Maggie Furtak on mon 14 dec 09
I don't care about handmade vs. machinemade. =3DA0I care about truth in adv=
er=3D
tising. =3DA0Not misleading the customer about the process. =3DA0And I care=
abo=3D
ut charging a reasonable price for the amount of work involved. =3DA0
On =3DA0the first point: =3DA0I sell through a gift shop that currently car=
ries=3D
a line of mass-produced-in-China pottery that looks handmade to the untrai=
=3D
ned eye. =3DA0It is mold made. =3DA0The originals for the molds had exagger=
ated=3D
throwing rings added, and the thrown pieces were all bumped and dinged out=
=3D
of round here and there. =3DA0We all know that it is very easy to throw a =
pe=3D
rfectly smooth and perfectly round and centered pot. =3DA0I certainly notic=
e =3D
that the dings and bumps and throwing rings are identical on each piece, an=
=3D
d that they are, therefor made in a mold. =3DA0The average customer, howeve=
r,=3D
assumes that they are getting something handmade. =3DA0It has "imperfectio=
ns=3D
" that show "the hand of the maker." =3DA0It must be handmade! =3DA0The nam=
e of=3D
the pottery line also encourages this assumption. =3DA0The official name o=
n =3D
the little stickers on the bottom is "Blah-dee-blah by Jane Doe." =3DA0Make=
s =3D
you think by buying a piece, you are supporting Jane Doe, skilled potter. =
=3D
=3DA0Jane
Doe is an international company that has outsourced production to China. =
=3D
=3DA0The pottery is beautifully designed, affordably priced, and high quali=
ty=3D
. =3DA0No where does it actually claim to be handmade, but it still irks th=
e =3D
heck out of me. =3DA0
Point two: I don't care if it's handmade or not, I care if it is appropriat=
=3D
ely priced for the work that went into it and the materials used. =3DA0Don'=
t =3D
rip people off. =3DA0I want to see the Jane Doe line priced at Walmart type=
p=3D
rices. =3DA0That will tip off potential customers that perhaps it is not wh=
at=3D
they think it is. =3DA0I'm not worried about losing customers to low low p=
ri=3D
ced competition. =3DA0It just makes hand-thrown pottery stand out more. I a=
ls=3D
o don't mind if you use pre-made underglazes on bisqueware that you buy fro=
=3D
m the local pottery supply store and then come sell at the craft fair with =
=3D
me. =3DA0You are handmade enough to be welcome. =3DA0Come to NCECA too. =3D=
A0But =3D
you shouldn't charge like you dug the clay yourself and you should refer to=
=3D
your pots as "hand-decorated," not "hand-made." =3DA0
My two cents,=3DA0Maggie
Pate Ceramicspateceramics.blogspot.compateceramics.etsy.com=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A
Lee Love on mon 14 dec 09
On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:15 AM, Maggie Furtak wro=
=3D
te:
> Point two: I don't care if it's handmade or not, I care if it is appropri=
=3D
ately
> priced for the work that went into it and the materials used.
My teacher's mold made work, especially neriage work, took a lot more
time than the same sized thrown work. So it typically cost more.
I agree with you: the price should be related to the time
it takes to make work.
For example, it is often more difficult to throw a guinomi
than it is a matcha jawan, because you have all the same elements, in
a smaller than hand sized form. Typically, guinomi are pricedthe
same price as yunomi, in Japan.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
KATHI LESUEUR on mon 14 dec 09
On Dec 14, 2009, at 8:15 AM, Maggie Furtak wrote:
> <<< I also don't mind if you use pre-made underglazes on bisqueware
> that you buy from the local pottery supply store and then come sell
> at the craft fair with me. You are handmade enough to be welcome.
> Come to NCECA too. But you shouldn't charge like you dug the clay
> yourself and you should refer to your pots as "hand-decorated," not
> "hand-made.">>
Ah, but you see, I care. Years ago someone wrote in to the
CraftsReport that she wasn't criticizing potters who had someone else
dip their pots in glaze, just those who had someone make the pot.
Well, I care. I would NEVER let someone glaze my pots. And, I won't
use glazes made by someone else. I think that is where I make my work
unique. It is the art of the pot. Give me someone who wants to learn
to throw and I can get them making nice pots in a very short period
of time. Glazing? That's a different challenge and far harder. So,
you care about one thing. I care about another. Neither is right or
wrong.
KATHI LESUEUR
http://www.lesueurclaywork.com
>
>
Amy Romaniec on tue 15 dec 09
Hand made ?
I have been reading all the posts.
I always get the question :
___ "WOW! How long does it take you to sculpt that dog?"
I answer:
50 years and 10 minutes!
small scale is MUCH harder =3D2C so is a long haired dog - maybe 50 years =
an=3D
d 15 minutes. =3D20
Cause I can make em fast now does it mean I should charge less?
Hummm
.
one other thing=3D20
What about the paraplegic that paints with his mouth or toes??? hand made=
=3D
.?
Cheers =3D2C
Amy on the farm.
highhorsefarm.com
> Date: Tue=3D2C 15 Dec 2009 14:18:20 -0500
> From: kef@KFORER.COM
> Subject: Re: handmade debate
> To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>=3D20
> On Dec 14=3D2C 2009=3D2C at 8:08 PM=3D2C Lee Love wrote:
>=3D20
> > I agree with you: the price should be related to the time
> > it takes to make work.
>=3D20
> You could also say the less time the piece takes=3D2C the fewer resources=
c=3D
onsumed and the most economy of means expressed=3D2C that the price should =
be=3D
higher.
>=3D20
> The clay fruits of my time are not fungible=3D2C they are unique=3D2C the=
y ar=3D
e liquid and changeable.=3D20
>=3D20
> A stopwatch is a terrible way to measure value and a divisive ethic many =
=3D
escape when they turn to studio work. Observe and record it=3D2C it's not w=
it=3D
hout interest=3D2C but it's not primary. Utility=3D2C formal values=3D2C re=
sonanc=3D
e all play greater roles in exchange on a market.=3D20
>=3D20
> If you run a business that makes multiples of a variety of widgets=3D2C s=
im=3D
ilar widgets should be priced the same including the one that somehow acqui=
=3D
red a special silver streak=3D2C or that other incredible racer (just keep =
it=3D
for yourself or let it go to someone lucky!). Size is a reasonable factor=
=3D
=3D2C noting that very small or miniature can be as demanding as monumental=
it=3D
y=3D2C and widgets of the same line can easily be priced by size. Same thin=
g =3D
for finish or material. There are cost factors that multiply with productio=
=3D
n that demand a place in the spreadsheet.
>=3D20
> Many businesses price by time=3D2C but not all time is the same. As an IT=
f=3D
reelancer I amortize my rates slightly. When I encounter something new to m=
=3D
e but straightforward=3D2C something that will take me ten minutes once I k=
no=3D
w it but perhaps an hour to learn it. I may bill only half an hour or fifte=
=3D
en minutes for that particular time spent=3D2C depending whether it's somet=
hi=3D
ng unusual or standard. And if I'm really flying=3D2C I might take more per=
so=3D
nal breaks=3D2C check my email or go on facebook=3D2C so it's a 50 minute h=
our =3D
that's billed as one hour. But only when I know I'm really getting a lot do=
=3D
ne quickly and it's a big repetitive job that demands breaks will I allow t=
=3D
hat kind of slack which ends up more as a trampoline keeping the game going=
=3D
. When I've worked for a client a long enough time that we have a regular g=
=3D
ig=3D2C then all my time is the same and goes by the clock. They get billed=
t=3D
he fast time as well as the slow time.=3D20
>=3D20
> Filling within the outlines of a printed coloring book is different than =
=3D
making your own drawings. Even as a business needs to be innovative=3D2C th=
er=3D
e are limitations of design and scope that you don't have when you're compl=
=3D
etely on your own. If you want to change your style or technique significan=
=3D
tly=3D2C or just experiment=3D2C it becomes product development=3D2C market=
ing an=3D
d R&D=3D2C not a general studio practice of innovation and exploration. Eve=
n =3D
for the small mom and pop company=3D2C it's an entire dirigible that needs =
to=3D
be turned=3D2C not just a dinghy or flexible flyer. Assembly lines need to=
b=3D
e retooled=3D2C prices need to be changed=3D2C suppliers and outlets notifi=
ed=3D
=3D2C all that stuff.=3D20
>=3D20
> Studio practice is entirely different. Something might take five years of=
=3D
thinking and then come out as from the head or thigh of Zeus. Another migh=
=3D
t be an extended build=3D2C destroy and build again struggle with material =
an=3D
d methods. Then there are the things that get made simply without fuss. How=
=3D
do you measure those in time? You'd need a mighty algorithm! Time is liqui=
=3D
d and goes where it's needed=3D2C it's the stuff holding it all together=3D=
2C t=3D
he soup within which we define form=3D2C not the weight of a sack of orange=
s.=3D
=3D20
>=3D20
> Time is light! (At least today.)
>=3D20
>=3D20
> Kathy
>=3D20
>=3D20
> Kathy Forer
> www.foreverink.com
=3D20
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/=3D
Ellen Currans on tue 15 dec 09
Some time ago I realized that there is value to these hotly debated,
unanswerable issues on Clayart. At first, I would just be annoyed if
someone had a different point of view. Then I began to realize that
sometimes they spoke from greater experience or more tolerance, or
perhaps even ignorance, and in the course of considering what they
were saying, I either understood better what I did believe, or changed
some aspect of my own belief. We have some extremely well read,
good minds on Clayart, and I appreciate that, even when I might not
agree with every conclusion. Clayart is an ongoing education!
About "handmade", I just have to say that I have been trying to avoid
that label all 51 years of my pottery life. I started pottery classes=3D20
in
Pasadena in the late 50's. Do any of you remember "the little old lady
in tennis shoes from Pasadena"? I don't even remember what it referred=3D2=
0
to
specifically, but I do know, that being a woman and short, with kids,
it has always been a struggle to be taken seriously as a potter.
"Handmade" conjures up visions of crocheted toilet paper covers
and church bazaars. "Handmade" sounds like lovingly patted out leaf =3D20
dishes.
I much prefer "handcrafted" and it fits better with the long years of=3D20
late nights
and slowly learned techniques, tools, and skills that made it possible=3D20
to make a
living as a potter.
Having said that, let me also say that I love the handmade, especially=3D20
if it
is old and used and lovingly made. Old wooden spoons, bowls, baskets,
salt glazed sherry bottles, little marble carved boxes, worn weavings=3D20
and
weathered glass. It is just that when "handmade" is commercialized
and given some specific value, apart from the intrinsic value of the=3D20
piece,
that it doesn't mean very much. "Loving hands at home" have made a lot
of ugly stuff.
Ellen Currans
Dundee, Oregon
Lee Love on tue 15 dec 09
On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 3:43 PM, Kathy Forer wrote:
>
> I wrote:
>> check my email or go on facebook
>
> I wouldn't really do that. too much of a time sink!
Haha! Yeah. I don't count email time in the cost of a pot either. ;^)
>Studio practice is entirely different. Something might take five years of
>thinking and then come out as from the head or thigh of Zeus.
I don't think you can really charge for experience or
difficulty of your course of study. It's all gotta come out in the
thing you produce. Then it is adjusted by the market.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Randall Moody on tue 15 dec 09
Once again, the price or time to make the piece has zero to do with =3D
whether
or not the piece is handmade. The difficulty of the piece to make also =3D
has
nothing to do with whether or not the piece is handmade. Those are red
herrings.=3D20
--Randall in Atlanta--
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Lee Love
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 8:08 PM
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: handmade debate
On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:15 AM, Maggie Furtak
wrote:
> Point two: I don't care if it's handmade or not, I care if it is
appropriately
> priced for the work that went into it and the materials used.
My teacher's mold made work, especially neriage work, took a lot more
time than the same sized thrown work. So it typically cost more.
I agree with you: the price should be related to the time
it takes to make work.
For example, it is often more difficult to throw a guinomi
than it is a matcha jawan, because you have all the same elements, in
a smaller than hand sized form. Typically, guinomi are pricedthe
same price as yunomi, in Japan.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, =3D
"The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Lee Love on tue 15 dec 09
On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 1:18 PM, Kathy Forer wrote:
> Studio practice is entirely different. Something might take five years of=
=3D
>thinking and then come out as from the head or thigh of Zeus.
Typically, overwrought work has no interest to me.
And there is no way for me to quantify and subtract my joy in
the making. Should we have to pay others for that? ;^) It is hard
to quantify quality.
> Time is light! (At least today.)
Photons?
"You can always get more money, but you can never get more time."
-Brit Expat Potter in
Kasama, Japan
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Lee Love on tue 15 dec 09
Kathi,
We have one way of looking at the pottery process here,
were we don't have many continuing traditions. But in other places,
potters don't work in isolation. They work in communities and folks
do different aspects of the work. Shimaoka said he liked having many
hands in the work, because it took some of the intellectual control
out of the process. It was related to the reason he fired in a large,
complex noborigama.
You are right about glazing being harder. I often think
that what I learned about glazing, sitting between Shimaoka and the
Glazer, were my most important lessons there.
Your confused again Randall. Maggie didn't say it had anything to do
with it. She said she didn't care. It is only important that the
process be what it claimed to be and that you charge accordingly.
I agree with her. Does it always make sense to make square
pots on a turning wheel? Maybe not.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Kathy Forer on tue 15 dec 09
I wrote:
> check my email or go on facebook
I wouldn't really do that. too much of a time sink!
K.
Kathy Forer on tue 15 dec 09
On Dec 14, 2009, at 8:08 PM, Lee Love wrote:
> I agree with you: the price should be related to the time
> it takes to make work.
You could also say the less time the piece takes, the fewer resources =3D
consumed and the most economy of means expressed, that the price should =3D
be higher.
The clay fruits of my time are not fungible, they are unique, they are =3D
liquid and changeable.=3D20
A stopwatch is a terrible way to measure value and a divisive ethic many =
=3D
escape when they turn to studio work. Observe and record it, it's not =3D
without interest, but it's not primary. Utility, formal values, =3D
resonance all play greater roles in exchange on a market.=3D20
If you run a business that makes multiples of a variety of widgets, =3D
similar widgets should be priced the same including the one that somehow =
=3D
acquired a special silver streak, or that other incredible racer (just =3D
keep it for yourself or let it go to someone lucky!). Size is a =3D
reasonable factor, noting that very small or miniature can be as =3D
demanding as monumentality, and widgets of the same line can easily be =3D
priced by size. Same thing for finish or material. There are cost =3D
factors that multiply with production that demand a place in the =3D
spreadsheet.
Many businesses price by time, but not all time is the same. As an IT =3D
freelancer I amortize my rates slightly. When I encounter something new =3D
to me but straightforward, something that will take me ten minutes once =3D
I know it but perhaps an hour to learn it. I may bill only half an hour =3D
or fifteen minutes for that particular time spent, depending whether =3D
it's something unusual or standard. And if I'm really flying, I might =3D
take more personal breaks, check my email or go on facebook, so it's a =3D
50 minute hour that's billed as one hour. But only when I know I'm =3D
really getting a lot done quickly and it's a big repetitive job that =3D
demands breaks will I allow that kind of slack which ends up more as a =3D
trampoline keeping the game going. When I've worked for a client a long =3D
enough time that we have a regular gig, then all my time is the same and =
=3D
goes by the clock. They get billed the fast time as well as the slow =3D
time.=3D20
Filling within the outlines of a printed coloring book is different than =
=3D
making your own drawings. Even as a business needs to be innovative, =3D
there are limitations of design and scope that you don't have when =3D
you're completely on your own. If you want to change your style or =3D
technique significantly, or just experiment, it becomes product =3D
development, marketing and R&D, not a general studio practice of =3D
innovation and exploration. Even for the small mom and pop company, it's =
=3D
an entire dirigible that needs to be turned, not just a dinghy or =3D
flexible flyer. Assembly lines need to be retooled, prices need to be =3D
changed, suppliers and outlets notified, all that stuff.=3D20
Studio practice is entirely different. Something might take five years =3D
of thinking and then come out as from the head or thigh of Zeus. Another =
=3D
might be an extended build, destroy and build again struggle with =3D
material and methods. Then there are the things that get made simply =3D
without fuss. How do you measure those in time? You'd need a mighty =3D
algorithm! Time is liquid and goes where it's needed, it's the stuff =3D
holding it all together, the soup within which we define form, not the =3D
weight of a sack of oranges.=3D20
Time is light! (At least today.)
Kathy
Kathy Forer
www.foreverink.com
douglas fur on wed 16 dec 09
Ellen
Hand made - maybe this is a confusion of the medium for the meaning.-
I had the chance to handle one of those neo-lithic chinese jars one time an=
d
the natural way to hold the pot was such that it was also the way the potte=
r
had held it so when I put my hand inside my fingers fit into the finger
grooves left buy the maker millenia ago. It was kinda like those times you
cut yourself on a piece of chipped glaze or glass that's so sharp you know
in "your guts" you're cut even when you can't see the blood.
It was the same chilling feeling. I knew in my body I'd been touched by
someone even though I "knew" intellectually that wasn't "possible".
Lee mentioned the attitude of heart as key maybe we could get more
understanding if the term was "Heartmade". We already have a vocabulary fo=
r
the conversation- "my heart's not in it." "She really put her heart into it=
"
as well as the related "Feel it in my guts" "feel it in my bones"
This also brings to mind my favorite duplicitous word- is "medium" that
stuff we work with or the person at the seance? Or is it both?- my medium
carries a message to another world?
DRB
Seattle
On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 8:53 PM, Ellen Currans wrote:
> Some time ago I realized that there is value to these hotly debated,
> unanswerable issues on Clayart. At first, I would just be annoyed if
> someone had a different point of view. Then I began to realize that
> sometimes they spoke from greater experience or more tolerance, or
> perhaps even ignorance, and in the course of considering what they
> were saying, I either understood better what I did believe, or changed
> some aspect of my own belief. We have some extremely well read,
> good minds on Clayart, and I appreciate that, even when I might not
> agree with every conclusion. Clayart is an ongoing education!
>
> About "handmade", I just have to say that I have been trying to avoid
> that label all 51 years of my pottery life. I started pottery classes in
> Pasadena in the late 50's. Do any of you remember "the little old lady
> in tennis shoes from Pasadena"? I don't even remember what it referred t=
o
> specifically, but I do know, that being a woman and short, with kids,
> it has always been a struggle to be taken seriously as a potter.
> "Handmade" conjures up visions of crocheted toilet paper covers
> and church bazaars. "Handmade" sounds like lovingly patted out leaf
> dishes.
> I much prefer "handcrafted" and it fits better with the long years of lat=
e
> nights
> and slowly learned techniques, tools, and skills that made it possible to
> make a
> living as a potter.
>
> Having said that, let me also say that I love the handmade, especially if
> it
> is old and used and lovingly made. Old wooden spoons, bowls, baskets,
> salt glazed sherry bottles, little marble carved boxes, worn weavings and
> weathered glass. It is just that when "handmade" is commercialized
> and given some specific value, apart from the intrinsic value of the piec=
e,
> that it doesn't mean very much. "Loving hands at home" have made a lot
> of ugly stuff.
>
> Ellen Currans
> Dundee, Oregon
>
Edouard Bastarache on wed 16 dec 09
Hi all,
maybe someday you will be able to choose between
a handmade and a robot surgical operation !!!
Hehehehehe.
Gis,
Edouard Bastarache
Spertesperantisto
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
http://edouardbastarache.blogspot.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30058682@N00/
http://cerampeintures.blogspot.com/
http://albertpaintings.blogspot.com/
marci and rex on wed 16 dec 09
At 10:53 PM 12/15/2009, Ellen Currans wrote:
> "Loving hands at home" have made a lot
>of ugly stuff.
....as has the art world ...... ( yeah, I know! I m a cave dweller )
marci
Shaw Pottery on wed 16 dec 09
Years ago one of the Deans of the college in=3D20
Colorado where Joe taught came by the classroom=3D20
as Joe was getting ready to load a kiln. Some of=3D20
the items were mugs that Joe had made for a=3D20
=3D46aculty Show.
Joe always paid for all of his materials, and=3D20
donated his own time on the firings. He was=3D20
required to make pots for the Faculty Show, where=3D20
all the instructors sold their pieces for little=3D20
to nothing.
The Dean asked how much it cost for the materials. Joe said "25=3DA2, maybe=
50=3D
=3DA2".
"And how much for the firing?" Joe told him.
"So for an item that cost you less than $1.00 to=3D20
make, how much do you charge for the mug?"
Joe said "$5.00, usually." (Remember, this was the early 80's)
"You mean you make something for less than a buck=3D20
and make four bucks profit? How the %$#$ do you=3D20
justify that?"
Joe quietly said "I believe there is the same=3D20
markup in my art as there is in your salary."
Absolutely right, he was!
The Dean went on to "investigate" if Joe was=3D20
making money at the college's expense. The Head=3D20
of the Department had asked Joe to keep a running=3D20
log during the years he was there of the expenses=3D20
he incurred on his own work, the hours he donated=3D20
to the school with no pay, and the sales that=3D20
were made at the show.
When all was done, the college wrote Joe a very=3D20
sizeable check for the last few years, the Dean=3D20
left that spring for a job in California at the=3D20
request of the college.
>Hand made ?
>I have been reading all the posts.
>I always get the question :
>___ "WOW! How long does it take you to sculpt that dog?"
>I answer:
>50 years and 10 minutes!
>small scale is MUCH harder , so is a long haired=3D20
>dog - maybe 50 years and 15 minutes.
>Cause I can make em fast now does it mean I should charge less?
>Hummm
>one other thing
>What about the paraplegic that paints with his mouth or toes??? hand mad=
e=3D
=3D2E?
>Cheers ,
>Amy on the farm.
>highhorsefarm.com
Seele Robert on wed 16 dec 09
On Dec 15, 2009, at 10:42 PM, Amy Romaniec wrote:
one other thing
What about the paraplegic that paints with his mouth or toes??? hand
made.?
And what about a person with one artificial hand, are his pots half
handmade?
bob seele
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Snail Scott on wed 16 dec 09
On Dec 14, 2009, at 7:08 PM, Lee Love wrote:
> ...the price should be related to the time
> it takes to make work...
Should be, but often cannot be. Price must be what
people will pay. More time spent does not always
give a more desirable result. That time may be needed
to get the desired effect, but may not be rewarded by
by a higher selling price.
What tallying your time does is tell you whether you
can afford to keep making such work. A lower profit
margin doesn't mean you should quit making it, since
selling only your highest-profit item may not make
for a well-rounded and appealing line of work, and
make a really boring worklife, too. It can be a reality
check, though, if you can't ask a sufficiently higher
price to offset expenses. Make it if you like; there' s
no law that says you make a profit, after all, but it
may just have to be its own reward.
-Snail
Randall Moody on wed 16 dec 09
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Lee Love
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:07 AM
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: handmade debate
Your confused again Randall. Maggie didn't say it had anything to do
with it. She said she didn't care. It is only important that the
process be what it claimed to be and that you charge accordingly.
My confused what? Lee, I wasn't speaking to Maggie in my last post. I was
speaking to you concerning your statement "My teacher's mold made work,
especially neriage work, took a lot more time than the same sized thrown
work. So it typically cost more." Neither time nor amount charged has
anything to do with the definition of handmade.
--Randall in Atlanta--
Maggie Furtak on wed 16 dec 09
On Mon, 14 Dec 2009 21:12:17=3DA0KATHI LESUEUR wrote: =3DA0=3D0A"Years ago =
someon=3D
e wrote in to the=3DA0CraftsReport that she wasn't criticizing potters who =
ha=3D
d someone else=3DA0dip their pots in glaze, just those who had someone make=
t=3D
he pot.=3D0AWell, I care. I would NEVER let someone glaze my pots. And, I w=
on=3D
't=3DA0use glazes made by someone else. I think that is where I make my wor=
k=3D
=3DA0unique. It is the art of the pot. Give me someone who wants to learn=
=3DA0t=3D
o throw and I can get them making nice pots in a very short period=3DA0of t=
im=3D
e. Glazing? That's a different challenge and far harder." =3DA0=3D0A=3D0AI =
have a=3D
college buddy who worked for a potter for a while just doing glazing. App=
=3D
arently there were several of them with little jars of commercial glaze and=
=3D
paintbrushes working 8 hour shifts painting away. The lady was very persn=
=3D
ickety that they not leave any brush lines on the pots. My friend tried to=
=3D
point out that it would be much faster and easier to get an even base coat=
=3D
of glaze if they dipped instead of brushed. The lady wouldn't hear of it.=
=3D
I'm assuming that's because she wanted to be able to sell her wares as "h=
=3D
and-painted." (The bisqueware was slipcast.)=3D0A=3D0ATo me this is the wo=
rst =3D
kind of toadying to the marketplace. Using an inappropriate technique, too=
=3D
l, or material for the style of work you are making, just so you can slap a=
=3D
label on your product for the unwashed masses? That's just going to resul=
=3D
t in poor quality work. =3D0A=3D0A-Maggie Furtak=3D0A=3D0Apateceramics.ets=
y.com=3D0A=3D
pateceramics.blogspot.com=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A
Snail Scott on thu 17 dec 09
On Dec 17, 2009, at 6:19 PM, Lee Love wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Snail Scott
> wrote:
>> On Dec 14, 2009, at 7:08 PM, Lee Love wrote:
>>> ...the price should be related to the time
>>> it takes to make work...
>>
>> Should be, but often cannot be. Price must be what
>> people will pay. More time spent does not always
>
> I believe that is one of the main difference between art and
> functional craft: it is much easier to price functional craft by the
> time it takes to make it than doing the same with art...
I'll agree that the equation is completely unstuck
with respect to fine art. But I'll be you've seen pots
with fussy little flowers painted in underglaze, with
an extra hour or two of work invested, that are just
flat out uglier than the same pot done 'plain', and
the maker scratching their head to figure out why
no one will buy the dang things even with all that
extra effort...
Or the novice who spends anhour throwing the
'perfect pot' while another person makes five or
ten in the same period. Is the novice's work worth
five or ten times the price?
-Snail
Lee Love on thu 17 dec 09
On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Snail Scott w=
=3D
rote:
> On Dec 14, 2009, at 7:08 PM, Lee Love wrote:
>>
>> ...the price should be related to the time
>> it takes to make work...
>
>
> Should be, but often cannot be. Price must be what
> people will pay. More time spent does not always
I believe that is one of the main difference between art and
functional craft: it is much easier to price functional craft by the
time it takes to make it than doing the same with art.
My work is priced according to the amount of time it takes to
make it and all the associated tasks, including the type of firing
(for example, my gas fired work costs more than my electric fired work
but not as much as my wood fired work.)
We went to the MIA's Louver show and found it oppressive.
http://www.artsmia.org/louvre/
The astronomer's room where a functional astrolab and star charts
made by Durer , was the best part.
http://www.artsmia.org/index.php?section_id=3D3D2&exh_id=3D3D3436
When we walked out of there an into the the room of Native America
beadwork, it was like a marble or bronze boulder was lifted off our
shoulders.
http://www.artsmia.org/index.php?section_id=3D3D2&exh_id=3D3D2849
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Lee Love on fri 18 dec 09
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 10:38 PM, Snail Scott wr=
=3D
ote:
>
>
> Or the novice who spends anhour throwing the
> 'perfect pot' while another person makes five or
> ten in the same period. Is the novice's work worth
> five or ten times the price?
>
>
Yes, in the beginning, we often spend to much time on stuff, when we
should just mush it up and start again. In those times, it is best to kee=
=3D
p
very few things. But sometimes, folks insist on making their Christmas
presents.
--=3D20
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97that=
is, "Th=3D
e
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Lee on fri 18 dec 09
On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 1:18 PM, Kathy Forer wrote:
> You could also say the less time the piece takes, the fewer resources >co=
nsumed and the most economy of means expressed, that the price .>should be =
higher.
Only if you pay yourself assembly line wages.
--
Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
"The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a
faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant
and has forgotten the gift." -- Albert Einstein
Kathy Forer on tue 2 feb 10
It's just a tool! Something to help you do something. The question is =3D
whether you allow the tool to run the show or you make your own choices.=3D=
20=3D
Mastering a medium, tool or skill teaches and frees you of constraints, =3D
whatever they are. You're left free to do what you want, how you want to =
=3D
do it.
Without experience and understanding, you're at the mercy of medium, or =3D
the skill, or the tool. With it, you're free to discover and explore.
Technology is medium and tool together. The "higher" the technology, the =
=3D
more complex the chain between the two and the more removed the starting =
=3D
line of the end-user. Usually with more people around, each contribution =
=3D
specified, specialized and interwoven with the rest, in all kinds of =3D
ways. A tight top-down organization. An inverted pyramidal structure. A =3D
random process.=3D20
Artistic feedback isn't only between the artist and the viewer, it's the =
=3D
source brook of the process, where we learn history and practice.
It's wonderment to see the artists of Pixar's "Up" visit the Andes, make =
=3D
sketches, photos and watercolors on the spot, then go back to Pixarwood, =
=3D
Emeryville, and turn their experiences into an animated movie. The DVD =3D
includes "Adventure Is Out There - Travel To The Real Paradise Falls!" =3D
showing the animators and story artists as they are caught in the rain =3D
or record their impressions of rocks, trees and sky. =3D
http://www.pixar.com/howwedoit/ has some flavor of the general process. =3D
http://adisney.go.com/disneyvideos/animatedfilms/up/
Kathy Forer
kef@kforer.com
On Feb 2, 2010, at 10:01 AM, James Freeman wrote:
> His blog address is http://gregorioperez.wordpress.com/ if anyone
> is interested. Here is what he wrote:
[...]
> To answer my own
> question, I don=3D92t think computers =3D93taint=3D94 or should even be =
=3D
associated in a
> negative way. What=3D92s more important is the freedom of the artist. =
=3D
I don=3D92t
> think I should be constrained by my feelings. I love making things by =
=3D
hand,
> but I shouldn=3D92t be afraid to hop the fence to sample what=3D92s on th=
e =3D
other
> side.
James Freeman on tue 2 feb 10
I saw that our "pointless" handmade debate from a month or so ago featured
prominently in the editor's letter in this month's Ceramics Monthly.
Someone has been reading our list! (To break the suspense, he sided with
the "everything is handmade" faction). A friend just added a post to his
blog (I am still not even sure what a blog is, or what it is for) that
displayed a very pragmatic view on this topic, and I thought I would share
it. He is a print maker and painter (and obsessive fly fisherman), not a
potter. His blog address is http://gregorioperez.wordpress.com/ if anyone
is interested. Here is what he wrote:
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D
=3D3D
I finally got a chance to play around with color schemes this morning using
my Autodesk Sketch software. I have mixed feelings about using the compute=
=3D
r
to do this. I find it a lot easier to manipulate color using watercolor
than with this software. And, if I=3D92m creating =3D93handmade=3D94 goods=
, does=3D
too
much computer use =3D93taint=3D94 a handmade piece? Yesterday I got a chan=
ce t=3D
o see
the =3D93Storybook Stars=3D94 exhibition at the Toledo Museum of Art. Illu=
stra=3D
tors
from the past 50 years were represented. Many of them continue to use
tracing paper, charcoal, pen/ink, watercolor and gauche. They are true
masters of illustration. But, there are many masters of digital
illustration as well. I know a few of them personally. To answer my own
question, I don=3D92t think computers =3D93taint=3D94 or should even be ass=
ociate=3D
d in a
negative way. What=3D92s more important is the freedom of the artist. I d=
on=3D
=3D92t
think I should be constrained by my feelings. I love making things by hand=
=3D
,
but I shouldn=3D92t be afraid to hop the fence to sample what=3D92s on the =
othe=3D
r
side.
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D
=3D3D
Just sharing; not trying to open up a can of worms.
...James
James Freeman
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice. I should
not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/clayart/
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