Les on wed 23 dec 09
Lee - there are a few of us "Seniors" that have been potting for =3D
several years and thankfully retired with enough to keep the bailiff =3D
away. But to suggest that things are tough nowadays must prove that you =
=3D
are unaware of the history in Canada and the U.S.A. There were some =3D
times for many of us that made it through the "Dirty 30's" that know =3D
what tough times really were.
We love it today!
Les in Nanoose Bay, B.C. (Vancouver Island)
p.s. - ask our friend Tony Clennell about how his Uncle and Aunt had it =3D
a few years ago ... I'm sure it was not easy for them.
On 2009-12-23, at 3:35 PM, Lee Love wrote:
> Folks who pot in their part-time for 30 years before they do it
> fulltime and don't have to do it to put bread on the table, don't have
> a clue about what it takes to make a living. Especially in these
> days.
Lee Love on wed 23 dec 09
On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 8:23 PM, Les wrote:
>Canada and the U.S.A. =3DA0There were some times for many of >us that made=
i=3D
t through the "Dirty 30's" that know what tough >times really were.
Les, we all have different life experiences. If you think it is
easy to start as a full time potter today, you need to ask someone who
is doing it. One of the big advantages young potters had in Mashiko
was national health care. Folks could get by wholesaling to shops in
town and still have insurance so they could raise a family.
And if you think it was tough in the USA during the '30s/'40s, you
need to read about Europe and Asia. (I am reading a compendium of
stories about Shimaoka's life. It is incredible that he survived
Burma.)
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Lee Love on wed 23 dec 09
Les,
Maybe you haven't spent much time around young potters. I
did some in Mashiko, and also at the Northern Clay Center. Tony's
advice about going to the boonies to make stuff for seven years, to
get the kinks out, makes some sense.
A young potter I was mentoring, after working at NCC for
several years after his BFA, did a residency in Missoula and then
headed out East to work with Chris Gustin and learn his anagama. I
wanted to help him go study in Mashiko, but he is interested in
getting more experience under his belt.
I am happy to have started a couple decades ago. My first 10
years were part time, but I have done nothing but pottery since the
end of 1999. The first 10 years was a good transitional period,
working halftime at other work.
I can't imagine jumping into fulltime pottery work right out
of school in this economic climate. I'd imagine it would be better
to start out half time. Unless you have some cash to carry you for
several years.
Personally, I'd rather be starting here all over at the bottom
of the economic curve, rather than the top. Except for national
health care in Japan, every other economic factor is better here in
the States. We have a huge educated public because of the work of
Warren MacKenzie, and only a fraction of the potters you had to
compete with in Japan.
The entire time I was in Mashiko, the economic situation for
potters deteriorated every year. Most of the foreign potters either
went home or took up teaching english. One friend said a lucky
Mashiko potter was one whose wife was a truck driver. So, things
seem so much better here. I am fortunate.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
tony clennell on wed 23 dec 09
I'm feeling a bit nostalgic right now. Over the past 3 years I would
head along The Mormon Trail to USU in Logan, Utah. With two days of
hard driving I could make it to Cheyenne, Wyoming, a good nights sleep
and then over Elk Pass to the Continental Divide. The Divide is one of
the most hauntingly beautiful places on earth. I would have in my
truck a sheepskin, thermal blanket, water, flares, candles, matches,
chocolate bars and a flask of bourbon. If you have trouble there you
are dead. Take a compass and draw a 50 mile radius from almost
anywhere there and your only customers will be antelope, deer,
magpies, coyotes, some rabbits and some tumbling, tumbling tumbleweed.
Just past Green River I would take a short cut to take me thru the
canyons to Logan. Along the way there were old abandoned gas stations,
welding shops, litte schools and churches. If I were 27 again I would
locate there. You could buy a place for less than the price of a
chainsaw. I tell my students they should do that! They say "Where will
I get my cafe latte with cinnamon sprinkles?Where is the closest Thai
restaurant?Who will see my new sheepskin UG boots and my Gibaud jeans?
Where will I sell my pottery? I tell them you're not good enuff to
afford a place within a 50 mile radius of a major center. You make
good work but you can't make enuff good work to support a
house/studio in an urban area unless you have independent means or
another job. Any house within 50 miles of a major city in Canada is
over $200,000.
So you had a kitchen sale and sold everything you had to your friends,
relatives, neighbours. That's great but can you make $50,000 worth of
pots and sell them. I'm going out on a limb and saying $50,000 is
minimum of what you're going to need to make and sell.
Go to Green River, Wyoming with someone you love and make pots. It
will take you 7 years full time to get good enuff to make a living and
15 years full time to establish a look. At least then when you move to
the urban area you will have the skills to make a living in the rat
race.
David H sent me a book Moving to the country and growing weird. It is
what many of us did. I developed my skills in an old field stone
stable with a dirt floor and a 45 gallon wood stove. We wanted to be
potters that much.
Maybe time will change again.
Cheers,
Tony
--
http://sourcherrypottery.com
http://smokieclennell.blogspot.com
Workshop Feb 5,6,7 Mudbucket Pottery
Myrtle Beach, SC
info@mudbucketpottery.com
Workshop Feb 13th
Tucker's Pottery Supply-Lies, lies and more lies
info@tuckerspottery.com
Lee Love on wed 23 dec 09
On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 11:34 AM, tony clennell w=
=3D
rote:
> will take you 7 years full time to get good enuff to make a living and
> 15 years full time to establish a look. At least then when you move to
> the urban area you will have the skills to make a living in the rat
> race.
Tony knows what he is talking about. If you are just starting out,
trying to make a go of the pottery business without a retirement
pension or a government check from teaching to subsidize yourself, you
need to have a little business savvy.
If you want advice that pertains to what you want to do, talk to
someone who started in a similar situation as you find yourself.
Folks who pot in their part-time for 30 years before they do it
fulltime and don't have to do it to put bread on the table, don't have
a clue about what it takes to make a living. Especially in these
days.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Joseph Bennion on wed 23 dec 09
Been there and done all that, not at age 27 but at 24 with a 20 year old Mo=
=3D
rmon girl painter form California. Those were the days, hauling pots and ba=
=3D
bies to fairs from Denver to Vegas and from Boise to Scottsdale. Rural Utah=
=3D
was and still is as unlikely a place to making a living on any kind of art=
=3D
as you could find. 33 years later the kids are raised and we still make en=
=3D
ds meet on the pots and paintings we put out there. The difference is now I=
=3D
don't much sell anywhere except out my own front door. The best advice I c=
=3D
an give after getting your work out of the "hey look at me I can make a pot=
=3D
" stage to solid work that really should be for sale is to stay put. I get =
=3D
traffic because I have been in the same place for over three decades and pe=
=3D
ople know I am here. So pick a place that you have fallen in love with and =
=3D
can stay in. As I have said before on this list keep track of your people a=
=3D
nd develop a relationship with them. Make yourself their potter,
someone they will bring their friends to.Nice post Tony.=3DA0Joe the Potte=
r
Joseph Bennion=3D20
=3D0AHorseshoe Mountain Pottery
=3D0AMom's Stuff Healing Salve=3D20
=3D0APO Box 186 =3D20
=3D0ASpring City, Utah 84662 =
=3D
=3D20
=3D0A435-462-2708=3D20
=3D0Awww.horseshoemountainpottery.com
--- On Wed, 12/23/09, tony clennell wrote:
From: tony clennell
Subject: Green River, Wyoming
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Date: Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 9:34 AM
I'm feeling a bit nostalgic right now. Over the past 3 years I would
head along The Mormon Trail to=3DA0 USU in Logan, Utah. With two days of
hard driving I could make it to Cheyenne, Wyoming, a good nights sleep
and then over Elk Pass to the Continental Divide. The Divide is one of
the most hauntingly beautiful places on earth. I would have in my
truck a sheepskin, thermal blanket, water, flares, candles, matches,
chocolate bars and a flask of bourbon. If you have trouble there you
are dead. Take a compass and draw a 50 mile radius from almost
anywhere there and your only customers will be antelope, deer,
magpies, coyotes, some rabbits and some tumbling, tumbling tumbleweed.
Just past Green River I would take a short cut to take me thru the
canyons to Logan. Along the way there were old abandoned gas stations,
welding shops, litte schools and churches. If I were 27 again I would
locate there. You could buy a place for less than the price of a
chainsaw. I tell my students they should do that! They say "Where will
I get my cafe latte with cinnamon sprinkles?Where is the closest Thai
restaurant?Who will see my new sheepskin UG boots and my Gibaud jeans?
Where will I sell my pottery? I tell them you're not good enuff to
afford a place within a 50 mile radius of a major center. You make
good work=3DA0 but you can't make enuff good work to support a
house/studio in an urban area unless you have independent means or
another job. Any house within 50 miles of a major city in Canada is
over $200,000.
So you had a kitchen sale and sold everything you had to your friends,
relatives, neighbours. That's great but can you make $50,000 worth of
pots and sell them. I'm going out on a limb and saying $50,000 is
minimum of what you're going to need to make and sell.
Go to Green River, Wyoming with someone you love and make pots. It
will take you 7 years full time to get good enuff to make a living and
15 years full time to establish a look. At least then when you move to
the urban area you will have the skills to make a living in the rat
race.
David H sent me a book Moving to the country and growing weird. It is
what many of us did. I developed my skills in an old field stone
stable with a dirt floor and a 45 gallon wood stove. We wanted to be
potters that much.
Maybe time will change again.
Cheers,
Tony
--
http://sourcherrypottery.com
http://smokieclennell.blogspot.com
Workshop Feb 5,6,7 Mudbucket Pottery
Myrtle Beach, SC
info@mudbucketpottery.com
Workshop Feb 13th
Tucker's Pottery Supply-Lies, lies and more lies
info@tuckerspottery.com
=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A
Steve Mills on thu 24 dec 09
I too would hate to have to start now.
I started potting in Bath in '67, with no formal training except a Post
Diploma course in ceramics, no training period with another potter, and onl=
=3D
y
a short time doing a bit part-time. Straight in at the deep end!
It took me six years before I had to give up the part-time jobs and
concentrate on the increasing orders, even so Kate worked nights for a
couple of years after that to help.
We couldn't get away with that now; rents were cheap then.
They're through the roof now!
Steve M
2009/12/24 Lee Love
> Les,
>
> Maybe you haven't spent much time around young potters. I
> did some in Mashiko, and also at the Northern Clay Center. Tony's
> advice about going to the boonies to make stuff for seven years, to
> get the kinks out, makes some sense.
>
> A young potter I was mentoring, after working at NCC for
> several years after his BFA, did a residency in Missoula and then
> headed out East to work with Chris Gustin and learn his anagama. I
> wanted to help him go study in Mashiko, but he is interested in
> getting more experience under his belt.
>
> I am happy to have started a couple decades ago. My first 10
> years were part time, but I have done nothing but pottery since the
> end of 1999. The first 10 years was a good transitional period,
> working halftime at other work.
>
> I can't imagine jumping into fulltime pottery work right out
> of school in this economic climate. I'd imagine it would be better
> to start out half time. Unless you have some cash to carry you for
> several years.
>
> Personally, I'd rather be starting here all over at the bottom
> of the economic curve, rather than the top. Except for national
> health care in Japan, every other economic factor is better here in
> the States. We have a huge educated public because of the work of
> Warren MacKenzie, and only a fraction of the potters you had to
> compete with in Japan.
>
> The entire time I was in Mashiko, the economic situation for
> potters deteriorated every year. Most of the foreign potters either
> went home or took up teaching english. One friend said a lucky
> Mashiko potter was one whose wife was a truck driver. So, things
> seem so much better here. I am fortunate.
>
> --
> Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
> http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
>
> "Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97t=
hat is, =3D
"The
> land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
> within itself." -- John O'Donohue
>
--=3D20
Steve
Bath
UK
www.mudslinger.me.uk
Vince Pitelka on thu 24 dec 09
I think it is a wonderful thing if a student can get out of a studio
ceramics training program (academic or otherwise) and go straight to work a=
s
a studio potter, making a living from the get-go, but it rarely happens tha=
t
way. In some cases a young potter is able to work for a more established
potter or a community studio, learning the ropes and the market and buildin=
g
skills. A great many young potters work part-time or full-time at another
job while building their studio, skills, and market, and this should not be
seen as any sort of subversion from their plans, as long as they remain
active in their studio work in order to reach their ultimate objective in a
timely fashion. That was the course I took, and I have no complaints about
it.
When I got out of Humboldt State University in 1971 with a BA in art, I was
not very well prepared to become a potter. We were idealistic hippies, and
being an art major had mostly been about having fun. There was a great
atmosphere in the Humboldt State pot shop, and some very good work was bein=
g
done, but I learned little technical information about clay and glazes, and
almost nothing about building or firing kilns. I had to learn that by the
seat of my pants, and I did so enthusiastically, but in my case it would
have been a big mistake to start right off trying to be a full-time potter.
Back then Humboldt had an Industrial Arts program, and I took a technical
welding course. I had always been a good mechanic, so when I saw a job
listing for a mechanic/welder for the City of Arcata just before I
graduated, I applied for the job, and I got it. During the time I worked
for the city, Linda and I bought our first house, Morgan was born, we sold
that house and bought a bigger one with a huge yard in Blue Lake, CA, and I
built a studio, a big car kiln, a wheel, and my pugmill. When I quite the
job with the City, I had a comfortable, well-equipped studio, and everythin=
g
was paid for (except for the mortgage on the house, which was $200 a month)=
.
It still took several years to really get the pottery business up to speed,
but I carefully examined the regional markets, and found a big demand in th=
e
gourmet kitchen stores appearing up and down northern California and
southern Oregon. At the same time, we started having studio sales twice a
year, and built up a big local following.
There are a lot of different ways to approach all of this. The way I did i=
t
was just what evolved in my particular situation. I just fell into the job
with the City, but I was qualified, and I was lucky to get it. It proved t=
o
be pretty ideal. I certainly could not say that I approached it with a
sense of careful planning beforehand, but once I was in the City job I did
start to make plans. I knew that things would be tight when I started
potting full-time, and they were, but having that nice fully-equipped studi=
o
was critically important. That's what made things work out so well. When
the kitchen stores started responding to my wares, I had the studio and the
kiln to keep up with the demand.
Looking back on my experience, and having seen so many other young potters
starting out, I cannot overstress the importance of careful planning. Also=
,
as mentioned earlier, a young potter should not feel like they are divertin=
g
from their ultimate goals if they take a part-time or full-time job in some
other area while building up their studio business. That's just facing the
realities of the current economy. Starting out in a drafty converted
chicken coop with crappy equipment is no way to get off the ground as a
studio artist. You have to invest your time, money, and hard work in your
own future, and there's no way around that. For anyone who has a good work
ethic and is willing to do that, you probably won't get rich, but the payof=
f
in lifestyle and personal satisfaction can be huge.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
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