Edouard Bastarache on fri 16 oct 09
Vince,
right on !!!
Gis,
Edouard Bastarache
Spertesperantisto
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
http://edouardbastarache.blogspot.com/
http://substitutions.blogspot.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30058682@N00/
http://albertpaintings.blogspot.com/
http://cerampeintures.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vince Pitelka"
To: "clayart"
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 8:25 PM
Subject: RE: Spraybooths, now Sanding booths
> This makes me cringe. Sanding takes the life out of handmade ware. I am
> not saying that is never appropriate. The Southwest Native Americans san=
d
> their coil-built pots before applying polychrome decoration or a
> burnishing
> slip, and it is part of their tradition going way back. But otherwise, o=
n
> handmade utilitarian ware, sanding removes all the evidence of process -
> the
> marks of the maker, and I cannot imagine why anyone would want to do that=
.
> Why make your work look like it came from a factory?
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Craft
> Tennessee Tech University
> vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
>
Lis Allison on fri 16 oct 09
I have a question related to those about spraybooths.
I'd like some arrangement for removing dust from bisque ware. One of the
clays I use has grog, so damp sponging the greenware before firing is not
an option. We sand (wearing respirators) but the dust gets into the room.
Then the fired bisque needs to be washed and dried overnight before
glazing, big bore and sometimes we don't have the time to wait.
My vague dream is a booth with strong vacumming action to pull the dust
out as we sand, and maybe some sort of hose or nozzle to run over the
fired ware to suck off the dust.
Ideas? What do 'real' potters do?
Lis
--
Elisabeth Allison
Pine Ridge Studio
www.Pine-Ridge-Studio.blogspot.com
William & Susan Schran User on fri 16 oct 09
On 10/16/09 9:00 AM, "Lis Allison" wrote:
> I'd like some arrangement for removing dust from bisque ware. One of the
> clays I use has grog, so damp sponging the greenware before firing is not
> an option. We sand (wearing respirators) but the dust gets into the room.
> Then the fired bisque needs to be washed and dried overnight before
> glazing, big bore and sometimes we don't have the time to wait.
>
> My vague dream is a booth with strong vacumming action to pull the dust
> out as we sand, and maybe some sort of hose or nozzle to run over the
> fired ware to suck off the dust.
I think rather than a spray booth, you might want to consider a sand
blasting booth. Here's a link to building one:
http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/02/diy_sandblast_booth.html
You could use a shop vacuum with long hose coming into the booth with a
brush attachment on it to vacuum off the dust.
WARNING! DO NOT USE THE SHOP VAC IN THE STUDIO!
The filters on a shop vac are not suitable for clay dust.
You'll just be putting clay dust in the studio air much worse than what you
are doing now.
Shop Vac brand does sell HEPA filters for 99% filtration to .3 microns, but
I'd still be leery about vacuuming clay dust in my studio.
Bill
--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
Randall Moody on fri 16 oct 09
On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Lis Allison wrote:
> I have a question related to those about spraybooths.
>
> I'd like some arrangement for removing dust from bisque ware. One of the
> clays I use has grog, so damp sponging the greenware before firing is not
> an option. We sand (wearing respirators) but the dust gets into the room.
> Then the fired bisque needs to be washed and dried overnight before
> glazing, big bore and sometimes we don't have the time to wait.
>
> My vague dream is a booth with strong vacumming action to pull the dust
> out as we sand, and maybe some sort of hose or nozzle to run over the
> fired ware to suck off the dust.
>
> Ideas? What do 'real' potters do?
>
Why are you sanding? I am of the opinion that anything that would need
sanding should have been taken care of at an earlier stage. Grog raised
while trimming the foot? Soft rib or finger to smooth the grog back down at
the end of trimming.
Pot a little rough? Soft rib or fingers during the final shaping or at the
leather hard stage.
Clay to groggy? Use a less groggy clay.
I am yet to hear of a valid reason to sand a pot at the bisque stage.
--
Randall in Atlanta
Snail Scott on fri 16 oct 09
On Oct 16, 2009, at 8:00 AM, Lis Allison wrote:
> ...We sand...Then the fired bisque needs to be washed and dried
> overnight before
> glazing...
Damp sponge.
-Snail
James Freeman on fri 16 oct 09
On 10/16/09, Lis Allison wrote:
> I have a question related to those about spraybooths.
>
> I'd like some arrangement for removing dust from bisque ware.
Lis...
If I need to remove dust from bisque, I do so in my spray booth or
outside with a blast of air from my compressor. Air guns are dirt
cheap, $5 from Harbor Freight or $10 from a home center. All dust is
removed quickly and efficiently, and there is no waiting for pots to
dry.
Take care.
...James
--
James Freeman
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice. I
should not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/clayart/
Karin Givon on fri 16 oct 09
Okay, maybe here's a reason to sand at bisk stage....I cut the rims
of pottery ( or sometimes the belly if it's a jar or vase) and there
are little tiny strands of clay tying everything together, or
sometimes other small conections--and of course I cut it when it's
leather hard. I do some 'sanding' at that point with water and a
sponge, but always after I bisk ( or bisque) little seeds or shard-
ettes of clay Arise like the Dawn and show, and must be removed. So
I sand 'em. I use sandpaper. I use a potter's needle. I use a tiny
chainsaw file. I use any tiny file I can find. I use emery boards.
Anyone that has an easy fix for this, feel free to let me know! I
feel like a dentist or something. Not that I don't love my dentist ,
but I don't love this teeny tiny gritty work!
I'm not gonna sandblast them. They're fragile.
Thanks for any and all ideas.
Karin
DancingDragonPottery.net
On Oct 16, 2009, at 7:29 AM, Randall Moody wrote:
On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Lis Allison wrote:
> I have a question related to those about spraybooths.
>
> I'd like some arrangement for removing dust from bisque ware. One
> of the
> clays I use has grog, so damp sponging the greenware before firing
> is not
> an option. We sand (wearing respirators) but the dust gets into the
> room.
> Then the fired bisque needs to be washed and dried overnight before
> glazing, big bore and sometimes we don't have the time to wait.
>
> My vague dream is a booth with strong vacumming action to pull the
> dust
> out as we sand, and maybe some sort of hose or nozzle to run over the
> fired ware to suck off the dust.
>
> Ideas? What do 'real' potters do?
>
Why are you sanding? I am of the opinion that anything that would need
sanding should have been taken care of at an earlier stage. Grog raised
while trimming the foot? Soft rib or finger to smooth the grog back
down at
the end of trimming.
Pot a little rough? Soft rib or fingers during the final shaping or
at the
leather hard stage.
Clay to groggy? Use a less groggy clay.
I am yet to hear of a valid reason to sand a pot at the bisque stage.
--
Randall in Atlanta
Eva Gallagher on fri 16 oct 09
Hi Lis,
I'm not a real, real potter but I never sand unless the odd time that I fin=
d
something rough and then it is just to touch up. I have never heard of
potters regularly sanding their bisque ware. That habit must come from the
mold ceramics people where students need to sand the bisque to remove the
mold marks. Also I never wash or damp wipe my bisque ware unless I know tha=
t
it has been sitting around for months.
But then I guess it depends on your glazes.
Eva Gallagher
Deep River, Ontario
http://stevenhilljourneyworkshopjuly2008.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lis Allison"
To:
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: Spraybooths, now Sanding booths
>I have a question related to those about spraybooths.
>
> I'd like some arrangement for removing dust from bisque ware. One of the
> clays I use has grog, so damp sponging the greenware before firing is not
> an option. We sand (wearing respirators) but the dust gets into the room.
> Then the fired bisque needs to be washed and dried overnight before
> glazing, big bore and sometimes we don't have the time to wait.
>
> My vague dream is a booth with strong vacumming action to pull the dust
> out as we sand, and maybe some sort of hose or nozzle to run over the
> fired ware to suck off the dust.
>
> Ideas? What do 'real' potters do?
>
> Lis
>
> --
> Elisabeth Allison
> Pine Ridge Studio
> www.Pine-Ridge-Studio.blogspot.com
>
>
Vince Pitelka on fri 16 oct 09
This makes me cringe. Sanding takes the life out of handmade ware. I am
not saying that is never appropriate. The Southwest Native Americans sand
their coil-built pots before applying polychrome decoration or a burnishing
slip, and it is part of their tradition going way back. But otherwise, on
handmade utilitarian ware, sanding removes all the evidence of process - th=
e
marks of the maker, and I cannot imagine why anyone would want to do that.
Why make your work look like it came from a factory?
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Des & Jan Howard on sat 17 oct 09
Vince
What are you sanding with? An angle grinder?
A jack hammer? Touching up spikies & dags hardly
removes character.
Besides what's wrong with factories? They're generally
a lot more honest in the resulting product than some of
the crap that comes out of 'studios'.
Des
Vince Pitelka wrote:
> This makes me cringe. Sanding takes the life out of handmade ware. I am
> not saying that is never appropriate.
> But otherwise, on
> handmade utilitarian ware, sanding removes all the evidence of process - =
the
> marks of the maker, and I cannot imagine why anyone would want to do that=
.
> Why make your work look like it came from a factory?
--
Des & Jan Howard
Lue Pottery
Lue NSW
Australia
2850
02 6373 6419
www.luepottery.hwy.com.au
-32.656072 149.840624
Mayssan Farra on sat 17 oct 09
Just for another view on sandblasting.
http://jeffreynichols.us/index.html
Mayssan Shora Farra
http://www.clayvillepottery.com
http://clayette.blogspot.com
----- Original Message ----
From: Edouard Bastarache
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Sent: Fri, October 16, 2009 10:47:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Clayart] Spraybooths, now Sanding booths
Vince,
right on !!!
Gis,
Edouard Bastarache
Spertesperantisto
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
http://edouardbastarache.blogspot.com/
http://substitutions.blogspot.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30058682@N00/
http://albertpaintings.blogspot.com/
http://cerampeintures.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vince Pitelka"
To: "clayart"
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 8:25 PM
Subject: RE: Spraybooths, now Sanding booths
> This makes me cringe. Sanding takes the life out of handmade ware. I am
> not saying that is never appropriate. The Southwest Native Americans san=
d
> their coil-built pots before applying polychrome decoration or a
> burnishing
> slip, and it is part of their tradition going way back. But otherwise, o=
n
> handmade utilitarian ware, sanding removes all the evidence of process -
> the
> marks of the maker, and I cannot imagine why anyone would want to do that=
.
> Why make your work look like it came from a factory?
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Craft
> Tennessee Tech University
> vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
>
Ellen Currans on sat 17 oct 09
I don't understand how anyone can make a blanket statement about the=3D20
rightness of
cleaning up your greenware or bisqueware. There are so many different=3D20
kinds of ceramic
esthetics that what is fitting for one potter may not be for another. =3D20
Can you imagine
finding rough edges and clay crumbs on a Peter Lane bowl? Elaine=3D20
Coleman's work? I don't
sand bisqueware, unless I find a rough crumb I've missed, but I do=3D20
check my greenware
carefully before it goes in the kiln for the kind of stuff that will=3D20
scar a table or ruin a design.
One of those little stick scrubbies used by greenware people to remove=3D20
seams works well for
that.
I got over my guilt at doing so when I read a monograph on David Leach=3D20
printed in l977.
Here is what he says about it.
"As a potter, I do not think of myself as one of what I call the=3D20
'looser' potters. I am not a Hamada or a
John Reeves. I am a much more precise potter and I am led towards=3D20
porcelain which is rather
demanding in these terms. Stoneware needs to be broader and=3D20
stronger--this is not my nature
particularly. My father says that I do not let the fluidity of the=3D20
process speak enough. We cannot
fight against our natures which will always come out in our work. I=3D20
cannot escape
CONSIDERATION. I remember my father asking me to glaze a bowl with a=3D20
very rough-cut
foot in a granular clay. I set to, cleaning away those bits and chips=3D20
and father came up and caught
me at it and gave me hell! I used to fight against or apologise for=3D20
this desire for finish and
precision but not now; I can't change it, that's how I am. When one=3D20
grows older one learns to
accept oneself, warts and all, although I still have a certain envy for=3D2=
0
those whose work mirrors
a more relaxed approach, I am talking now more about personality than=3D20
performance. The
pot must be the expression of the man."
Ellen Currans
Dundee, Oregon
-----Original Message-----
From: Des & Jan Howard
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Sent: Fri, Oct 16, 2009 7:43 pm
Subject: Re: Spraybooths, now Sanding booths
Vince=3DC2=3DA0
What are you sanding with? An angle grinder?=3DC2=3DA0
A jack hammer? Touching up spikies & dags hardly=3DC2=3DA0
removes character.=3DC2=3DA0
Besides what's wrong with factories? They're generally=3DC2=3DA0
a lot more honest in the resulting product than some of=3DC2=3DA0
the crap that comes out of 'studios'.=3DC2=3DA0
Des=3DC2=3DA0
=3DC2=3DA0
Vince Pitelka wrote:=3DC2=3DA0
> This makes me cringe. Sanding takes the life out of handmade ware. =3D20
I am=3DC2=3DA0
> not saying that is never appropriate.=3DC2=3DA0
> But otherwise, on=3DC2=3DA0
> handmade utilitarian ware, sanding removes all the evidence of=3D20
process - the=3DC2=3DA0
> marks of the maker, and I cannot imagine why anyone would want to do=3D20
that.=3DC2=3DA0
> Why make your work look like it came from a factory?=3DC2=3DA0
=3DC2=3DA0
--=3DC2=3DA0
Des & Jan Howard=3DC2=3DA0
Lue Pottery=3DC2=3DA0
Lue NSW=3DC2=3DA0
Australia=3DC2=3DA0
2850=3DC2=3DA0
=3DC2=3DA0
02 6373 6419=3DC2=3DA0
www.luepottery.hwy.com.au=3DC2=3DA0
-32.656072 149.840624=3DC2=3DA0
Randall Moody on sat 17 oct 09
OK so I have been given some valid reasons to sand bisque in specialized
situations. I now revise my statement. I see no valid reason in a communal
art studio, art center, or in a non-advanced teaching setting to sand
bisque.
--
Randall in Atlanta
Lis Allison on sat 17 oct 09
On Friday 16 October 2009, Vince Pitelka wrote:
> This makes me cringe. Sanding takes the life out of handmade ware. , on
>handmade utilitarian ware, sanding
> removes all the evidence of process - the marks of the maker, and I
> cannot imagine why anyone would want to do that. Why make your work
> look like it came from a factory?
Stop cringing!!! I don't sand like that! It's not to take off all making
marks, just to get greeblies off! And I only do it on greenware, not
bisque!!
Lis
--
Elisabeth Allison
Pine Ridge Studio
www.Pine-Ridge-Studio.blogspot.com
Lis Allison on sat 17 oct 09
On Saturday 17 October 2009, Ellen Currans wrote:
> I don't understand how anyone can make a blanket statement about the
> rightness of
> cleaning up your greenware or bisqueware. There are so many different
> kinds of ceramic
> esthetics that what is fitting for one potter may not be for another.
>
Thank you Ellen! David Leach's words ring true for me too!
Lis
--
Elisabeth Allison
Pine Ridge Studio
www.Pine-Ridge-Studio.blogspot.com
Lis Allison on sat 17 oct 09
On Saturday 17 October 2009, Randall Moody wrote:
> OK so I have been given some valid reasons to sand bisque in
> specialized situations. I now revise my statement. I see no valid
> reason in a communal art studio, art center, or in a non-advanced
> teaching setting to sand bisque.
I'll tell you a story: while I was taking a 3-D class at Univ. of Calgary,
I made a sculpture of a really fat person, and the techie fired it before
I was finished with it...... I sanded that sucker for 12 hours to get it
the way I wanted. Started with the grinding wheel and ended with fine
emery paper. Rotten work, but the result must have been OK, I got a 10 out
of 10 and someone stole the thing out of the display case.
Never again!
As I said in my earlier post, I wasn't talking about sanding bisque!
Lis
--
Elisabeth Allison
Pine Ridge Studio
www.Pine-Ridge-Studio.blogspot.com
Bonnie Staffel on sat 17 oct 09
I think that you are missing the point. After throwing and trimming your
pot, also pressing down any obvious roughness, you subject the pot to =3D
the
kiln gods. You know what their job is? To make all that soft feeling =3D
wet
clay turn the surface into sharp crags. Seriously though, if you think =3D
this
through, the clay shrinks in drying but it also shrinks in the bisque
process. The fines do most of the shrinkage and the little pieces of =3D
grog or
particles are going to become the surface of the pot. Hence, you have =3D
that
unpleasant feeling of the pot surface and in some cases you do need to =3D
sand.
I find that my most troublesome spots for sanding are at the joints =3D
where I
have attached things like handles or appendages which were not thrown, =3D
but
hand modeled. This function does not carry the compression that using a =3D
flat
wood tool does to press on the trimmed part of a pot.=3D20
I would assume that only porcelain pots would not have the groggy things =
=3D
to
worry about, but my stoneware clay is made up of many sizes of clay
platelets and they like to appear at the most inappropriate spots and =3D
will
need sanding attention after the bisque fire.=3D20
Bonnie Staffel
sanding should have been taken care of at an earlier stage. Grog raised
while trimming the foot? Soft rib or finger to smooth the grog back
down at the end of trimming.
Pot a little rough? Soft rib or fingers during the final shaping or at =3D
the
leather hard stage.
>Clay to groggy? Use a less groggy clay.
>I am yet to hear of a valid reason to sand a pot at the bisque stage.<
http://webpages.charter.net/bstaffel/
http://vasefinder.com/bstaffelgallery1.html
DVD=3DA0 Throwing with Coils and Slabs
DVD=3DA0 Introduction to Wheel Work
Charter Member Potters Council
Vince Pitelka on sat 17 oct 09
Lis Allison wrote"
"Stop cringing!!! I don't sand like that! It's not to take off all making
marks, just to get greeblies off! And I only do it on greenware, not
bisque!!"
Hi Lis -
For the work that most of us do, I still maintain that all of that can be
done in the damp or leather-hard stage, so that you never have to touch the
work with sandpaper. It's nice to not have to deal with the dust too.
But I did get an off-list post from Rimas VisGirda pointing out that many
European artists appreciate a very clean, streamline aesthetic that benefit=
s
from sanding at the bone-dry and/or bisque-fired stage, and I apologize for
not acknowledging that use of sanding. If you are going for that very
clean, streamlined aesthetic where the is no evidence of the human hand in
the finished product, then sanding is probably an appropriate finish. My ow=
n
personal preference is to see the marks of the maker in the finished
product.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Vince Pitelka on sat 17 oct 09
Ellen Currans wrote:
"I don't understand how anyone can make a blanket statement about the =3D
rightness of
cleaning up your greenware or bisqueware. There are so many different =3D
kinds of ceramic
esthetics that what is fitting for one potter may not be for another. =3D
Can you imagine
finding rough edges and clay crumbs on a Peter Lane bowl? Elaine =3D
Coleman's work? I don't
sand bisqueware, unless I find a rough crumb I've missed, but I do check =
=3D
my greenware
carefully before it goes in the kiln for the kind of stuff that will =3D
scar a table or ruin a design.
One of those little stick scrubbies used by greenware people to remove =3D
seams works well for
that.
Ellen -=3D20
I can appreciate your comments and David Leach's words. My contention =3D
is that all of that can be taken care of at the wet and leather-hard =3D
stage, and that it's more efficient and aesthetically pleasing when it =3D
is done at that stage. If a small defect does survive to the bone-dry =3D
stage, then by all means use a piece of Scotchbrite green scrubby or a =3D
scrap of sandpaper to deal with it. And of course there are some =3D
carving/finishing techniques that work best at the bone-dry stage. =3D20
My response was driven primarily by a concern that some people think it =3D
is fine for work to be made rough in the initial creation because they =3D
can sand it when dry. That's the worst-case scenario, because it really =
=3D
does kill the expression and feeling in the work. Sure there are times =3D
when sanding is appropriate, as I acknowledged in an earlier post today. =
=3D
I just think that handmade pots often come out better when people =3D
address surface detail and finish with their hands and their tools while =
=3D
the clay is wet or leather-hard.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Des & Jan Howard on sat 17 oct 09
Lis
After the glaze arrangement mockup is done the selected
pots are put through the spray/sanding/sandblast booth
for a touchup/final checkover/spider cleanout, a bit of
light sandpaper, a chip with a fettling knife. A blast
from an air nozzle if necessary. A wipe with a damp
sponge follows.
Des
Lis Allison wrote:
> I have a question related to those about spraybooths.
>
> I'd like some arrangement for removing dust from bisque ware. One of the
> clays I use has grog, so damp sponging the greenware before firing is not
> an option. We sand (wearing respirators) but the dust gets into the room.
> Then the fired bisque needs to be washed and dried overnight before
> glazing, big bore and sometimes we don't have the time to wait.
>
> My vague dream is a booth with strong vacumming action to pull the dust
> out as we sand, and maybe some sort of hose or nozzle to run over the
> fired ware to suck off the dust.
>
> Ideas? What do 'real' potters do?
>
> Lis
>
> --
> Elisabeth Allison
> Pine Ridge Studio
> www.Pine-Ridge-Studio.blogspot.com
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.19/2438 - Release Date: 10/15/0=
9 12:02:00
>
--
Des & Jan Howard
Lue Pottery
Lue NSW
Australia
2850
02 6373 6419
www.luepottery.hwy.com.au
-32.656072 149.840624
Lee Love on sat 17 oct 09
Lis,
In Mashiko, my teacher's work was always dusted outside
before glazing it, wearing particle masks. We made our dusters out
of shredded rice rope. We would whip the dusters, so the ends of
the shredded strings would barely hit the pot. All "dust making"
activities, including dry mixing, was done outside.
These homemade dusters worked really well. But you could try a
feather duster or one of the synthetic types.
There are reasons to treat pots with abrasives after they
are glazed fired. All stoneware pots in Japan have a stone run
accross their feet to smooth them. Af the pottery festivals, when
you heard the stone ringing on the foot of a pot, you knew a potter
made a sale.
Also, in wood fire, you sometimes have to smooth ash
deposits or where pots sit on wads or shells. Also, in Shimaoka's
Yohen chamber, where charcoal was added at the end of the firing, the
beauty of the pots surface didn't appear until after the pots were
pollished with sandpaper, 3M green and red scrubbies, and then
polished with a soft cloth.
So don't listen to Vince and Randell. They don't know what they
are talking about. It is your responsibility to use the methods
required to get the effect you desire.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Lis Allison on sun 18 oct 09
On Saturday 17 October 2009, Vince Pitelka wrote:
>
> My response was driven primarily by a concern that some people think it
> is fine for work to be made rough in the initial creation because they
> can sand it when dry. That's the worst-case scenario, because it
> really does kill the expression and feeling in the work. Sure there
> are times when sanding is appropriate, as I acknowledged in an earlier
> post today. I just think that handmade pots often come out better when
> people address surface detail and finish with their hands and their
> tools while the clay is wet or leather-hard. - Vince
I agree totally, Vince. But, referring to your other post about some
European workers going for the clean streamlined line, maybe that does
explain my concern about smooth surfaces! I was born in Holland and seem
drawn to the Scandinavian 'look'.
There are so many wonderful 'looks' possible in clay that I think each
potter has to choose one (or a few) and work away at that. At least for
enough years to satisfy themselves. Much as I love the look and feel of
high-fired reduction wares, I decided early on to work with a smooth white
porcelain at cone 6. A different aesthetic. Not better or worse, just
different.
Lately however, I have become a bit bored with that (likely because I have
hit the point where improvement is now very difficult, at least for me.)
So I have added a line of red/brown stoneware, using soft rounded shapes
and round rims, etc. It is doing very well sales-wise and allows me to
sell functional ware at a lower price, not a small thing in this recession
year. It is this ware which ends up with dust on the bisque.
And I submit that there is a difference between what I call 'greeblies'
and what I heard wonderfully dubbed 'process indicators'. To use an
example from painting, brushstrokes are process indicators, but the
artist's muffin crumbs embedded in the upper right hand corner is a
'greeblie'. And for an artist who works fast and casually, a thumbprint
might be part of his process, while for one who works carefully it would
be a 'greeblie'. I don't try to eliminate process indicators from my work,
in fact I would be thrilled if they became an active part of my 'style',
but I do try to avoid 'greeblies'.
Lis
--
Elisabeth Allison
Pine Ridge Studio
www.Pine-Ridge-Studio.blogspot.com
Lis Allison on sun 18 oct 09
On Saturday 17 October 2009, Lee Love wrote:
> In Mashiko, my teacher's work was always dusted outside
>
Funny, I hadn't even thought of taking the pots outside to dust! We use a
damp cloth for the main dusting, and small bristly paint brushes for
dusting the corners and foot rings. Taking them outside would certainly
help, but we could only do it in the summer! It gets -30C here, with huge
piles of snow..... hard to get a large number of pots outside, too.
I still think an enclosed (except for the front of course) booth with a
strong suction device exiting the air outside would be the answer. Then
hold the pot inside and dust away, with all the dust flying outside. (I
have no neighbours, btw, I live in the woods.)
>....All stoneware pots in Japan have a stone run
> accross their feet to smooth them.
And that's another thing. What do others do to make sure the feet/foot
rings are totally smooth? I give them a brisk rub with sandpaper. Even my
smooth porcelain clay isn't totally baby's-bottom soft when fired. I worry
about mugs and such placed on fine furniture, then dragged....
Lis
--
Elisabeth Allison
Pine Ridge Studio
www.Pine-Ridge-Studio.blogspot.com
Vince Pitelka on sun 18 oct 09
Lis Allison wrote:
"And I submit that there is a difference between what I call 'greeblies'
and what I heard wonderfully dubbed 'process indicators'. To use an
example from painting, brushstrokes are process indicators, but the
artist's muffin crumbs embedded in the upper right hand corner is a
'greeblie'. And for an artist who works fast and casually, a thumbprint
might be part of his process, while for one who works carefully it would
be a 'greeblie'. I don't try to eliminate process indicators from my =3D
work,
in fact I would be thrilled if they became an active part of my 'style',
but I do try to avoid 'greeblies'."
Lis -=3D20
You explain this well, and I agree with this concept. I might be a =3D
little over-sensitive to this issue. 20 years ago while in grad school =3D
I started exploring the wonderful simplified ceramic processes and =3D
techniques of ancient and tribal cultures, and realized that they are =3D
largely ignored in the modern study of ceramics. In my classes and =3D
workshops I started teaching people how to do ceramic work using this =3D
antiquated technology, including terra sigillata and bonfiring. That =3D
was the source of the "Ancient Clay" workshop that I teach. In that =3D
approach, we make pinch and coil vessels, sand them smooth when dry, =3D
apply terra sigillata, and polish the surface. The terra sig adheres =3D
very well to the sanded surface, and as long as the only grit in the =3D
claybody is extra-fine, it sands well and yields a very smooth terra sig =
=3D
surface. This approach draws loosely from many traditions worldwide, =3D
including Southwest Native American. =3D20
Early every semester in my Intro to Clay class, when the students are =3D
learning pinch and coil construction, they are required to include three =
=3D
pinch vessels and a small coil vessel in a blackware bonfiring, and =3D
these pots are prepared as described above. They go into the bonfiring =3D
with a bright brick-red color from the Redart terra sig, and come out =3D
gloss jet-black with beautiful fire markings. The transformation is =3D
pretty thrilling. As mentioned, that happens only about four weeks into =
=3D
the semester, and it is their first firing experience. After that, no =3D
matter how much I stress that sanding is not normally the way we finish =3D
pots, I frequently find evidence that they have sanded part or all of =3D
some forms. I address this delicately in critique, and by the end of =3D
the semester most students come to understand the difference between a =3D
surface that has been finished at the wet and leather-hard stage, and =3D
one that has been sanded when bone dry. Both are valid, depending on =3D
the intent of the artist, but I really do want to see my students fully =3D
explore and understand the possibilities of mark-making and finishing at =
=3D
the damp and leather hard stage, and only resort to sanding if it =3D
specifically gives the finish they seek.
I probably over-explained that.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Lee Love on sun 18 oct 09
On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 7:38 AM, Lis Allison wrote:
>
>
> And I submit that there is a difference between what I call 'greeblies'
> and what I heard wonderfully dubbed 'process indicators'. To use an
> example from painting, brushstrokes are process indicators, but the
> artist's muffin crumbs embedded in the upper right hand corner is a
> 'greeblie'. And for an artist who works fast and casually, a thumbprint
> might be part of his process, while for one who works carefully it would
> be a 'greeblie'. I don't try to eliminate process indicators from my work=
=3D
,
> in fact I would be thrilled if they became an active part of my 'style',
> but I do try to avoid 'greeblies'.
Lis,
One of the reasons I am doing earthenware is for a simple,
lower cost line that I won't send to shops. It can be lower because
the firing costs less and also because I will not be sharing a
percentage.
One of the epiphanies I had during my apprenticeship, was
that I realized, in my own work, I some times exaggerated things like
throwing lines. My teacher's work was done so that these weren't
present, because they interfered with the impression and inlay
process. Bumps tended to make the inlay nonuniformed, because raised
places would have inlay scraped away, regardless of the inlay texture
beneath it.
Before I started the apprenticeship, I liked Hamada's
casual style better than his student's, Shimaoka. But after doing
the work on Shimaoka pots, I came to better appreciate the subtle,
understated beauty of them.
There are many ways to avoid sanding by changing what
you do while you are throwing. A metal rib can smooth out a groggy
surface.
Something I have found I enjoy, is putting terra sig on
earthenware. It gives you a smooth surface, without hiding surface
marks like glaze sometimes does. For groggy feet, you can always
put a coat of terra sig on them. And terra sigged pie plates are
non-stick. They are like a teflon surface. They also created a
sealed, less absorbent surface compared to bare clay.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Randall Moody on sun 18 oct 09
>
>
> So don't listen to Vince and Randell. They don't know what they
> are talking about. It is your responsibility to use the methods
> required to get the effect you desire.
>
>
Just... wow.... Is there enough room on the internet for Lee's ego? Look
out. He may nod off to sleep and crush everyone with his big giant head. :)
I personally revised my statement concerning sanding bisque and I believe
that Vince's position is much the same. There are certain specific
conditions where sanding may be appropriate but as Vince put it, "For the
work that most of us do, I still maintain that all of that can be done in
the damp or leather-hard stage, so that you never have to touch the work
with sandpaper. It's nice to not have to deal with the dust too."
Even given touching up the tiny, (or at least they should be), flaws or
grubbies, there shouldn't be enough sanding to warrant an entire booth
system dedicated to such in the average case. (Crystalline glazers,
euro-smoothie potters etc. not included.)
--
Randall in Atlanta
Vince Pitelka on sun 18 oct 09
Lis Allison wrote:
"And that's another thing. What do others do to make sure the feet/foot
rings are totally smooth? I give them a brisk rub with sandpaper. Even my
smooth porcelain clay isn't totally baby's-bottom soft when fired. I worry
about mugs and such placed on fine furniture, then dragged...."
Lis -
For smoothing the bottoms of fired pots we use an abrasive flap wheel
mounted on a bench grinder. It produces a silky-smooth finish, but it does
leave a slight colored residue. It doesn't really show up on stoneware, bu=
t
it is quite visible on porcelain. When the discoloration is an issue, we
just smooth the bottom with fine-grit 3-M wet-or-dry emery paper. Sand wet=
,
and there is no dust.
For anyone interested in getting an abrasive flap wheel for your bench
grinder, go to www.grainger.com and enter part #3DV14 in the search box and
it will take you to a 6" by 1" 80-grit flap wheel. Notice that it has a 1"
arbor hole, so you also need to order the adapter bushing set to make it fi=
t
the 1/2" shaft on your bench grinder. Enter part #3DV21 for the adapter
bushing set. A flap wheel and the pair of adapters will cost you less than
$25. If you don't have a bench grinder, go to www.grizzly.com and enter
"H8148" in the search box you will find a very nice 6" Bench Grinder for
$50, so for a total investment of $75 you can get the whole works, and
you'll be able to grind the bottoms of your pots and the edges of your tool=
s
too. When using the bench grinder for any use, be sure to wear safety
goggles or face shield, and of course if any dust is being produced wear
respirator too.
Of course fired clay is very hard, and even with the smoothest finish, if
someone drags the piece across a table they are likely to leave a scratch.
The same would be true of commercial china.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Chris Campbell on sun 18 oct 09
I need to sand my colored porcelain
when it is leather hard, after it is
bisqued and again after high firing.
I have found several alternatives to
dusty sanding.
At leather hard the work can be
'sanded' by wiping it carefully with
a damp natural sponge.
NOT an artificial sponge.
I usually do all the outsides one day,
dry overnight and then sand the inside
the next day. Doing both surfaces the
same day sometimes leads to collapse
since I work very thin.
When dust will be produced, I sand over
a large plastic glaze type bucket.
I put a few inches of water on the bottom
to absorb the dust particles then I sand the
work by holding it just inside the bucket.
The dust falls into the water and settles to
the bottom. I usually wear a high quality
mask to filter out any stray particles.
I use wet/dry sandpaper on wet bisque
so there is no air born dust.
My porcelain needs a quick sanding
after high firing to smooth the surface
since I do not use glazes.
Wet sanding does this and leaves no
traces behind.
Go to your local Ace Hardware ...
in the sanding aisle you will find a lot of
new products that work much better than
the simple sheet of sandpaper. Some hold
most of the dust on them until you dip them
in water.
Whether you are in a home studio or a
community center it is your job to keep down
the dust and it does not need to be expensive ...
just thoughtful.
Chris Campbell - in North Carolina
Chris Campbell Pottery LLC
Designs in Colored Porcelain
9417 Koupela Drive
Raleigh NC 27615-2233
919-215-8644
Fax: 919-676-2062
www.ccpottery.com
http://neriagechris.blogspot.com/
Russel Fouts on sun 18 oct 09
>> Just for another view on sandblasting.
http://jeffreynichols.us/index.html
<<
As I understand it, it's not sand blasted, the 'erosion' is done on
the raw glaze before it's fired.
Russel
Russel Fouts
Mes Potes & Mes Pots
Brussels, Belgium
Tel: +32 2 223 02 75
Mobile: +32 476 55 38 75
http://www.mypots.com
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Des & Jan Howard on mon 19 oct 09
Vince
Aww, no more than usual ;)
But then that's why I always read your posts.
Des
Vince Pitelka wrote:
> I probably over-explained that.
> - Vince
--
Des & Jan Howard
Lue Pottery
Lue NSW
Australia
2850
02 6373 6419
www.luepottery.hwy.com.au
-32.656072 149.840624
Des & Jan Howard on mon 19 oct 09
Lis
We use a upside-down orbital sander.
http://www.luepottery.hwy.com.au/Images/workshop%20pics/spray%20booth/sande=
r.jpg
As we glaze right to the edge a flap wheel sander would
be too imprecise.
Des
Lis Allison wrote:
> And that's another thing. What do others do to make sure the feet/foot
> rings are totally smooth? I give them a brisk rub with sandpaper. Even my
> smooth porcelain clay isn't totally baby's-bottom soft when fired. I worr=
y
> about mugs and such placed on fine furniture, then dragged....
--
Des & Jan Howard
Lue Pottery
Lue NSW
Australia
2850
02 6373 6419
www.luepottery.hwy.com.au
-32.656072 149.840624
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