our soda kiln, she
> knew that they were for an educational setting and she recommended them, and
> said that a lot of customers had been using them successfully in salt and
> soda. I'd call her back and see if you can pin her down on what might the
> problem with the nitride bonded shelves in an educational setting. I'd like
> to know what she says.
Vince,
After several conversations with a variety of manufacturers and suppliers, I
believe the oxide bonded and nitride bonded shelves are fine for wood and
salt firings.
Based on my testing so far in a gas fired kiln to a hot ^10, all Chinese
manufactured oxide and nitride bonded SiC shelves should have expansion
slits in them and should be rotated (flipped) on a regular basis to prevent
deflection (warping).
One MUST avoid flame impingement (direct flame contact) with any nitride
bonded shelf (Advancer or Chinese made) and rapid heating ramps that may
create uneven temperature gradients across the shelf. Both can lead to shelf
failure. Also avoid spraying a water/soda solution directly on the shelves.
The oxide bonded shelves are less prone to failure from the above issues.
I think the issue with nitride bonded shelves in an educational setting is
how the shelves are handled. The nitride bonded shelves are more dense/hard
and may be more easily broken if they are mishandled/banged around.
Bill
--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
jonathan byler on tue 18 nov 08
Bill,
are the standard oxide bonded shelves then less desirable because of
the extra weight? also is 5/8" thickness adequate for a 12x24 oxide
bonded shelf at ^10? do the oxide bonded shelves also need regular
flipping to prevent warpage? would 3/4x18x24" be able to take the
heat without warping at ^10?
jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849
On Nov 18, 2008, at 10:08 AM, William & Susan Schran User wrote:
> On 11/17/08 9:23 PM, "Vince Pitelka" wrote:
>
>> Hmmmm, now I am a little worried. When I talked to Pam at Larkin
>> last
>> spring and ordered the nitride bonded shelves for use in our soda
>> kiln, she
>> knew that they were for an educational setting and she recommended
>> them, and
>> said that a lot of customers had been using them successfully in
>> salt and
>> soda. I'd call her back and see if you can pin her down on what
>> might the
>> problem with the nitride bonded shelves in an educational setting.
>> I'd like
>> to know what she says.
>
> Vince,
>
> After several conversations with a variety of manufacturers and
> suppliers, I
> believe the oxide bonded and nitride bonded shelves are fine for
> wood and
> salt firings.
>
> Based on my testing so far in a gas fired kiln to a hot ^10, all
> Chinese
> manufactured oxide and nitride bonded SiC shelves should have
> expansion
> slits in them and should be rotated (flipped) on a regular basis to
> prevent
> deflection (warping).
>
> One MUST avoid flame impingement (direct flame contact) with any
> nitride
> bonded shelf (Advancer or Chinese made) and rapid heating ramps
> that may
> create uneven temperature gradients across the shelf. Both can lead
> to shelf
> failure. Also avoid spraying a water/soda solution directly on the
> shelves.
>
> The oxide bonded shelves are less prone to failure from the above
> issues.
>
> I think the issue with nitride bonded shelves in an educational
> setting is
> how the shelves are handled. The nitride bonded shelves are more
> dense/hard
> and may be more easily broken if they are mishandled/banged around.
>
> Bill
>
> --
> William "Bill" Schran
> wschran@cox.net
> wschran@nvcc.edu
> http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
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