Stephani Stephenson on sat 5 dec 09
Mel wrote (quoting Bob)`why is it that everyone talks about erosion as a
bad, awful thing? what made the grand canyon? erosion.
what has made every national wonder? erosion and nature
plowing along for eons. that is what nature does..hot, cold,
rain, no rain...we have lived here for a few hundred years, but
hay creek is about a million years in the making. nature knows
what it is doing, people are like ants, they come, they go.`
OK, my quick take on erosion...
i agree, in one sense this is true. but manmade erosion can change a plac=
=3D
e in very quick=3D20
time.
an example is San Pedro river. as late as 1870 it was a Riparian watersh=
=3D
ed, full of=3D20
wildlife, beaver, bear, wolves, jaguar,cougar, bear, and so many species =
=3D
,can't begin to=3D20
name them.=3D20
some agriculture and hunting had been going on for centuries. actually, m=
=3D
ining had been=3D20
going on for centuries as well. river was a fine full river, river banks =
=3D
were somewhat=3D20
shallow. water filtered by natural stands of natives grasses, cattails, l=
=3D
arge deciduous and=3D20
coniferous trees, etc. there were even cattle sheep and horses from the 1=
=3D
500s to the=3D20
1800s, in relatively small, though increasing numbers
Verdant, productive, supporting good amount of plantlife, soil life, bug =
=3D
life, animal life,=3D20
people. In 20 years the following had happened.=3D20=3D20
beaver were completely trapped out. beaver dams help slow down water, and=
=3D
are good=3D20
for plants, soil and wildlife.also for flood control. no more beaver or b=
=3D
eaver damns.
millions , yes millions of cattle were brought to graze and also driven o=
=3D
ver the land to get=3D20
them to California when california was settled. then millions of sheep we=
=3D
re set there to=3D20
graze. by 1890 the land was so overgrazed, the landscape was denuded.
when the silver and copper mines opened up stream in the late 1800s, well=
=3D
you know=3D20
what happens there. tailings, flooding, waste, digging, more erosion.
so all in all, landscape was denuded, which meant the stream banks could =
=3D
no longer=3D20
handle runoff.
so , though in terms of millions of years, this is nothing, what happened=
=3D
is that, when=3D20
land is denuded in an arid climate the soil structure can no longer absor=
=3D
b water.
no plants mean that the surface soil temperature increases dramatically, =
=3D
so that seeds,=3D20
even hardy desert seeds, cannot sprout. when soils are compacted by too m=
=3D
any hooves=3D20
or machines, the soil structure breaks down, and can no longer hold water=
=3D
, so water=3D20
scours it, instead of soaking in.
no soil structure ,no plants, no plants, no accumulated organic matter , =
=3D
no soil structure.=3D20
when rains come they scour out gullies with steep banks, instead of feedi=
=3D
ng soil, plants,=3D20
fish and animals. all of these factors can combine to degrade and dest=
=3D
roy a large area=3D20
ecosystem in very short time, to the point where it cannot support a fra=
=3D
ction of the life it=3D20
once supported.
you might stand back and say , what the hey? in some cases though , the h=
=3D
and of man is=3D20
so clearly involved in the deterioration, why not gladly work toward some=
=3D
restoration,=3D20
especially when the benefits will be so clearly appreciated and useful?
The nice surprise is , and I saw this when i worked as a ranger up in ce=
=3D
ntral Oregon, that=3D20=3D20
Nature is amazing. At the Painted hills in C. Oregon, the 3000 acre park=
=3D
was fenced off,=3D20
to prevent sheep and cattle grazing in other wise open grazing land... i=
=3D
n about 15 years,=3D20
even in dry country, the creek came back, the grasses and vegetation came=
=3D
back.if you=3D20
looked down a fence line you would be shocked at the difference. The ranc=
=3D
hers, some of=3D20
them just scratched their heads, especially since Painted hills was consi=
=3D
dered the worst=3D20
quality of land around one day i saw a gorgeous big steelhead in tiny bri=
=3D
dge creek, where=3D20
lovely creek banks gave it coolness and protection.
once you see how beautiful some of these desert canyons and creeks can be=
=3D
, climb up to=3D20
some of the pocket palm canyons in the Anza Borrego, you understand how r=
=3D
ich even an=3D20
arid land is.When you see thousands upon thousands of sandhill cranes dow=
=3D
n at willcox in=3D20
January, you appreciate the way it works.=3D20
One thing I find exciting is that this doesn't mean exclusion of human ac=
=3D
tivity. some of=3D20
the new approaches are really a lot like the old approaches. it makes sen=
=3D
se to be a good=3D20
steward. Many of the ranchers in the southwest are working alongside the =
=3D
extention=3D20
agents a,,, etc to work toward a new approach toward land use and manage=
=3D
ment. They=3D20
have to, in order to survive, economically. so in terms of water conserva=
=3D
tion, range=3D20
restoration, alternative sources of power, etc... private landholders are=
=3D
working with=3D20
public agencies and getting more saavy about a lot of things. So we'll se=
=3D
e what is possible=3D20
and what is sensible. Deserts are more marginal lands in terms of water a=
=3D
nd soil, so=3D20
mistakes have consequences...rapidly .
On the last visit I saw Cardinals on a Toyon bush. didn't know they came =
=3D
so far west.=3D20
beautiful.
Oh and a final Bear story. I guess the property where I'll be has been in=
=3D
the news. a few=3D20
years back avery large black bear wandered up from the river and climbed =
=3D
one of the=3D20
two big cottonwoods on the property and wouldn't come down.=3D20
Lee Love on sat 5 dec 09
On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Stephani Stephenson
wrote:
> Mel wrote (quoting Bob)`why is it that everyone talks about erosion as a
> bad, awful thing? =3DA0what made the grand canyon? =3DA0erosion.
> OK, my quick take on erosion...
> i agree, in one sense this is true. but manmade erosion can change a plac=
=3D
e in very
We don't remember the dust bowl.
One of the problems of agriculture in China, is that their topsoil
is being blown into the air, to land on Japan and in the oceans.
Japan has been having beautiful sunsets because of this phenomenon
The problem with agricultural topsoil loss, is that it takes
a long time to replace:
It takes 500 years to replace 1 inch of topsoil In a natural
environment, topsoil is built up by decaying plant matter and
weathering rock, and it is protected from erosion by growing plants.
In soil made susceptible by agriculture, erosion is reducing
productivity up to 65% each year. Former prairie lands, which
constitute the bread basket of the United States, have lost one half
of their topsoil after farming for about 100 years. This soil is
eroding 30 times faster than the natural formation rate. Food crops
are much hungrier than the natural grasses that once covered the Great
Plains. As a result, the remaining topsoil is increasingly depleted of
nutrients. Soil erosion and mineral depletion removes about $20
billion worth of plant nutrients from U.S.
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/100303_eating_oil.html
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Snail Scott on sat 5 dec 09
On Dec 5, 2009, at 12:11 PM, Stephani Stephenson wrote:
> ...San Pedro river. as late as 1870 it was a Riparian watershed, full
> of
> wildlife...by 1890 the land was so overgrazed, the landscape was
> denuded...
When the Conquistadors entered that part of the (now)
American Southwest, they wrote about grass too thick
to walk through, stirrup-high on a mounted rider.
Overgrazing gave us the wasteland we see now, which
nearly everyone mistakes for the natural desert terrain.
You seldom see the cattle - it takes acres per head to
sustain beef cattle - but if you look at the fence lines,
you see what the land might look like without them.
There's desert, and then there's desert.
-Snail
Stephani Stephenson on sat 5 dec 09
not that it matters but when i mentioned a fish in Bridge creek i said st=
=3D
eelhead..i meant to=3D20
say cutthroat..grangh!
John Rodgers on sat 5 dec 09
The story is the same all over. I remember reading of a plantation owner
in the Carolina's in the early days of this country. He spoke of cotton
as high as a man on horseback. But the soil is now depleted and will not
support that kind of growth. Th only way anymore to get sustained yield
is to add back through chemical fertilizer that which was taken in the
past. It is a poor substitute and pushes everything out of balance. But
this kind of cotton is no more. To many mis-adventures by man.
In the early days of explorations naturalists passing through Alabama
wrote of what is now the Alabama River, and seeing a whitewater wave
rushing upriver - but as it got closer it could be seen that it was huge
shoals of fish - and behind them was alligators rushing into feed. But
no more. To many mis-adventures by man.
In my own experience in 30 years of living in Alaska, in the beginning
salmon would be so thick in the creeks you cuold walk across on their
backs practically. But no more. To many mis-adventures by man.
In the plains states thee were great herds of buffalo with grasse to
support them, but no more. To many misadventures by man.
The slow churning of the land into a morasse of ground that nothing can
live on continues. We may be STARTING to get the message - we must be
good stewards of the land. The old principle of "Conquering the
Wilderness" was fallacy, and we have pretty much lost paradise as a
consequence.
I am reminded of an early lesson learned when viewing a bacterial colony
growing in the middle of a petri dish. It grew and grew and grew -
consuming everything in site, and as it did so, it's own poisons began
to kill it in the center, but there was still plenty of food - but soon
enough - it reached the limits of it's environment - all the food was
consumed, and it's own waste and starvation killed it. A strong lesson.
We had best learn how to be good stewards, and get in step with nature,
instead of struggling against nature - lest we suffer a similar fate as
the bacterial colony.
John Rodgers
Clayartist and Moldmaker
88'GL VW Bus Driver
Chelsea, AL
Http://www.moldhaus.com
Stephani Stephenson wrote:
> Mel wrote (quoting Bob)`why is it that everyone talks about erosion as a
> bad, awful thing? what made the grand canyon? erosion.
> what has made every national wonder? erosion and nature
> plowing along for eons. that is what nature does..hot, cold,
> rain, no rain...we have lived here for a few hundred years, but
> hay creek is about a million years in the making. nature knows
> what it is doing, people are like ants, they come, they go.`
>
> OK, my quick take on erosion...
> i agree, in one sense this is true. but manmade erosion can change a plac=
e in very quick
> time.
> an example is San Pedro river. as late as 1870 it was a Riparian watersh=
ed, full of
> wildlife, beaver, bear, wolves, jaguar,cougar, bear, and so many species =
,can't begin to
> name them.
> some agriculture and hunting had been going on for centuries. actually, m=
ining had been
> going on for centuries as well. river was a fine full river, river banks =
were somewhat
> shallow. water filtered by natural stands of natives grasses, cattails, l=
arge deciduous and
> coniferous trees, etc. there were even cattle sheep and horses from the 1=
500s to the
> 1800s, in relatively small, though increasing numbers
> Verdant, productive, supporting good amount of plantlife, soil life, bug =
life, animal life,
> people. In 20 years the following had happened.
> beaver were completely trapped out. beaver dams help slow down water, and=
are good
> for plants, soil and wildlife.also for flood control. no more beaver or b=
eaver damns.
>
> millions , yes millions of cattle were brought to graze and also driven o=
ver the land to get
> them to California when california was settled. then millions of sheep we=
re set there to
> graze. by 1890 the land was so overgrazed, the landscape was denuded.
> when the silver and copper mines opened up stream in the late 1800s, well=
you know
> what happens there. tailings, flooding, waste, digging, more erosion.
> so all in all, landscape was denuded, which meant the stream banks could =
no longer
> handle runoff.
> so , though in terms of millions of years, this is nothing, what happened=
is that, when
> land is denuded in an arid climate the soil structure can no longer absor=
b water.
> no plants mean that the surface soil temperature increases dramatically, =
so that seeds,
> even hardy desert seeds, cannot sprout. when soils are compacted by too m=
any hooves
> or machines, the soil structure breaks down, and can no longer hold water=
, so water
> scours it, instead of soaking in.
> no soil structure ,no plants, no plants, no accumulated organic matter , =
no soil structure.
> when rains come they scour out gullies with steep banks, instead of feedi=
ng soil, plants,
> fish and animals. all of these factors can combine to degrade and dest=
roy a large area
> ecosystem in very short time, to the point where it cannot support a fra=
ction of the life it
> once supported.
> you might stand back and say , what the hey? in some cases though , the h=
and of man is
> so clearly involved in the deterioration, why not gladly work toward some=
restoration,
> especially when the benefits will be so clearly appreciated and useful?
> The nice surprise is , and I saw this when i worked as a ranger up in ce=
ntral Oregon, that
> Nature is amazing. At the Painted hills in C. Oregon, the 3000 acre park=
was fenced off,
> to prevent sheep and cattle grazing in other wise open grazing land... i=
n about 15 years,
> even in dry country, the creek came back, the grasses and vegetation came=
back.if you
> looked down a fence line you would be shocked at the difference. The ranc=
hers, some of
> them just scratched their heads, especially since Painted hills was consi=
dered the worst
> quality of land around one day i saw a gorgeous big steelhead in tiny bri=
dge creek, where
> lovely creek banks gave it coolness and protection.
>
> once you see how beautiful some of these desert canyons and creeks can be=
, climb up to
> some of the pocket palm canyons in the Anza Borrego, you understand how r=
ich even an
> arid land is.When you see thousands upon thousands of sandhill cranes dow=
n at willcox in
> January, you appreciate the way it works.
> One thing I find exciting is that this doesn't mean exclusion of human ac=
tivity. some of
> the new approaches are really a lot like the old approaches. it makes sen=
se to be a good
> steward. Many of the ranchers in the southwest are working alongside the =
extention
> agents a,,, etc to work toward a new approach toward land use and manage=
ment. They
> have to, in order to survive, economically. so in terms of water conserva=
tion, range
> restoration, alternative sources of power, etc... private landholders are=
working with
> public agencies and getting more saavy about a lot of things. So we'll se=
e what is possible
> and what is sensible. Deserts are more marginal lands in terms of water a=
nd soil, so
> mistakes have consequences...rapidly .
> On the last visit I saw Cardinals on a Toyon bush. didn't know they came =
so far west.
> beautiful.
> Oh and a final Bear story. I guess the property where I'll be has been in=
the news. a few
> years back avery large black bear wandered up from the river and climbed =
one of the
> two big cottonwoods on the property and wouldn't come down.
>
>
>
Lee Love on sat 5 dec 09
On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 7:31 PM, John Rodgers wrote:
> We had best learn how to be good stewards, and get in step with nature,
> instead of struggling against nature - lest we suffer a similar fate as
> the bacterial colony.
Cyclic thinking, rather than linear thinking.
Understanding, rather than "mastering." And there ain't no free
lunch.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Philip Poburka on sun 6 dec 09
Hi John,
Quite so...
And quite so here in Las Vegas in it's way.
Water was and remains crucial to the life styles of the population here.
Rather, wasting Water, and, wasting the Land and wasting everything, in
every manner possible, and being patronized for it, by others who make mone=
y
for it being patronized, is.
Where once were Artesian Springs, Deer, Ducks, Migrating Birds' dally, clea=
n
Air, clean wholesome Water...now
are the grainy concrete and asphalt malls and other seemingly endless
developments and their in-effect, sterile and deadening over-lay...and
Tap-Water so bad you will get nauseous and dizzy if you drink it.
A few blocks from me, used to be large open Truck Gardens which supplied
fresh produce for the Town in the 1930s through early 1950s...all gone now,
without-a-trace...everything brought in, instead.
Small Orchards, small Vineyards, and Backyard Vegetable Gardens were a
ubiquity here till the 1960s...now, no one I know knows of anyone who has
any sort of Garden or other cultivation.
Anyway...
...sigh...
Here's a little Rob't Crumb vignette that came to mind -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3ym5n-ZZWUs&feature=3Drelated
Generally, the Agricultural value of Northern Hemisphere Soils have been
s-l-o-w-l-y going
downhill since the end of the last Ice Age...and, the manner of commercial
Farming,
especially in the last several generations, as you regard, has vastly
accelerated the decline.
Many vicious circles with this - the Vitality-Vigor of Plants, their
nutritional
value, and accommodation to both having been effected adversely by
increasingly
depleted and badly augmented Soils and other unhappy practices...on and
on...
Anyway...
Love,
Phil
Lv
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Rodgers"
> The story is the same all over. I remember reading of a plantation owner
> in the Carolina's in the early days of this country. He spoke of cotton
> as high as a man on horseback. But the soil is now depleted and will not
> support that kind of growth. Th only way anymore to get sustained yield
> is to add back through chemical fertilizer that which was taken in the
> past. It is a poor substitute and pushes everything out of balance. But
> this kind of cotton is no more. To many mis-adventures by man.
>
> In the early days of explorations naturalists passing through Alabama
> wrote of what is now the Alabama River, and seeing a whitewater wave
> rushing upriver - but as it got closer it could be seen that it was huge
> shoals of fish - and behind them was alligators rushing into feed. But
> no more. To many mis-adventures by man.
>
> In my own experience in 30 years of living in Alaska, in the beginning
> salmon would be so thick in the creeks you cuold walk across on their
> backs practically. But no more. To many mis-adventures by man.
>
> In the plains states thee were great herds of buffalo with grasse to
> support them, but no more. To many misadventures by man.
>
> The slow churning of the land into a morasse of ground that nothing can
> live on continues. We may be STARTING to get the message - we must be
> good stewards of the land. The old principle of "Conquering the
> Wilderness" was fallacy, and we have pretty much lost paradise as a
> consequence.
>
> I am reminded of an early lesson learned when viewing a bacterial colony
> growing in the middle of a petri dish. It grew and grew and grew -
> consuming everything in site, and as it did so, it's own poisons began
> to kill it in the center, but there was still plenty of food - but soon
> enough - it reached the limits of it's environment - all the food was
> consumed, and it's own waste and starvation killed it. A strong lesson.
>
> We had best learn how to be good stewards, and get in step with nature,
> instead of struggling against nature - lest we suffer a similar fate as
> the bacterial colony.
>
> John Rodgers
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