mel jacobson on sun 13 sep 09
i am with bill, all tools are dangerous.
i use a chain saw.
it is dangerous.
i use it in a safe way.
i shoot guns.
they are very dangerous.
i use them in a safe way, and teach others
how to be safe.
i have a walker pug mill. i have no intention
of putting my hands inside.
just don't.
why would anyone put there hand into a spinning
blade? usually because they do something stupid.
so, now we have to protect all stupid people and make
our tools beyond safe. i love the hopper size of my walker.
i love the way it mixes and pugs clay. it is a wonderful
potters machine. but, we cannot have a machine like that...
because stupid people must not have a useful, dangerous machine.
the most dangerous thing in a ceramics studio is dust.
glaze dust. i see people doing stupid things in dust filled
spaces, and never give a damn.
i worry far more about dust than thinking of my
hands in my pug mill.
i was taught when i was 15 how to talk to my hands.
`hi mr. right hand, don't touch that blade, hi mr. left hand
where are you going?` don't be dumb with tools mr. hands.`
hot coffee in your crotch while driving is stupid.
but, now the way of the world is to have someone else
be responsible for your health and safety.
take charge of you, and use tools in a safe and intended way.
if you spill hot coffee while driving...you deserve scalded genitals.
did you hear? there are hard things inside of peaches. they can
break your teeth...never eat a real peach, they can hurt you.
man, i only eat canned peaches. phew, that makes me safe.
and, did you hear, welding torches are hot...never use one, you
can be burned with a welding torch. ???
and, can you believe, that phil guy/bison tools, uses old time machines.
that is dangerous...i would never visit him, or watch him work with
old machines...that must be really dangerous.
my neighbor has a dog that bites...i told her `if the dogs ever bites
me, i will kill it, right now, kill it...do you understand?` she does.
keep that gd dog in its own yard, or else. that dog is dangerous, so
i will stay away, or else kill the sob. she thinks her dog is cute. stupi=
d.
an entire generation is growing up without ever having learned about, or
touched tools, but they drive a 25,000 dollar car like a maniac. no respec=
t
at all for that big, fast, dangerous tool.
mel
from: minnetonka, mn
website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
clayart link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
new book: http://www.21stcenturykilns.com
KATHI LESUEUR on mon 14 sep 09
On Sep 14, 2009, at 7:52 PM, Sherron & Jim Bowen wrote:
> In my opinion it is the responsibility of the retailer to not
> supply the
> customer with a product that is inherently dangerous if used in the
> normal
> manner. McDonalds and McDonalds management knew they were serving a
> dangerous cup of coffee. The consume could not have known that. In the
> normal course of using a cup of coffee it gets spilt. It should not
> scald
> you to the point of needing extensive reconstructive surgery.
> Apparently the
> courts agreed.
> JB
>
There is an optimum temperature to brew coffee. McDonalds used to
brew at that temperature. Now, they don't. And, their coffee isn't as
good. Cracker Barrel no longer brews hot coffee. It's not as good. If
you spill just brewed coffee on yourself from a Mr. Coffee maker
you'll scald yourself. If you spill just brewed coffee from a
commercial Bunn coffee maker you'll scald yourself. I've burned
myself enough times as a waitress to know this. The only reason I
didn't have damage was that I could get it off quickly and put my
hand under cold water. She couldn't do that because she was driving.
They didn't supply an inherently dangerous product, they just didn't
count on the stupidity of the consumer. Drinking coffee while driving
is stupid. I don't care how many people do it. If you have to stop
fast you'll spill it. If you reach for it and look away from the road
for just the wrong instant you'll cause an accident. That same court
would probably find in favor of the consumer who burns their mouth on
a hot apple pie straight from the fryer. Just because a court ruled
one way doesn't mean they are right. After all, our esteemed Supreme
court ruled in Walmart's favor after they sent samples of a unique
line of children's wear by a small designer to be copied and produced
for them in China. The court ruled against the small designer in
favor of Walmart saying it was in the best interest of the consumer.
If you don't believe it I have a copy of the ruling for you.
Jeff Gieringer on tue 15 sep 09
> Every year, Michigan Lawsuit Abuse Watch runs a contest for the
> strangest warning labels. This year's winner was a label on a skid
> loader warning the user to "avoid death". My favorite is a label on a
> letter opener imploring the user to wear safety goggles. They also
> have a book out called "Remove Child Before Folding". The sad part is
> that every one of these bizarre labels is the result of a frivolous
> lawsuit. It seems that being stupid and getting a lawyer is the
> equivalent of winning the lottery. Here is a link to M-LAW's website
> where you can see the labels: http://www.mlaw.org/wwl/index.html
What a bunch of dumbasses there must be for some of these labels to exist! =
I
really like the one about the camp toilet not being used on a moving
vehicle. One label that I may disagree with is the one on a bag of livestoc=
k
castration rings that warns, "For animal use only." Maybe if we DID use
them on humans we could eliminate some of these idiots creating today's
lawsuit happy atmosphere. A cup of coffee being hot?........get outta here=
,
when did they start that crap?! It's truly sad. I remember in the 60's th=
e
box fans didn't have warnings telling you not to stick your hand in them, i=
t
was just common sense and just in case I was lacking in that dept. as a
child my mother told me not to do it. We live in a society where these
idiots want everyone else to think for them and if you fail to do so, you
will be sued. Again, truly sad.
Jeff Gieringer
Berea, Kentucky
steve graber on tue 15 sep 09
i used to design lighting products and still have several via an old compan=
=3D
y in home depot isles.=3DA0 =3D0A=3D0Athe joke was once you leave a sample =
with t=3D
he corporate buyer for that store, or the other big box stores, the product=
=3D
sample is in china being copied before you=3DA0even get home.=3D0A=3D0Ait'=
s a sh=3D
ame that such blatant copying of designs can happen.=3DA0 but it's all abou=
t =3D
the=3DA0dollar...=3DA0 =3D0A=3D0Anow, copy a Disney product and look out!=
=3DA0 =3D0A=3D0A=3D
when i review the steve tool product for consumer release, checking with my=
=3D
lawyer (also a potter) we discussed "is there an instruction guideline for=
=3D
safety declarations? (font size, check list of areas, etc)"=3DA0=3DA0 turn=
s ou=3D
t, there isn't.=3DA0 so strive as you will to inform a consumer, you really=
h=3D
ave no idea if you have presented everything clear enough to not get into t=
=3D
rouble.=3DA0 =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3DA0Steve Graber, Graber's Pottery, Inc=3D0ACl=
aremont, Cal=3D
ifornia USA=3D0AThe Steve Tool - for awesum texture on pots! =3D0Awww.grabe=
rspo=3D
ttery.com steve@graberspottery.com =3D0A=3D0A=3D0AOn Laguna Clay's website=
=3D0Ahttp=3D
://www.lagunaclay.com/blogs/ =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A_____________________=
__________=3D
_=3D0AFrom: KATHI LESUEUR =3D0ATo: Clayart@LSV.C=
ERAM=3D
ICS.ORG=3D0ASent: Monday, September 14, 2009 8:07:39 PM=3D0ASubject: Re: da=
nger=3D
ous pugmills=3D0A=3D0AOn Sep 14, 2009, at 7:52 PM, Sherron & Jim Bowen wrot=
e:=3D
=3D0A=3D0A=3DA0After all, our esteemed Supreme=3D0Acourt ruled in Walmart's=
favor a=3D
fter they sent samples of a unique=3D0Aline of children's wear by a small d=
es=3D
igner to be copied and produced=3D0Afor them in China. The court ruled agai=
ns=3D
t the small designer in=3D0Afavor of Walmart saying it was in the best inte=
re=3D
st of the consumer.=3D0AIf you don't believe it I have a copy of the ruling=
f=3D
or you.=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A
Sherron & Jim Bowen on tue 15 sep 09
Are you taking into account that fast food chains serve their coffee in
flimsy containers with lids notorious for popping off due to the
inexperienced or rushed servers not attaching them properly? Fast food
chains expect that their products will be consumed by drivers in moving
vehicles. We have had lids pop off and spill Starbucks coffee all over us
while sitting in Starbucks. Yet no one was injured, only embarrassed. Fast
food chains expect that their products will be consumed by drivers in movin=
g
vehicles.
JB
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "KATHI LESUEUR"
To:
Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 9:07 PM
Subject: Re: dangerous pugmills
Steve Slatin on tue 15 sep 09
Kathi --
You are both right and wrong about the coffee issue. Coffee does have an '=
ideal' temperature for efficient production. It's about 185 F. You can ma=
ke more liquid coffee for less input cost at that temperature.
The commercial brewers (like those excellent Bunn's you refer to) used to c=
ome with the recommendation that the user transfer the coffee from the brew=
ing carafe to a serving carafe and let it cool to coffee drinking temp befo=
re serving. If you use the same quantity of grounds and a lower brewing te=
mp, you get weak, slightly bitter coffee. The solution is to either add a =
cooling stage to the process, or to use more ground coffee.
On the lawsuit (Liebeck v. McDonalds) McDonalds looks far worse. The summa=
ry "some dummy was driving and spilled her coffee and sued" is basically in=
correct. Liebeck was the passenger, she was wearing a tracksuit that absor=
bed the scalding coffee, she had 3rd degree burns over 6 percent of her bod=
y.
Could McDonalds have anticipated the burns? Yes! They'd had 700 prior cas=
es. Had they considered the risk? Yes! They'd discussed it at the highes=
t corporate levels. Did they take the risk on knowingly, and were they try=
ing to make a buck out of some clients' burns? Yes, they decided to take t=
he risk of a lawsuit over the cost of using more ground coffee, or adding a=
step to the coffee production process.
And as for Liebeck, was she trying to 'cash in' on her wounds? No! She of=
fered to settle for $20,000, with medical costs of $11,000. If she'd gotte=
n the award, her lawyer would have taken quite a bit and she would have onl=
y gotten medical expenses paid. But McDonalds countered with an (insulting=
) $800 offer.
Coffee should not be served at over 140 F. It's hot, and drinkable in the =
tiniest sips at that temp. at 180 F it'll scald anyone's tounge. And McDo=
nalds hardly warned its clients "Buy our fast food! You can't consume it r=
ight away!" In sum, McDonalds produced a product with a hazard, didn't war=
n the consumer, did it to maximize profits, didn't take resonable steps to =
ameliorate the hazard, and arrogantly refused reasonable settlement offers.
Big corporations sometimes do this. That's why punative damages are permit=
ted in lawsuits.
These being the facts, why is the case always expressed as "the dumb woman =
who didn't know how to drink coffee?" I surmise there are two reasons -- (=
1), it's a 'better story' that way than with all the facts intact; and, (2)=
, there are economic interests that want to have the public conclude that a=
ll lawsuits are frivolous lawsuits. (Most of the statistics presented on t=
he cost of 'frivolous lawsuits' include the costs of all lawsuits, presumin=
g that there are *no* legitimate lawsuits.) These interests are cozy with =
the press, congress, and know how to make their case.
Sorry for the rant --
Steve Slatin
Adron Lilly on tue 15 sep 09
Here is the truth in the "hot coffee - McDonalds" suit.
http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm
SHE WAS A PASSENGER
Stella Liebeck of Albuquerque, New Mexico, was in the passenger seat
of her grandson's car when she was severely burned by McDonalds'
coffee in February 1992. Liebeck, 79 at the time, ordered coffee that
was served in a styrofoam cup at the drivethrough window of a local
McDonalds.
After receiving the order, the grandson pulled his car forward and
stopped momentarily so that Liebeck could add cream and sugar to her
coffee. (Critics of civil justice, who have pounced on this case,
often charge that Liebeck was driving the car or that the vehicle was
in motion when she spilled the coffee; neither is true.) Liebeck
placed the cup between her knees and attempted to remove the plastic
lid from the cup. As she removed the lid, the entire contents of the
cup spilled into her lap.
The sweatpants Liebeck was wearing absorbed the coffee and held it
next to her skin. A vascular surgeon determined that Liebeck suffered
full thickness burns (or third-degree burns) over 6 percent of her
body, including her inner thighs, perineum, buttocks, and genital and
groin areas. She was hospitalized for eight days, during which time
she underwent skin grafting. Liebeck, who also underwent debridement
treatments, sought to settle her claim for $20,000, but McDonalds
refused. During discovery, McDonalds produced documents showing more
than 700 claims by people burned by its coffee between 1982 and 1992.
Some claims involved third-degree burns substantially similar to
Liebecks. This history documented McDonalds' knowledge about the
extent and nature of this hazard.=3D20
Adron
On Sun, 13 Sep 2009 07:11:48 -0500, you wrote:
>i am with bill, all tools are dangerous.
>i use a chain saw.
>it is dangerous.
>i use it in a safe way.
>i shoot guns.
>they are very dangerous.
>i use them in a safe way, and teach others
>how to be safe.
>
>i have a walker pug mill. i have no intention
>of putting my hands inside.
>just don't.
>why would anyone put there hand into a spinning
>blade? usually because they do something stupid.
>so, now we have to protect all stupid people and make
>our tools beyond safe. i love the hopper size of my walker.
>i love the way it mixes and pugs clay. it is a wonderful
>potters machine. but, we cannot have a machine like that...
>because stupid people must not have a useful, dangerous machine.
>
>the most dangerous thing in a ceramics studio is dust.
>glaze dust. i see people doing stupid things in dust filled
>spaces, and never give a damn.
>
>i worry far more about dust than thinking of my
>hands in my pug mill.
>
>i was taught when i was 15 how to talk to my hands.
>
>`hi mr. right hand, don't touch that blade, hi mr. left hand
>where are you going?` don't be dumb with tools mr. hands.`
>
>hot coffee in your crotch while driving is stupid.
>but, now the way of the world is to have someone else
>be responsible for your health and safety.
>take charge of you, and use tools in a safe and intended way.
>if you spill hot coffee while driving...you deserve scalded genitals.
>
>did you hear? there are hard things inside of peaches. they can
>break your teeth...never eat a real peach, they can hurt you.
>man, i only eat canned peaches. phew, that makes me safe.
>and, did you hear, welding torches are hot...never use one, you
>can be burned with a welding torch. ???
>
>and, can you believe, that phil guy/bison tools, uses old time machines.
>that is dangerous...i would never visit him, or watch him work with
>old machines...that must be really dangerous.
>
>my neighbor has a dog that bites...i told her `if the dogs ever bites
>me, i will kill it, right now, kill it...do you understand?` she does.
>keep that gd dog in its own yard, or else. that dog is dangerous, so
>i will stay away, or else kill the sob. she thinks her dog is cute. =3D
stupid.
>an entire generation is growing up without ever having learned about, or
>touched tools, but they drive a 25,000 dollar car like a maniac. no =3D
respect
>at all for that big, fast, dangerous tool.
>mel
>
>
>
>from: minnetonka, mn
>website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
> clayart link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
>new book: http://www.21stcenturykilns.com
May Luk on tue 15 sep 09
Can we go back to the dangerous pugmil thread. "-)
What to do if your studio mates have different views on studio dust and
health and safety? Like I view wet-mopping as health and safety measurement
and neighborly behavior and they view mopping as house-cleaning choirs or
"whatever adults don't do"?
I have checked with my uncle who works for a big international
chemistry company with the health and regulation dept and he said there's
no regulations to protect me in small studio.
It really upsets me whenever I read about dust on Clayart and I feel
powerless and frustrated. I like my studio mates and we get on like a house
on fire. But when it comes to house-keeping and cleaniness, we are not on
the same page. (And it is quite common because all my other potter friends
feel the same way, such is the pain and pleasure of sharing space)
Best wishes
May "just tired and ranting" Luk
On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 12:56 PM, Adron Lilly wrote:
> Here is the truth in the "hot coffee - McDonalds" suit.
>
> http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm
>
> SHE WAS A PASSENGER
>
> Stella Liebeck of Albuquerque, New Mexico, was in the passenger seat
> of her grandson's car when she was severely burned by McDonalds'
> coffee in February 1992. Liebeck, 79 at the time, ordered coffee that
> was served in a styrofoam cup at the drivethrough window of a local
> McDonalds.
>
>
--
http://twitter.com/MayLuk
http://www.flickr.com/groups/handmade_mugs/
James Freeman on tue 15 sep 09
On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Steve Slatin wro=
te:
>
> These being the facts, why is the case always expressed as "the dumb woma=
n who didn't know how to drink coffee?"
Steve...
It is because she decided to hold a flimsy cup of scalding hot liquid
between her legs in a moving vehicle. I agree with everything you
said about McDonalds, but none of that absolves the woman of gross
stupidity.
The great philosopher Robert Heinlein said, via Lazarus Long,
"Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, or by
legislation. Stupidity is not a sin; the victim can't help being
stupid. But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the
sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out
automatically and without pity."
All the best.
...James
James Freeman
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice. I
should not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/clayart/
John Rodgers on tue 15 sep 09
I have had my art work copied in Taiwan and then distributed back here
in the states. I thought I would go after the people involved, but I
very quickly learned about the golden rule - he who has the gold -
rules. I bit my tongue and got on with my work.
I came up with a ceramic piece I wanted to push through the big box
stores - so I called "SCORE" (SBA connected) and talked with them. I was
warned off. I was told what you said - once in the hands of the
corporate folks - it will be to china - copied - and back - before I
can drive home.
Copy Disney? Again - the golden rule - he who has the gold - rules -
and believe me, Disney has the gold.
You can get into major trouble with this on many levels. Like - don't
ever make anything bearing a major University logo or mark. That's big
money, and if you infringe - they will be all over you like flies on
dung!! Oh, you might do a one off or so, but beyond that - you have to
buy a license from the University, and depending on what it is - they
cost big time - and they want a royalty on top of that.
NASCAR is the same way. They are going to get their cut.
Big money is going to get their cut - always.
Good example is the current health care debate. A battle royal -
tremendous opposition in some camps - a huge cloud of obfuscation was
blown up until corporate America saw it would get it's cut. but as soon
as the white house made a few concessions - both up front and behind the
scenes - that enabled insurance companies and big pharma to have their
hands in the pie - the process lurched forward and some progress has
been made. But it was all about profits for big corporate America. Once
again - the golden rule. This kind of stuff didn't happen just in the
last couple of days - it's been going on like this since this country
was founded. So there is nothing new about it. That's just the way it is.
As you said - it's all about the dollar. And the little guy is not going
to get a chance to play in the park with the big guys.
So, what to do? Answer? the best you can. Do the best that you can do
personally, that you can manage personally. Beyond that - unless you
are really lucky - there's not much else. But be happy in the process.
If you have food to eat, a roof over head, and no one is sick or injured
- you have the world in your hands. As Mel once said "Make good pots".
They will move. People like pots.
Regards,
John Rodgers
steve graber wrote:
> i used to design lighting products and still have several via an old comp=
any in home depot isles.
>
> the joke was once you leave a sample with the corporate buyer for that st=
ore, or the other big box stores, the product sample is in china being copi=
ed before you even get home.
>
> it's a shame that such blatant copying of designs can happen. but it's a=
ll about the dollar...
>
> now, copy a Disney product and look out!
>
> when i review the steve tool product for consumer release, checking with =
my lawyer (also a potter) we discussed "is there an instruction guideline f=
or safety declarations? (font size, check list of areas, etc)" turns out,=
there isn't. so strive as you will to inform a consumer, you really have =
no idea if you have presented everything clear enough to not get into troub=
le.
>
>
> Steve Graber, Graber's Pottery, Inc
> Claremont, California USA
> The Steve Tool - for awesum texture on pots!
> www.graberspottery.com steve@graberspottery.com
>
>
> On Laguna Clay's website
> http://www.lagunaclay.com/blogs/
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: KATHI LESUEUR
> To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 8:07:39 PM
> Subject: Re: dangerous pugmills
>
> On Sep 14, 2009, at 7:52 PM, Sherron & Jim Bowen wrote:
>
> After all, our esteemed Supreme
> court ruled in Walmart's favor after they sent samples of a unique
> line of children's wear by a small designer to be copied and produced
> for them in China. The court ruled against the small designer in
> favor of Walmart saying it was in the best interest of the consumer.
> If you don't believe it I have a copy of the ruling for you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
John Rodgers on tue 15 sep 09
Steve, good rant!
One comment - at a temperature of 150 F - you can cook fish. That's
where I cook salmon. If you can cook fish at that temperature, you sure
as heck don't want anything that hot or hotter in your lap or anyone
elses lap.
Regards,
John Rodgers
Chelsea, AL
Steve Slatin wrote:
> Kathi --
>
> You are both right and wrong about the coffee issue. Coffee does have an=
'ideal' temperature for efficient production. It's about 185 F. You can =
make more liquid coffee for less input cost at that temperature.
>
> The commercial brewers (like those excellent Bunn's you refer to) used to=
come with the recommendation that the user transfer the coffee from the br=
ewing carafe to a serving carafe and let it cool to coffee drinking temp be=
fore serving. If you use the same quantity of grounds and a lower brewing =
temp, you get weak, slightly bitter coffee. The solution is to either add =
a cooling stage to the process, or to use more ground coffee.
>
> On the lawsuit (Liebeck v. McDonalds) McDonalds looks far worse. The sum=
mary "some dummy was driving and spilled her coffee and sued" is basically =
incorrect. Liebeck was the passenger, she was wearing a tracksuit that abs=
orbed the scalding coffee, she had 3rd degree burns over 6 percent of her b=
ody.
>
> Could McDonalds have anticipated the burns? Yes! They'd had 700 prior c=
ases. Had they considered the risk? Yes! They'd discussed it at the high=
est corporate levels. Did they take the risk on knowingly, and were they t=
rying to make a buck out of some clients' burns? Yes, they decided to take=
the risk of a lawsuit over the cost of using more ground coffee, or adding=
a step to the coffee production process.
>
> And as for Liebeck, was she trying to 'cash in' on her wounds? No! She =
offered to settle for $20,000, with medical costs of $11,000. If she'd got=
ten the award, her lawyer would have taken quite a bit and she would have o=
nly gotten medical expenses paid. But McDonalds countered with an (insulti=
ng) $800 offer.
>
> Coffee should not be served at over 140 F. It's hot, and drinkable in th=
e tiniest sips at that temp. at 180 F it'll scald anyone's tounge. And Mc=
Donalds hardly warned its clients "Buy our fast food! You can't consume it=
right away!" In sum, McDonalds produced a product with a hazard, didn't w=
arn the consumer, did it to maximize profits, didn't take resonable steps t=
o ameliorate the hazard, and arrogantly refused reasonable settlement offer=
s.
>
> Big corporations sometimes do this. That's why punative damages are perm=
itted in lawsuits.
>
> These being the facts, why is the case always expressed as "the dumb woma=
n who didn't know how to drink coffee?" I surmise there are two reasons --=
(1), it's a 'better story' that way than with all the facts intact; and, (=
2), there are economic interests that want to have the public conclude that=
all lawsuits are frivolous lawsuits. (Most of the statistics presented on=
the cost of 'frivolous lawsuits' include the costs of all lawsuits, presum=
ing that there are *no* legitimate lawsuits.) These interests are cozy wit=
h the press, congress, and know how to make their case.
>
> Sorry for the rant --
>
> Steve Slatin
>
>
>
marci and rex on tue 15 sep 09
At 01:24 PM 9/15/2009, John Rodgers wrote:
>I have had my art work copied in Taiwan and then distributed back here
>in the states. I thought I would go after the people involved, but I
>very quickly learned about the golden rule - he who has the gold -
>rules. I bit my tongue and got on with my work.
Yep! Sadly true.. My cousin Kathy was co- founder of Hue
Hosiery ( She and her business partner Sandy started the whole
thing with color for the leg .. and also cotton-lycra blends )
... Anyway , point is that as soon as they would show
their latest collection ,within days , there were cheap knock
offs on the market... I asked her once if they could copyright
their designs or do something to protect them.. and she said
not really . The only thing you can do is be one step ahead of the gam=
e.
Marci
John Britt on tue 15 sep 09
Steve,
Nice post. It is a shame that you had to introduce "facts" into the situa=
=3D
tion.=3D20
That just confuses those with simple blanket generalizations designed to =
=3D
elicit=3D20
emotional responses. Unfortunately they will "forget" the complicated fac=
=3D
ts=3D20
asap so that they can get back to their easy generalizations, but it is n=
=3D
ice of=3D20
you to point them out.
Keep it real baby!
John Britt
www.johnbrittpottery.com
If you like quality posts - check out todays!!!- http://ncclayclub.blogsp=
=3D
ot.com
Steve Slatin on tue 15 sep 09
James -- A fair response, but I still believe of=3D20
the sum total of moronism displayed, that shown
by McD's was much greater. After all, they sell
it at a drive-through window -- where is she
expected to drink it, if not in a car?
And where should it be held to be opened? It's
no doubt steadier between the legs than 'freehand'
in the air, and cupholders aren't at the right
level to adapt to opening, etc.
I personally believe that the producer has a
greater responsibility to work out the details=3D20
of use than the consumer. That's why I test
mug shapes to make sure that they don't spill
a lot, and make sure that there aren't any=3D20
glass-knife-edge sharp points on a piece=3D20
designed to be held. It's a minimal level
of respect for my client, and McD's didn't=3D20
show it ...
Best -- Steve Slatin=3D20
--- On Tue, 9/15/09, James Freeman wrote:
> Steve Slatin
> wrote:
> >
> > These being the facts, why is the case always
> expressed as "the dumb woman who didn't know how to drink
> coffee?"
>=3D20
>=3D20
> Steve...
>=3D20
> It is because she decided to hold a flimsy cup of scalding
> hot liquid
> between her legs in a moving vehicle.=3DA0 I agree with
> everything you
> said about McDonalds, but none of that absolves the woman
> of gross
> stupidity.
>=3D20
=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A
Cindy Gatto on tue 15 sep 09
Hi May,
Long time no speaks! So First the formalities How are you? I'm good I saw y=
our work on the NJ potters guild website it is absolutely beautiful. I don'=
t know where this dangerous pugmill thread started but I read your question=
about studio mates, dust and cleaning and I figured I'd drop? a line with =
my 2 cents. I know your are going to get alot of 2 cents but here's my take=
I am the same as you I want a clean, organized studio. The problem is that=
others don't see it my way and I can stand on my head and scream till I'm =
blue in the face but they are not going to clean as well or as much as I wa=
nt. I have finally after ten years figured out what to do Clean it my self!=
I know, I know it sucks But if you want something done and someone won't d=
o it, you basically have two choices. Either continue to drive yourself nut=
s or accept the fact that they are not going to do it your way. Once you co=
me to that fork in the road
you have another two choices. Either you live with their filth and mess or =
you do it yourself and have a space that meets your standards of cleanlines=
s and organization.?
And again I know it stinks to have to be the one cleaning up after other pe=
ople but once you make your peace with that it's all down hill. The only ot=
her suggestion I think anyone could make is if it really boils down to a " =
your health issue" you could find another studio where there were like mind=
ed people.
Cindy Gatto
The Mudpit
www.mudpitnyc.com
-----Original Message-----
From: May Luk
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Sent: Tue, Sep 15, 2009 1:57 pm
Subject: Re: dangerous pugmills
Can we go back to the dangerous pugmil thread. "-)
What to do if your studio mates have different views on studio dust and
health and safety? Like I view wet-mopping as health and safety measurement
and neighborly behavior and they view mopping as house-cleaning choirs or
"whatever adults don't do"?
I have checked with my uncle who works for a big international
chemistry company with the health and regulation dept and he said there's
no regulations to protect me in small studio.
It really upsets me whenever I read about dust on Clayart and I feel
powerless and frustrated. I like my studio mates and we get on like a house
on fire. But when it comes to house-keeping and cleaniness, we are not on
the same page. (And it is quite common because all my other potter friends
feel the same way, such is the pain and pleasure of sharing space)
Best wishes
May "just tired and ranting" Luk
Phoenix Rising Farm on tue 15 sep 09
Never mind John...
I know people that would pay good money to have a hot fish
wiggling in their lap...
oh, never mind...you don't want to know.
ROFL
Wayne Seidl
John Rodgers wrote:
> Steve, good rant!
>
> One comment - at a temperature of 150 F - you can cook fish. That's
> where I cook salmon. If you can cook fish at that temperature, you sure
> as heck don't want anything that hot or hotter in your lap or anyone
> elses lap.
>
> Regards,
>
> John Rodgers
> Chelsea, AL
>>
>
Earl Krueger on wed 16 sep 09
On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 9:11 AM, Steve Slatin wrote=
:
>
> On the lawsuit (Liebeck v. McDonalds)
( Steve, long long time no talk... But now it's my turn to rant. )
Irrespective of whether or not one considers the decision in this case just
or unjust this singular event has had a profound negative effect on our
society.
Everyone knows about the "McDonalds lawsuit". It has become the archetype
of the successful plaintif's lawsuit. The Golden Fleece for which certain
lawyers and the unscrupulous search. The Powerball of the legal system.
But we need to ask just how much this has cost each of us. Directly in
increased liability insurance premiums ( ever wonder why they call
them *premiums?
)* and indirectly in increased prices we pay to others for products and
services so that they in turn can pay for insurance.
And what's more disturbing are the intangible costs. To get a sense of thi=
s
all one has to do is read Clayart and notice how many times fear of
litigation is mentioned. Many people who might start a business in order
to make their livelihood, and perhaps create jobs for others as well, are
afraid to take the risk or perhaps they can't build a good business case du=
e
to the high cost of insurance ( think light aircraft industry ).
We used to use the phrase "fear of God" to mean the worst that could happen
but that has been superseded in today's society by "fear of being sued".
Dissapearing back into the woodwork now,
where I keep my stash of cash and the lawyers don't know I exist.
Earl Krueger
Oregon, USA
Steve Slatin on wed 16 sep 09
Earl -- It's hard to tell if the=3D20
McD's case ended up having any effect
on insurance costs at all. First, the
judgment was ultimately reduced to=3D20
$640,000, so the payout wasn't so
big. Second, most insurance covers
won't pay off for more than the=3D20
settlement offer an insurance co
suggests be made, and they may well
have suggested McD's settle at the
20,000 level. If so, the difference
was paid by McD.
It is unfortunate when people and
institutions become afraid of=3D20
unreasonable lawsuits. It just
might be, though, that the fear is
largely the product of the powerful
insurance lobby's agitating for
tort reform.
(BTW, I *do* support tort reform. I
also support punative damages, though,
when manufacturers know of a risk and
subject their clients to it in secret=3D20
-- like big tobacco 'amping up' the
nicotine levels in secret in anticipation=3D20
of restrictions on advertising.)
Best wishes -- Steve S
--- On Wed, 9/16/09, Earl Krueger wrote:
=3D20
> On the lawsuit (Liebeck v. McDonalds)=3D20
> ( Steve,=3DA0 long long time no talk... But now it's my
> turn to rant.=3DA0 )=3D20
>=3D20
>=3D20
> Irrespective of whether or not one considers the decision
> in this case just or unjust this singular event has had a
> profound negative effect on our society.
>=3D20
>=3D20
> Everyone knows about the "McDonalds lawsuit".=3DA0
> It has become the archetype of the successful plaintif's
> lawsuit.=3DA0 The Golden Fleece for which certain lawyers and
> the unscrupulous search.=3DA0 The Powerball of the legal
> system.
>=3D20
>=3D20
> But we need to ask just how much this has cost each of
> us.=3DA0 Directly in increased liability insurance premiums (
> ever wonder why they call them premiums? ) and
> indirectly in increased prices we pay to others for products
> and services so that they in turn can pay for insurance.
>=3D20
>=3D20
> And what's more disturbing are the intangible costs.=3DA0
> To get a sense of this all one has to do is read Clayart and
> notice how many times fear of litigation is mentioned.=3DA0=3DA0
> Many people who might start a business in order to make
> their livelihood, and perhaps create jobs for others as
> well, are afraid to take the risk or perhaps they can't
> build a good business case due to the high cost of insurance
> ( think light aircraft industry ).
>=3D20
>=3D20
> We used to use the phrase "fear of God" to mean
> the worst that could happen but that has been superseded in
> today's society by "fear of being sued".
>=3D20
> Dissapearing back into the woodwork now,=3D20
>=3D20
> where I keep my stash of cash and the lawyers don't
> know I exist.
>=3D20
> Earl Krueger
> Oregon, USA
>=3D20
> =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0=3D20
>=3D20
>=3D20
> =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A
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