Deborah Thuman on tue 9 jun 09
What a great idea!
Jim and I take ceramics classes at New Mexico State University because
Jim works there and we get the classes for free. This works for our
budget. Alas, like many institutions, each department is its own
little fiefdom. Work with another department? AAAUUUGGHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!
Some are sure the world will stop turning if that happens.
And so here I am mixing glazes. I've no idea what I'm doing or why I'm
doing it. What does each ingredient do for the glaze? The chemistry
department could be a huge help here.
Why does aged and reclaimed clay throw better than freshly made clay?
(Yeah, I know it's bacteria - but why is that important and does the
type of bacteria matter?) The biology department could be a huge help
here.
How do I adjust formulas so I can make this a little different and
make a different sized batch? The math department could be a real help
here.
How do I price my work so that I'm not losing money but also not
pricing myself out of the market? The business department could be a
real help here.
How do I make this large sculpture so that it won't crack in the kiln
and it won't fall apart before firing? The engineering department
could be a real help here.
Many years ago when I was in high school, I had a health teacher who
was teaching only because he flunked carving and had to leave dental
school. Later, when I went to law school, my teeth went to dental
school to be overhauled for an incredibly cheap price ($160 for a full
cast crown). I learned that dentists have to be artists, to know about
metal work, to know about science, and a whole lot of other cool stuff.
If we can bring all that together into dental school, we surely can
bring all that together for art students. Imagine what a little
imagination and cooperation could do for an art department?
Deb Thuman
http://debthumansblog.blogspot.com/
http://www.etsy.com/shop.php?user_id=3D5888059
Bill Merrill on tue 9 jun 09
Deb,
A college instructor that teaches clay without teaching fundamentals
isn't teaching, the instructor is taking the easy way out. A good
instructor taxes the students do better and teach them foundations. The
learning curve can be steep. There are those who know and are not
capable of developing a good eye. I don't know when I get new students
if they don't know, do not see or don't have any skill. It's my job to
develop the student in those areas. Students must have or gain ability.
Does the student see? Deos the student have a sense of form? Sometimes
I don't know if they lack skill or they don't see. I then have to help
the student develop a sense of form and to help develop their skills.
Some students take certain classes because they are required to take
them and the student doesn't want to be there. Students don't rise to
low expectations. Potters work hard to become a strong artist because
they have drive and were driven in some way. Good artists make things
look effortless, but only after discipline. First one has to have
discipline , then struggle to be free of it. We must learn and then
dismiss some of those things so we can do our own work. =3D20
Most people take a ceramics class with the idea of making things with
understanding all that goes into a piece . There are so many places
along the way that a pot can fail.=3D20
A good class in clay should help students understand basics of form,
understanding of clay, glazes and fire. It's a great deal of work in a
short time. =3D20
Math Departments can only help potters with math, chemistry departments
are not always helpful to the ceramic student, etc. =3D20
The idea of clay aging is something that can be a misconception to
beginners. There are clays that are small particles in size and large
particles in size. The more particles there are the more clay will seem
aged. Clay only ages in geologic time. What is happening when we add
water to a clay is the spaces between the particles slide over one
another more and the clay will stretch more without cracking. Clay is
held together by suction between the particles.
Glaze chemistry is another story. If one understands materials that is
the most important thing to start with. Fusion buttons of a material
like whiting and a spar as a basis will show the fluxing power of a
material. Doing single fusion buttons of various spars will show the
way way they melt. Spars are the major constituents of a glaze. To do
glazes without understanding how a given colorant like copper for
example give the finish color to a glaze. Copper for example in a high
dolomite and clay glaze will not give a copper red, the glaze will be
liver colored. When one chooses a school, it's the person teaching
there that is the most important, not the school itself. I was lucky to
live in a place where there were lots of natural materials and that
encouraged me to test materials. Later I worked on other necessary
parts of glaze calculation. Learning about low fire and mid fire glazes
are more complex because of frits than learning about high fire glazes.
One has to start somewhere. =3D20
The last thing a student should think about is how much they should sell
their work for. First good work then the sales will come into play. I
think an area that needs to be addressed in school is the artist from a
business point of view. Students are into their art and all of a sudden,
they have to make a living, starting with a great debt with their
student loans. Not all graduates are teachers. After all who's going
to make the art if there are only teachers. A perfect example of being
an artist, producing super professional work and also being a teacher is
Val Cushing!=3D20
There is just too much to relate to in a letter and I....
Keep making pots the best one are yet to be done!
Bill Merrill
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Deborah
Thuman
Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 7:21 AM
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Art and science working together
What a great idea!
Jim and I take ceramics classes at New Mexico State University because
Jim works there and we get the classes for free. This works for our
budget. Alas, like many institutions, each department is its own
little fiefdom. Work with another department? AAAUUUGGHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!
Some are sure the world will stop turning if that happens.
And so here I am mixing glazes. I've no idea what I'm doing or why I'm
doing it. What does each ingredient do for the glaze? The chemistry
department could be a huge help here.
Why does aged and reclaimed clay throw better than freshly made clay?
(Yeah, I know it's bacteria - but why is that important and does the
type of bacteria matter?) The biology department could be a huge help
here.
How do I adjust formulas so I can make this a little different and
make a different sized batch? The math department could be a real help
here.
How do I price my work so that I'm not losing money but also not
pricing myself out of the market? The business department could be a
real help here.
How do I make this large sculpture so that it won't crack in the kiln
and it won't fall apart before firing? The engineering department
could be a real help here.
Many years ago when I was in high school, I had a health teacher who
was teaching only because he flunked carving and had to leave dental
school. Later, when I went to law school, my teeth went to dental
school to be overhauled for an incredibly cheap price ($160 for a full
cast crown). I learned that dentists have to be artists, to know about
metal work, to know about science, and a whole lot of other cool stuff.
If we can bring all that together into dental school, we surely can
bring all that together for art students. Imagine what a little
imagination and cooperation could do for an art department?
Deb Thuman
http://debthumansblog.blogspot.com/
http://www.etsy.com/shop.php?user_id=3D3D5888059
Lee Love on tue 9 jun 09
Clay is more approachable than many of the high arts. Most folks
who take clay classes will never be potters or ceramic artists. But
they do come away from clay being appreciators of people who do make a
living at it, because they know enough to know what it takes to make
good pots.
Whine if you must. But please don't chase the non-potters away.
--
Lee Love, Minneapolis
"The tea ceremony bowl is the ceramic equivalent of a sonnet: a
small-scale, seemingly constricted form that challenges the artist to
go beyond mere technical virtuosity and find an approach that both
satisfies and transcends the conventions." -- Rob Sliberman
full essay: http://togeika.multiply.com/journal/item/273/
ivor & olive lewis on fri 12 jun 09
Yes Des,
You did say Humic Acids.
Humic acid is derived from Humus.
Being a complex carbohydrate Humic acid will eventually oxidise to Carbon
dioxide and water if exposed to air or oxygen.
Of concern to me would be bacterial activity under anaerobic conditions,
where air is excluded from organic matter. Many of the bacteria that are
anaerobes produce toxic residues.
I suppose the most prevalent organic substance in clay that is being
reclaimed will be from the epidermis of the potter working at the wheel..
Interesting topic.
All the best,
Ivor
Des & Jan Howard on fri 12 jun 09
Ivor
Actually stable humic acids can survive for millenia
sometimes tightly bound to clay particles. Thus they
play no part in nutrient addition but do affect the
physical structure of soil.
Some anaerobic bacterial activity can produce toxic
residues, as you mention, but silage which is essential
to much farming activity, relies on anaerobes to do the
work.
Actually my most plastic reclaims were obtained during
our sojourn in a Sydney tourist venue. These were from
my wheel slops, post demos, post lunch. Short of space
I ate at my wheel, I think it was the hamburger
drippings & the cheesecake crumbs.
Des
ivor & olive lewis wrote:
> Humic acid is derived from Humus.
> Being a complex carbohydrate Humic acid will eventually oxidise to Carbon
> dioxide and water if exposed to air or oxygen.
> Of concern to me would be bacterial activity under anaerobic conditions,
> where air is excluded from organic matter. Many of the bacteria that are
> anaerobes produce toxic residues.
>
> I suppose the most prevalent organic substance in clay that is being
> reclaimed will be from the epidermis of the potter working at the wheel..
--
Des & Jan Howard
Lue Pottery
Lue NSW
Australia
2850
02 6373 6419
www.luepottery.hwy.com.au
-32.656072 149.840624
ivor & olive lewis on sat 13 jun 09
Des,
You may be correct about the exceptional longevity of Humus and its
derivatives. Possibly in its final stage of decomposition it become
Anthracite.
I doubt very much if this discussion about Humus and Humic acid really
enhances our general understanding of the nature of Tetrahedral/Octahedral
alumino-silicate clay minerals and their relationship with water, or the
development of floc structures that promote the quality of Plastic
Deformation under stress imposed during various forms of mechanical
processing.
But it may contribute to the production of some rather interesting and
potentially humorous Folklore.
For a Scientific view of Plastic Deformation consult Kingery, W. D. and hi=
s
co-authors, "Introduction to Ceramics. 2nd ed. Ch 14, Plastic Deformation,
Viscous Flow and Creep", pp 704-765. 1976.
For a Scientific View of Clay-Water relationships consult Ralph E. Grim.
"Clay Mineralogy" Ch. 8, pp 161-189, 1953
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis,
Redhill,
South Australia
Des & Jan Howard on sat 13 jun 09
Ivor
My aim in this discussion was point out the possibility
that colloidal organic material from whatever source &
whenever introduced into the clay mix has an effect on
plasticity. Fresh materials introduced into our
crush/blunge/screen/filter press sequence have a
distinct time difference in making cakes of a given
'stiffness'. Slip left for weeks in the blunger or
reclaims, even dry scrap recrushed, extend the cake
making time by 15-20%. So we blend new & old. Something
is making it more difficult to force the water out,
something that is co-incident with increased
workability of the clay.
Folklore? Possibly.
Explanations. Many, varied.
Usability? Most definitely!
Des
ivor & olive lewis wrote:
> You may be correct about the exceptional longevity of Humus and its
> derivatives. Possibly in its final stage of decomposition it become
> Anthracite.
> I doubt very much if this discussion about Humus and Humic acid really
> enhances our general understanding of the nature of Tetrahedral/Octahedra=
l
> alumino-silicate clay minerals and their relationship with water, or the
> development of floc structures that promote the quality of Plastic
> Deformation under stress imposed during various forms of mechanical
> processing.
>
> But it may contribute to the production of some rather interesting and
> potentially humorous Folklore.
--
Des & Jan Howard
Lue Pottery
Lue NSW
Australia
2850
02 6373 6419
www.luepottery.hwy.com.au
-32.656072 149.840624
Neon-Cat on fri 19 jun 09
Ivor wrote (under =3D93: Art and science working together =3D93) Dear Maria=
n,
You invent an interesting diagram to represent the structure of a typical
clay.
Perhaps you would like to explain why you did not take the composition of
one of your own clay bodies, or a typical example from the writing Daniel
Rhodes or Michael Cardew and translate that into diagrammatic form. Such a
presentation would make your argument more persuasive.
I will try to get a look at "Engineering Geology". Dou you have the name of
the publisher or the ISBN
Ivor, a typical clay body, per Rhodes or most anybody, contains clay,
fillers (non-plastics), fluxes (non-plastics), and water.
My pic of a clay body looks typical to me, especially if one is
working with native clays. Silt may be defined as particles of matter
with a size between that of sand and clay. Water may contain a variety
of ions or other substances. The =3D93sand=3D94 in my diagram, as suggested=
by
my previous post, can be any non-plastic material. The pic could be
one of my native clay bodies sans rhizomes (ants I let wander off and
a stray grub or two I remove prior to screening to 18-20 mesh so I
didn=3D92t include them in the diagram).
One of the points of my post was to bring out the fact that we do not,
in a clay body, deal just with the properties of individual specific
clay minerals themselves but the whole rest of what is in our clay
body that must hold together while being plastic, workable, fusible,
and dense enough after firing for our individual purposes.
Another point in my previous post, in contrast to your disparaging
remarks about potter folklore, was to point out that soil organic
matter and its microorganisms can have significant effects on the
chemical and physical properties of our clay bodies, a fact well known
to many potters now and in times past. Microorganisms have an inherent
interest in not only living, working, and moving around within their
environment but also in keeping their environment together. Until we
bake them to a crisp we potters can take advantage of microorganisms
and the products they generate by working smart as we compose our clay
bodies. It is my preference to kill microorganisms in my own clay
bodies through several successful non-toxic and non-skin-irritating
methods, but that=3D92s me.
My requirements as a hand-builder will be different from those who
wheel-throw or work with other methods. I like my natural clay bodies
and the results I am producing with them =3D96 but I do work smart to
utilize these materials so that the durable vessels or their shards
will be around a very, very long time. I do make a few additions to
the mixtures from time to time, mostly 2-3% soluble or insoluble
fluxes, sometimes a portion of our local weathered volcanic ash,
sometimes stains (commercial or other clays and oxides), and for the
white version of the natural clay I may add 3% EPK. Of current
interest is my =3D93dry slip=3D94 cosmetic grade talc surface treatment (ne=
w
photos of a talc-ed greenware vessel finished last night are up on
Flickr, http://www.flickr.com/photos/neon-cat/). Photos show a soluble
scum that I removed prior to final surface treatment.
I only have some handwritten notes from last year on L. Barden et al,
=3D93Engineering Geology=3D94, 1973 and don=3D92t recall if it was a book, =
or an
article I read on-line. I sometimes spend an hour or so at our local
used bookstore reading. Things of interest often are remembered when
needed if not specific references. =3D93Engineering Geology=3D94 is also, b=
y
the way, the name of a journal. At any rate you can find adaptations
of Barden=3D92s diagram in newer books and articles, on-line and in
hardcopies off-line.
Ivor, you and I are going to disagree =3D96 let=3D92s agree to that and cal=
l
it a day, OK?
Happy day (or night) to you and all!
Marian,
off to coil another one...
ivor & olive lewis on sat 20 jun 09
Dear Marian,
I thought I was supporting you by following up on your invitation and
commenting about your work.
Perhaps I should have been more specific in my comment of your sketch.
To convey meaningful information your sketch needs two necessary components=
.
These are Scale and Quantity. Were you to convert the composition of your
native clay, which you have obviously analysed, into a circular pie chart
you would have taken the first step. The second step would be to fragment
each segment of your pie chart into components to a scale appropriate to
their true size. The third step would be to draw a space having the same
area as your pie chart and build a random pattern that would assemble these
components, mosaic tile style .
Your result would be a factual simulation of a photomicrograph, which is
what I believe you intended to show me and others.
By the way, you used a word which is unfamiliar. It is "Dissing". Does this
mean "Discussing". If not, perhaps you would explain its meaning. It is
neither in my dictionary nor thesaurus and MS spell check rejected it.
Sincerely,
Ivor Lewis,
Redhill,
South Australia
Des & Jan Howard on sat 20 jun 09
Ivor
Wrong dictionary.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/diss
Des
ivor & olive lewis wrote:
> By the way, you used a word which is unfamiliar. It is "Dissing". Does th=
is
> mean "Discussing". If not, perhaps you would explain its meaning. It is
> neither in my dictionary nor thesaurus and MS spell check rejected it.
--
Des & Jan Howard
Lue Pottery
Lue NSW
Australia
2850
02 6373 6419
www.luepottery.hwy.com.au
-32.656072 149.840624
Neon-Cat on sat 20 jun 09
Dear Ivor,
I am going to imagine a genial Southern ice-tea ceremony with you as
the honored guest...
Marian
On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 1:21 AM, ivor & olive
lewis wrote:
> Dear Marian,
>
> I thought I was supporting you by following up on your invitation and
> commenting about your work.
>
> Perhaps I should have been more specific in my comment of your sketch.
>
> To convey meaningful information your sketch needs two necessary componen=
=3D
ts.
> These are Scale and Quantity. Were you to convert the composition of your
> native clay, which you have obviously analysed, into a circular pie chart
> you would =3DA0have taken the first step. The second step would be to fra=
gm=3D
ent
> each segment of your pie chart into components to a scale appropriate to
> their true size. The third step would be to draw a space having the same
> area as your pie chart and build a random pattern that would assemble the=
=3D
se
> components, mosaic tile style .
>
> Your result would be a factual simulation of a photomicrograph, which is
> what I believe you intended to show =3DA0me and others.
>
> By the way, you used a word which is unfamiliar. It is "Dissing". Does th=
=3D
is
> mean "Discussing". If not, perhaps you would explain its meaning. It is
> neither in my dictionary nor thesaurus and MS spell check rejected it.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Ivor Lewis,
> Redhill,
> South Australia
>
Bonnie Hellman on sat 20 jun 09
I thought dissing was short for "disrespecting". Definitely slang.
Bonnie
Bonnie D. Hellman
Ouray, Colorado 81427
----- Original Message -----
From: "Des & Jan Howard"
To:
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 4:27 AM
Subject: Re: Art and science working together
> Ivor
> Wrong dictionary.
> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/diss
> Des
>
> ivor & olive lewis wrote:
>> By the way, you used a word which is unfamiliar. It is "Dissing". Does
>> this
>> mean "Discussing". If not, perhaps you would explain its meaning. It is
>> neither in my dictionary nor thesaurus and MS spell check rejected it.
>
> --
> Des & Jan Howard
> Lue Pottery
> Lue NSW
> Australia
> 2850
>
> 02 6373 6419
> www.luepottery.hwy.com.au
> -32.656072 149.840624
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