Kathy Forer on sat 19 dec 09
On Dec 19, 2009, at 10:11 AM, Jess McKenzie wrote:
> But consider Kimon Nicolaides. He was an artist
> *and* a teacher, and he knew what makes a draftsman:
> Not so much the "teaching," but the will to become a
> draftsman and a year--or more--of regular practice.
Kimon Nicolaides' The Natural Way to Draw is a such a great book for =3D
learning to draw!=3D20
=3D
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Natural-Way-to-Draw/Kimon-Nicolaides/=
=3D
e/9780395530078/
Kathy Forer
mel jacobson on sat 19 dec 09
if i cannot teach drawing, painting, making pots,
creative thinking, well, someone has paid
me a great deal of money over the years for a fraudulent
pursuit.,
TEACHING ART
yes, many can learn to draw.
read, `drawing on the right side of the brain`.
do the lessons.
you will learn to draw.
betty edwards is a psychologist. not an art teacher.
if i only taught `talented` kids...crap, why show up?
just leave them alone.
i teach everyone. and most everyone learns.
drawing is like talking, except it is visual marks.
we don't have to put our `visual marks` on a wall
in a frame, mostly they are for us. a record of what
we want to do, what we think, what we just saw.
anyone can make visual marks. natural to kids.
as we age, we see others making better marks then ours.
we say...`crap, my marks are dumb, not realistic enough..so
i think i will quit making `art, visual marks`.
it is the quitting that destroys your talent.
like learning to play music. practice makes perfect.
when you stop doing, give up...no more music.
and isn't it interesting that we all say..`my own voice, my
clay marks are unique to me, i strive for that.` but your drawing
is just as individual...but, never good enough. silly.
a few percentage of people are naturally very good drawers.
but, many of those got praise when they were kids.
`oh, look at joey's drawings`...snap, on the fridg.
so, onward with drawing...good feelings follow.
when dad says...`god, that don'ta look like a bird, birds
a like this V V V ,symbol for birds. kids think..`.i am a
crappy bird drawer, but, man, i am really good at video games.
no talent follows.
mel
from: minnetonka, mn
website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
clayart link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
new book: http://www.21stcenturykilns.com
Carolyn Boeri on sat 19 dec 09
Mel,
You sound like an art therapist. Yes true perception comes straight from th=
e
heart, if we put our pencil or whatever, to work for us with the frame of
mind to express ourselves, from within, our anxiety, our joy, whatever, we
can create original art, and if it satisfies only the maker, so be it. What
is the object of art-making, the intention, not to sell only or even to
please others. Making art has a greater purpose than making us famous,
getting us money, or proving our abilities. Art down the ages has been
created from the soul and anyone can make a mark and go from there. There i=
s
something magical about making art, something soothing, we are in the
moment, the gap between before and after. and in that gap is where you will
find original work, work that touches the maker, art that releases like a
long outbreath.
done,
got to wrap presents and load up the kiln
Carolyn
----- Original Message -----
From: "mel jacobson"
To:
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 7:56 AM
Subject: drawing and teaching
> if i cannot teach drawing, painting, making pots,
> creative thinking, well, someone has paid
> me a great deal of money over the years for a fraudulent
> pursuit.,
>
> TEACHING ART
>
> yes, many can learn to draw.
> read, `drawing on the right side of the brain`.
> do the lessons.
> you will learn to draw.
>
> betty edwards is a psychologist. not an art teacher.
>
> if i only taught `talented` kids...crap, why show up?
> just leave them alone.
>
> i teach everyone. and most everyone learns.
>
> drawing is like talking, except it is visual marks.
>
> we don't have to put our `visual marks` on a wall
> in a frame, mostly they are for us. a record of what
> we want to do, what we think, what we just saw.
>
> anyone can make visual marks. natural to kids.
>
> as we age, we see others making better marks then ours.
> we say...`crap, my marks are dumb, not realistic enough..so
> i think i will quit making `art, visual marks`.
>
> it is the quitting that destroys your talent.
> like learning to play music. practice makes perfect.
> when you stop doing, give up...no more music.
>
> and isn't it interesting that we all say..`my own voice, my
> clay marks are unique to me, i strive for that.` but your drawing
> is just as individual...but, never good enough. silly.
>
> a few percentage of people are naturally very good drawers.
> but, many of those got praise when they were kids.
> `oh, look at joey's drawings`...snap, on the fridg.
> so, onward with drawing...good feelings follow.
> when dad says...`god, that don'ta look like a bird, birds
> a like this V V V ,symbol for birds. kids think..`.i am a
> crappy bird drawer, but, man, i am really good at video games.
> no talent follows.
> mel
>
> from: minnetonka, mn
> website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
> clayart link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
> new book: http://www.21stcenturykilns.com
>
>
Jess McKenzie on sat 19 dec 09
Mel
I think you're right on the money about Betty
Edwards. Not an art teacher, and not much of a
neuroscientist either.
But consider Kimon Nicolaides. He was an artist
*and* a teacher, and he knew what makes a draftsman:
Not so much the "teaching," but the will to become a
draftsman and a year--or more--of regular practice.
We all know that just reading the book--or attending
class--won't cut it. "Smart pills" can be found only
under the rabbit cage.
IMHO...~jess
mel jacobson wrote:
betty edwards is a psychologist. not an art teacher.
Lee Love on sat 19 dec 09
Our taxes at work! Good teachers are the best investment we can make
for our most precious resource: Children.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Sean Burns on sun 20 dec 09
>On Dec 19, 2009, at 10:11 AM, Jess McKenzie wrote:
>
>> But consider Kimon Nicolaides. He was an artist
>> *and* a teacher, and he knew what makes a draftsman:
>> Not so much the "teaching," but the will to become a
>> draftsman and a year--or more--of regular practice.
>
>Kimon Nicolaides' The Natural Way to Draw is a such a great book for lea=
=3D
rning=3D20
to draw!=3D20
>http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Natural-Way-to-Draw/Kimon-
Nicolaides/e/9780395530078/
>
>
>Kathy Forer
Well said- I love Nicolaides and used that as part of some of the cour=
=3D
ses I=3D20
have taught over the years- Right Side of the Brain is well liked by many=
=3D
but=3D20
misses the mark on art from the gut in my opinion. When people talk about=
=3D
=3D20
drawing or not being able to- I wonder what the barrier is- what are they=
=3D
=3D20
trying to draw anyway- usually they got hung up as a teen in an art class=
=3D
=3D20
somewhere, they drew fine as a child - my wife doesnt understand=3D20
perspective well but she is one hell of a drawer- she poes portraits that=
=3D
will=3D20
knock your socks off- she needs a photo usually- she plans gardens using=3D=
20=3D
drawings- they are folky looking- out of perspective but they work and ar=
=3D
e=3D20
really cute.
If one really wants to draw- a la Michelangelo- and to me that is hig=
=3D
h=3D20
stakes drawing in a western style- well- get prepared to put in your time=
=3D
and=3D20
pay your dues- most people arent up for that and really dont need to be- =
=3D
but=3D20
to make wonderful drawings in brush- pencils- whatever- best place to sta=
=3D
rt is=3D20
get the materials and just start- dont be afraid to throw away alot of pa=
=3D
per-=3D20
and no one needs to see it but you- dont be afraid to learn- that is the=3D=
20=3D
barrier -fear of pants down.=3D20
less writing , more drawing fo=
=3D
r a month
sketch befor breakfast and bed=
=3D
- observational
18"x24" 20 minute with charcoa=
=3D
l at noon
=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=
=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D
=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=
=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D
=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20=3D20
Sean Burns
Williamsburg, Ma.
Jess McKenzie on sun 20 dec 09
Kathy, Sean
Thanks for your comments. I've had the book for
about 20 y now. Someday, I'll dig it out and begin
that year of practice.
It's pretty clear that Betty Edwards lifted the
essential thoughts of two people much more qualified
to write about the subject: Nicolaides and Roger
Wolcott Sperry, who was a real expert on the brain.
In his Nobel lecture (1981) Sperry summed up the
neuroscience this way:
With few exceptions, the bulk of the collected lesion
evidence up through the 1950s into the early '60s
converged to support the picture of a leading, more
highly evolved and intellectual left hemisphere and a
relatively retarded right hemisphere that by
contrast, in the typical righthander brain, is not
only mute and agraphic but also dyslexic, word-deaf
and apraxic, and lacking generally in higher
cognitive function.
We can guess Edwards misunderstood Sperry, then
noticed Nicolaides book and re-wrote Nicolaides to
make his concepts more timely and more attractive to
the dilettantes. I expect most of them now are
disappointed to find that intellectual concepts can't
replace long, hard work.
~jess
Kathy Forer wrote:
>
>Kimon Nicolaides' The Natural Way to Draw is a such
a great book for learning to draw!
>http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Natural-Way-to-
Draw/Kimon-Nicolaides/e/9780395530078/
>
And Sean Burns wrote:
Well said- I love Nicolaides and used that as part of
some of the courses I have taught over the years-
Right Side of the Brain is well liked by many but
misses the mark on art from the gut in my opinion.
When people talk about drawing or not being able to-
I wonder what the barrier is- what are they trying to
draw anyway- usually they got hung up as a teen in an
art class somewhere, they drew fine as a child - my
wife doesnt understand perspective well but she is
one hell of a drawer- she poes portraits that will
knock your socks off- she needs a photo usually- she
plans gardens using drawings- they are folky looking-
out of perspective but they work and are really cute.
If one really wants to draw- a la Michelangelo- and
to me that is high stakes drawing in a western style-
well- get prepared to put in your time and pay your
dues- most people arent up for that and really dont
need to be- but to make wonderful drawings in brush-
pencils- whatever- best place to start is get the
materials and just start- dont be afraid to throw
away alot of paper- and no one needs to see it but
you- dont be afraid to learn- that is the barrier -
fear of pants down. less writing , more drawing for a
month sketch befor breakfast and bed- observational
18"x24" 20 minute with charcoal at noon
Sean Burns
Williamsburg, Ma.
Kathy Forer on sun 20 dec 09
On Dec 20, 2009, at 11:32 AM, Jess McKenzie wrote:
> In his Nobel lecture (1981) Sperry summed up the
> neuroscience this way:
>=3D20
> With few exceptions, the bulk of the collected lesion
> evidence up through the 1950s into the early '60s
> converged to support the picture of a leading, more
> highly evolved and intellectual left hemisphere and a
> relatively retarded right hemisphere that by
> contrast, in the typical righthander brain, is not
> only mute and agraphic but also dyslexic, word-deaf
> and apraxic, and lacking generally in higher
> cognitive function.
Your quote from echoes the drawing controversy as I experienced it. =3D
There seems to be "draw what you see," or feel or sense, perceptually =3D
based artists and teachers and "draw what you know" rationalists. And =3D
clusters in in between.=3D20
At the Art Students League, I'd go from Robert Beverly Hale's "draw what =
=3D
you know" drawing and anatomy class and lecture to Greg d'Alessio's =3D
point and line to plane teachings to Marshall Glasier' charcoal =3D
physicality and emotionalism. Explore and balance those hemispheres!=3D20
Betty Edwards popularized underground teachings like Nicolaides by using =
=3D
applied psychology to give words to the exercises.=3D20
Kathy=3D20=3D
ivor & olive lewis on mon 21 dec 09
I wonder how many schools around the Globe that have adopted computers as
essential classroom learning tools have introduced Graphic Tablets to
support their Arts Programs.
How many Clayart subscribers have made the transfer from traditional
graphics media to their electronic analogues?
How many of you continue to use a pictorial journal for playing with your
ceramic ideas?
Enjoy the weekend.
Regards,
Ivor Lewis,
Redhill,
South Australia
Jess McKenzie on mon 21 dec 09
Interesting question, Ivor.
We have a device called a "DigiPro," an electronic
drawing tablet that senses the position *and*
pressure applied to a stylus, then translates the
data into a sort of X,Y plot--we should add Z too, I
suppose, to account for the pressure. That would
translate to shades of black to gray. At the moment,
it's not connected to the computer.
Google has a program--the simple version is free--
that is handy for engineering drawing. We've used it
to draw up plans for sheds. We removed it last month
to save space for pot photos. Joan is writing
another article for a regional quarterly--about a
potter--and we have hundreds of photos. No more than
10 will see print, but we might make another photo
eBook if the potter wants it for advertising. After
that, we'll archive everything.
I suppose you could count Photoshop as a kind drawing
program. It's handy for lines and arrows on photos.
We use that feature some times.
These and other progs, including the expensive CAD
programs are surely useful to professional drafts-
persons, but we've found the learning curves to be
quite steep. Almost every one of our drawing needs
is satisfied with a pencil, pen, or brush. If we
must have a digital drawing, we'll take photos of
those with the D70 and a macro lens. Labels are
appended with a chisel pen.
~joan and jess
..............................
ivor & olive lewis wrote:
I wonder how many schools around the Globe that have
adopted computers as essential classroom learning
tools have introduced Graphic Tablets to support
their Arts Programs. How many Clayart subscribers
have made the transfer from traditional graphics
media to their electronic analogues? How many of you
continue to use a pictorial journal for playing with
your ceramic ideas?
Enjoy the weekend.
Regards,
Ivor Lewis,
Redhill,
South Australia
Kathy Forer on mon 21 dec 09
On Dec 21, 2009, at 1:27 AM, ivor & olive lewis wrote:
> I wonder how many schools around the Globe that have adopted computers =
=3D
as
> essential classroom learning tools have introduced Graphic Tablets to
> support their Arts Programs.
We had graphic tablets at one job I had. It was an R&D part of an =3D
educational book company and we often had extra time. I made this on the =
=3D
tablet, http://foreverink.com/graphics/images/samxmasbig.jpg (photoshop =3D
or illustrator? I forget) somehow managing a more usually evasive sure =3D
fluidity of line.=3D20
The huge tablet was terrific to use!
> How many Clayart subscribers have made the transfer from traditional
> graphics media to their electronic analogues?
In the waning years of the last century, I heard about and became very =3D
interested in VRML, virtual reality modeling language. Our New York =3D
chapter http://foreverink.com/nyvrmlsig/ would meet weekly or monthly =3D
and discuss ideas, see examples, meet the masters and discuss technique =3D
and concept.
Although the entire idea of immersive space appealed to me, and still =3D
does, the tools left me completely cold. I could use them a little, I =3D
just didn't like to do it, I got little satisfaction from sitting =3D
working with a computer, I need physical interactivity. I preferred the =3D
tools and materials with which I was long and comfortably familiar. =3D
Learning this new thing expanded the way I see the old one but I didn't =3D
want to change.=3D20
A friend is a computer scientist and we've explored ways of input that =3D
use your entire body but again I prefer the solidity of clay or paper or =
=3D
plaster.=3D20
Flat screen 3d tools provide distant physical feedback and are tediously =
=3D
slow. Speed would have changed as I improved had I really gotten into =3D
it, but the translation to thinking in numbers and coordinates never =3D
worked for me. And it takes a long time for that transition to become =3D
second sense, like the surgeon operating. And the really good stuff was =3D
done by people who had their programming down too, like those at Pixar =3D
where they make the tool to get the effect, not let the tool determine =3D
the effect.
> How many of you continue to use a pictorial journal for playing with =3D
your
> ceramic ideas?
I keep several journals and sketchbooks. And physical clippings or =3D
swipes as well. I save computer images to folders or iPhoto and either =3D
refer to them on the computer as I work or I may print them out.=3D20
Kathy
Des & Jan Howard on tue 22 dec 09
Jess
Would you mind telling us the name of the program?
Des
Jess McKenzie wrote:
> Google has a program--the simple version is free--
> that is handy for engineering drawing. We've used it
> to draw up plans for sheds.
--
Des & Jan Howard
Lue Pottery
Lue NSW
Australia
2850
02 6373 6419
www.luepottery.hwy.com.au
-32.656072 149.840624
Kathy Forer on tue 22 dec 09
On Dec 22, 2009, at 7:17 PM, ivor & olive lewis wrote:
> I take it that you have no knowledge of the use of computers and =3D
Graphics Tablets in the teaching of Art in primary and secondary schools =
=3D
?
Ivor, =3D20
Unfortunately I have no knowledge whatsoever what they're doing in =3D
schools these days. I was just speaking of my own experience making =3D
things by hand and also computer and how sensory feedback makes all the =3D
difference for me. =3D20
Kathy
ivor & olive lewis on wed 23 dec 09
Kathy,
I take it that you have no knowledge of the use of computers and Graphics
Tablets in the teaching of Art in primary and secondary schools ?.
I appreciate what you say about AutoCAD engineering programs. I did a cours=
e
by distance education. Logging coordinates was never spoken of but it was a=
n
essential record I learned to use. Without it I had difficulty with
projections.
Have a good day.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis,
Redhill,
South Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: Kathy Forer
To: ivor & olive lewis
Cc: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 8:36 AM
Subject: Re: drawing and teaching
On Dec 21, 2009, at 1:27 AM, ivor & olive lewis wrote:
> I wonder how many schools around the Globe that have adopted computers
as
> essential classroom learning tools have introduced Graphic Tablets to
> support their Arts Programs.
We had graphic tablets at one job I had. It was an R&D part of an
educational book company and we often had extra time. I made this on the
tablet, http://foreverink.com/graphics/images/samxmasbig.jpg (photoshop or
illustrator? I forget) somehow managing a more usually evasive sure fluidit=
y
of line.
The huge tablet was terrific to use!
> How many Clayart subscribers have made the transfer from traditional
> graphics media to their electronic analogues?
In the waning years of the last century, I heard about and became very
interested in VRML, virtual reality modeling language. Our New York chapter
http://foreverink.com/nyvrmlsig/ would meet weekly or monthly and discuss
ideas, see examples, meet the masters and discuss technique and concept.
Although the entire idea of immersive space appealed to me, and still
does, the tools left me completely cold. I could use them a little, I just
didn't like to do it, I got little satisfaction from sitting working with a
computer, I need physical interactivity. I preferred the tools and material=
s
with which I was long and comfortably familiar. Learning this new thing
expanded the way I see the old one but I didn't want to change.
A friend is a computer scientist and we've explored ways of input that us=
e
your entire body but again I prefer the solidity of clay or paper or
plaster.
Flat screen 3d tools provide distant physical feedback and are tediously
slow. Speed would have changed as I improved had I really gotten into it,
but the translation to thinking in numbers and coordinates never worked for
me. And it takes a long time for that transition to become second sense,
like the surgeon operating. And the really good stuff was done by people wh=
o
had their programming down too, like those at Pixar where they make the too=
l
to get the effect, not let the tool determine the effect.
> How many of you continue to use a pictorial journal for playing with
your
> ceramic ideas?
I keep several journals and sketchbooks. And physical clippings or swipes
as well. I save computer images to folders or iPhoto and either refer to
them on the computer as I work or I may print them out.
Kathy
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