marci and rex on fri 26 jun 09
At 08:30 PM 6/26/2009, John Rodgers wrote:
>I used to buy my paints by the pound - and up to 5 lbs at a time in
>any given color. Royal purple was my bane at the time - $180/lb.
****** YEP ! The purple/ruby/pinks ( the chinapainting equivalent
of the color of alizarin crimson ) all contain actual gold ,
hence the price tag...Most china paint ranges from 2 to
6 bucks a vial ... but some of the intense gold based colors
can run 18-24 bucks for the same small vial ... but
its applied in thin layers so it goes pretty far.
You also said:
> But I had the occasion to buy gold paint once. Genuine 24 carat
> gold dissolved in an organic solvent. I remember when it arrived -
> had a big skull and cross bones on the label with a warning not to
> be anywhere near or breath the fumes when fired. I don't remember
> now what the quantity was - about 8 oz as I recall - and that
> little bottle cost me over $900 - and that was back in the 1980's.
> It was gorgeous when applied - really like gold cladding when fired
> - rather than fired gold china paint.
********** It
was probably Liquid Burnish gold if it was fluid and Roman
gold if it was a stiff paste .... and yeah , the Roman gold,
especially IS actual gold once the binders burn out... You can
also fire gold leaf...It does need a fluxed surface
underneath for it to fuse.. but a fired coat of chinapaint
( red is really nice ) works very well...Then a sticky oil (
like fat oil ) is used to hold it in place till its fired... (
cant fire the decorative leaf tho. It turns black)
> You said: My inspiration was Edward Marshall Boehm and his
> porcelain creations and the china painting done on them. So real.
********GORGEOUS STUFF! ... So delicate and intricate...
Marci Blattenberger Boskie's Mama =3D^..^=3D
http://www.marciblattenberger.com
marci@ppio.com
Porcelain Painters International Online http://www.ppio.com
Tony Ferguson on fri 26 jun 09
James "Da Man" FreeMan
From where do you think I got such=3D0Aideas?=3DA0 8-)=3DA0 There is plenty=
of it=3D
everywhere including my own work.=3DA0 If an existential=3D0Acrisis doesn'=
t ha=3D
ppen regularly with your work, then what are you=3D0Adoing?=3DA0 Re-inventi=
on i=3D
s invention.
Tony Ferguson
Cheers,
Tony Ferguson
Artist/Educator...Clay, Web, Photo, Video, Digital
...where the sky meets the lake...=3D20
http://www.tonyferguson.net
Workshops, Websites, Film making
& Online Digital Photography Training
=3DA0
--- On Fri, 6/26/09, James Freeman wrote:
From: James Freeman
Subject: Re: china painting and japanese overglaze enamel?
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Date: Friday, June 26, 2009, 7:25 PM
Hi, Tony.=3DA0 Good questions all, but aren't we as potters (or ceramists,
or whatever) guilty of very similar crimes and omissions?=3DA0 We were
recently treated to the well stated opinions of Elizabeth and Snail
regarding their thought that there are already enough "so what"
whimsical teapots in the world.=3DA0 One could add, I suppose, majolica
wares with pears or lemons on them.=3DA0 Haven't we seen enough already?
And why are they all colored outside the lines?=3DA0 And why not some
other fruit?=3DA0 Are these our own "dogs and kittens"?=3DA0 How about roug=
hly
formed figurative busts with something on their heads, usually a house
or a fish?=3DA0 One can't open an issue of Ceramics Monthly without seeing
at least one.=3DA0 How about statues of tortured little homunculi?=3DA0 Aga=
in,
not a month goes by without our being treated to at least one more.
How about the same brown wood fired pitcher in every issue, but each
time by a different potter?=3DA0 Or the generic bulbous clay forms,
brightly glazed or painted, and hung in groups in some college
gallery?=3DA0 Or the sculptures made of assembled parts cut from various
kitchy figurines slip cast in commercial molds?=3DA0 Or the plethora of
gaijin teabowls?=3DA0 Or the endless stream of roughly formed vessels and
platters with crude drawings of animals or people carved or painted in
a pseudo-childlike way?=3DA0 Or all of the pouring vessels with grossly
oversized beak-like spouts?=3DA0 Or all of the Steven Hill clone pots
covered in drippy slip slop and ash glaze?=3DA0 Or the walls covered in a
grid of identical white objects slip cast from molds pulled from
common forms?=3DA0 Or the flood of over-embellished and over-decorated
neo-baroque lidded vessels?=3DA0 Or...
Dali said "The first man to compare the cheeks of a young woman to a
rose was obviously a poet; the first to repeat it was possibly an
idiot."=3DA0 We too have more than our share of me-too, seen-it-before,
overdone, derivative, and please-stop-making-more-of-those objects,
and our own de facto journal, Ceramics Monthly leads the charge to
create ever more.=3DA0 Do we really have any room to speak?=3DA0 Rhetorical
questions all.=3DA0 Just something to think about.
...James
James Freeman
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice.=3DA0 I
should not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/clayart/
On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:00 PM, Tony Ferguson wrote:
> I've been following the thread on China Painting and a few thoughts and q=
=3D
uestions about something I know nothing about=3DA0 8-).
>
> Like painting of any kind, there is a range of skill, intent and final ex=
=3D
ecution from craft to fine art--from student to artist and everything in be=
=3D
tween.=3DA0 And within that range there are many approaches, no different t=
ha=3D
n any other art form in my opinion, no different than people developing the=
=3D
ir craft, some progressing, some getting stuck, and some taking the art for=
=3D
m to new levels.
>
> I think the greatest weakness of China painting is the prefab forms that =
=3D
are used.=3DA0 This is not a comment on the artist's ability, it is a comme=
nt=3D
perhaps on the choice of canvas as a means of collaboration and expressing=
=3D
the art as a whole form--http://www.rudyautio.com/ work comes to mind.=3DA=
0 =3D
Could the canvas be the real issue--the fact that the same canvas forms app=
=3D
ear over and over giving us a cliche feeling about China Paiting--or could =
=3D
it be the content--how many dogs or kittens before they become cliche?=3DA0=
O=3D
r, is it how its been painted, in a particular style and the form is of no =
=3D
consequence?=3DA0 I think style, form and content matter--form less perhaps=
i=3D
f the content is dynamic?
>
> I will not debate that China Painting or whatever you want to call it is =
=3D
an art form--it is, no question, an artform--but one can not ignore that pa=
=3D
rt of the form is the canvas and its relationship to whatever painting is g=
=3D
oing on begs the question:=3DA0 what is new here?=3DA0 Is it somehow refere=
ncin=3D
g something familiar and yet expressed in some new dynamic way?=3DA0 Ok, th=
is=3D
person can paint realisim but what is special about how they paint?=3DA0 T=
he=3D
colors they use, the strokes, the blending, where is the emotion, the inte=
=3D
nt, its own dynamic?=3DA0 Does form become a non issue when we are blown aw=
ay=3D
by the style content and Zomething new?
>
> And I've been looking around and the commercial pre-fab forms I believe c=
=3D
an hurt the incredible painting I see going on.=3DA0 I am blown away by the=
p=3D
ainting skill--cuz it wouldn't matter whether these folks are painting on c=
=3D
lay or canvas, many know their craft and the ones doing unique approaches, =
=3D
pushing the envelope are using their mastery of craft to make Art.
>
> Perhaps if the content and style were expressed in new ways, the form wou=
=3D
ld be less important, it would be un-noticeable?
>
> I think if I was a China Painter, I would develop or look for forms to pa=
=3D
int on that the majority of China Painters were not using--something to dis=
=3D
tinguish my painting and its relationship to form and I would most importan=
=3D
tly, attempt to push the realisim or whatever ism you are painting in beyon=
=3D
d what others are doing.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> =3DA0Tony Ferguson
=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A
Des & Jan Howard on sat 27 jun 09
Marci
So what does Greg Daly use then?
I bought a small book of 'gold leaf' to play with.
It fired black, or more accurately like gunmetal.
Des
marci and rex wrote:
> ... You can
> also fire gold leaf...It does need a fluxed surface
> underneath for it to fuse.. but a fired coat of chinapaint
> ( red is really nice ) works very well...Then a sticky oil (
> like fat oil ) is used to hold it in place till its fired... (
> cant fire the decorative leaf tho. It turns black)
--
Des & Jan Howard
Lue Pottery
Lue NSW
Australia
2850
02 6373 6419
www.luepottery.hwy.com.au
-32.656072 149.840624
liz gowen on sat 27 jun 09
I guess this is part of what bothers me. Commercial dinnerware seems to =3D
use
decals etc which I am also guessing is china paint and uses it on food =3D
ware.
What are they doing differently. I know, I want to be able to do it too. =
=3D
I
was inspired a numbert of years ago by a couple articles by Paul Lewing =3D
and
thus went in search of how to do china paints. He had done some =3D
beautihul
tiles for a kitchen backsplash to match a bowl on the counter, if I =3D
remember
right. It just frustrates me to not be able to use the china paint on =3D
food
ware since that is most of what I make at present. I do have a very nice
large carved vase I am thinking about finishing in china paint. Need to =3D
try
something smaller first since I have been holding this one back from =3D
being
finished for a number of years. Liz Gowen
Maybe someone who knows about the commercial dinnerware industry
can address the issue since the commercial factories use =3D
chinapaints
for the decals for commercial dinnerware.
Marci=3D20
Lee Love on sat 27 jun 09
On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 9:31 AM, liz gowen wrote:
> right. It just frustrates me to not be able to use the china paint on foo=
d
> ware since that is most of what I make at present. I do have a very nice
> large carved vase I am thinking about finishing in china paint. Need to t=
ry
> something smaller first since I have been holding this one back from bein=
g
> finished for a number of years. Liz Gowen
Is there any way to used the "food safe" enamels in the
china technique? John Baymore once told me he had long conversations
with the tech people at the commercial enamels company and was able to
figure out which were the safest.
It can be done safely, but I simply don't want lead in my studio.
--
Lee Love, Minneapolis
"The tea ceremony bowl is the ceramic equivalent of a sonnet: a
small-scale, seemingly constricted form that challenges the artist to
go beyond mere technical virtuosity and find an approach that both
satisfies and transcends the conventions." -- Rob Sliberman
full essay: http://togeika.multiply.com/journal/item/273/
marci and rex on sat 27 jun 09
At 07:35 AM 6/27/2009, Des & Jan Howard wrote:
>Marci
>So what does Greg Daly use then?
>I bought a small book of 'gold leaf' to play with.
>It fired black, or more accurately like gunmetal.
>Des
Hi Des,
First , about the gold leaf...are you sure it was actually
gold leaf and not decorative metal leaf which looks
like gold leaf but is colored aluminum?
Real gold leaf is actual gold worked down to an extremely
thin layer ... and it will fire gold. It just wont fuse to a
glaze on its own because there is no flux in it.
Actually , I might need to backtrack on that.. It MIGHT stick to
a softer glaze ...( cone 6 or cooler ) . I ve only seen it done
on commercial porcelain which is clear glaze fired pretty hot
( ^10 at least ) ...
Went to Greg Daly's website ... GORGEOUS STUFF! .. It can
be hard to tell for sure from pictures . Lusters are difficult
to capture accurately in photographs but what I suspected
is what he confirms on his website when he says:"This Gallery
shows examples of surface development over 25 years using gold,
silver leaf fired onto the surface. The lustres are resin lustres
made from pine resin with gold chloride, bismuth nitrate, cobalt
nitrate, zinc acetate fired to 740c."
The resin luster he talks about is the Liquid Bright gold
. I dont know whether he gets his commercially or makes it... He
also does use gold and silver leaf... and colored lusters..
( he may also make his own colored lusters ... I dont
know whether he uses commercial lusters and gold or not) . A lot
of this is layer upon layer and/or etched surfaces where
you remove the shine from the glaze layer . and some of
it is color lusters or mother of pearl luster over fired gold (
both the liquid bright and leaf) . That gives spectacular color effe=
cts.
Marci Blattenberger Boskie's Mama =3D^..^=3D
http://www.marciblattenberger.com
marci@ppio.com
Porcelain Painters International Online http://www.ppio.com
marci and rex on sat 27 jun 09
At 09:31 AM 6/27/2009, liz gowen wrote:
>I guess this is part of what bothers me. Commercial dinnerware seems to us=
e
>decals etc which I am also guessing is china paint and uses it on food war=
e.
>What are they doing differently.
I personally havent been able to find much information on that ...
I dont know if it has to do with the
industry's ability to tightly control their firing process .
Some of it is that decorating pieces for dinnerware usually
means that the design is contained to the outside rim of
a plate.. or the outside edge of a bowl or, on a mug
or cup, below the line where your lip would touch ... and no
paint on the inside of those containers...and not underfiring the pa=
int.
It was common for chinapainters ( Im talking
US hobby chinapainters) to fire only to 018-ish which ,
on most harder commercial porcelain is underfired. In
the last 10-15 years, its become more the norm to fire hotter
( 015 range with some going even up to 011 )
I know Paul did some testing for his
book but without pulling the book out, my memory seems
to recollect that he deliberately used a massive amount
of paint for the test piece... and
I always wondered what the results would be on a properly
fired piece with a normal amount of paint on it.. Guess I
need to stop wondering and send something out to
be tested... Will do that ...
Marci
Paul Lewing on sat 27 jun 09
On Jun 27, 2009, at 12:07 PM, marci and rex wrote:
At 09:31 AM 6/27/2009, liz gowen wrote:
> I guess this is part of what bothers me. Commercial dinnerware seems
> to use
> decals etc which I am also guessing is china paint and uses it on
> food ware.
> What are they doing differently.
I had some custom decals made by easyceramicdecals.com last year.
Andy had the option of food safe or not. The food safe ones had a
layer of lead free frit printed over the color. With the non food
safe ones, you could just cut out a swatch of the decal paper that had
the image on it, plop it on the piece and fire it. Everyplace that
had no printed image was the same white color as the piece. But on
the food safe ones, which I got, you had to trim the decal to the edge
of the image, because everyplace that had no color was a slightly
bluish tint from the frit layer. They may be doing this and just not
leaving any places where there are blank spots.
It's also possible to silkscreen any ceramic material, so you could
make decals at any temperature. You could fire your piece to cone 10,
then refire to cone 10 with a decal printed in cone 10 colors only.
Paul Lewing
www.paullewingtile.com
www.paullewingart.com
Snail Scott on mon 29 jun 09
On Jun 27, 2009, at 7:35 AM, Des & Jan Howard wrote:
> ...I bought a small book of 'gold leaf' to play with.
> It fired black, or more accurately like gunmetal...
The 'gold leaf' you get at most hobby and art
supply stores contains no gold at all; it's just
a yellowish base metal alloy. 'Real' gold leaf,
available from better supply stores mainly
in larger cities or else by mail, varies in karat
value just as other gold alloys do, from 10k
(hardly counts as gold) all the way up to 24k.
You can also buy it in different thicknesses.
When I did calligraphy, I would spring for the
24k German 'double' leaf just for the special
projects. The more gold, the higher the price,
but the better the result, IF the result requires
gold. As with other gold, true gold leaf prices
fluctuate based on the market value.
I've noticed that since most people (even
many jewelers) have never seen 24k gold,
it is often mistaken for fake, while the more
familiar lower-karat stuff and its imitators
are considered more 'real-looking'! So, in
the wrong context, using the 'good stuff'
may backfire.
Ask yourself if you really need (or want) real
gold. If you do, be prepared to pay. On the
bright side, a little goes a long way.
-Snail
marci and rex on mon 29 jun 09
At 05:54 PM 6/29/2009, Des & Jan Howard wrote:
>Snail
>I actually bought the book of leaf to use in glass
>fusing & thought I'd 'do a Daly' on a couple of dark
>copper red glazed pots. The results were not what I
>expected, interesting. Both have sold.
>Des
That might be a different ballgame, Des. Ill have to find
out for sure, but if my memory serves me, when you do glass inclusi=
ons
you can use metals other than just real gold.. I know you
can use copper ... not sure about aluminum..... So , if you got
it from a fuser, it might work as an inclusion in glass
if it was metal leaf and not actual gold leaf ...
but would fire black on top of a glaze
where real gold leaf would fire gold.
Marci Blattenberger Boskie's Mama =3D^..^=3D
http://www.marciblattenberger.com
marci@ppio.com
Porcelain Painters International Online http://www.ppio.com
Des & Jan Howard on tue 30 jun 09
Snail
I actually bought the book of leaf to use in glass
fusing & thought I'd 'do a Daly' on a couple of dark
copper red glazed pots. The results were not what I
expected, interesting. Both have sold.
Des
Snail Scott wrote:
> Ask yourself if you really need (or want) real
> gold. If you do, be prepared to pay. On the
> bright side, a little goes a long way.
--
Des & Jan Howard
Lue Pottery
Lue NSW
Australia
2850
02 6373 6419
www.luepottery.hwy.com.au
-32.656072 149.840624
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