W J Seidl on fri 21 nov 08
At the risk of this sounding like a lame post (so be it)
DUUUUUDE!
Why not?
The only torque stress on that shaft will be the resistance caused by
your hands holding the clay back
(to make it into whatever shape your little potter's heart desires, of
course) and some additional loading
when one kicks (or treadle pumps) the wheel (which then has to transfer
that stress to the wheelhead to increase the speed
at which it's revolving.)
You could build a treadle driveshaft out of papier mache and have it
work just as well, so long as you kept
within the limits of the stress the material can handle...or glass, or
chicken feathers, or beaks, or cardboard, whatever!
Use what you have, dude...like it's been done for centuries.
Oh, and by the way...you think all the wood in your house GREW that way?
That's why we invented tools.
Are you sure he wasn't just doing it that way because:
1) He was too lazy or unskilled to machine something better
2) to prove a point?
3) Because it worked just fine once he got used to it
hmmmmm? Fine woodworking is an art form, just like pottery. Not everyone
has the skill, or the inclination.
Best,
Wayne Seidl
chopping and splitting kindling (into some very interesting teapot
handle shapes)
Waite Maine
Taylor Hendrix wrote:
> Hey Ru!
>
> Listen, I thought it was wild man wild when I read in Pool's book how
> he built his wheel from scratch. His drive shaft/crank was a rough
> tree branch with the right bends to it! No wait. He went out into the
> WOOD and found a TREE branch and went home to make a treddle wheel.
> Um, he found something that worked, in the woods, on a tree. Dude, he
> used a stick for his treddle crank. What the ...?
>
>
> Taylor, in Rockport TX
>
John Rodgers on fri 21 nov 08
Lee, and all,
I have a friend who is a master jeweler - and as such he carves wax
jewelry models. He went to see a man with CAD/CAM equipment designed
specifically to carve jewelry waxes wanted to know if with the machine,
a better carving - a machine perfect carving - could be produced. . The
man took one look at my friends hand carved wax model, and said "There
is no way that this equipment- as state of the art as it is - can even
come close to your hand carved work.
And that is the way it is. While machines can do a lot, speed
production, lower costs per unit, etc, etc, you simply cannot beat a
hand made piece of work. It has an intrinsic value that machines cannot
impart.
My $0.02 this Friday Evening.
John Rodgers
Chelsea, AL
Lee Love wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 8:07 AM, Randall Moody wrote:
>
>
>> If I were in a third world country with limited ability or time to level my
>> wheel, I might agree with this.
>>
>
> "3rd World?" Are you using this like "Hillbilly?"
>
> Actually, traditional potters are very capable of precision.
> They often have eye and hand abilities that we never developed,
> because we are desensitized by our "precision" machines.
>
>
>> adjust to that. Do you have your tires balanced or do you just accept that
>> your car is going to dance down the road at 30 mph?
>>
>
> If we follow this rationale, should we all be using machine
> precision ram, jigger and slip molds? These are all more precise
> than "hand made."
>
>
>> Also, it can be said that a "bad tool" that gives you the result you want
>> isn't technically a "bad" tool but rather the "right" tool. :)
>>
>
> Hand made requires more skill than machined. You can buy all
> the toys you might desire, but you can never substitute a new toy for
> skill.
>
>
> --
> Lee Love in Minneapolis
> http://togeika.multiply.com/journal
> http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
> http://claycraft.blogspot.com/
>
> "Myth is cultural DNA, the software, the unconscious information, the
> program that governs the way we see 'reality.'" --Sam Keen
>
>
>
Russel Fouts on fri 21 nov 08
An interesting excerpt from Jeff Shapiro's article on Teabowls in the
current Ceramics Monthly.
"As Arakawa san put the stick in the hole and began to spin the
wheel, it was obvious that this wheel had been used for many years.
It was lobsided, undlating up and down as it turned. Arakawa san was
in perfect sync, his head moving up and down in harmony with the wheel."
For those who don't kwnow, Arakawa san was one of the greatest
teabowl makers ever and a Living National Treasure.
I've also seen people make fabulous pots on wheels that were
incredibly wobbly (wabbly-sabi?) or even on things that we might
barely call a wheel.
I don't believe that good tools necessarily make good work. It's like
Alan Caiger-Smith said to Mick Casson years ago, 'There is no such
thing as a bad brush" and then proceeded to paint on a tile making
beautiful marks with ink and a piece of old string.
You could argue, "yes, but they are both masters at their craft with
years of experience" but you'd be missing the point. Each tool, good
or bad makes it's own mark and you can create wonderful work when you
learn to use the mark the tool makes. You do this with good tools,
why not with bad as well?
I was inspired by Alan's comment and have since deliberately sought
out balding, frizzled brushes, spitting sprayers etc to use in my
work for the unique marks they make.
In addition, many of the surfaces that we think have the most
character; crackling celedons, crawling shinos, over or underfired
what evers with bits of crumbling anagama stuck in them are all
considered faults by some, beautiful by others.
Thinking of clay bodies as tools, many of the clays that we as
potters love would not be acceptable to industry which requires uniformity.
I don't believe that bad tools are any more difficult to learn to use
than good tools, just different. Apprentice potters in the third
world don't start out on a perfectly level Brent CXC and them move to
the wobbly wheel as they gain experience. They start out on the
wobbly wheel because it's what they have and learn to make great pots on it.
Good tools make a more uniform, perhaps more easily controlled mark,
surface or product but a bad tool, learned to control, can make a
less uniform mark, surface or product that, used in a creative way,
could be far more interesting.
It's also interesting that this issue of CM contains an article
Gareth Mason (read the side bar).
So maybe one should think twice about adjusting that wheel? ;-)
Russel
Russel Fouts
Mes Potes & Mes Pots
Brussels, Belgium
Tel: +32 2 223 02 75
Mobile: +32 476 55 38 75
Http://www.mypots.com
Home of "The Potters Portal"
Over 3000 Pottery Related Links!
Updated frequently
"The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights
shall not be construed to deny or disparage others
retained by the people"
9th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America
Randall Moody on fri 21 nov 08
On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 7:06 AM, Russel Fouts wrote:
> An interesting excerpt from Jeff Shapiro's article on Teabowls in the
> current Ceramics Monthly.
>
If I were in a third world country with limited ability or time to level my
wheel, I might agree with this. I have the advantage of being able to easily
level my wheel and would rather start from a non-wobbly platform and have th
option of changing it rather than starting with a wobbly one and try to
adjust to that. Do you have your tires balanced or do you just accept that
your car is going to dance down the road at 30 mph?
Also, it can be said that a "bad tool" that gives you the result you want
isn't technically a "bad" tool but rather the "right" tool. :)
--
Randall in Atlanta
Lee Love on fri 21 nov 08
Throwing off the hump is "auto leveling."
--
Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://togeika.multiply.com/journal
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
http://claycraft.blogspot.com/
"Myth is cultural DNA, the software, the unconscious information, the
program that governs the way we see 'reality.'" --Sam Keen
Taylor Hendrix on fri 21 nov 08
Hey Ru!
Listen, I thought it was wild man wild when I read in Pool's book how
he built his wheel from scratch. His drive shaft/crank was a rough
tree branch with the right bends to it! No wait. He went out into the
WOOD and found a TREE branch and went home to make a treddle wheel.
Um, he found something that worked, in the woods, on a tree. Dude, he
used a stick for his treddle crank. What the ...?
Taylor, in Rockport TX
wirerabbit1 on Skype (-0500 UTC)
http://wirerabbit.blogspot.com
http://wirerabbitpots.blogspot.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wirerabbit/
On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 6:06 AM, Russel Fouts wrote:
> An interesting excerpt from Jeff Shapiro's article on Teabowls in the
> current Ceramics Monthly.
>
> "As Arakawa san put the stick in the hole and began to spin the
> wheel, it was obvious that this wheel had been used for many years.
> It was lobsided, undlating up and down as it turned. Arakawa san was
> in perfect sync, his head moving up and down in harmony with the wheel."
>
> For those who don't kwnow, Arakawa san was one of the greatest
> teabowl makers ever and a Living National Treasure.
>
> I've also seen people make fabulous pots on wheels that were
> incredibly wobbly (wabbly-sabi?) or even on things that we might
> barely call a wheel.
>
> I don't believe that good tools necessarily make good work. It's like
> Alan Caiger-Smith said to Mick Casson years ago, 'There is no such
> thing as a bad brush" and then proceeded to paint on a tile making
> beautiful marks with ink and a piece of old string.
>
> You could argue, "yes, but they are both masters at their craft with
> years of experience" but you'd be missing the point. Each tool, good
> or bad makes it's own mark and you can create wonderful work when you
> learn to use the mark the tool makes. You do this with good tools,
> why not with bad as well?
>
> I was inspired by Alan's comment and have since deliberately sought
> out balding, frizzled brushes, spitting sprayers etc to use in my
> work for the unique marks they make.
>
> In addition, many of the surfaces that we think have the most
> character; crackling celedons, crawling shinos, over or underfired
> what evers with bits of crumbling anagama stuck in them are all
> considered faults by some, beautiful by others.
>
> Thinking of clay bodies as tools, many of the clays that we as
> potters love would not be acceptable to industry which requires uniformity.
>
> I don't believe that bad tools are any more difficult to learn to use
> than good tools, just different. Apprentice potters in the third
> world don't start out on a perfectly level Brent CXC and them move to
> the wobbly wheel as they gain experience. They start out on the
> wobbly wheel because it's what they have and learn to make great pots on it.
>
> Good tools make a more uniform, perhaps more easily controlled mark,
> surface or product but a bad tool, learned to control, can make a
> less uniform mark, surface or product that, used in a creative way,
> could be far more interesting.
>
> It's also interesting that this issue of CM contains an article
> Gareth Mason (read the side bar).
>
> So maybe one should think twice about adjusting that wheel? ;-)
>
> Russel
>
>
>
>
> Russel Fouts
> Mes Potes & Mes Pots
> Brussels, Belgium
> Tel: +32 2 223 02 75
> Mobile: +32 476 55 38 75
>
> Http://www.mypots.com
> Home of "The Potters Portal"
> Over 3000 Pottery Related Links!
> Updated frequently
>
> "The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights
> shall not be construed to deny or disparage others
> retained by the people"
>
> 9th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America
>
Lee Love on fri 21 nov 08
On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 8:07 AM, Randall Moody wrote:
>
> If I were in a third world country with limited ability or time to level my
> wheel, I might agree with this.
"3rd World?" Are you using this like "Hillbilly?"
Actually, traditional potters are very capable of precision.
They often have eye and hand abilities that we never developed,
because we are desensitized by our "precision" machines.
> adjust to that. Do you have your tires balanced or do you just accept that
> your car is going to dance down the road at 30 mph?
If we follow this rationale, should we all be using machine
precision ram, jigger and slip molds? These are all more precise
than "hand made."
> Also, it can be said that a "bad tool" that gives you the result you want
> isn't technically a "bad" tool but rather the "right" tool. :)
Hand made requires more skill than machined. You can buy all
the toys you might desire, but you can never substitute a new toy for
skill.
--
Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://togeika.multiply.com/journal
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
http://claycraft.blogspot.com/
"Myth is cultural DNA, the software, the unconscious information, the
program that governs the way we see 'reality.'" --Sam Keen
john dellow on sat 22 nov 08
Randall Moody wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 7:06 AM, Russel Fouts w=
rote:
>
> =20
>> An interesting excerpt from Jeff Shapiro's article on Teabowls in the
>> current Ceramics Monthly.
>>
>> =20
>
> If I were in a third world country with limited ability or time to leve=
l my
> wheel, I might agree with this. I have the advantage of being able to e=
asily
> level my wheel and would rather start from a non-wobbly platform and ha=
ve th
> option of changing it rather than starting with a wobbly one and try to
> adjust to that. Do you have your tires balanced or do you just accept t=
hat
> your car is going to dance down the road at 30 mph?
> Also, it can be said that a "bad tool" that gives you the result you wa=
nt
> isn't technically a "bad" tool but rather the "right" tool. :)
>
> --
> Randall in Atlanta
>
>
>
> =20
I
rember a Greek potter in Sydney making terracotta chimney pots who used=20
a kick wheel with the sharft set at an angle of 45 degrees. He also sat=20
side on to kick and throw.
--=20
John Dellow
The potter formelly known as=20
=91The Flower Pot Man=92
www.welcome.to/jkdellow
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sagers/
http://www.flickr.com/people/32394951@N04/
Randall Moody on sat 22 nov 08
I am using the term "third world" in direct reference to, " Apprentice
potters in the third
world don't start out on a perfectly level Brent CXC and them move to
the wobbly wheel as they gain experience."
I didn't insinuate that traditional potters were any less capable of
precision. You also use the term "we" when saying that "we are desensitized
by our precision machines. This is an overly broad statement and simply your
opinion. I also never said that skill could be substituted by machine.
Also, it can be said that a "bad tool" that gives you the result you want
isn't technically a "bad" tool but rather the "right" tool.
--
Randall in Atlanta
Lee Love on sat 22 nov 08
On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 6:06 AM, Russel Fouts wrote:
> I don't believe that good tools necessarily make good work. It's like
> Alan Caiger-Smith said to Mick Casson years ago, 'There is no such
> thing as a bad brush" and then proceeded to paint on a tile making
> beautiful marks with ink and a piece of old string.
I watched the Shokunin craftman I worked beside for 3 years take
impeccable care of his tools. He started with Shoji Hamada at the
age of 14. The head thrower and shop manager started with Shimaoka
at the age of 14. Both of these men's fathers and mothers worked at
these shops before them.
No bad tools: only the right tool for the right job.
> In addition, many of the surfaces that we think have the most
> character; crackling celedons, crawling shinos, over or underfired
> what evers with bits of crumbling anagama stuck in them are all
> considered faults by some, beautiful by others.
>
I am back to using Sander's Tamba over Rhodes crackle slip. The
nice aspect of this, is that you get the interesting crackle look, but
it is under a transparent glaze. My last firing was in a dandy
little soda kiln. Folks dump a lot of soda in the kiln, so I didn't
add any. Just used wads and shells and let the residual do the work
for me.
There are ways to get these wonderful traditional effects while
also keeping them safe for use. My first rule is "garbage in,
garbage out." Don't begin with hazardous materials.
> Thinking of clay bodies as tools, many of the clays that we as
> potters love would not be acceptable to industry which requires uniformity.
At my show at Raymond Ave Gallery (Up utill Dec 19th All sold work
remains at the show until the end):
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
At the opening, I spent a lot of time explaining the difference
between my work made in Japan and my work made here in Minnesota.
The base difference is that almost all the Mashiko materials are all
natural, unrefined materials. In my Minnesotan work, I search out
many natural materials and also modify our usual industrial materials
to make them more like the natural, potter specific materials. I
have several examples of "You Betcha'" Ko-shigaraki clay I have been
working on. Some are difficult to tell apart from the original.
> So maybe one should think twice about adjusting that wheel? ;-)
I think everyone should learn on a manual wheel, especially the
low momentum Korean wheel (Mine was picked up in Mashiko on Friday and
is coming to me via sea cargo! Jean packed 66 boxes. 45 days to get
here.)
Once you get proficient on the manual wheel, you know how to
operate the electric wheel in order to get the results you want. If
all you know is the electric, you never know the difference.
Also, traditional potters all know how to deal with the lack of
precision in dealing with non-industrial materials and tools.
Below is a post of mine from about 4 years back related to this topic:
http://www.potters.org/subject79327.htm/
http://www.potters.org/subject76507.htm/
Photos from my opening:
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
--
Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://togeika.multiply.com/journal
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
http://claycraft.blogspot.com/
"Myth is cultural DNA, the software, the unconscious information, the
program that governs the way we see 'reality.'" --Sam Keen
"People that deny their myth and think they only act 'rationally',
are simply living an unconscious life." -- Clay Mudman
Russel Fouts on sun 23 nov 08
>> Do you have your tires balanced or do you just accept that your
car is going to dance down the road at 30 mph? <<
Just to be clear, I never meant to imply the use of dangerous tools.
Russel
Russel Fouts
Mes Potes & Mes Pots
Brussels, Belgium
Tel: +32 2 223 02 75
Mobile: +32 476 55 38 75
http://www.mypots.com
Home of "The Potters Portal"
Over 3000 Pottery Related Links!
Updated infrequently
"Look, it's my misery that I have to paint this kind of painting,
it's your misery that you have to love it, and the price of the
misery is thirteen hundred and fifty dollars. "
- Mark Rothko, In Art/Painting
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