David Hendley on wed 30 dec 09
There are so many variables in ceramics, from style and
methods to materials and firing.
You can't do it all. Some parameters must be set or you
will be all over the map.
To me, the most sensible non-variable is clay, and it only
makes sense that you use local clay. It seems crazy to
base years, decades, even a lifetime of work on a claybody
that is shipped across the country or across an ocean.
For me, that means that I will always use my local East
Texas clay, mined within 50 miles of my shop. Sometimes
I am annoyed by its shortcomings or am seduced by visions
of gleaming translucent porcelain. No way would I act
on such desires. I know my clay, it is very inexpensive, and
by far the most energy-efficient claybody I can use. That's
important to me. It just seems right.
David Hendley
david@farmpots.com
http://www.farmpots.com
----- Original Message -----
> my take has always been.
> buy from the closest source.
>
> i would never ship wet clay long distances.
>
> you will have to learn to use, modify or make
> glaze for whatever purchased clay you are using.
> it is always the same struggle to get what you want.
>
> so, buy close and get to work with whatever
> they have that is close to what you want/need..
>
> it will be no better or more successful shipping from south america.
>
> it has been my same take on shipping clay/glaze materials from
> england, at great
> expense. i just won't do it. i quit doing that, years back.
mel jacobson on wed 30 dec 09
my take has always been.
buy from the closest source.
i would never ship wet clay long distances.
you will have to learn to use, modify or make
glaze for whatever purchased clay you are using.
it is always the same struggle to get what you want.
so, buy close and get to work with whatever
they have that is close to what you want/need..
it will be no better or more successful shipping from south america.
it has been my same take on shipping clay/glaze materials from
england, at great
expense. i just won't do it. i quit doing that, years back.
domestic materials work just fine in most cases. i sort of say..
`if continental clay, or minnesota clay does not have it on hand, i don't
need it.` and, in most cases, the easily acquired local materials are the
best.
consistency of product is really important to me.
custer fels
om5
silica
epk, they seem to work just fine for me. and, they have for
near 50 years.
if joe koons wants me to test something from laguna,
he slides it on a truck heading to ohio, then it goes to
minnesota clay. i pick it up there. the trucks are going
there anyway. and, not full.
mike meyers has been very kind to me, sorta leaves stuff
on his dock. good fellow. i send laguna a check for my part.
but that is a rare scenario. but works for joe and me. we pay
our own way, but use the trucks that are coming to minnesota clay
anyway. i would never ship a ton of custom clay from California,
would cost 4 times as much. and be a total waste of trucking time and ener=
gy.
mel
from: minnetonka, mn
website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
clayart link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
new book: http://www.21stcenturykilns.com
Chris Campbell on thu 31 dec 09
>So you are getting close to 2 lbs of wet clay
> for each lb. of dry clay purchased, making
> that extra lb. cost just $.03 .
AARRGGHH !!!!
Ok so for the last time this year I will crab
about business ... will someone please consider
factoring in what it costs you to properly mix
the clay?
No, I am not talking about sloshing it around
in a bucket with an old turkey leg.
I am talking about doing it right ... get the right
percentages, the proper consistency and the full
blending. De-airing is another joy that requires
a machine.
Why do we miss the fact that the clay suppliers
might actually be earning their keep?
We don't always have to invent the wheel.
Now to bed a full two hours before midnight
but it is New Years Day somewhere so its OK.
Cheers
Chris Campbell - in North Carolina
Chris Campbell Pottery LLC
Designs in Colored Porcelain
www.ccpottery.com
http://neriagechris.blogspot.com/
Creative Ways With Colored Clays
PRE-NCECA WEEKEND WORKSHOP
March 26, 27 & 28, 2010
Clay Art Center
40 Beech Street
Port Chester, NY 10573
914.937.2047 x222
http://www.clayartcenter.org
SUMMER WORKSHOP
August 15-21, 2010
Touchstone Center for Crafts
1049 Wharton Furnace Road
Farmington PA 15437
1.800.721.0177
http://www.touchstonecrafts.com
Phoenix Rising Farm on thu 31 dec 09
To that end:
With oil prices skyrocketing (again, sigh)
and diesel running $3.25/gallon (here in Maine yesterday)
perhaps it's time to re-introduce an idea to the clay manufacturers.
It might behoove them to start shipping DRY ingredients, premixed
to those of us that either have mixers or mixer/puggers, or simply want
to mix our own clay.
Savings come to the producer in the form of not having to add water and
mix, saving labor, money and water (which will be much more costly in=3D20
the future).
Savings come to the consumer in not having to pay exorbitant shipping=3D20
costs for
something they can easily supply (water is heavy!)
In addition, there is the benefit to the consumer of not having all the=3D2=
0
plastic bags
and cardboard boxes to deal with (hopefully recycle) from having wet=3D20
clay shipped.
Instead, 50 pound paper sacks that can be recycled easily in existing=3D20
programs.
Then too, there is the added benefit that by mixing your own clay,=3D20
either by machine
or by foot _you_ control the consistency. Softer clay for those=3D20
that require it for their process
(throwing), harder clay for those that need it (handbuilding and=3D20
extruding), lightly moistened
for still others (ram-press?) and thinned appropriately for molding.
Yes, there are issues with liability "...my clay didn't come out the way=3D=
20
you said it would..."
solved by including on the bag a small printed blurb "suggesting" the=3D20
amount of water to add per
bag, how to mix, etc. with a disclaimer of liability from the=3D20
manufacturer (which will appear as if by magic anyway).
And there are always those who for whatever reason, choose not to (or=3D20
cannot) mix their
own clay in their facilities and must buy wet premix.
After all, we don't buy wet plaster .
Just a thought.
Happy New Year all,
Wayne Seidl
a balmy 5=3DB0F in eastern Maine
mel jacobson wrote:
> my take has always been.
> buy from the closest source.
>
> i would never ship wet clay long distances.
>
> you will have to learn to use, modify or make
> glaze for whatever purchased clay you are using.
> it is always the same struggle to get what you want.
>
> so, buy close and get to work with whatever
> they have that is close to what you want/need..
> SNIP
> i would never ship a ton of custom clay from California,
> would cost 4 times as much. and be a total waste of trucking time and=3D=
20
> energy.
> mel
> from: minnetonka, mn
> website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
> clayart link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
> new book: http://www.21stcenturykilns.com
>
William & Susan Schran User on thu 31 dec 09
On 12/31/09 9:05 AM, "Phoenix Rising Farm" wrote:
> With oil prices skyrocketing (again, sigh)
> and diesel running $3.25/gallon (here in Maine yesterday)
> perhaps it's time to re-introduce an idea to the clay manufacturers.
> It might behoove them to start shipping DRY ingredients, premixed
> to those of us that either have mixers or mixer/puggers, or simply want
> to mix our own clay.
Wayne,
There is one company I know that does this already:
They include a statement on this moist clay index page:
"All of our clays are available in dry form. The price is increased by $.0=
3
per pound and the Non-Toxic seal does not apply to theses clays."
Not certain why the clay in a dry form would cost $.03 more per pound.
Perhaps because it takes more labor to blend the dry clays in smaller
batches and it is outside of their normal production process.
Bill
--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
James Freeman on thu 31 dec 09
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 9:05 AM, Phoenix Rising Farm wro=
te:
To that end:
With oil prices skyrocketing (again, sigh)
and diesel running $3.25/gallon (here in Maine yesterday)
perhaps it's time to re-introduce an idea to the clay manufacturers.
It might behoove them to start shipping DRY ingredients, premixed
to those of us that either have mixers or mixer/puggers, or simply want
to mix our own clay.
Wayne...
Rovin does this now (www.rovinceramics.com). They will sell any of their
clay bodies in dry form. It is 5 cents per pound more for any given body,
but considering that you are not paying 30-50 cents per pound for water, it
is way more economical.
I use their pre-mixed RO-01 You Betcha mix for pretty much everything. I
also ordered 200 pounds of the same clay but in dry form, asking them to
leave out the grog, so that I can quickly mix up matching slip.
Take care. Have a SAFE and happy new year.
...James
James Freeman
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice. I should
not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/clayart/
>
>
Vince Pitelka on thu 31 dec 09
Bill Schrann wrote:
"Not certain why the clay in a dry form would cost $.03 more per pound.
Perhaps because it takes more labor to blend the dry clays in smaller
batches and it is outside of their normal production process."
Bill -
When you buy a mixed claybody in dry form you are getting quite a bit more
clay per pound as compared with moist clay, which is about 25% water.
That's the catch-22 with moist clay from the supplier - you are paying the
price of having them mix clay that is ready to use, but you are also paying
for about 25% water by weight. I have no idea how they came up with the
$.03 per pound more, but it still seems like a pretty good deal to me.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Hank Taylor on thu 31 dec 09
> "All of our clays are available in dry form. The price is increased by
> $.03
> per pound and the Non-Toxic seal does not apply to theses clays."
>
> Not certain why the clay in a dry form would cost $.03 more per pound.
> Perhaps because it takes more labor to blend the dry clays in smaller
> batches and it is outside of their normal production process.
Bill ,
Just think about it . When buying wet clay, close to 50% is just water=
,
so you are only getting 50% Clay in that pound. If you buy dry clay you
are getting a full LB of dry material ,which will mix up to around 2 lbs o=
f
finished clay. So you are getting close to 2 lbs of wet clay for each lb. o=
f
dry clay purchased, making that extra lb. cost just $.03 . Did that muddy u=
p
the water enough, I know I'm confused now. Since the Dr. started me on meds
for my HDL and LDL , my train of though gets derailed often.
Hank Taylor
Woodshed Pottery
Lee Love on thu 31 dec 09
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 8:05 AM, Phoenix Rising Farm wr=
=3D
ote:
> To that end:
> With oil prices skyrocketing (again, sigh)
> and diesel running $3.25/gallon (here in Maine yesterday)
> perhaps it's time to re-introduce an idea to the clay manufacturers.
> It might behoove them to start shipping DRY ingredients, premixed
> to those of us that either have mixers or mixer/puggers, or simply want
> to mix our own clay.
They do. I thought Mel mentioned this. Continental sells their
best selling claybodies dry:
http://www.continentalclay.com/products.php?cat_id=3D3D415&sub_categoryID=
=3D3D2
http://www.continentalclay.com/products.php?cat_id=3D3D415&sub_categoryID=
=3D3D2=3D
&PP=3D3D10
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Lee Love on thu 31 dec 09
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Hank Taylor wrote:
> Bill ,
> =3DA0 =3DA0Just think about it . When buying wet clay, close to 50% is ju=
st w=3D
ater,
> so you are only getting =3DA050% Clay in that pound. =3DA0If you buy dry =
clay=3D
you
> are getting a full LB of =3DA0dry material ,which will mix up to around 2=
l=3D
bs of
> finished clay. So you are getting close to 2 lbs of wet clay for each lb.=
=3D
of
> dry clay purchased, making that extra lb.
It doesn't exactly break down that way. Clay companies are
accommodating, but not stupid:
At Continental Clay
Wet: fireclay stoneware 50lbs: $21.83
Same clay dry 50lbs $24.97
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Ingeborg Foco on thu 31 dec 09
Hank,
Generally speaking moist clay is 20% water - 25% at most but clearly not
50%. If that's what you are buying well you need to find another supplier.
Happy New Year.
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 3:24 PM, Hank Taylor wrote:
>
>
>
> Bill ,
> Just think about it . When buying wet clay, close to 50% is just water=
,
> so you are only getting 50% Clay in that pound. If you buy dry clay you
> are getting a full LB of dry material ,which will mix up to around 2 lbs
> of
> finished clay. So you are getting close to 2 lbs of wet clay for each lb.
> of
> dry clay purchased, making that extra lb. cost just $.03 . Did that muddy
> up
> the water enough, I know I'm confused now. Since the Dr. started me on me=
ds
> for my HDL and LDL , my train of though gets derailed often.
>
> Hank Taylor
> Woodshed Pottery
>
--
Sincerely,
Ingeborg
http://www.thepottersworkshop.com
Phoenix Rising Farm on fri 1 jan 10
Wowowowow!!!!!
I never thought of using the turkeys to mix the clay!
Do they take a lot of training?
Can I substitute chickens?
Or just keep using them to knead the bread dough?
Talk about saving labor!
"Ok Peckerheads! Time to earn your feed!
And no pooping in the clay, ya'hear?"
ROFL
Wayne
Chris Campbell wrote:
>> So you are getting close to 2 lbs of wet clay
>> for each lb. of dry clay purchased, making
>> that extra lb. cost just $.03 .
>>
>
> AARRGGHH !!!!
>
> Ok so for the last time this year I will crab
> about business ... will someone please consider
> factoring in what it costs you to properly mix
> the clay?
>
> No, I am not talking about sloshing it around
> in a bucket with an old turkey leg.
>
> I am talking about doing it right ... get the right
> percentages, the proper consistency and the full
> blending. De-airing is another joy that requires
> a machine.
>
> Why do we miss the fact that the clay suppliers
> might actually be earning their keep?
>
> We don't always have to invent the wheel.
>
> Now to bed a full two hours before midnight
> but it is New Years Day somewhere so its OK.
>
> Cheers
> Chris Campbell - in North Carolina
>
James Freeman on fri 1 jan 10
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 9:58 PM, Chris Campbell wr=
ote:
>So you are getting close to 2 lbs of wet clay
> for each lb. of dry clay purchased, making
> that extra lb. cost just $.03 .
AARRGGHH !!!!
Ok so for the last time this year I will crab
about business ... will someone please consider
factoring in what it costs you to properly mix
the clay?
I stopped mixing my own clay 6 or 7 years ago. I was a Finance major in
college, so still tend to look at economic issues from a finance
perspective. Here is my own reasoning, though your mileage may vary:
Assume a 200 pound batch of dry clay, which will yield about 250 pounds
wet. Further assume that you buy all of your materials in full 50# sacks.
Here is a generic 1960s brown hippie-pot stoneware recipe from my files:
GoldArt 30
OM4 20
Hawthorn Fireclay 30
RedArt 10
Custer Spar 5
Silica 10
Plus grog to taste 10
At today's prices from Bailey, 200 pounds of the above raw ingredient mix
will cost about $52.30, plus Bailey's outrageous shipping charges, which we
will ignore. This assumes you purchased full sacks which you then have to
haul around, store, lift and pour, then store the excess, like the 40# of
leftover custer, the 30# of leftover RedArt, etc. (If you order just the
small quantities you need, then you are already upside-down). So, beyond
the $52.30 for the materials actually in your bucket, you will have an
additional $54.20 tied up in excess raw material inventory.
Let's assume the cheapest possible mixing system, 5 gallon pails and a dril=
l
and mud mixer that you already own. This stuff would cost you about $100 i=
f
you had to buy it, but we will ignore this expense too. To mix up 200
pounds of dry ingredients in 5 gallon pails, you will have to measure out
probably 5 or 6 small batches, mix each one into slurry, pour it out onto
something absorbent, and wash all of your buckets and equipment. You are
probably talking an easy 3 hours here. Where to pour out all of the slurry
is another matter. My plaster slab, which is about 2 x 2 feet, will hold
about 50 pounds worth of slurry, so I hope you have about 5 of them in your
workspace.
Now let's look at pre-mixed clay. Rovin sells their RO-20, a brown
hippie-pot stoneware, for 44 cents per pound for 200-499 pounds. Thus, 250
pounds of mixed clay will cost $110.
Your gross "savings" by mixing the 250 pounds of clay yourself is $110 -
$52.30, or $57.70. I do not know what hourly rate you calculate for your
own time. I assume it is in the range of $20-30 per hour. For our example
though, we will use the lowest possible rate, minimum wage, which I believe
is around $7.25 per hour. Thus, the three hours you invested into mixing
your clay cost you $21.75, thus reducing your "savings" to $35.95. Note
that if you valued your working time at just $20 per hour, your "savings"
would already be negative, but we will ignore this fact for the moment.
So we "saved" $35.95. However, the Rovin clay came de-aired, pugged, and
bagged. How long will it take you to wedge most of the air out of your
clay? How long to form it into blocks and bag it? Right here, you have
again lost your "savings", and this does not even factor in the extra time
and space to store a bunch of odd lumps and blocks of clay rather than nice=
,
neat boxes. It also does not factor in all of the extra wear and tear on
your wrists and body from wedging all of that clay, which certainly counts
for something.
Now what of the folks who say "but I already own a mixer and a pugmill"?
OK, so you saved a couple of hours of labor at $7.25, but you must now
factor in the depreciation and maintenance costs on the machines, the
opportunity cost of the money you have tied up in those machines, the power
they consume, and the extra space you need to house them. These costs, eve=
n
if non-cash, will certainly eat up the money you saved by cutting out a
couple of hours.
And before you mention shipping costs, I will say that they are at best a
wash. The Michigan/Ohio pallet rate tariff is $77 per pallet, up to 2000
pounds per pallet. So a pallet of mixed clay or a pallet of the raw
materials required to make that clay will cost exactly the same amount to
ship. If I order the materials from Bailey, the shipping for the raw
materials will actually be double or triple the pallet rate, as they are
outside of the tariff district. Your own tariffs will be different, but th=
e
math will be the same.
So, from a finance standpoint, it is at best a push to mix your own clay.
Now, lets factor in all of the other cash and non-cash costs. If you mix
your own, you must factor in the opportunity cost of the money you have tie=
d
up in your "leftover" raw materials, as well as the extra required storage
space. Now factor in the wear and tear on your drill and mud mixer. Now
factor in what it is worth to you to not have to breath in all of that dust=
,
and to not have to clean up all of the dust. Factor in what it is worth to
you to save your wrists from all of that extra wedging. Factor in what
happens to the equation if you pay yourself a reasonable wage rate rather
than minimum wage. Factor in what the sheer convenience of pre-mixed clay
is worth to you. I am sure you can come up with many more such intangibles=
.
Any way one looks at this equation, the math just does not come out in favo=
r
of mixing one's own clay. If you assume larger quantities, the math is the
same. If you assume smaller quantities, the case for mixing one's own is
even worse. How can this be? The answer flows from the economies of
scale. You buy your raw materials a few sacks at a time, maybe a ton. A
small clay company like Rovin buys them by the truckload, and a huge compan=
y
like Laguna buys them by the boxcar load. They get the materials much, muc=
h
cheaper than you can. You have to buy an expensive mixer and pugmill that
just sits idle most of the time. The big companies can buy huge, powerful
equipment that can process far more product in a far shorter time, and that
is in use and earning it's keep almost constantly. Thus, their equipment
and depreciation costs per unit of product are far lower than yours. They
have dedicated and specialized facilities, never having to make due or
compromise. Simply put, they can make the product much more economically
than you can. Heck, you could build your own car from scratch too, but it
will cost you at least double what an equivalent vehicle would cost from
Ford or from one of the nationalized automakers, and that's if you pay
yourself nothing for labor.
The only argument for making your own clay that makes sense is a strictly
non-economic one; if you are smart enough and experienced enough, and
willing to do a lot of testing, you can make a custom clay uniquely suited
to your needs and specifications. Even this argument mostly fails, however=
,
when one considers that once you have developed your unique clay body, you
can simply contract almost any of the clay manufacturers to make it for you
(so long as you can order a ton at a time). It also fails when one
considers that many folks are simply using a recipe they got from school, o=
r
a friend, or a book, so they are still fitting the work to the clay rather
than vice versa.
I'm not saying that no one should mix their own clay, just that unless you
are as lucky as David H, who can dig a balanced and usable stoneware clay
right out of his local dirt, it simply makes no economic sense.
Just my thoughts, but it's hard to argue against a calculator.
All the best.
...James
James Freeman
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice. I should
not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/clayart/
gary navarre on fri 1 jan 10
Hay Folks,=3D0A=3D0A Glad this came up because I'm almost out of the clay I=
sav=3D
ed 20 years ago and need to order some more. Can you explain the pallet rat=
=3D
e tariff thing a little more? When I got my 11 kiln shelves shipped from Mi=
=3D
nneapolis 310 miles away on a pallet it was a hundred bucks using U.P. Spec=
=3D
ial Delivery. I'm thinking of getting about a thousand pounds of clay and m=
=3D
aterials all on one pallet. Rovin is almost 500 miles away across 'da Bridg=
=3D
e (bridge fee?) but still in Michigan (8 miles from Wisconsin). It might be=
=3D
quicker going through Chicago. How do I figure which shipping costs less n=
=3D
ot knowing which shipper Rovin would use? Gee, I guess I could just call th=
=3D
em eh? =3D0A =3D0A Oh ya, one more thing. Any recomendations for a high tem=
prea=3D
ture body that doesn't have that 1960's Hippy-brown pot look in wood-firing=
=3D
. One of my sponsor said I need to start disassociating myself from the ide=
=3D
alism of my misspent youth, get a hair cut, and grow up. =3D0A =3D0AGa=
ry N=3D
avarre=3D0ANavarre Pottery=3D0ANavarre Enterprises=3D0ANorway, Michigan, US=
A=3D0Aht=3D
tp://www.youtube.com/GindaUP=3D0Ahttp://public.fotki.com/GindaUP/=3D0A=3D0A=
=3D0A---=3D
On Fri, 1/1/10, James Freeman wrote:=3D0A=
=3D0A>=3D
From: James Freeman =3D0A> Subject: Re: [Cla=
ya=3D
rt] buying porcelain clay=3D0A> To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG=3D0A> Date: Fr=
iday=3D
, January 1, 2010, 9:59 AM=3D0A> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 9:58 PM,=3D0A> Chr=
is C=3D
ampbell wrote:=3D0A> >So you are getting close to =
2 =3D
lbs of wet clay=3D0A> > for each lb. of dry clay purchased, making=3D0A> > =
that=3D
extra lb. cost just $.03 .=3D0A> =3D0A=3D0A> And before you mention shippi=
ng cos=3D
ts, I will say that they=3D0A> are at best a=3D0A> wash.=3DA0 The Michigan/=
Ohio p=3D
allet rate tariff is $77 per=3D0A> pallet, up to 2000=3D0A> pounds per pall=
et.=3D
=3DA0 So a pallet of mixed clay or a=3D0A> pallet of the raw=3D0A> material=
s requ=3D
ired to make that clay will cost exactly the=3D0A> same amount to=3D0A> shi=
p.=3D
=3DA0 If I order the materials from Bailey, the=3D0A> shipping for the raw=
=3D0A> =3D
materials will actually be double or triple the pallet=3D0A> rate, as they =
ar=3D
e=3D0A> outside of the tariff district.=3DA0 Your own tariffs will=3D0A> be=
diffe=3D
rent, but the=3D0A> math will be the same.=3D0A> =3D0A> All the best.=3D0A=
> =3D0A> .=3D
..James=3D0A> =3D0A> James Freeman=3D0A> =3D0A> "All I say is by way of dis=
course, =3D
and nothing by way of=3D0A> advice.=3DA0 I should=3D0A> not speak so boldly=
if it=3D
were my due to be believed."=3D0A> -Michel de Montaigne=3D0A> =3D0A> http:=
//www.=3D
jamesfreemanstudio.com=3D0A> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudi=
o/=3D
=3D0A> http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/clayart/=3D0A> =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A
James Freeman on fri 1 jan 10
Gary...
Yep, just call Rovin. Stephani is probably the one to talk to. I don't
know if being in da' U.P. matters, eh? I'm not an expert on trucking
tariffs, but the way I understand it, trucking rates are regulated by our
benevolent overlords in Washington, and different states have different
rates to different places regardless of which truck line is used. I order
my raw materials from Ohio and my clay from Michigan. Both outfits charge
around $77 per pallet, up to 2000 pounds per pallet, delivered to my door.
I paid about the same rate when I had my huge Laguna spray booth delivered
from a supplier in Florida because it was placed directly on a truck on one
pallet. Bailey wanted about $350 for shipping. A friend who also uses
Rovin clay (Michigan) is at Edinboro U, about 5 or 10 miles past the Ohio
border in PA. The freight on a ton of Rovin clay to Edinboro was around
$300 or $400. He had them ship it instead to some place of business he kne=
w
of just inside the Ohio border for just $77, then drove it the last couple
of miles himself in a couple of trips in his van.
If you want to stick with Rovin clay for your wood fire, I have had very,
very good results from both their RO-01 You Betcha porcelainous stoneware,
and their RO-77 light stoneware (fire clay and tile 6). I have taken the
RO-01 to about cone 15 just for giggles, though it is only rated to cone
10. At 15, flat things like slab trays and platters warped over their wads=
,
but thrown forms were perfect. (Also, don't use seashells as wads at cone
15. They turn into come sort of caustic plasma that actually eats worm
holes and trails right through the clay!) Both clays took cone 12 with no
problems. If you want to see examples of wood fired pots in both of those
clays, go to my Flickr page (www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio), the=
n
scroll half-way down page 3. The Bumpy Jar, Vase, and Small Vase are all
RO-01 You Betcha. The Jar is RO-77 light stoneware, all to cone 12 using
barn wood and oak flooring scraps.
I've been following your progress on clayart and sometimes on youtube. Bes=
t
of luck with the project. Oh, and DON'T grow up! You are only young once,
but you can be immature forever!
Be well.
...James
James Freeman
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice. I should
not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/clayart/
On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 1:08 PM, gary navarre
wrote:
> Hay Folks,
>
> Glad this came up because I'm almost out of the clay I saved 20 years ag=
o
> and need to order some more. Can you explain the pallet rate tariff thing=
a
> little more? When I got my 11 kiln shelves shipped from Minneapolis 310
> miles away on a pallet it was a hundred bucks using U.P. Special Delivery=
.
> I'm thinking of getting about a thousand pounds of clay and materials all=
on
> one pallet. Rovin is almost 500 miles away across 'da Bridge (bridge fee?=
)
> but still in Michigan (8 miles from Wisconsin). It might be quicker going
> through Chicago. How do I figure which shipping costs less not knowing wh=
ich
> shipper Rovin would use? Gee, I guess I could just call them eh?
>
> Oh ya, one more thing. Any recomendations for a high tempreature body th=
at
> doesn't have that 1960's Hippy-brown pot look in wood-firing. One of my
> sponsor said I need to start disassociating myself from the idealism of m=
y
> misspent youth, get a hair cut, and grow up.
>
>
Julie Brooks on fri 1 jan 10
Guys,
I agree!!! So here is some accurate information but FYI it is all about=
=3D
Laguna=3D20
Clay Company IN OHIO.
Why would you ship Laguna Clay from California, when we have a facility=
=3D
in=3D20
Ohio? Just tell Matt what Cali Clay you like and he can hook you up with=
=3D
a=3D20
similar Miller or Laguna/Ohio body...
61020 Leyshon Drive
Byesville, OH 43723
Toll-Free: (800) 762-4354
He will also be able to help you find a local distributor, which will sav=
=3D
e you big=3D20
on shipping. Carbon foot print? EVERY clay manufacturer must ship SOME =
=3D
of=3D20
the raw materials used for clay formulation. How much energy is used to=3D=
20=3D
manufacture and ship a pugmill and mixer...or to make the materials to bu=
=3D
ild=3D20
the space they are housed in...heat and cool the space.
Yes, water is heavy...that is why we offer any clay body bagged dry AND=
=3D
=3D20
will mix your proprietary formula, test and bag it. You get a much more=3D=
20=3D
affordable per pound price and don't have to store a bunch of partial raw=
=3D
=3D20
material bags. The service is called custom blends...e mail, Jon Brooks =
=3D
the=3D20
president of Laguna Clay Co. for assistance with your=3D20
needs...jon@lagunaclay.com
The following is text which has been on our website for many years...
______________________________________________________________
CUSTOM CLAY FORMULAS AND SPECIAL ORDER CLAYS (MOIST OR DRY)
CUSTOMER FORMULATED CLAYS:
We offer custom mixing, moist or dry, of your formula. To prevent any=3D20
misunderstanding, your formula should be submitted in writing. All custom=
=3D
er
formulas are kept in confidence and will not be made for any other party=3D=
20=3D
without your permission. We have a large selection of raw materials which=
=3D
are
listed in the Raw Materials section of this catalog. If your formula requ=
=3D
ires a=3D20
material we do not carry, we can recommend a suitable substitute, or you
may supply the material from a different source. In either case, we canno=
=3D
t=3D20
accept responsibility for its successful use in the formula. There are so=
=3D
me
restrictions on materials we are unable to run through our moist clay=3D20
equipment; these include some stains, extremely coarse grogs, gypsum,=3D20
fiberglass,
nylon fibers, and sewer pipe clay.
LAGUNA FORMULAS:
Our laboratory will assist and advise you in the formulation of clays, or=
=3D
we will=3D20
modify Laguna stock clay formulas to meet your specific requirements. (Al=
=3D
l
such formulas remain the property of Laguna Clay Co.)
LAGUNA DISCONTINUED CLAYS:
We base our selection of stock clays on sales records, but we realize tha=
=3D
t a=3D20
discontinued clay may be the =3D93perfect=3D94 clay for some of our custome=
rs=3D
. Most
discontinued stock clays are available on a special order basis (see belo=
=3D
w).
LAGUNA STOCK CLAYS=3D97SPECIAL CONSISTENCY:
You may Special Order any Laguna stock clay made to your special firmness=
=3D
=3D20
(one ton increments + one ton minimum). There is a special order charge
on orders under 4 tons. Please allow 14 to 21+ days for production.
__________________________________________________________________
Need a leg up to choose the right clay for your purpose? Because=3D20
manufactured clays DO work stupendously well for a great many individuals=
=3D
=3D20
and businesses...
http://www.lagunaclay.com/catalog/pdf/lcc_guidetoclay.pdf
And BTW where does you plaster ship from?=3D20
Also, for those of you who use Laguna Clay and equipment...we are alway=
=3D
s=3D20
happy to get new submissions for Laguna Featured Artists. The web addres=
=3D
s is
http://www.lagunaclay.com/featured-artists/
Happy New Year!!!
Julie Brooks
On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 09:05:35 -0500, Phoenix Rising Farm=3D20
wrote:
>To that end:
>With oil prices skyrocketing (again, sigh)
>and diesel running $3.25/gallon (here in Maine yesterday)
>perhaps it's time to re-introduce an idea to the clay manufacturers.
>It might behoove them to start shipping DRY ingredients, premixed
>to those of us that either have mixers or mixer/puggers, or simply want
>to mix our own clay.
>
>Savings come to the producer in the form of not having to add water and
>mix, saving labor, money and water (which will be much more costly in=3D20=
=3D
>the future).
>Savings come to the consumer in not having to pay exorbitant shipping=3D20=
=3D
>costs for
>something they can easily supply (water is heavy!)
>
>In addition, there is the benefit to the consumer of not having all the=3D=
20=3D
>plastic bags
>and cardboard boxes to deal with (hopefully recycle) from having wet=3D20
>clay shipped.
>Instead, 50 pound paper sacks that can be recycled easily in existing=3D20=
=3D
>programs.
>Then too, there is the added benefit that by mixing your own clay,=3D20
>either by machine
>or by foot _you_ control the consistency. Softer clay for those=3D20
>that require it for their process
>(throwing), harder clay for those that need it (handbuilding and=3D20
>extruding), lightly moistened
>for still others (ram-press?) and thinned appropriately for molding.
>
>Yes, there are issues with liability "...my clay didn't come out the way=
=3D
=3D20
>you said it would..."
>solved by including on the bag a small printed blurb "suggesting" the=3D20=
=3D
>amount of water to add per
>bag, how to mix, etc. with a disclaimer of liability from the=3D20
>manufacturer (which will appear as if by magic anyway).
>And there are always those who for whatever reason, choose not to (or=3D20=
=3D
>cannot) mix their
>own clay in their facilities and must buy wet premix.
>
>After all, we don't buy wet plaster .
>
>Just a thought.
>
>Happy New Year all,
>Wayne Seidl
>a balmy 5=3DB0F in eastern Maine
>
>
>
>mel jacobson wrote:
>> my take has always been.
>> buy from the closest source.
>>
>> i would never ship wet clay long distances.
>>
>> you will have to learn to use, modify or make
>> glaze for whatever purchased clay you are using.
>> it is always the same struggle to get what you want.
>>
>> so, buy close and get to work with whatever
>> they have that is close to what you want/need..
>> SNIP
>
>> i would never ship a ton of custom clay from California,
>> would cost 4 times as much. and be a total waste of trucking time and=
=3D
=3D20
>> energy.
>> mel
>> from: minnetonka, mn
>> website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
>> clayart link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
>> new book: http://www.21stcenturykilns.com
>>
Michael Wendt on fri 1 jan 10
If I had to rely only on local people to buy my clay, I
would be SOL since there are only a few potters within 150
mile of Lewiston, Idaho in any direction.
USPS flat rate shipping allows me to send clay anywhere in
the 48 states plus Alaska and Hawaii for the same low price.
I have shipped clay to people in Alaska, Hawaii and most of
the other 48 states with really great results. When Wayne
was still in Key West FL he ordered clay on a Thursday and
got it the following Monday.
I say, buy what suits you best, especially in the realm of
clay since the clay you use can make or break you.
Regards,
Michael Wendt
gary navarre on sat 2 jan 10
Ya James, this gives me some ideas...=3D0A=3D0A--- On Fri, 1/1/10, James Fr=
eema=3D
n wrote:=3D0A=3D0A> From: James Freeman esfr=3D
eemanstudio@GMAIL.COM>=3D0A> Subject: Re: [Clayart] buying porcelain clay=
=3D0A>=3D
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG=3D0A> Date: Friday, January 1, 2010, 1:34 PM=
=3D0A=3D
> Gary...=3D0A> =3D0A> Yep, just call Rovin.=3DA0 Stephani is probably the =
one to=3D
=3D0A> talk to.=3DA0 I don't=3D0A> know if being in da' U.P. matters, eh?=
=3DA0 I'm =3D
not an=3D0A> expert on trucking=3D0A> tariffs, but the way I understand it,=
tr.=3D
..=3D0A=3D0AHe had them ship it instead to some=3D0A> place of business he =
knew=3D
=3D0A> of just inside the Ohio border for just $77, then drove it=3D0A> the=
las=3D
t couple=3D0A> of miles himself in a couple of trips in his van.=3D0A=3D0A =
Come t=3D
o realize my pal Rick has an auto body repair business shop a couple hundre=
=3D
d yards down the road, been there for 30 years and the only resident is the=
=3D
ghost of the old guy that usta own the quarter section 50 years ago. We us=
=3D
ed Rick's pickup truck to get the shelves from the shippers dock and saved =
=3D
$45 in added charges to lift-gate it off in my drive. We have all kinds of =
=3D
ways to take things off truck beds without a fork lift too, the dozer has a=
=3D
bucket and we got lotsa tools. I saw a couple old bath tubs behind the sho=
=3D
p I was thinking of using to mix clay but haven't had enough yet. Hell, I d=
=3D
on't even know if I'm gonna get any good pots with the clay I have so I've =
=3D
waited to get more.=3D0A=3D0A> =3D0A> If you want to stick with Rovin clay =
for yo=3D
ur wood fire, I=3D0A> have had very,=3D0A> very good results from both thei=
r RO=3D
-01 You Betcha=3D0A> porcelainous stoneware,=3D0A> and their RO-77 light st=
onew=3D
are (fire clay and tile=3D0A> 6).=3DA0 I have taken the=3D0A> RO-01 to abou=
t cone=3D
15 just for giggles, though it is only=3D0A> rated to cone=3D0A> 10.=3DA0 =
At 15,=3D
flat things like slab trays and platters=3D0A> warped over their wads,=3D0=
A> b=3D
ut thrown forms were perfect. (Also, don't use seashells=3D0A> as wads at c=
on=3D
e=3D0A> 15.=3DA0 They turn into come sort of caustic plasma that=3D0A> actu=
ally e=3D
ats worm=3D0A> holes and trails right through the clay!)=3DA0 Both clays=3D=
0A> to=3D
ok cone 12 with no=3D0A> problems.=3DA0 If you want to see examples of wood=
fir=3D
ed=3D0A> pots in both of those=3D0A> clays, go to my Flickr page=3D0A> (www=
.flick=3D
r.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio), then=3D0A> scroll half-way down page 3.=
=3DA0 =3D
The Bumpy Jar, Vase, and=3D0A> Small Vase are all=3D0A> RO-01 You Betcha.=
=3DA0 Th=3D
e Jar is RO-77 light stoneware,=3D0A> all to cone 12 using=3D0A> barn wood =
and =3D
oak flooring scraps.=3D0A=3D0A Might be my mix of RO-99 scraps and the A.R.=
T. s=3D
toneware I had left over could look something like the RO-01. I want to get=
=3D
a look at what the ash from fuel around here without it being overpowered =
=3D
by the iron in some school bodies I used. I think I'll get some more of Rov=
=3D
in's clays to sample before getting quantity and it could be worth my time =
=3D
to go down this spring for a visit with family and check on Mom's Dearborn =
=3D
house. Rovin is only a half hour from there. On second thought I really hat=
=3D
e that drive so I'd rather pay outrageous shipping even on samples than kil=
=3D
l my lower back with a week of driving. =3D0A=3D0A> =3D0A> I've been follow=
ing yo=3D
ur progress on clayart and sometimes=3D0A> on youtube.=3DA0=3D0A=3D0A Thank=
s, I kno=3D
w the YouTube is not always convenient, especially for those stuck on dial-=
=3D
up, but a few others get something out of the videos so I keep making them.=
=3D
I'll try to pick up the pace and make them more interesting with some firi=
=3D
ng and throwing. I'm trying to cover material about kiln building beginners=
=3D
seldom see.=3D0A=3D0A Best=3D0A> of luck with the project.=3DA0 Oh, and DO=
N'T grow=3D
=3D0A> up!=3DA0 You are only young once,=3D0A> but you can be immature fore=
ver!=3D
=3D0A=3D0AYa, but I've had one of those "I don't give a poop about my hair"=
yea=3D
rs and quit brushing it after I got fired from Wal*Mart so now it's a real =
=3D
dumb looking Dread nest, although neglect is one of the natural methods of =
=3D
making Dreadlocks this looks more like a muffin. Defiantly not a chick magn=
=3D
et. =3D0A=3D0A> =3D0A> Be well.=3D0A> =3D0A> ...James=3D0A> =3D0A> James F=
reeman=3D0A> =3D0A=3D
> "All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of=3D0A> advice.=3D=
A0 I=3D
should=3D0A> not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."=3D0A> =
-Mic=3D
hel de Montaigne=3D0A> =3D0A> http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com=3D0A> http:=
//www.=3D
flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/=3D0A> http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.c=
om=3D
/clayart/=3D0A> =3D0A> =3D0A> =3D0A> On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 1:08 PM, gary n=
avarre=3D
=3D0A> wrote:=3D0A> =3D0A> > Hay Folks,=3D0A=
=3D0A> >=3DA0=3D
Oh ya, one more thing. Any recomendations for a=3D0A> high tempreature bod=
y =3D
that=3D0A> > doesn't have that 1960's Hippy-brown pot look in=3D0A> wood-fi=
ring=3D
. One of my=3D0A> > sponsor said I need to start disassociating myself=3D0A=
> fr=3D
om the idealism of my=3D0A> > misspent youth, get a hair cut, and grow up.=
=3D0A=3D
=3D0AGary Navarre=3D0ANavarre Pottery=3D0ANavarre Enterprises=3D0ANorway, M=
ichigan,=3D
USA=3D0Ahttp://www.youtube.com/GindaUP=3D0Ahttp://public.fotki.com/GindaUP=
/=3D0A=3D
=3D0A=3D0A
Steve Slatin on sat 2 jan 10
James -- from about 1935 to 1980 there were
varying degrees of Federal involvement in
setting freight rates for interstate=3D20
shipping. =3D20
Deregulation began under Carter, IIRC, with
some modest changes.
In 1980 the Federal involvement was completely
eliminated. (Motor carrier act of 1980.)
Steve Slatin --=3D20
--- On Fri, 1/1/10, James Freeman wrote:
>> Gary...
>=3D20
> Yep, just call Rovin.=3DA0 Stephani is probably the one to
> talk to.=3DA0 I don't
> know if being in da' U.P. matters, eh?=3DA0 I'm not an
> expert on trucking
> tariffs, but the way I understand it, trucking rates are
> regulated by our
> benevolent overlords in Washington, and different states
> have different
> rates to different places regardless of which truck line is
> used.=3DA0 =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A
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