paul gerhold on wed 9 dec 09
Let us try the following as a definition of what constitutes handmade-" A
piece is handmade if the person who conceives the piece physically executes
the piece". A piece conceived by one person and made by another could the=
n
be considered handcrafted.
Paul
Lee Love on wed 9 dec 09
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 12:05 PM, paul gerhold wr=
=3D
ote:
> piece is handmade if the person who conceives the piece physically execut=
=3D
es
> the piece". =3DA0 A piece conceived by one person and made by another cou=
ld=3D
then
> be considered handcrafted.
Paul, depends upon where you live. In Japan, the work that comes out
of a master pottter's kiln, even when partially or wholly fabricated
by apprentices or craftsmen, is considered made by the master potter,
if approved by him.
--=3D20
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
paul gerhold on wed 9 dec 09
Lee,
That is also true in many cases for sculpture artists and glass artists in
the U.S. . But we would not say the work is handmade by Chihuly or Sierra
etc. In Japan would the piece be considered handmade by Hamada for
instance?
Paul
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 1:23 PM, Lee Love wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 12:05 PM, paul gerhold
> wrote:
>
> > piece is handmade if the person who conceives the piece physically
> executes
> > the piece". A piece conceived by one person and made by another could
> then
> > be considered handcrafted.
>
>
> Paul, depends upon where you live. In Japan, the work that comes out
> of a master pottter's kiln, even when partially or wholly fabricated
> by apprentices or craftsmen, is considered made by the master potter,
> if approved by him.
>
>
> --
> --
> Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
> http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
>
> "Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97t=
hat is, =3D
"The
> land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
> within itself." -- John O'Donohue
>
Lee Love on wed 9 dec 09
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 12:35 PM, paul gerhold wr=
=3D
ote:
> Lee,
>
> That is also true in many cases for sculpture artists and glass artists i=
=3D
n
> the U.S. .=3DA0 But we would not say the work is handmade by Chihuly or S=
ie=3D
rra
> etc.=3DA0 In Japan would the piece be considered handmade by Hamada for
> instance?
Chihuly made all the parts and had help assembling, I believe they
would be considered made by him.
Had Shimaoka's kiln, pressmold work was handmade
and usually cost more, because they took more time to create.
There was no distinction between the press mold made or thrown work.
But much attention was given to the final product.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
steve graber on wed 9 dec 09
=3D0A=3D0Aso it's hand=3DC2=3DA0made if you have access and control of=3DC2=
=3DA0the des=3D
truct hammer?=3DC2=3DA0 =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3DC2=3DA0Steve Graber, Graber's Pot=
tery, Inc=3D0ACl=3D
aremont, California USA=3D0AThe Steve Tool - for awesome texture on pots! =
=3D0A=3D
www.graberspottery.com steve@graberspottery.com =3D0A=3D0A=3D0AOn Laguna Cl=
ay's w=3D
ebsite=3D0Ahttp://www.lagunaclay.com/blogs/ =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A----- Origi=
nal Messag=3D
e ----=3D0A> From: Lee Love =3D0A> To: Clayart@LSV.=
CERA=3D
MICS.ORG=3D0A> Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 10:23:00 AM=3D0A> Subject: Re: D=
efin=3D
ition of Handmade=3D0A> =3D0A> On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 12:05 PM, paul gerhol=
d wr=3D
ote:=3D0A> =3D0A> > piece is handmade if the person who conceives the piece=
phy=3D
sically executes=3D0A> > the piece". =3DC2=3DA0 A piece conceived by one pe=
rson a=3D
nd made by another could then=3D0A> > be considered handcrafted.=3D0A> =3D0=
A> =3D0A=3D
> Paul, depends upon where you live.=3DC2=3DA0 In Japan, the work that come=
s ou=3D
t=3D0A> of a master pottter's kiln, even when partially or wholly fabricate=
d=3D
=3D0A> by apprentices or craftsmen, is considered made by the master potter=
,=3D
=3D0A> if approved by him.=3D0A> =3D0A> =3D0A> -- =3D0A> --=3D0A> Lee, a Ma=
shiko potter=3D
in Minneapolis=3D0A> http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/=3D0A> =3D0A> "Ta tIr=
na n-=3D
=3DC3=3DB3g ar chul an tI=3DE2=3D80=3D94tIr dlainn trina ch=3DC3=3DA9ile"=
=3DE2=3D80=3D94that is=3D
, "The=3D0A> land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fl=
ue=3D
nt=3D0A> within itself." -- John O'Donohue=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A
James Freeman on wed 9 dec 09
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 1:43 PM, Lee Love wrote:
>
> Chihuly made all the parts and had help assembling, I believe they
> would be considered made by him.
>
Hi, Lee...
Went to a great Chihuly exhibition a couple of years ago at the Frederick
Meijer Gardens. Part of the exhibition was a biographical documentary. He
does not make any of his pieces. After losing his eye in 1976 and
destroying his shoulder in 1979, Chihuly was no longer able to make any wor=
k
(though he will occasionally alter a piece blown and held by an employee).
He describes himself now as a "choreographer", "supervisor", and "director"=
.
Take care.
...James
James Freeman
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice. I should
not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/clayart/
gayle bair on wed 9 dec 09
Chihuly is blind in one eye and does not blow glass due to a car =3D
accident in1976.
http://www.chihuly.com/essays/news_calver.html
He does draw/paint/squeeze bottle on paper what he envisions. He then =3D
directs and inspires the people/crew around him. His crew is an =3D
extension of himself.
He orchestrated and directs everything as the pieces are being blown, =3D
manipulated, back in the furnace etc. But he does not do the physical =3D
process.
The pieces are his and the prices reflect that but if you are going to =3D
quibble about handmade I'll let you have that discussion with him =3D
directly.
I've been to the Chihuly bridge of glass in Tacoma and it is fabulous, =3D
original and inspiring.
During PBS' pledge time here in WA they play some wonderful =3D
documentaries of him, his hot shop and installations.
What he does with one eye most people cannot do with two.
And he wears the brightest colored pants I've ever seen on a man!
Gayle Bair
Bainbridge Island WA
Tucson AZ
gayle@claybair.com
www.claybair.com
On Dec 9, 2009, at 10:43 AM, Lee Love wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 12:35 PM, paul gerhold =3D
wrote:
>> Lee,
>>=3D20
>> That is also true in many cases for sculpture artists and glass =3D
artists in
>> the U.S. . But we would not say the work is handmade by Chihuly or =3D
Sierra
>> etc. In Japan would the piece be considered handmade by Hamada for
>> instance?
>=3D20
> Chihuly made all the parts and had help assembling, I believe they
> would be considered made by him.
>=3D20
> Had Shimaoka's kiln, pressmold work was handmade
> and usually cost more, because they took more time to create.
> There was no distinction between the press mold made or thrown work.
> But much attention was given to the final product.
>=3D20
>=3D20
> --
> Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
> http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
>=3D20
> "Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97th=
at =3D
is, "The
> land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
> within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Lee Love on wed 9 dec 09
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 3:01 PM, steve graber wrote:
>
>
> so it's hand=3DA0made if you have access and control of=3DA0the destruct =
hamm=3D
er?
No. I don't think handmade anoints anything in the first
place. What we were talking about in this instance, is something
made by an assistant under guidance of the artist, being recognized as
the work of the master potter.
Related to using a mold as a tool vs. a wheel: I make
square bottles in homage to the press mold bottles that the Shokunin
made who I sat next to during my 3 year apprenticeship. I don't
use molds. I throw a cylinder, paddle it square and then use a rib to
make the for surfaces pretty square. I don't believe it is any more
valid an object as the original kokubin. you can see a photo here:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3D3D3569339&l=3D3Db7b81fffc7&id=3D3D5=
507270=3D
56
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
magzz on wed 9 dec 09
Anybody out there familiar with the Arts and Crafts Movement in the early
1900's...?
a response to the Industrial revolution.
resulted in Craftsfirms... designer/artist managing the craftsmen.
better than a factory.
http://TurtleIslandPottery.com
Maggie and Freeman Jones
828.669.2713 home/studio (call here 1st)
828.337.0992 gallery in Old Fort (open most saturdays)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 14:51:07 -0800 gayle bair
writes:
> Chihuly is blind in one eye and does not blow glass due to a car
> accident in1976.
> http://www.chihuly.com/essays/news_calver.html
> He does draw/paint/squeeze bottle on paper what he envisions. He
> then directs and inspires the people/crew around him. His crew is an
> extension of himself.
> He orchestrated and directs everything as the pieces are being
> blown, manipulated, back in the furnace etc. But he does not do the
> physical process.
>
> The pieces are his and the prices reflect that but if you are going
> to quibble about handmade I'll let you have that discussion with him
> directly.
> I've been to the Chihuly bridge of glass in Tacoma and it is
> fabulous, original and inspiring.
> During PBS' pledge time here in WA they play some wonderful
> documentaries of him, his hot shop and installations.
> What he does with one eye most people cannot do with two.
> And he wears the brightest colored pants I've ever seen on a man!
>
>
> Gayle Bair
> Bainbridge Island WA
> Tucson AZ
> gayle@claybair.com
> www.claybair.com
>
>
> On Dec 9, 2009, at 10:43 AM, Lee Love wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 12:35 PM, paul gerhold
> wrote:
> >> Lee,
> >>
> >> That is also true in many cases for sculpture artists and glass
> artists in
> >> the U.S. . But we would not say the work is handmade by Chihuly
> or Sierra
> >> etc. In Japan would the piece be considered handmade by Hamada
> for
> >> instance?
> >
> > Chihuly made all the parts and had help assembling, I believe
> they
> > would be considered made by him.
> >
> > Had Shimaoka's kiln, pressmold work was
> handmade
> > and usually cost more, because they took more time to create.
> > There was no distinction between the press mold made or thrown
> work.
> > But much attention was given to the final product.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
> > http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
> >
> > "Ta tIr na n-=F3g ar chul an tI-tIr dlainn trina ch=E9ile"-that is,
> "The
> > land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land
> fluent
> > within itself." -- John O'Donohue
>
____________________________________________________________
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James Freeman on wed 9 dec 09
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 5:51 PM, gayle bair wrote:
The pieces are his and the prices reflect that but if you are going to
quibble about handmade I'll let you have that discussion with him directly.
Hi, Gail...
Chihuly's work is certainly handmade, just not by him. I don't think anyon=
e
would argue otherwise. He claims it as "his work" because he designed and
directed the manufacture of the piece. I don't think he claims to have mad=
e
it, just as Jeff Koons does not claim to have made his aluminum balloon
animals or steel bunnies.
The small, inexpensive pieces that come out of his shop (if one can call a
$5500, 6 inch bowl inexpensive) are not his work at all, even though they
are based on forms he did, in fact, design, and he does not sign them. The=
y
are generically signed "Chihuly Studio", which is all he can honestly say.
Take care.
...James
James Freeman
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice. I should
not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/clayart/
Lee Love on wed 9 dec 09
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 8:31 PM, James Freeman
wrote:
> The small, inexpensive pieces that come out of his shop (if one can call =
=3D
a
> $5500, 6 inch bowl inexpensive) are not his work at all, even though they
> are based on forms he did, in fact, design, and he does not sign them. =
=3D
=3DA0They
> are generically signed "Chihuly Studio", which is all he can honestly say=
=3D
.
In Japan, there is often one line that is the Master Potter's
work, and then other work that is Kiln work. At my teacher's kiln,
his personally stamped work, which was both made by him and his
apprentices and craftsmen, were made of iron bearing clay. The work
made of ko-shigaraki clay, was only formed by him. The kiln work
was made of standard Mashiko nami clay, sometimes slipped in ocher
slip, and never stamped. A stamped kokubin would sell for
$6,000.00 while a kiln kokubin (sometimes decorated by him) sold for
about $150.00 I am not certain, but I think he made the kiln work
in limited quantities, so there would be a few affordable pieces.
While I was there, he made very few kiln pieces. The only ones I saw
fired and sold were my and the two Japanese apprentices that started
right after me, first yunomi. Those sold for about $22.00. A
stamped one sold for about $350.00
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Jess McKenzie on thu 10 dec 09
The Glass Museum, in Tacoma, WA is about 100 miles
south of the Olympic Peninsula. We visited there
yesterday. If you live as close to Tacoma as we do,
you should go!
Our favorites were "animals" designed by children.
They submitted drawings, and Chihuly's people made
the pieces. We were told that a few kids actually
directed the work at the "Hot Shop." We insist the
kids receive credit for those pieces--they could not
have been made by grownups alone.
Also at the museum yesterday: A huge collection of
works by the Native Alaskan artist, Preston
Singleterry. Truly cool pieces, designed and made by
the artist.
Down the block, we found the Tacoma Museum of Art and
excellent works by Rodin, Mary Cassat, Sargent, and a
bunch of others, including two little ballerinas in
bronze by Degas. We know how those were made--we've
seen the original waxes. Did Degas pour the bronze?
No.
And we mustn't forget to mention one piece by Voulkos
and one by Autio.
Go! You'll be glad you went.
Today, on the way home, we stopped at Clay Art
Center, Tacoma, to pick up almost a half ton of OH-6,
and lots of glaze components. If we're lucky enough-
-skilled enough--to make from those materials
something worth a critic's eye, we'd like the credit.
Or the blame.
~joan and jess in Sequim
...................................
James Freeman wrote:
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 5:51 PM, gayle bair
wrote:
The pieces are his and the prices reflect that but if
you are going to quibble about handmade I'll let you
have that discussion with him directly.
Hi, Gail...
Chihuly's work is certainly handmade, just not by
him. I don't think anyone would argue otherwise. He
claims it as "his work" because he designed and
directed the manufacture of the piece. I don't think
he claims to have made it, just as Jeff Koons does
not claim to have made his aluminum balloon animals
or steel bunnies.
The small, inexpensive pieces that come out of his
shop (if one can call a $5500, 6 inch bowl
inexpensive) are not his work at all, even though
they are based on forms he did, in fact, design, and
he does not sign them. They are generically signed
"Chihuly Studio", which is all he can honestly say.
Take care.
...James
James Freeman
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way
of advice. I
should not speak so boldly if it were my due to be
believed." -Michel
de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/clayart/
Randall Moody on thu 10 dec 09
This isn't about "anointing" or "elitism". This is about applying a =3D
proper
definition and standard. It really doesn't matter in the definition of
handmade whether the piece is made by the master potter or his =3D
apprentice or
even the janitor.=3D20
If a piece is presented as handmade then it should meet the criteria of
being made by hand. JMHO
--Randall in Atlanta--
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Lee Love
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 9:06 PM
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Definition of Handmade
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 3:01 PM, steve graber wrote:
>
>
> so it's hand=3DA0made if you have access and control of=3DA0the destruct =
=3D
hammer?
No. I don't think handmade anoints anything in the first
place. =3D20
Lee Love on thu 10 dec 09
On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 7:42 AM, Randall Moody wr=
=3D
ote:
> If a piece is presented as handmade then it should meet the criteria of
> being made by hand. JMHO
The press mold kokubin you compared to Aunt Bea's work, is
definitely hand made.
When we dogmatically quibble about angles on a pinhead, we
loose sight of the real work.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Randall Moody on thu 10 dec 09
Then Aunt Bea's work is just as handmade and that stryofoam cup at the =3D
local
Quikie Mart is also. It isn't dogmatic to have standards or proper
definitions.=3D20
-----Original Message-----
From: togeika@claycraft.org [mailto:togeika@claycraft.org] On Behalf Of =3D
Lee
Love
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 9:06 AM
To: Randall Moody
Cc: Clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
Subject: Re: Definition of Handmade
On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 7:42 AM, Randall Moody
wrote:
> If a piece is presented as handmade then it should meet the criteria =3D
of
> being made by hand. JMHO
The press mold kokubin you compared to Aunt Bea's work, is
definitely hand made.
When we dogmatically quibble about angles on a pinhead, we
loose sight of the real work.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, =3D
"The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Lee on thu 10 dec 09
On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 8:08 AM, Randall Moody wr=
ote:
> Then Aunt Bea's work
The neriage kokubin takes more handwork than any thrown pot. The
slabs of dark and light clay are cut multiple times. Making the
final pot by pressing the checked slabs into a press mold helps make
the separate contrasting checkers bond strongly. Then after the form
is taken out of the mold, it is finished and then textured with rope
impression and scrapped to reveal the neriage and the contrasting
inlay that was placed over it. After the glaze firing, it is fired
again, after enamel decoration. It is priced higher that a
comparable thrown work, because all the extra hand work takes more
time.
The neriage kocubin and my homage to it (thrown and altered.) The
bottle that began thrown has no innate superiority over the neriage
bottle.
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/2009/12/kokubin-and-thrown-and-altered-squar=
ed.html
As I said previously, molds can provide the pieces we use
in our handmaking. If the post mold handwork is evident, then it is
hand made. In this case, the mold provides the same thing as a board
given to a sculptor.
I am afraid, when we get religiously dogmatic about creative
things, we unable to recognize the right tool for the right job.
--
Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
"The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a
faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant
and has forgotten the gift." -- Albert Einstein
KATHI LESUEUR on thu 10 dec 09
On Dec 10, 2009, at 8:42 AM, Randall Moody wrote:
> This isn't about "anointing" or "elitism". This is about applying a
> proper
> definition and standard. It really doesn't matter in the definition of
> handmade whether the piece is made by the master potter or his
> apprentice or
> even the janitor.
> If a piece is presented as handmade then it should meet the
> criteria of
> being made by hand. JMHO
>
>
And that is the problem, Randall. What is the criteria? Is it your
criteria, my criteria, Vince's criteria? For each of us the answers
seem straightforward and logical. We wonder why others can see the
logic and disagree. In Ann Arbor there is a tile company. They call
their tiles "handmade" even though they are initial made with a RAM
press. I don't disagree. There are over thirty steps involved in
making these tiles and only one is a "technological assist". They are
beautiful tiles. Each has slight variations from finishing and
glazing. I wish I could afford them. They meet MY definition of
handmade but maybe not yours or Vince's.
KATHI LESUEUR
http://www.lesueurclaywork.com
> -
Fuzzy Chef on thu 10 dec 09
On 12/10/09 5:42 AM, Randall Moody wrote:
> This isn't about "anointing" or "elitism". This is about applying a prope=
r
> definition and standard. It really doesn't matter in the definition of
> handmade whether the piece is made by the master potter or his apprentice=
or
> even the janitor.
> If a piece is presented as handmade then it should meet the criteria of
> being made by hand. JMHO
I just don't think it's that clear-cut. People want to deal with
"handmade" like it's an on/off switch; either handmade or not, just like
people would like the world to be divided into "good" and "evil" with
nothing in-between. But the real world doesn't work that way.
Some things are definitely more handmade than others; if I dug up
natural clay, processed it myself, coiled it on a turntable I built
myself, did impressed decorations with stamps I carved, and pit-fired it
in a pit I and other artists dug, that would be about the "most
handmade" you can get. A "regular pot", made with commercially
purchased clay and glazes on an electric wheel and fired in an automated
kiln is somewhat less handmade. A jiggered plate is slightly less
handmade than that. And a molded pot from a self-made mold is even less
handmade.
You don't get to "0% handmade" though, until you get to the machine-made
plates they sell at Ikea.
Some folks would like to say that cast ware isn't handmade at all, but
what if I cast something, and while it's leather-hard, alter it? Is it
handmade then, or not? Why? How big does the alteration have to be?
How fine are we going to split hairs?
So, IMHO, "handmade" isn't an either-or; it's more like the Kinsey scale.
--Fuzzy
steve graber on thu 10 dec 09
maybe it's like a "home cooked" meal.=3DA0 comfort food, done at home with =
lo=3D
ve and affection even if from a simple box meal and add your own browned gr=
=3D
ound beef and mac & cheese.=3DA0 =3D0A=3D0Amanufacturers are certainly usin=
g the =3D
term trying to detach themselves from the mass produced china products.=3DA=
0 =3D
the general public might know and understand that element.=3DA0 =3D0A=3D0Ai=
am pl=3D
eased to see now simply better made castware.=3DA0=3DA0not too many years a=
go m=3D
anufactured pottery (for food as well as planters) were all shaped and styl=
=3D
ed for mass production.=3DA0 ~ pretty blah.=3DA0 now we see more classy sha=
pes =3D
mass produced.=3DA0 in the long run this copying of better shapes and style=
s =3D
should make customers identify with the better made "hand produced" product=
=3D
s from the regular potter.=3DA0 =3D0A=3D0Awalking thru=3DA0Pottery Barn the=
other d=3D
ay ~ that place that doesn't sell pottery ~ i was struck with a question of=
=3D
WHY doesn't a store like that dedicate simply a few racks of truly good po=
=3D
ttery?=3DA0 if only to help show the customer what "real" pottery is and ca=
n =3D
look like?=3DA0 =3D0A=3D0Athat's just too much to ask for.....=3DA0 they go=
t their =3D
plug from the Sienfeild show and don't need to take off their hat to what "=
=3D
real" pottery is...=3DA0 =3D0A=3DA0Steve Graber, Graber's Pottery, Inc=3D0A=
Claremon=3D
t, California USA=3D0AThe Steve Tool - for awesome texture on pots! =3D0Aww=
w.gr=3D
aberspottery.com steve@graberspottery.com =3D0A=3D0A=3D0AOn Laguna Clay's w=
ebsite=3D
=3D0Ahttp://www.lagunaclay.com/blogs/ =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A----- Original Me=
ssage ----=3D
=3D0A> From: KATHI LESUEUR =3D0A> To: Clayart@LS=
V.CE=3D
RAMICS.ORG=3D0A> Sent: Thu, December 10, 2009 8:39:33 AM=3D0A> Subject: Re:=
Def=3D
inition of Handmade=3D0A> =3D0A> On Dec 10, 2009, at 8:42 AM, Randall Moody=
wro=3D
te:=3D0A> =3D0A> > This isn't about "anointing" or "elitism". This is about=
app=3D
lying a=3D0A> > proper=3D0A> > definition and standard. It really doesn't m=
atte=3D
r in the definition of=3D0A> > handmade whether the piece is made by the ma=
st=3D
er potter or his=3D0A> > apprentice or=3D0A> > even the janitor.=3D0A> > If=
a pie=3D
ce is presented as handmade then it should meet the=3D0A> > criteria of=3D0=
A> >=3D
being made by hand. JMHO=3D0A> >=3D0A> >=3D0A> =3D0A> And that is the prob=
lem, Ran=3D
dall. What is the criteria? Is it your=3D0A> criteria, my criteria, Vince's=
c=3D
riteria? For each of us the answers=3D0A> seem straightforward and logical.=
W=3D
e wonder why others can see the=3D0A> logic and disagree.=3DA0 In Ann Arbor=
the=3D
re is a tile company. They call=3D0A> their tiles "handmade" even though th=
ey=3D
are initial made with a RAM=3D0A> press. I don't disagree. There are over =
th=3D
irty steps involved in=3D0A> making these tiles and only one is a "technolo=
gi=3D
cal assist". They are=3D0A> beautiful tiles. Each has slight variations fro=
m =3D
finishing and=3D0A> glazing. I wish I could afford them. They meet MY defin=
it=3D
ion of=3D0A> handmade but maybe not yours or Vince's.=3D0A> =3D0A> KATHI LE=
SUEUR=3D
=3D0A> http://www.lesueurclaywork.com=3D0A> =3D0A> > -=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A
Vince Pitelka on thu 10 dec 09
Josh Berkus wrote:
Some things are definitely more handmade than others; if I dug up
natural clay, processed it myself, coiled it on a turntable I built
myself, did impressed decorations with stamps I carved, and pit-fired it
in a pit I and other artists dug, that would be about the "most
handmade" you can get. A "regular pot", made with commercially
purchased clay and glazes on an electric wheel and fired in an automated
kiln is somewhat less handmade. A jiggered plate is slightly less
handmade than that. And a molded pot from a self-made mold is even less
handmade.
Josh -=3D20
The above doesn't make sense in terms of "relative degrees of handmade." =
=3D
If a potter takes clay, and either wheel-throws or handbuilds a pot, it =
=3D
is clearly handmade, and it makes no difference at all where the clay =3D
comes from, how the pot is fired, or where the turntable or pottery =3D
wheel come from. Those things have nothing to do with whether or not =3D
the piece is handmade. The pot cast from a mold and cleaned up by =3D
scraping the parting line and sponging off the burrs, regardless of who =3D
made the mold or did the cleanup, is not handmade.
- Vince=3D20
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
James Freeman on fri 11 dec 09
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 6:40 PM, Lee Love wrote:
It seems that folks who are not confident in what they do, are overly
concerned with what others do.
Hi, Lee...
You paint with a pretty broad brush. I was wondering what your factual
basis is for this statement. How have you ascertained the level of self
confidence of those who defend the idea that words have meaning? How have
you determined that they are concerned at all, let alone overly, with what
others do (without referring to defense of truthful use of a word or
words). I defended the idea that words have meaning, so am seemingly tarre=
d
with your brush, yet I am pretty darned self-confident, and I do not, unles=
s
it affects me detrimentally, give a rat's tuches what others do. I seem to
fall outside of your categories, so I am wondering if I am more of an
oddball than I had imagined, or if perhaps your statement is a just a
dismissive, gross speculative generalization?
All the best.
...James
James Freeman
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice. I should
not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/clayart/
Barry Porter on fri 11 dec 09
Vince, Vince, Vince,
Two points:
One, you removed all my "winks", now, the quoted part of my post doesn't=3D=
20=3D
read nearly as funny as it did when I wrote it!
Two, share with us your horrible chilldhood experience with the "HANDMADE=
=3D
", it
has left a deep emotional scar! Was it akin to "NO WIRE HANGERS!" or=3D20
something like that?=3D20=3D20
The rest here is pointless, WINK!
everyone else can stop reading here as it would be pointless(wink) for yo=
=3D
u to=3D20
read my reply directly to Vince in his post below.
Porter
OK, stop scrolling down!
I mean it! wink!
On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 19:00:10 -0600, Vince Pitelka =3D2=
0=3D
wrote:
>Barry Porter wrote:
>So, its handmade if you say it is...................We spend way too lar=
=3D
ge a
>
>portion of our lives giving a hoot what other people think in the first
>place as
>it applies to our art. If you sell art, let your customers be the judge=
=3D
as
>they
>are buying the right to judge. Everyone else, just nit-pickin......and =
=3D
its
>pointless.
>
>Barry -
>Honesty is pointless?
UM, what are you talking about Vince? I am nearly always honest, direct=
=3D
,=3D20
and to the point.
>Do you think it is okay to deceive your customers?
Again, unless you have some example of my doing so, I wouldn't know wha=
=3D
t=3D20
it is that you are talking about.
>Do you think it is okay to let them believe something that is not true?=3D=
20=3D
=3D20
UM, another broad statement, I am not in charge of what others believe.=
=3D
I=3D20
am sure that a bunch of them believe that at least one virgin had a baby =
=3D
and=3D20
I am not going to touch that one with a 10,000 foot pole.....
>You will get bit in the butt for that. Unless you are honest with your
>customers about the processes used in the creation of your work, karma w=
=3D
ill
>come back and screw you. That is a sure thing.=3D20=3D20
Vince, do you take your debate cues from the FOX News Network? You=3D20
state what in literature would be called a fallacy and go on with your rh=
=3D
etoric=3D20
as if what you 'stated', actually happened. That is self delusional and =
=3D
self=3D20
aggrandizement, all at the same time on your part.=3D20=3D20=3D20
>Don't call your work handmade unless it is made by your hands from start=
=3D
to=3D20
>finish, and unless there is the expected variation from one piece to the=
=3D
next=3D20
>that is characteristic of handmade work. That's the easy way to identify=
=3D
it.
OH, there wasn't the slightest bit of condescension in that statement, no=
=3D
w=3D20
was there? You assume for some reason that my work isn't handmade, why?
Let me make this clear, my work is handmade. I would also suggest that yo=
=3D
u=3D20
STOP portraying it as anything but, in a public forum. You notice I have=
=3D
not=3D20
said squat about your work?....
Now picture me walking away, looking over my shoulder, and WINKING!
And please, RELAX already.
Porter
>- Vince
>
>Vince Pitelka
>Appalachian Center for Craft
>Tennessee Tech University
>vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
>http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Bruce on fri 11 dec 09
On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 7:47 PM, Vince Pitelka wrote:
de.
>
> Josh -
> The above doesn't make sense in terms of "relative degrees of handmade." =
=3D
=3DA0If a potter takes clay, and either wheel-throws or handbuilds a pot, i=
t =3D
is clearly handmade, and it makes no difference at all where the clay comes=
=3D
from, how the pot is fired, or where the turntable or pottery wheel come f=
=3D
rom. =3DA0Those things have nothing to do with whether or not the piece is =
ha=3D
ndmade. =3DA0The pot cast from a mold and cleaned up by scraping the partin=
g =3D
line and sponging off the burrs, regardless of who made the mold or did the=
=3D
cleanup, is not handmade.
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Craft
> Tennessee Tech University
> vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
>
But are the plates and bowls I'm making by using wooden forms and
slabs hand made? There's always something with yet another subtle
shading of "this is less (or more)" handmade....
... Bruce (who uses commercial clay, mostly commercial glazes, but
kickwheels and rolling pins...)
Randall Moody on fri 11 dec 09
Fine. You all have convinced me. Everything is handmade. Now that we have
made the terms "art" and "handmade" so all encompassing as to be meaningles=
s
can we do away with the terms? After all, what point is it to have a term
that has no true meaning?
--Randall in Atlanta--
Lee Love on fri 11 dec 09
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 4:06 AM, Bruce wrote:
> But are the plates and bowls I'm making by using wooden forms and
> slabs hand made? =3DA0 There's always something with yet another subtle
> shading of "this is less (or more)" handmade....
Bruce, it really depends upon how you use the forms and what you do to
the pieces after the come out of the form.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Lee Love on fri 11 dec 09
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 8:25 AM, Randall Moody wr=
=3D
ote:
> Fine. You all have convinced me. Everything is handmade. Now that we have
> made the terms "art" and "handmade" so all encompassing as to be meaningl=
=3D
ess
> can we do away with the terms? After all, what point is it to have a term
> that has no true meaning?
Randall. Certainly, not all things are handmade. But it is a
mistake to categorize work by the tools that were used in some step of
the process. It all depends on the maker and how he uses those tools
and the final product.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Randall Moody on fri 11 dec 09
Lee you don't get off that easily. We have encompassed the term handmade =
=3D
to
include anything touched by human hands during the making so all things =3D
are
now handmade. You can't broaden the definition only to try to contract =3D
it
later to suit your needs.=3D20
--Randall--
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Lee Love
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 9:56 AM
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Definition of Handmade
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 8:25 AM, Randall Moody
wrote:
> Fine. You all have convinced me. Everything is handmade. Now that we =3D
have
> made the terms "art" and "handmade" so all encompassing as to be
meaningless
> can we do away with the terms? After all, what point is it to have a =3D
term
> that has no true meaning?
Randall. Certainly, not all things are handmade. But it is a
mistake to categorize work by the tools that were used in some step of
the process. It all depends on the maker and how he uses those tools
and the final product.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, =3D
"The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Lee Love on fri 11 dec 09
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Randall Moody w=
=3D
rote:
> Lee you don't get off that easily. We have encompassed the term handmade =
=3D
to
> include anything touched by human hands during the making so all things a=
=3D
re
> now handmade. You can't broaden the definition only to try to contract it
> later to suit your needs.
Randall, You are making up other's definitions in your own
head. It is like what you attempted to do with Bernard Leach, trying
to freeze his thought into something he wrote in 1953. That's the
problem with ridged literalist thinking.
Ask me what I think is handmade and I would be happy to show you.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Seele Robert on fri 11 dec 09
With all the discussion on "Definition of Handmade", I am totally
confused. I wonder if anyone could summarize what "Handmade" means in
10,000 words or less.
bob
Politics is war without bloodshed while war is politics with
bloodshed. Mao Tse-Tung
Lee Love on fri 11 dec 09
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 11:41 AM, Seele Robert wrote:
> With all the discussion on "Definition of Handmade", I am totally
> confused. I wonder if anyone could summarize what "Handmade" means in
> 10,000 words or less.
This is from the wikipedia:
"Handmade means something made by an individual, rather than one made
by mass production. It need not literally mean that no machine at all
is used in making it. "
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Snail Scott on fri 11 dec 09
All this discussion in order to define 'handmade'!
It's easier, though, than defining 'good'. Percentage
of handwork doesn't ever equate to excellence of
product. Handwork is worth something to some
makers, who feels the desire to make things by that
means. It means something to buyers who prefer
the associated attribute of uniqueness, or a sense
of contact with a single producer. It means nothing
to the object, which is good or not by the standards
of its type, not the means of its making.
The virtues often attributed to handcraft are seldom
essential to its definition, nor unique to it. Handcraft
may often be unique, but a person running a CNC
milling machine or 3-D resin fabrication tank can
make one-off objects far more unique than a potter
who cranks out sets of matching coffee mugs by the
hundreds. A handcrafted object may be local and its
purchase may support a local economy and humane,
eco-sensitive means of production, but a huge amount
of (by any definition) handcrafted objects are cranked
out in faraway sweatshops using toxic methods and
shipped thousands of miles to market. A handcrafted
object may be thoughtfully designed, but design has
no part in the definition of handcraft - only execution
is relevant. And a handcrafted object may be better
made than a mass-produced equivalent, but then
again it may not. There's a lot of completely handmade
work out there that is incompetent junk my any standard,
yet handcrafted it remains.
Handmade does have a certain marketing resonance
for reasons noted above. I was at WalMart last week,
and they were selling dinnerware sets stickered
'HANDMADE'! boldly on each piece. Judging from the
description provided, the only handwork involved was
hand-applying the glaze, which produced the touted
'unique variations' in the spotty glaze. They looked
identical to work sold in the past without that sticker.
I can only assume that the company has found a way
to turn a negative (the fact that Chinese sweatshop
labor is still cheaper than machinery) into a selling
point. And apparently it IS a selling point, irregularity
and all, or they wouldn't bother with the (probably
hand-applied) stickers.
I perceive much of the current discussion to be driven
by the need to safeguard that marketing advantage by
calling for a tighter definition of 'handmade' that can't
be met except by your local studio potter, weaver,
glassblower, et al. Excellent work shouldn't require
'handmade' as a marketing slogan, though. If 'handmade'
is all it has to offer, the buyer isn't wrong to keep walking.
-Snail
John Rodgers on fri 11 dec 09
Hmmm!
If handmade varies in degree from 100% to 0%, is there an intrinsic
value that is imparted that follows directly - or inversely? Or does the
whole bloody debate boil down to "in the eye of the beholder"? It would
seem so.
John Rodgers
Clayartist and Moldmaker
88'GL VW Bus Driver
Chelsea, AL
Http://www.moldhaus.com
paul gerhold wrote:
> Let us try the following as a definition of what constitutes handmade-" =
A
> piece is handmade if the person who conceives the piece physically execut=
es
> the piece". A piece conceived by one person and made by another could t=
hen
> be considered handcrafted.
> Paul
>
>
>
Barry Porter on fri 11 dec 09
Hey Bob,
Here is the answer....'wink'
If you made it and you say it is handmade, it is handmade, until someone=3D=
20=3D
proves you wrong.
Let them do exactly what you did, go through the entire process!
If they can do it without 'your' hands, then maybe they are right.
Otherwise, they are just nit-pickin.
Its funny, I rarely use the word 'handmade' to describe my work anyway as=
=3D
=3D20
most just assume its handmade. I refer to myself as a cottagecrafter, an=
=3D
=3D20
artisan, and a person that practices Jeffersonian anarchy. (the kind that=
=3D
is=3D20
good every 20 years or so) Maybe the last part there scares folks away fr=
=3D
om=3D20
questioning the handmade part? 'wink'
So, its handmade if you say it is...................We spend way too larg=
=3D
e a=3D20
portion of our lives giving a hoot what other people think in the first p=
=3D
lace as=3D20
it applies to our art. If you sell art, let your customers be the judge =
=3D
as they=3D20
are buying the right to judge. Everyone else, just nit-pickin......and i=
=3D
ts=3D20
pointless. (OH,,,,,, he didn't go n say dat, did he?)
Porter=3D20
(And NO, I didn't really believe that you were confused - WINK!)
On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 11:41:52 -0600, Seele Robert =3D20
wrote:
>With all the discussion on "Definition of Handmade", I am totally
>confused. I wonder if anyone could summarize what "Handmade" means in
>10,000 words or less.
>
>bob
>
>
>Politics is war without bloodshed while war is politics with
>bloodshed. Mao Tse-Tung
Jeff Gieringer on fri 11 dec 09
Everything we do is either hand built or thrown and as I stated in a
different conversation, we also extrude some things. But, honestly, I don'=
t
think my banker cares one way or the other whether my pots are handmade or
not, but that I am selling enough pots to pay the mortgage on our studio an=
d
gallery. I love what I do, but also have to pay the bills with what I do.
The debate on what is "handmade" seems to creep around every few months and
the same damn arguments come from the same damn directions everytime. The
funny part is, that many of the people that bitched for two weeks about
Clayart staying on the subject of ceramics, are wasting so much time on a
debate/argument that can never be won. Quite ironic! I personally would
rather read about a good dip recipe for the holidays, but this is only my
opinion and there seems to be plenty of those around here.
Jeff Gieringer
Berea, Kentucky
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seele Robert"
To:
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: Definition of Handmade
> With all the discussion on "Definition of Handmade", I am totally
> confused. I wonder if anyone could summarize what "Handmade" means in
> 10,000 words or less.
>
> bob
>
>
> Politics is war without bloodshed while war is politics with
> bloodshed. Mao Tse-Tung
>
Vince Pitelka on fri 11 dec 09
Bob Seele wrote:
"With all the discussion on "Definition of Handmade", I am totally
confused. I wonder if anyone could summarize what "Handmade" means in
10,000 words or less."
Bob -
Sure, that's easy. "Handmade" means that the work was formed by hand, such
that the form and finish of the work was determined at every stage by the
artist's/artisan's hands or tools controlled by the artist's hands, and suc=
h
that every piece exhibits individual variation in form and finish found onl=
y
in work that is truly formed by the artist's/artisan's own hands.
Keep in mind that the above definition in no way excludes press-molds,
templates, bisque-stamps, pottery wheels, slab-rollers, extruders, pugmills=
,
clay-mixers, commercially-bought clay, or other tools/machines that the
artist/artisan uses to prepare or manipulate her/his clay. As long as the
artist's own hands/fingers determine the form and finish of the piece, with
the inherent risk and variation of hand processes, then the work can be
considered handmade. If the artist relinquishes control of individual form
to assisted technologies that determine form and finish in an exactly
repeatable fashion, then the work is not handmade.
Now, that was a hell of a lot less than 10,000 words.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Lee Love on fri 11 dec 09
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 2:51 PM, Barry Porter w=
=3D
rote:
> So, its handmade if you say it is...................We spend way too larg=
=3D
e a
> portion of our lives giving a hoot what other people think in the first p=
=3D
lace as
> it applies to our art. =3DA0If you sell art, let your customers be the ju=
dg=3D
e as they
> are buying the right to judge. =3DA0Everyone else, just nit-pickin......a=
nd=3D
its
> pointless. (OH,,,,,, he didn't go n say dat, did he?)
You said it!
It seems that folks who are not confident in what they do, are overly
concerned with what others do. Life is way too short!
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Vince Pitelka on fri 11 dec 09
Barry Porter wrote:
So, its handmade if you say it is...................We spend way too large =
a
portion of our lives giving a hoot what other people think in the first
place as
it applies to our art. If you sell art, let your customers be the judge as
they
are buying the right to judge. Everyone else, just nit-pickin......and its
pointless.
Barry -
Honesty is pointless? Do you think it is okay to deceive your customers?
Do you think it is okay to let them believe something that is not true? Yo=
u
will get bit in the butt for that. Unless you are honest with your
customers about the processes used in the creation of your work, karma will
come back and screw you. That is a sure thing. Don't call your work
handmade unless it is made by your hands from start to finish, and unless
there is the expected variation from one piece to the next that is
characteristic of handmade work. That's the easy way to identify it.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Vince Pitelka on fri 11 dec 09
Snail Scott wrote:
"I perceive much of the current discussion to be driven
by the need to safeguard that marketing advantage by
calling for a tighter definition of 'handmade' that can't
be met except by your local studio potter, weaver,
glassblower, et al. Excellent work shouldn't require
'handmade' as a marketing slogan, though. If 'handmade'
is all it has to offer, the buyer isn't wrong to keep walking."
Snail -
I am not concerned with the market advantage. I am concerned with the
integrity of the artist, and the honesty with which they present their work=
.
If that proves to be a market advantage, so be it. I want the term
"handmade" to count for something. If off-shore makers misuse the term, I
can't do anything about that except try to encourage domestic makers to use
the term honestly. "Handmade" doesn't necessarily have anything to do with
excellence, although all excellent fine craft is "handmade." As you say,
there is plenty of crap out there in craft fairs and third-rate galleries
that his handmade. I want to promote a degree of honesty in the use of the
term "handmade," whether or not the work is any good from the standpoint of
design aesthetics. That's not hard to do, because the definition and
meaning is very clear. As I have said repeatedly in this conversation,
either something is handmade by the maker's hands from start-to-finish, or
it is not. That is not difficult to discern.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Vince Pitelka on fri 11 dec 09
Lee Love wrote:
"This is from the wikipedia:
"Handmade means something made by an individual, rather than one made
by mass production. It need not literally mean that no machine at all
is used in making it. "
And your point is?
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
John Rodgers on sat 12 dec 09
OK Vince - we all know that on your point of view, you have the tenacity
of a southern mud terrapin which will not let go until the sun sets and
it thunders - both at the same time!!
But I still disagree with some of the details of your definition.
My way:
Scenario #1....
Remove clay from Bag (hand)
Weigh the clay (hand and tool)
Wedge the clay (hand and tool - wedging table and cut wire)
Slam the clay on the wheel (tool)
Throw - (form or shape using wood tools)
Trim w/tools
Sign w/tool
Load kiln
Bisque fire (Kiln tool)
Unload Kiln
Wax (frying pan w/wax - tool)
Glaze dip (dipping tongs - tool)
Wipe excess glaze (sponge -tool)
Load Kiln
Glaze Fire (kiln tool)
Unload Kiln
Set on shelf.
I may have missed something in my analysis - but hopefully not much..
Scenario #2
Draw image of form (hand work)
Create Line Profile( tool - pen or computer)
Scale (drawing or computer)
Select Carving Medium (wax or wood)
Carve/Turn 3-D Model - (lathe and hand tools)
Make mold (tool) ( hand tools required)
Melt Carving Wax (Wax pot and hotplate)
Cast Wax (hands using tools)
Open mold (hands)
Cut wax cast into appropriate pieces (hand tools)
Make molds of pieces (tools) (hands and hand tools)
Mix slip clay (machinery)
Weigh, adjust ( use scale, and other tools)
Drain to bucket - transport and pour into molds (screen and bucket -
hand tools)
Drain multiple molds of pieces of single model (hand work)
Remove mold bands (hand work)
Open Molds (hand work)
Remove clay forms (hand work)
Assemble multiple parts to a single form (hand work)
Add additional hand, sprig mold formed parts - pulled handles, pressed
leaves, feet, etc, (hand work)
Chase and clean (hand work using tools)
Sign (hand work)
Load Kiln
Bisque fire
Unload Kiln
Wax
Glaze dip - (dipping tool)
Glaze fire
Unload
Place on shelf.
Note - I consider a mold to be a tool to shape clay - same as any other
shaping tool
***********
I perform both scenarios in total - so what is not "hand made"?
John Rodgers
Clayartist and Moldmaker
88'GL VW Bus Driver
Chelsea, AL
Http://www.moldhaus.com
Vince Pitelka wrote:
> Barry Porter wrote:
> So, its handmade if you say it is...................We spend way too larg=
e a
>
> portion of our lives giving a hoot what other people think in the first
> place as
> it applies to our art. If you sell art, let your customers be the judge =
as
> they
> are buying the right to judge. Everyone else, just nit-pickin......and i=
ts
> pointless.
>
> Barry -
> Honesty is pointless? Do you think it is okay to deceive your customers?
> Do you think it is okay to let them believe something that is not true? =
You
> will get bit in the butt for that. Unless you are honest with your
> customers about the processes used in the creation of your work, karma wi=
ll
> come back and screw you. That is a sure thing. Don't call your work
> handmade unless it is made by your hands from start to finish, and unless
> there is the expected variation from one piece to the next that is
> characteristic of handmade work. That's the easy way to identify it.
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Craft
> Tennessee Tech University
> vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
>
>
>
John Hesselberth on sat 12 dec 09
Hi Everyone,
I've been reading this thread with patient amusement, but I think Snail =3D
has it best figured out. Most of the posts seem to be trying to define =3D
'handmade' in a way the poster can use it to describe his/her work but =3D
others cannot--particularly in a way that Wal-Mart cannot. In other =3D
words as a marketing gimmick.
But as Snail has observed, Wal-Mart has started using the term to =3D
describe work that was surely made in a sweat shop thousands of miles =3D
away. And they are probably using it honestly. So if Wal-Mart has =3D
adopted the term for marketing purposes should we not move on? =3D20
If we are simply looking for a marketing edge over our competitors, how =3D
about 'locally made' or 'one-of-a-kind'. Oh dear, I hope I haven't =3D
extended this thread by starting a definition contest for those terms. =3D
Let's see is 'locally' within 5 or 10 or 50 or 500 miles???? And are =3D
production thrown mugs 'one-of-a-kind'????
I think I'll go throw some 'one-of-a-kind' mugs.
Regards,
John
On Dec 11, 2009, at 5:24 PM, Snail Scott wrote:
> All this discussion in order to define 'handmade'!
>=3D20
> It's easier, though, than defining 'good'. Percentage
> of handwork doesn't ever equate to excellence of
> product. Handwork is worth something to some
> makers, who feels the desire to make things by that
> means. It means something to buyers who prefer
> the associated attribute of uniqueness, or a sense
> of contact with a single producer. It means nothing
> to the object, which is good or not by the standards
> of its type, not the means of its making.
>=3D20
> The virtues often attributed to handcraft are seldom
> essential to its definition, nor unique to it. Handcraft
> may often be unique, but a person running a CNC
> milling machine or 3-D resin fabrication tank can
> make one-off objects far more unique than a potter
> who cranks out sets of matching coffee mugs by the
> hundreds. A handcrafted object may be local and its
> purchase may support a local economy and humane,
> eco-sensitive means of production, but a huge amount
> of (by any definition) handcrafted objects are cranked
> out in faraway sweatshops using toxic methods and
> shipped thousands of miles to market. A handcrafted
> object may be thoughtfully designed, but design has
> no part in the definition of handcraft - only execution
> is relevant. And a handcrafted object may be better
> made than a mass-produced equivalent, but then
> again it may not. There's a lot of completely handmade
> work out there that is incompetent junk my any standard,
> yet handcrafted it remains.
>=3D20
> Handmade does have a certain marketing resonance
> for reasons noted above. I was at WalMart last week,
> and they were selling dinnerware sets stickered
> 'HANDMADE'! boldly on each piece. Judging from the
> description provided, the only handwork involved was
> hand-applying the glaze, which produced the touted
> 'unique variations' in the spotty glaze. They looked
> identical to work sold in the past without that sticker.
> I can only assume that the company has found a way
> to turn a negative (the fact that Chinese sweatshop
> labor is still cheaper than machinery) into a selling
> point. And apparently it IS a selling point, irregularity
> and all, or they wouldn't bother with the (probably
> hand-applied) stickers.
>=3D20
> I perceive much of the current discussion to be driven
> by the need to safeguard that marketing advantage by
> calling for a tighter definition of 'handmade' that can't
> be met except by your local studio potter, weaver,
> glassblower, et al. Excellent work shouldn't require
> 'handmade' as a marketing slogan, though. If 'handmade'
> is all it has to offer, the buyer isn't wrong to keep walking.
>=3D20
> -Snail
Lee Love on sat 12 dec 09
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 10:18 PM, James Freeman
wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 6:40 PM, Lee Love wrote:
>
> =3DA0It seems that folks who are not confident in what they do, are overl=
y
> concerned with what others do.
>
>
>
> Hi, Lee...
>
> You paint with a pretty broad brush.
I know, the other aspect is the academic. Angels on a pinhead
discussion. Doesn't have much relevance to a working potter.
But dogmatic thinking is threatened by gray areas and
demands black and white answers. The most important questions
cannot be answered that way.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Lee Love on sat 12 dec 09
On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 6:33 AM, John Hesselberth
wrote:
> If we are simply looking for a marketing edge over our competitors, how >=
=3D
about 'locally made' or 'one-of-a-kind'. Oh dear, I hope I haven't extended
>this thread by starting a definition contest for those terms. Let's see is
>'locally' within 5 or 10 or 50 or 500 miles????
The internet has certainly blurred the definition of community.
>And are production thrown mugs 'one-of-a-kind'????
As I mentioned previously, a high level of skill can
duplicate machine regularity.
As a Mashiko gallery owner once told me: "The shokunin's gift
is the ability to copy something exactly, after seeing the example one
time. Maybe the deshi's gift, is the ability to make something
completely new."
shokunin =3D3D master craftsman who works for the artist
deshi =3D3D apprentice who will become an independent studio artist.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
James Freeman on sat 12 dec 09
On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 10:11 AM, Lee Love wrote:
I know, the other aspect is the academic. Angels on a pinhead
discussion. Doesn't have much relevance to a working potter.
Working potters don't think about bigger things? I know a couple who do, s=
o
I'll have a talk with them and set them straight. No more deeper thought
for working potters. Come to think of it, you are ostensibly a working
potter, yet you have contributed many, many, many posts to this thread. I
guess I must insist that you stop thinking about this irrelevant topic too.
Also, "Angels on a Pinhead" refers to discussion of meaningless topics with
no possible application to life. This topic seemed quite relevant to my
life before I accepted your pronouncement that it was not, so I thank you
for setting me straight. Can you please tell me where you found the
authoritative list of irrelevant, academic topics? I would like to obtain =
a
copy of this list so that I may avoid thinking about such topics in the
future? Also, who authored this list? I'd like to know what credentials
qualified them to make this decision for others.
But dogmatic thinking is threatened by gray areas and
demands black and white answers. The most important questions
cannot be answered that way.
This smells like another of those dreaded broad-brush, dismissive, gross
speculative generalizations. Can you please tell me what the most importan=
t
questions are, and also please provide a primary proof source? Also, can
you please provide a logical proof of your theorem that such questions have
no black and white answers? I tried to come up with a proof of your theore=
m
myself, but failed. I keep coming back to the proposition that if you
cannot answer a question, you cannot logically say there is no answer, but
only that you haven't thought well enough and hard enough to find that
elusive answer. Just giving up on trying, and justifying that surrender by
saying "Grey area" seems to be an ignoble path.
Thanks for any help and direction you can provide.
All the best.
...James
James Freeman
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice. I should
not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/clayart/
Lee Love on sat 12 dec 09
On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 10:58 AM, James Freeman
wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 10:11 AM, Lee Love wrote=
=3D
:
>
> =3DA0 =3DA0I know, the other aspect is the academic. =3DA0 Angels on a pi=
nhead
> discussion. =3DA0 Doesn't have much relevance to a working potter.
>
>
> Working potters don't think about bigger things?
They don't quibble about them.
Most things related to practical life cannot be painted
with the broad brush of black and white.
For the creative person, questions are far more important than
answers. When you have all the answers, the work become self
referential and boring.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
James Freeman on sat 12 dec 09
On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Lee Love wrote:
> >
> > Working potters don't think about bigger things?
>
> They don't quibble about them.
>
Again, you are ostensibly a working potter, yet you are quibbling about
this. How did you get an exemption from your rule? I would like to apply
for an exemption too, so that I may continue to think about, study, and
discuss the Forbidden Subjects. What is the procedure?
> Most things related to practical life cannot be painted
> with the broad brush of black and white.
>
This assertion sounds curiously like a broad brush, black and white
pronouncement. Again, on what data do you base such an broad statement?
This seems to be a simple restatement of your unproven theorem, so I will
simply restate my unanswered question:
"Also, can you please provide a logical proof of your theorem that such
questions have no black and white answers? I tried to come up with a proof
of your theorem myself, but failed. I keep coming back to the proposition
that if you cannot answer a question, you cannot logically say there is no
answer, but only that you haven't thought well enough and hard enough to
find that elusive answer. Just giving up on trying, and justifying that
surrender by saying "Grey area" seems to be an ignoble path."
> For the creative person, questions are far more important than
> answers.
>
Another broad brush pronouncement. I had always believed, until now, that
coming up with an answer was the most important thing, since it means that
you have learned something or have grown, and that having questions that on=
e
could not answer meant that one's learning was insufficient, one's thought
processes were inefficient, or that one simply hadn't applied oneself
adequately to the problem. Thank you for letting me see that quite the
opposite is true: Having questions that you do not know the answer to mean=
s
that you are smarter than the guy who does know the answers to those
questions. And to think that all of my teachers have had it so wrong. The=
y
kept giving me good grades when I knew the answers to the questions, but ba=
d
grades when I did not know the answers! How foolish!
When you have all the answers, the work become self
> referential and boring.
>
>
>
Another broad brush pronouncement. On what possible basis does this
statement rest? I had always believed that knowing what you are doing and
where you are going allows one's work to progress quickly and forcefully,
while not knowing the answers would leave one foundering and lost, just
thrashing about blindly while searching for a path, and repeating the same
mistakes until you do, in fact, learn the answer. I also believed that
knowing lots of things opens up broad new vistas of possibility that are
completely invisible to those who do not know such things. You tell me now
that quite the contrary is true: The less you know, the better and more
exciting your work becomes. I simply cannot wrap my head around this
concept, which seems to fly in the face of reason. Your proclamation also
leaves me quite worried. As we tend to learn more and more answers the
longer we live and study, it seems that we are now doomed to watch the meri=
t
of our work inevitably decline as we age, grow, and progress mentally. The
longer I live and study, the more answers I will have, but the more answers
I have, the more self-referential and boring my work becomes! And here I
was, studying, practicing, and learning answers to try to better myself, an=
d
you now tell me that this was nothing but self-immolation! My
weltanschauung has been shattered, and I see now that I have wasted so much
time and effort. Thank you for setting me straight.
I am also left wondering how painting the same blades of grass 50,000 times
is not self-referential, but I am much too tired to try to get my head
around that thorny issue.
Take care.
...James
James Freeman
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice. I should
not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/clayart/
ivor & olive lewis on sun 13 dec 09
Dear John Hesselberth,
" 'one-of-a-kind' "
Why not "Prototype" ?
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis,
Redhill,
South Australia
Bruce on sun 13 dec 09
Even better! Every software engineer (and many hardware engineers)
will tell you there's nothing that's longer lasting than a
prototype... especially one thats "never designed to go into
production".....
... Bruce
On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 12:55 AM, ivor & olive lewis
wrote:
> Dear John Hesselberth,
>
> " 'one-of-a-kind' "
>
> Why not "Prototype" ?
>
>
Snail Scott on sun 13 dec 09
On Dec 12, 2009, at 6:33 AM, John Hesselberth wrote:
> And are production thrown mugs 'one-of-a-kind'?
How about 'some-of-a-kind'? ;)
-Snail
Vince Pitelka on sun 13 dec 09
John Hesselberth wrote:
"And are production thrown mugs 'one-of-a-kind'?"
Technically, yes, precisely because they are individually made by hand, one
at a time, and thus display slight variations, regardless of the potter's
skill. We do not call them "one of a kind," because we reserve that term
for work that is not part of a set or a matching design, but no two pieces
made by a production potter are absolutely identical, specifically because
they are individually made by hand. When you get into the discussion of
"handmade" it does become a technicality, but a very important one.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
KATHI LESUEUR on sun 13 dec 09
On Dec 13, 2009, at 11:07 AM, Vince Pitelka wrote:
> John Hesselberth wrote:
> "And are production thrown mugs 'one-of-a-kind'?"
>
> Technically, yes, precisely because they are individually made by
> hand, one
> at a time, and thus display slight variations, regardless of the
> potter's
> skill. We do not call them "one of a kind," because we reserve
> that term
> for work that is not part of a set or a matching design, but no two
> pieces
> made by a production potter are absolutely identical, specifically
> because
> they are individually made by hand. When you get into the
> discussion of
> "handmade" it does become a technicality, but a very important one.
Not to open a can of worms here, but hell, why not? Anyone who has
ever RAM pressed knows that there are slight variations in each
piece. Molds are far from perfect no matter who makes them. My low
bowl mold always wanted to blow out one side of the pressing.
Thickness can be varied by the person running the press. And, hand
finishing definitely makes each piece have as much variation as in my
production mugs. What you can do with a press far better than any
other method is to make lots of seconds really fast. Just ask Karim
at Motawi Tileworks about it. There's a reason that they have a
seconds sale every year. When I pressed I spend five times as long
finishing a simple piece than I did pressing it. And, the pieces that
I did lots of alterations on took far longer. Were they handmade? Who
the hell knows. To me they were to you, perhaps not.
KATHI LESUEUR
http://www.lesueurclaywork.com
Vince Pitelka on sun 13 dec 09
Kathi LeSueur wrote:
"Not to open a can of worms here, but hell, why not? Anyone who has ever RA=
M
pressed knows that there are slight variations in each piece. Molds are far
from perfect no matter who makes them."
Kathi -
It seems that I am among a small group of people on this list who want the
term "handmade" to really count for something specific. This discussion ha=
s
probably run its course, and I stand by the definitions or parameters I hav=
e
espoused. I am proud to teach in a facility where we do not incorporate
assisted technology production processes, but I certainly have nothing
against artists who incorporate those processes in their own studio
production, as long as the customer is aware of the processes used. Some
people on this list have said that their customers do not care how the work
was made, and while I am sure that there are some who do not care,
especially if they get a better price because of the production processes
used, I do keep up with the contemporary craft market, and I know very well
that there are plenty of discerning fans of fine craft who care very much,
and would feel cheated if they bought a ceramic piece claiming to be
handmade, and then found out that it had been slip-cast or ram-pressed.
In my own situation, I know that many ceramics programs in academia teach
slip-casting, usually as a means of making component parts for sculpture. =
I
also know that many of them have abandoned the potter's wheels and often an=
y
reference to the vessel as a utilitarian form. They are training conceptual
artists, and how much demand is there really for conceptual artists in
contemporary society?
Specifically in response to these widespread changes in academia, at the
Appalachian Center for Craft (Tennessee Tech University) we are proud to
teach "traditional craft materials and processes in a contemporary context,=
"
as is stated in our mission statement. Controlling materials and processes
with the artist's own hands throughout the evolution of a piece from start
to finish is an extremely important part of our whole philosophy. The
artist is either manipulating the materials directly with her/his hands, or
is carefully controlling a machine or tool that is manipulating the materia=
l
in a way that is constantly dependent on the artist's manual skills, with n=
o
built-in size or shape as is integral to slip-casting and ram-pressing. Th=
e
variations in ram-pressed pieces that Kathi mentions above are the fault of
a machinery process and have nothing to do with the kind of variations
inherent in handmade work.
I have tried to be as clear as I can in explaining the definitions and
parameters of "handmade" as I understand them and as I have always taught
them. As I see it there's no fuzzy area, no reason for careless
interpretation, because it really is a matter of simple definitions that ar=
e
easy to understand and implement. I never said that I am opposed to
slip-casting or ram-pressing, because I am not. I think that assisted
technology processes are ingenious, and are completely appropriate for
studio artists who want to make the leap to cottage-industry-scale
production, as long as they are absolutely truthful with their customers
about the means of production. I know that Kathi and plenty of other studi=
o
artists using assisted technologies are completely open about their methods=
,
but it does concern me that there seem to be quite a few other people on
this list who have no problem tweaking the meaning of "handmade" to suit
their own needs. So be it. I don't see any point in repeating the same
things over and over again, so we should probably move on, as Mel suggested=
.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
KATHI LESUEUR on mon 14 dec 09
On Dec 13, 2009, at 5:14 PM, Vince Pitelka wrote:
>
>
>
> I know that Kathi and plenty of other studio
> artists using assisted technologies are completely open about their
> methods,
> but it does concern me that there seem to be quite a few other
> people on
> this list who have no problem tweaking the meaning of "handmade" to
> suit
> their own needs. >>
Just to be clear, I no longer press anything. I tried it and found
that it wasn't for me. I was lucky to be able to lease a press for a
while to try it out. But, in the end it just made no sense in a small
one person studio with limited kiln space.
Kathi
Vince Pitelka on tue 15 dec 09
John Rodgers wrote:
My perception of the issue has changed somewhat during the debate and is
now I suspect much more severe at this point than your own view - but
I think I am right, after weighing all the arguments.
To be truly handmade- an object - pot or whatever - MUST be created
ONLY with the hands, and nothing more. The instant any contrivance is
applied to assist the hands - be it a stick, rib, potters wheel, jigger,
whatever - the definition is lost, and then the object becomes one
crafted by hand or "handcrafted".
John -
I can't tell whether this is tongue in cheek, but I think it must be. It i=
s
hard to believe that you are serious, because there is no rational basis fo=
r
this concept. Your definition above does not coincide with any accepted
definition of handmade, past or present. So, clearly the above is a joke.
That's a relief. Thanks for the chuckle.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
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