Deborah Thuman on sat 5 sep 09
I got a scholarship to attend a two-day workshop given by Blaine
Meerfeld and I'm learning lots of interesting things. During the
workshop, the topic of pricing work came up and Blaine said not to
price mugs at $12 because that was too cheap and hurts potters
overall. His mugs are $24.
I thought about that a bit and started to wonder if my lack of success
on etsy is because of my low prices. (And yes, I have considered that
perhaps my work sucks.)
Now it happened that one of the other clay people at the workshop had
on a beaded bracelet. The bracelet resembled a pattern a friend of
mine uses. I asked who made the bracelet. Turns out the woman bought
it at a sale of goods made by people in Guatemala. Price for a beaded
bracelet: $3. That doesn't even cover the price of the beads.
Maybe I am thinking too much along the lines of Wal-Mart pricing.
Maybe I'm not considering the true cost of making an item. I'm using
the university's kilns so I have no idea what the energy costs are for
firing a kiln load. I buy commercial clay and we're making our own
glazes now so I know what raw materials cost. I'm also not considering
the cost of space - the space the item takes up in my house until it's
sold. Space that I could be using for something else.
I know I'm not considering the cost of my talent. Funny, when I was in
private law practice I knew to the penny what the cost of my talent
was. I knew the going hourly rate for attorneys and I knew where I was
pricing myself compared to other attorneys who did similar work. I
knew the cost of my overhead and I knew my profit margin. I know what
the cost of my talent is now because I am paid by the hour although
I've no idea what the cost of overhead is now - that's paid by the
state.
Why am I having problems putting a similar price on my art talent? Not
everyone can practice law. Not everyone can make art.
Something tells me I'm not going to get much sleep tonight because I'm
going to have these thoughts flying about in my head.
Deb Thuman
http://debthumansblog.blogspot.com/
http://www.etsy.com/shop.php?user_id=3D5888059
Pottery by jeff walker on tue 8 sep 09
I would tend to disagree with the statement you can not make money on a =3D
$12 mug. If you throw fast enough, say 30 mugs an hour. that's pretty =3D
good money considering you have about $2 in firing cost (firing to cone =3D
10 gas and bisque), $.75 in clay and $.50 in glaze which brings you to =3D
$3.25 in fixed cost. Add in another $1 for overhead and you still have =3D
less than $5 in that $12 mug. I do charge more than that for my mugs, =3D
and I feel that pricing is a very personal thing for all of us. But you =
=3D
should sell mugs for what you feel they are worth! The customer who =3D
sees quality will buy, and those who are shopping price are more likely =3D
to go to wal-mart for that $5 mug than an artist who has put their life =3D
into their work. Just my two cents worth. :)
KATHI LESUEUR on tue 8 sep 09
On Sep 7, 2009, at 8:35 PM, Cindi Anderson wrote:
> Is it possible they are not too expensive but simply too small? I
> often see
> mugs potters have made that are gorgeous, but I only use large mugs
> so I
> just won't buy them. It's not a price issue. (Or there are other
> things I
> am picky about with mugs. ......
> Point being, in my opinion mugs have to fit much tighter functional
> specs
> than other pieces.
>
> Cindi
I disagree here. I have a standard mug size. I have customers who ask
for bigger mugs. I have customers who want smaller mugs. At one time
I tried to please them all. In my house I have 12 oz. mugs that I use
for tea. But, I have four small mugs (about eight ounce) from Mark
Nafziger that I use for coffee. Given a choice, many of my friends
choose one of those mugs. I paid the same for those mugs as he
charges for his larger mugs. They're worth it.
So, in my experience it is just the opposite. Mugs don't have tighter
specs.
KATHI LESUEUR
http://www.lesueurclaywork.com
June on tue 8 sep 09
Jeff,
You're not accounting for time and/or money spent wedging, handle pulling a=
nd applying handles, trimming, wax and waxing time, bat cleaning time, glaz=
e mixing and sieving, cleanup, shelf wash, mixing and applying shelf wash=
, shelf cleaning, kiln loading, firing, unloading, packing and shipping or=
delivery time and costs, advertising, time and money to go and get or have=
clay shipped, equipment depreciation, advertising, etc etc. I don't think=
an extra dollar could cover all the hidden costs.
Regards,
June
http://www.shambhalapottery.blogspot.com
http://www.shambhalapottery.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sodasaltfiring/
http://saltandsodafiring.ning.com/
http://ncclayclub.blogspot.com
________________________________
From: Pottery by jeff walker
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 7:40:55 AM
Subject: Re: A few thoughts on the price of mugs
I would tend to disagree with the statement you can not make money on a $12=
mug. If you throw fast enough, say 30 mugs an hour. that's pretty good m=
oney considering you have about $2 in firing cost (firing to cone 10 gas an=
d bisque), $.75 in clay and $.50 in glaze which brings you to $3.25 in fixe=
d cost. Add in another $1 for overhead and you still have less than $5 in =
that $12 mug. I do charge more than that for my mugs, and I feel that pric=
ing is a very personal thing for all of us. But you should sell mugs for w=
hat you feel they are worth! The customer who sees quality will buy, and t=
hose who are shopping price are more likely to go to wal-mart for that $5 m=
ug than an artist who has put their life into their work. Just my two cent=
s worth. :)
Richard Mahaffey on tue 8 sep 09
Jennifer,
Your list of items to consider is good but for one or two things you need t=
o
add. You forgot your profit margin, the percentage you should get for bein=
g
in business and investing your money and time. The profit margin should be
more than you can get by investing your money in a CD or savings account at
the very least. There should be some amount added to the $12.00 to give yo=
u
a return on the $12 of time and overhead you have in each mug at the
wholesale level. Any other manufacturer does this. Also, included in the
overhead would be cleaning your studio after making a run of mugs and kiln
loading/unloading time.
Rick Mahaffey
----------Jennifer Boyer wrote:-----------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 09:37:07 -0400
From: Jennifer Boyer
Subject: Re: A few thoughts on the price of mugs
This is a tough one, but I agree with Blaine. $12 is too cheap. My
mugs are $23 and $24 and most of the full time potters around here are
in that range. You have to use the market place as a research tool and
see what other potters in your area are getting.
My theory of pricing is that I sell my pots for the same price at
galleries and at my own studio or at a show, if possible. Wholesale
pricing should cover the cost of making the piece: overhead, material,
labor. So if my mug is $24 retail, $12 covers the making of it. The
other $12 is for marketing and selling. I get it if I sit at a show,
or maintain a retail space in my studio. A gallery gets it if they buy
from me wholesale. Whoever sells the mug gets the extra $12 of
marketing expense.
So your $12 mug should be able to sell at wholesale for $6.00. No way
you can make a mug for that.
Jennifer
Clyde Tullis on thu 10 sep 09
Steve and June you are right. Ones profit, net or take home pay is always=
=3D
rosie if you short cut the system to estimate your costs. Over the years=
=3D
I
had the opportunity to bid and deliver several large runs of work and it
made it perfectly clear how much I was making per piece.
Take the expenses half of your books. Direct costs are the clay, etc.=3D20
Indirect is EVERYTHING else.
Now imagine that someone came to you and said they would buy every mug yo=
=3D
u
could make in a year. 5 days a week =3D3D 260 days. A couple weeks off for=
=3D
vacation. However you want to do it. Lets say 250 days. Just for gigg=
=3D
les
lets say you make 50 / day That's 12,500 mugs. Times $12 + 150,000. Sou=
=3D
nds
good if you are figuring $6 for your direct and indirect costs. You woul=
=3D
d
be making 75 K. But is that all your costs? Auto, phone, internet,
computer, insurance, ....everything on your "categories" list for the ye=
=3D
ar
divided by 12,500 mugs.
An interesting bit of knowledge is - how many mugs would you have to mak=
=3D
e
before you started to overtake your annual expenses?
This is measuring with a shorter ruler.
Now do you want to sell at fairs or wholesale?
Best Regards,
Clyde
steve graber on thu 10 sep 09
once i reviewed "what if" i did clay full time?=3D
take that further - =3D0A=3D0Aonce i reviewed "what if" i did clay full tim=
e?=3D
=3DA0 365 days a year, minus 2 days a week for weekends (of SOMEsort), minu=
s =3D
3 weeks vacation, minus maybe 7 sick days, minus 10 hollidays, minus 8 days=
=3D
a month at a show of some sort.=3DA0 minus days to fire, glaze, do the boo=
ks=3D
, get supplies, clean, etc.=3D0A=3D0Ai ended up seeing just 2 days a week w=
ere =3D
left to actually produce.=3DA0 the rest was firing, trimming, glazing, etc.=
=3D
=3DA0 =3D0A=3D0Aso those 50 mugs a day?=3DA0 100 a week?=3DA0 with a 3% scr=
ap rate?=3D
=3DA0 at $12 each?=3DA0 that's $1200 a week GROSS.=3DA0 take out material c=
osts, =3D
etc (scrap), and that $1200 quickly drops to a lower net number.=3DA0 =3D0A=
=3D0Ai=3D
reviewed what i made to see what makes sense to actually make?=3DA0 just b=
ec=3D
ause you CAN make something doens't mean you SHOULD.=3DA0 and keeping the p=
ro=3D
duct variations down to a small controllable number helps a lot.=3DA0 likew=
is=3D
e the colors available.=3DA0 you can see how many products, many colors, yi=
el=3D
ds a wild matrix of products to show and maintain inventory of.=3DA0 =3D0A=
=3D0Afo=3D
r me taking a bowl a smidge further from a $12 size bowl to a $15 or $25 bo=
=3D
wl made more sense than trying to simply make "more" pieces.=3DA0 =3D0A=3D0=
Afor m=3D
e, and my quality, i kept the day job....=3DA0 =3D0A=3DA0Steve Graber, Grab=
er's P=3D
ottery, Inc=3D0AClaremont, California USA=3D0AThe Steve Tool - for awesum t=
extu=3D
re on pots! =3D0Awww.graberspottery.com steve@graberspottery.com =3D0A=3D0A=
=3D0AOn =3D
Laguna Clay's website=3D0Ahttp://www.lagunaclay.com/blogs/ =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=
=3D0A=3D0A___=3D
_____________________________=3D0AFrom: Clyde Tullis =
=3D0A=3D
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG=3D0ASent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 7:52:53=
A=3D
M=3D0ASubject: Re: A few thoughts on the price of mugs=3D0A=3D0ASteve and J=
une yo=3D
u are right. Ones profit, net or take home pay is always=3D0Arosie if you s=
ho=3D
rt cut the system to estimate your costs.=3DA0 Over the years I=3D0Ahad the=
opp=3D
ortunity to bid and deliver several large runs of work and it=3D0Amade it p=
er=3D
fectly clear how much I was making per piece.=3D0A=3D0ATake the expenses ha=
lf o=3D
f your books. Direct costs are the clay, etc. =3D0AIndirect is EVERYTHING e=
ls=3D
e.=3D0A=3D0ANow imagine that someone came to you and said they would buy ev=
ery =3D
mug you=3D0Acould make in a year.=3DA0 5 days a week =3D3D 260 days. A coup=
le wee=3D
ks off for=3D0Avacation.=3DA0 However you want to do it.=3DA0 Lets say=3DA0=
250 day=3D
s.=3DA0 Just for giggles=3D0Alets say you make 50 / day=3DA0 That's 12,500 =
mugs. =3D
Times $12 + 150,000.=3DA0 Sounds=3D0Agood if you are figuring $6 for your d=
irec=3D
t and indirect costs.=3DA0 You would=3D0Abe making 75 K. But is that all yo=
ur c=3D
osts?=3DA0 Auto, phone, internet,=3D0Acomputer, insurance,=3DA0 ....everyth=
ing on=3D
your "categories" list for the year=3D0Adivided by 12,500 mugs.=3D0AAn int=
eres=3D
ting bit of knowledge is - how many mugs would you have to make=3D0Abefore =
yo=3D
u started to overtake your annual expenses?=3D0A=3D0AThis is measuring with=
a s=3D
horter ruler.=3D0A=3D0ANow do you want to sell at fairs or wholesale?=3D0A=
=3D0ABest=3D
Regards,=3D0A=3D0AClyde=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A
Lee Love on thu 10 sep 09
On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 4:25 PM, steve graber wrote:
> so those 50 mugs a day?=3DA0 100 a week?=3DA0 with a 3% scrap rate?=3DA0 =
at $12=3D
each?
>=3DA0 that's $1200 a week GROSS.=3DA0 take out material costs, etc (scrap)=
, an=3D
d that >$1200 quickly drops to a lower net number.
My $15.00 mugs make me more money than my $24.00 mugs. The
$15.00 mugs are singled fired to 03 in electric, so cost me less to
produce.
My $150.00 chawan make more money, even if they are fired
three times.
I believe a range of work is the best way to go. You can
have a few "loss leaders" that can bring folks in to buy your higher
priced things.
The $12.00 mug argument is a one dimensional straw man argument.
--
Lee Love, Minneapolis
"The tea ceremony bowl is the ceramic equivalent of a sonnet: a
small-scale, seemingly constricted form that challenges the artist to
go beyond mere technical virtuosity and find an approach that both
satisfies and transcends the conventions." -- Rob Sliberman
full essay: http://togeika.multiply.com/journal/item/273/
Lee Love on thu 10 sep 09
On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 8:52 PM, Lee Love wrote:
> =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0My $15.00 mugs make me more money than my $24.00 m=
ugs. =3DA0=3D
The
> $15.00 mugs are singled fired to 03 in electric, so cost me less to
> produce.
This is especially true when you take in the fact that my
earthenware line can only be bought directly from me. Whereas
some of the $24.00 mugs have to split a 40 to 50% in commissions.
I don't have work in shows, shops and galleries for the
money they produce, but as a way to find new customers and more
exposure to the work.
--
Lee Love, Minneapolis
"The tea ceremony bowl is the ceramic equivalent of a sonnet: a
small-scale, seemingly constricted form that challenges the artist to
go beyond mere technical virtuosity and find an approach that both
satisfies and transcends the conventions." -- Rob Sliberman
full essay: http://togeika.multiply.com/journal/item/273/
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