Shaw Pottery on wed 16 dec 09
(Second attempt to post)
Years ago one of the Deans of the college in=3D20
Colorado where Joe taught came by the classroom=3D20
as Joe was getting ready to load a kiln. Some of=3D20
the items were mugs that Joe had made for a=3D20
=3D46aculty Show.
Joe always paid for all of his materials, and=3D20
donated his own time on the firings. He was=3D20
required to make pots for the Faculty Show, where=3D20
all the instructors sold their pieces for little=3D20
to nothing.
The Dean asked how much it cost for the materials. Joe said "25=3DA2, maybe=
50=3D
=3DA2".
"And how much for the firing?" Joe told him.
"So for an item that cost you less than $1.00 to=3D20
make, how much do you charge for the mug?"
Joe said "$5.00, usually." (Remember, this was the early 80's)
"You mean you make something for less than a buck=3D20
and make four bucks profit? How the %$#$ do you=3D20
justify that?"
Joe quietly said "I believe there is the same=3D20
markup in my art as there is in your salary."
Absolutely right, he was!
The Dean went on to "investigate" if Joe was=3D20
making money at the college's expense. The Head=3D20
of the Department had asked Joe to keep a running=3D20
log during the years he was there of the expenses=3D20
he incurred on his own work, the hours he donated=3D20
to the school with no pay, and the sales that=3D20
were made at the show.
When all was done, the college wrote Joe a very=3D20
sizeable check for the last few years, the Dean=3D20
left that spring for a job in California at the=3D20
request of the college.
>Hand made ?
>I have been reading all the posts.
>I always get the question :
>___ "WOW! How long does it take you to sculpt that dog?"
>I answer:
>50 years and 10 minutes!
>small scale is MUCH harder , so is a long haired=3D20
>dog - maybe 50 years and 15 minutes.
>Cause I can make em fast now does it mean I should charge less?
>Hummm
>one other thing
>What about the paraplegic that paints with his mouth or toes??? hand mad=
e=3D
=3D2E?
>Cheers ,
>Amy on the farm.
>highhorsefarm.com
carlitas@COMCAST.NET on wed 16 dec 09
Well Chris, I do get out quite often thank you very much and I'm certainly =
not a rooky. What you are talking about and what I'm talking about are two=
very different things. I'm talking about people selling slip-casted funct=
ional ware and telling me to my face that the pieces are thrown on a potter=
s wheel when I can actually see the joint lines from the molds.
I have friends that collect the work you are talking about and I personally=
think they're insane to pay such prices for copies of original art....whic=
h is exactly what they are....copies, no matter how long it took to make th=
e mold, no matter how many pieces were made or how long they took to finish=
.
No one pays extra for handmade?!? You're kidding, right? An art collector=
would happily pay the same price for a print than the original painting?
Carla
In Aliquippa, PA getting back on my turnip truck
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 14:59:32 -0800
From: Chris Campbell
Subject: Re: Handmade - Somebody's got to say it!
> OK. Here goes....if you're slip casting, you
> ARE NOT making handmade pottery.
> I don't care if you made the mold and made the
> slip and made the glazes, it still is not handmade
WOW ... you have to get out more!
There is a whole world out there beyond the
craft shows you attend.
Worlds where master mold makers produce
fine limited editions of their designs.
They are decorated to perfection.
Series are limited and the molds are broken.
It takes them months of precise hand work to
produce these beautiful pieces ... you really
should not limit your thinking to such simplistic
views of what true mold making is.
Start expanding your knowledge of these artists
and I guarantee you will be blown away by
the variety, beauty and talent.
For that matter ... this whole debate over hand
made rather misses the point for me.
I am more interested in asking whether
the term 'hand made' has any value at all
without a matching amount of craft and talent.
No one pays extra just for 'handmade'.
You don't get into galleries or serious collections
because of that alone.
No big bonus just because an artiste holds some
illusions about the value of their hand work.
Care, craftsmanship, talent, perseverance ...
the hours you spend on your butt ...
the miles you put on your wheel ...
KATHI LESUEUR on wed 16 dec 09
On Dec 16, 2009, at 3:50 PM, carlitas@COMCAST.NET wrote:
> <> personally think they're insane to pay such prices for copies of
> original art....which is exactly what they are....copies, no matter
> how long it took to make the mold, no matter how many pieces were
> made or how long they took to finish.
>
> No one pays extra for handmade?!? You're kidding, right? An art
> collector would happily pay the same price for a print than the
> original painting?>>
>
What Chris Campbell is talking about is ART. Exquisite pieces made by
the use of a mold. Making a mold and then casting is the only way to
make those pieces. There is no original before the cast piece. There
is a solid model from which the mold is made. They are just as
legitimate as the Rodin sculptures of the Thinker. The Toledo museum
of art has one. Philadelphia has one. They are all Rodin's. They are
not copies. Bronze sculptures are not considered copies of a clay
sculpture. Rembrandt didn't paint many of his paintings. But, they
are still considered Rembrandts. There is a painter in New York today
who doesn't paint his own paintings. He has about 100 people painting
for him. People pay big bucks for his paintings and they know how
they are done. Sixty Minutes did a show on him. He doesn't hide.
Your definition of handmade and that of the serious art collector's
is very different. Do you really think the collectors of Rookwood
pottery care that it was slip cast? They pay big bucks for those
"factory originals". American art pottery is a very big collector
category and all of it was slip cast. All of it commands high prices.
Wedgewood is far too expensive for the average person to buy.
Collectors buy lots of it. It's all made from molds.
John Rodgers is right when he says that handmade must be completely
handmade without the use of any tools. Otherwise it is impossible to
draw the line. Draw it for yourself, yes, but not for others. Is
extruding handmade? If yes, why. I extrude business card holders.
Twenty years ago I made a die. Since then I've probably extruded
about 10,000 of those things. My hand work consists of cutting them
in four in lengths and smoothing the edges. Does it make a difference
that I now extrude them with my pugmill, a machine? If yes, why? It's
ridiculous to say that if I pull a lever they are handmade. If I run
the clay through a pugmill they are not. They require the same
cutting and finishing. What makes them worth having is the glaze. Is
the dinner plate I make handmade if I use a rib to form the bottom?
Is it still handmade if I put that rib on a lever and use it to form
the bottom?
I often wonder how many people who are in this handmade debate are
making their living from pottery. How many are the sole source of
their family income. And, if they aren't, what standard of living
would they be willing to accept to stay in their definition of
handmade if they had to support their family solely from their
pottery. I no longer press pots, but I have no argument with those
who do. I did not think it was worth the $20,000 investment to get
the machine and just two dies. Others thought differently. But, I
have developed systems that allow me to kick out a lot of product in
a short period of time. Some of it is slab, some thrown, some extruded.
My bottom line is that I don't care how you get it made, just do it
well. Handmade lousy pots have far less value to me than well
designed and glazed RAM pressed pots.
KATHI LESUEUR
http://www.lesueurclaywork.com
John Rodgers on wed 16 dec 09
Carla,
Check my website shown below. Maybe not the most artsy in the world, but
clear evidence that the old axiom of "You can get there from here"
applies. There is no way to arrive at the pieces shown without molds.
However artsy they may or may not be - they are definitely "handcrafted"
- not "handmade".
John Rodgers
Clayartist and Moldmaker
88'GL VW Bus Driver
Chelsea, AL
Http://www.moldhaus.com
carlitas@COMCAST.NET wrote:
> Well Chris, I do get out quite often thank you very much and I'm certainl=
y not a rooky. What you are talking about and what I'm talking about are t=
wo very different things. I'm talking about people selling slip-casted fun=
ctional ware and telling me to my face that the pieces are thrown on a pott=
ers wheel when I can actually see the joint lines from the molds.
>
> I have friends that collect the work you are talking about and I personal=
ly think they're insane to pay such prices for copies of original art....wh=
ich is exactly what they are....copies, no matter how long it took to make =
the mold, no matter how many pieces were made or how long they took to fini=
sh.
>
> No one pays extra for handmade?!? You're kidding, right? An art collect=
or would happily pay the same price for a print than the original painting?
>
> Carla
> In Aliquippa, PA getting back on my turnip truck
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 14:59:32 -0800
> From: Chris Campbell
> Subject: Re: Handmade - Somebody's got to say it!
>
>
>> OK. Here goes....if you're slip casting, you
>> ARE NOT making handmade pottery.
>> I don't care if you made the mold and made the
>> slip and made the glazes, it still is not handmade
>>
>
>
> WOW ... you have to get out more!
> There is a whole world out there beyond the
> craft shows you attend.
>
> Worlds where master mold makers produce
> fine limited editions of their designs.
> They are decorated to perfection.
> Series are limited and the molds are broken.
>
> It takes them months of precise hand work to
> produce these beautiful pieces ... you really
> should not limit your thinking to such simplistic
> views of what true mold making is.
>
> Start expanding your knowledge of these artists
> and I guarantee you will be blown away by
> the variety, beauty and talent.
>
> For that matter ... this whole debate over hand
> made rather misses the point for me.
>
> I am more interested in asking whether
> the term 'hand made' has any value at all
> without a matching amount of craft and talent.
>
> No one pays extra just for 'handmade'.
> You don't get into galleries or serious collections
> because of that alone.
> No big bonus just because an artiste holds some
> illusions about the value of their hand work.
>
> Care, craftsmanship, talent, perseverance ...
> the hours you spend on your butt ...
> the miles you put on your wheel ...
>
>
>
John Rodgers on thu 17 dec 09
Hmmm!
The axion made no sense as quoted.
What I meant to say was "You CAN'T get there from here"
John Rodgers
Clayartist and Moldmaker
88'GL VW Bus Driver
Chelsea, AL
Http://www.moldhaus.com
John Rodgers wrote:
> Carla,
>
> Check my website shown below. Maybe not the most artsy in the world, but
> clear evidence that the old axiom of "You can get there from here"
> applies. There is no way to arrive at the pieces shown without molds.
> However artsy they may or may not be - they are definitely "handcrafted"
> - not "handmade".
>
> John Rodgers
> Clayartist and Moldmaker
> 88'GL VW Bus Driver
> Chelsea, AL
> Http://www.moldhaus.com
>
>
>
> carlitas@COMCAST.NET wrote:
>> Well Chris, I do get out quite often thank you very much and I'm
>> certainly not a rooky. What you are talking about and what I'm
>> talking about are two very different things. I'm talking about
>> people selling slip-casted functional ware and telling me to my face
>> that the pieces are thrown on a potters wheel when I can actually see
>> the joint lines from the molds.
>>
>> I have friends that collect the work you are talking about and I
>> personally think they're insane to pay such prices for copies of
>> original art....which is exactly what they are....copies, no matter
>> how long it took to make the mold, no matter how many pieces were
>> made or how long they took to finish.
>>
>> No one pays extra for handmade?!? You're kidding, right? An art
>> collector would happily pay the same price for a print than the
>> original painting?
>>
>> Carla
>> In Aliquippa, PA getting back on my turnip truck
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 14:59:32 -0800
>> From: Chris Campbell
>> Subject: Re: Handmade - Somebody's got to say it!
>>
>>
>>> OK. Here goes....if you're slip casting, you
>>> ARE NOT making handmade pottery.
>>> I don't care if you made the mold and made the
>>> slip and made the glazes, it still is not handmade
>>>
>>
>>
>> WOW ... you have to get out more!
>> There is a whole world out there beyond the
>> craft shows you attend.
>>
>> Worlds where master mold makers produce
>> fine limited editions of their designs.
>> They are decorated to perfection.
>> Series are limited and the molds are broken.
>>
>> It takes them months of precise hand work to
>> produce these beautiful pieces ... you really
>> should not limit your thinking to such simplistic
>> views of what true mold making is.
>>
>> Start expanding your knowledge of these artists
>> and I guarantee you will be blown away by
>> the variety, beauty and talent.
>>
>> For that matter ... this whole debate over hand
>> made rather misses the point for me.
>>
>> I am more interested in asking whether
>> the term 'hand made' has any value at all
>> without a matching amount of craft and talent.
>>
>> No one pays extra just for 'handmade'.
>> You don't get into galleries or serious collections
>> because of that alone.
>> No big bonus just because an artiste holds some
>> illusions about the value of their hand work.
>>
>> Care, craftsmanship, talent, perseverance ...
>> the hours you spend on your butt ...
>> the miles you put on your wheel ...
>>
>>
>>
>
>
paul gerhold on thu 17 dec 09
Actually copies of the Thinker that have been cast from molds created from
the original are copies and are not nearly as valuable as the original
Paul
On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 7:31 PM, KATHI LESUEUR w=
rote:
> On Dec 16, 2009, at 3:50 PM, carlitas@COMCAST.NET wrote:
>
> <>> personally think they're insane to pay such prices for copies of
>> original art....which is exactly what they are....copies, no matter
>> how long it took to make the mold, no matter how many pieces were
>> made or how long they took to finish.
>>
>> No one pays extra for handmade?!? You're kidding, right? An art
>> collector would happily pay the same price for a print than the
>> original painting?>>
>>
>>
> What Chris Campbell is talking about is ART. Exquisite pieces made by
> the use of a mold. Making a mold and then casting is the only way to
> make those pieces. There is no original before the cast piece. There
> is a solid model from which the mold is made. They are just as
> legitimate as the Rodin sculptures of the Thinker. The Toledo museum
> of art has one. Philadelphia has one. They are all Rodin's. They are
> not copies. Bronze sculptures are not considered copies of a clay
> sculpture. Rembrandt didn't paint many of his paintings. But, they
> are still considered Rembrandts. There is a painter in New York today
> who doesn't paint his own paintings. He has about 100 people painting
> for him. People pay big bucks for his paintings and they know how
> they are done. Sixty Minutes did a show on him. He doesn't hide.
>
> Your definition of handmade and that of the serious art collector's
> is very different. Do you really think the collectors of Rookwood
> pottery care that it was slip cast? They pay big bucks for those
> "factory originals". American art pottery is a very big collector
> category and all of it was slip cast. All of it commands high prices.
> Wedgewood is far too expensive for the average person to buy.
> Collectors buy lots of it. It's all made from molds.
>
> John Rodgers is right when he says that handmade must be completely
> handmade without the use of any tools. Otherwise it is impossible to
> draw the line. Draw it for yourself, yes, but not for others. Is
> extruding handmade? If yes, why. I extrude business card holders.
> Twenty years ago I made a die. Since then I've probably extruded
> about 10,000 of those things. My hand work consists of cutting them
> in four in lengths and smoothing the edges. Does it make a difference
> that I now extrude them with my pugmill, a machine? If yes, why? It's
> ridiculous to say that if I pull a lever they are handmade. If I run
> the clay through a pugmill they are not. They require the same
> cutting and finishing. What makes them worth having is the glaze. Is
> the dinner plate I make handmade if I use a rib to form the bottom?
> Is it still handmade if I put that rib on a lever and use it to form
> the bottom?
>
> I often wonder how many people who are in this handmade debate are
> making their living from pottery. How many are the sole source of
> their family income. And, if they aren't, what standard of living
> would they be willing to accept to stay in their definition of
> handmade if they had to support their family solely from their
> pottery. I no longer press pots, but I have no argument with those
> who do. I did not think it was worth the $20,000 investment to get
> the machine and just two dies. Others thought differently. But, I
> have developed systems that allow me to kick out a lot of product in
> a short period of time. Some of it is slab, some thrown, some extruded.
>
> My bottom line is that I don't care how you get it made, just do it
> well. Handmade lousy pots have far less value to me than well
> designed and glazed RAM pressed pots.
>
> KATHI LESUEUR
> http://www.lesueurclaywork.com
>
| |
|
