Veena Raghavan on mon 4 jan 10
It is amazing that some people on Clayart don't value all that Ron Roy has
contributed to this list. He is amazing and such a nice person to boot. Wha=
t
a shame that some feel they need to bash others on Clayart. I hope the new
year we are in will bring a gentler culture to Clayart. If you disagree wit=
h
someone, say so, but do not be insulting. What on earth does anyone get out
of that.
Happy New Year to everyone.
Veena
In a message dated 1/4/2010 9:15:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
melpots2@VISI.COM writes:
>
>
> anyone that wishes to piss me off
> for the rest of your life...just start
> bashing, belittle, or make smart remarks about ron.
>
> i will take you off clayart forever.
> debate is fine...but belittle...not.
> mel
VeenaRaghavan@cs.com
mel jacobson on mon 4 jan 10
anyone that wishes to piss me off
for the rest of your life...just start
bashing, belittle, or make smart remarks about ron.
i will take you off clayart forever.
debate is fine...but belittle...not.
mel
from: minnetonka, mn
website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
clayart link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
new book: http://www.21stcenturykilns.com
David Woof on tue 5 jan 10
It should be noted that also to his credit=3D2C Ron has stayed clear of thi=
s =3D
in true Elder Statesman fashion. I too have the highest regard for Ron and=
=3D
what he contributes.
=3D20
I also have always had respect for the well of experience from which Paul c=
=3D
ontributes.
=3D20
Perhaps New Year's AM is a good time to "reread later" before sending. Som=
=3D
etimes in haste we say less than what we really meant to say and it comes o=
=3D
ff in a regrettable form. =3D20
=3D20
The only person I've ever been tempted to engage here on Clayart makes such=
=3D
a regular fool of himself that bashing him would only make me the bigger f=
=3D
ool.
=3D20
I like to think of our forum as 1/3 Ram's Head Pub where friends can ignore=
=3D
late night less than intelligent rants=3D2C off topic passive aggressive o=
ne=3D
liners=3D2C talk about health and handmade bread till it molds=3D2C... and=
3/4=3D
international university lecture/discussion hall where we better know and =
=3D
can defend what we are talking about or expect a challenge.
=3D20
Either way we can hold someone's feet to the fire=3D2C or help them get the=
ir=3D
foot back out of their mouth in a decent and objective manner. =3D20
=3D20
We must remember that everything we say out here in cyber is forever and wi=
=3D
ll echo long after we may have changed our position or regret we ever said =
=3D
it.
=3D20
Love you all=3D2C and even that fool(ish) one in a tolerant principled sort=
o=3D
f way!!!=3D20
=3D20
David Woof =3D20
=3D20
Remember way back when "having a Bash" usually ment waking up sometime the =
=3D
next afternoon=3D2C somewhere you didn't recognize=3D2C and in someone else=
s cl=3D
othes? ah the 60's... and since I think I can remember this=3D2C it proves=
I=3D
wasn't there and so didn't do what I think I might have.... OH for god's =
=3D
sake=3D2C smile folks=3D2C it's a new year. Let's make it a laughing one. =
=3D20
=3D20
Happy and relieved that Mel is back and showing those Viking teeth when he =
=3D
considers it necessary.
________________________________________________________________=3D20
_________________________________________________________________=3D20
=3D20
2a. Re: bashing ron roy
Posted by: "Veena Raghavan" VeenaRaghavan@CS.COM=3D20
Date: Tue Jan 5=3D2C 2010 5:44 am ((PST))
It is amazing that some people on Clayart don't value all that Ron Roy has
contributed to this list. He is amazing and such a nice person to boot. Wha=
=3D
t
a shame that some feel they need to bash others on Clayart. I hope the new
year we are in will bring a gentler culture to Clayart. If you disagree wit=
=3D
h
someone=3D2C say so=3D2C but do not be insulting. What on earth does anyone=
get=3D
out
of that.
Happy New Year to everyone.
=3D20
Veena
=3D20
In a message dated 1/4/2010 9:15:11 PM Eastern Standard Time=3D2C
melpots2@VISI.COM writes:
>
>
> anyone that wishes to piss me off
> for the rest of your life...just start
> bashing=3D2C belittle=3D2C or make smart remarks about ron.
>
> i will take you off clayart forever.
> debate is fine...but belittle...not.
> mel
VeenaRaghavan@cs.com
=3D20
=3D20
=3D20
=3D20
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/=3D
Fred Parker on wed 6 jan 10
I have not read the post that led Mel to write this, but if I had the pow=
=3D
er
to do so I would probably go even further than Mel -- much further.=3D20
Clearly, the person who authored the offensive post does not know Ron or
anything about him!
Once again I will say the majority of what I know about clay has come fro=
=3D
m
or through ClayArt. Ron has been a big part of my education. So have ot=
=3D
her
ClayArt potters, but Ron stands out as an icon. As far as I am concerned=
=3D
the dictionary should have his photo by the definition of "generosity."
I am trying to take the high road here, but restraint is difficult. As f=
=3D
ar
as I am concerned anyone who chooses to use ClayArt to bash a North Ameri=
=3D
can
National Treasure like Ron Roy does not deserve to be a ClayArt subscribe=
=3D
r.
Collectively, we are better than this...=3D20
Fred Parker=3D20
On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 20:14:49 -0600, mel jacobson wrote=
=3D
:
>anyone that wishes to piss me off
>for the rest of your life...just start
>bashing, belittle, or make smart remarks about ron.
>
Arnold Howard on wed 6 jan 10
I discovered Clayart in 1999 and was immediately impressed
with Ron Roy. I've learned a lot from him. A few years later
I met him and John Hesselberth at an NCECA book signing. I
still have their autographed book.
You can listen to interviews with Ron and John at this link:
http://www.paragonweb.com/videos.cfm
Sincerely,
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA
ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com
Ingeborg Foco on wed 6 jan 10
Fred,
Ron Roy is a great guy, he has helped me and many other people on this list
and I suspect he doesn't need anyone to defend him; but....and I say
but.........do we really want censorship on what someone says about someone
else if it doesn't agree with our ideals thoughts or moral convictions?
Regardless of what you think of Paul's comment, shouldn't he be permitted t=
o
say what he wishes? You know free speech and all. So give Paul a break.
Maybe he was having a really bad day, maybe his wife left him, maybe his
premixed clay turned out like crap, maybe he really meant what he said I
don't know, regardless, shouldn't he be able to do that without you
suggesting Mel coming down harder. Come now. Mel should NOT be acting as
the Gestapo. That would be intolerable at least from my point of view.
Peace to all and a good night.
Ingeborg
Wed, n 6, 2010 at 10:58 AM, Fred Parker wrote:
> I have not read the post that led Mel to write this, but if I had the pow=
er
> to do so I would probably go even further than Mel -- much further.
> Clearly, the person who authored the offensive post does not know Ron or
> anything about him!
>
>
>
>
>
Edouard Bastarache on wed 6 jan 10
Hello all,
keep Ron in good shape, I need someone to argue with!!!
Gis,
Edouard Bastarache
Spertesperantisto
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
http://edouardbastarache.blogspot.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30058682@N00/
http://cerampeintures.blogspot.com/
http://albertpaintings.blogspot.com/
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/index.htm
Maurice Weitman on wed 6 jan 10
At 21:42 -0500 on 1/6/10, Edouard Bastarache wrote:
>keep Ron in good shape, I need someone to argue with!!!
Yeah, let's bash Edouard again! That was fun!!!
Paix,
Maurice
ps Edouard, is Kanada anything like Amerika?
Edouard Bastarache on wed 6 jan 10
Maurice, were your ancestors in Saint-Hyacinthe
as sadistic as you are.
Heeeeeeeeeee!!!
Gis,
Edouard Bastarache
Spertesperantisto
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
http://edouardbastarache.blogspot.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30058682@N00/
http://cerampeintures.blogspot.com/
http://albertpaintings.blogspot.com/
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/index.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Maurice Weitman"
To:
Cc: "Edouard Bastarache"
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 10:22 PM
Subject: Re: bashing ron roy
> At 21:42 -0500 on 1/6/10, Edouard Bastarache wrote:
>>keep Ron in good shape, I need someone to argue with!!!
>
> Yeah, let's bash Edouard again! That was fun!!!
>
> Paix,
>
> Maurice
>
> ps Edouard, is Kanada anything like Amerika?
>
Paul Lewing on wed 6 jan 10
On Jan 6, 2010, at 5:46 PM, Ingeborg Foco wrote:
Ron Roy is a great guy, he has helped me and many other people on this
list
and I suspect he doesn't need anyone to defend him; but....and I say
but...
And I agree, but can we kid him a little? It's such fun!
So give Paul a break.
Maybe he was having a really bad day, maybe his wife left him, maybe his
premixed clay turned out like crap, maybe he really meant what he said I
don't know,
And I'm not THAT Paul.
>
Paul Lewing
www.paullewingtile.com
www.paullewingart.com
KATHI LESUEUR on thu 7 jan 10
On Jan 6, 2010, at 8:46 PM, Ingeborg Foco wrote:
> Fred,
>
> Ron Roy is a great guy, he has helped me and many other people on
> this list
> and I suspect he doesn't need anyone to defend him; but....and I say
> but.........do we really want censorship on what someone says about
> someone
> else if it doesn't agree with our ideals thoughts or moral
> convictions?
> Regardless of what you think of Paul's comment, shouldn't he be
> permitted to
> say what he wishes? You know free speech and all......
No. Free speech has limits. We've talked before about personal
attacks, and this was a personal attack. People have responded so
strongly because, like me, they've never seen anything on this list
to support Paul's statements. I'm all for discussion, heated
discussion, disagreements on point of view. But, I expect those
discussions to have an element of civility to them. If Paul had said,
"I've personally disagreed with some of Ron's comments on glazes or
clay, so as with anyone giving advice, do your own testing of his
solutions", I'd have no problem. But, to say that Ron is self-serving
in his advice goes beyond opinion and I believe has no place in this
forum.
KATHI LESUEUR
http://www.lesueurclaywork.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Elizabeth Cohen on thu 7 jan 10
Perhaps this will help clarify:
Governments and their agencies do the censoring.
Private organizations and groups set standards. It seems that Mel is
trying to maintain standards, not censor.
Best,
Elizabeth Cohen
elizabethcohenpottery.com
Wellesley, MA
On Jan 6, 2010, at 9:42 PM, Edouard Bastarache wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> keep Ron in good shape, I need someone to argue with!!!
>
> Gis,
>
> Edouard Bastarache
> Spertesperantisto
>
> Sorel-Tracy
> Quebec
>
> http://edouardbastarache.blogspot.com/
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/30058682@N00/
> http://cerampeintures.blogspot.com/
> http://albertpaintings.blogspot.com/
> http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/index.htm
Edouard Bastarache on thu 7 jan 10
> Maurice
>
> ps Edouard, is Kanada anything like Amerika?
Not in Kebek
Gis,
Edouard Bastarache
Spertesperantisto
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
http://edouardbastarache.blogspot.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30058682@N00/
http://cerampeintures.blogspot.com/
http://albertpaintings.blogspot.com/
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/index.htm
>
Vince Pitelka on thu 7 jan 10
Fred Parker -
"I thank my lucky stars ClayArt has Herr Ubersturmmeistersprechtpolizei Mel
and other moderators brave enough to put a quick end to these occasional
infestations of personal assault ClayArt suffers! The list is what it is
because of them."
Fred -
I don't think that's true. I am very thankful for Mel, Joyce, Wayne, and
the others who moderate, but the list is what it is because most people in
studio ceramics are decent people, and because all the long-term committed
members help maintain a certain tone, and will step in very vocally when
someone steps out of line, as was the case this time. We certainly do not
want to silence all dissent or even all rudeness or insults, because on thi=
s
list we have conversations and occasionally arguments, and if you try to
silence the latter you really are engaged in censorship. It is the benefit
and risk of a free society that sometimes people will step out of line.
Clayart is exciting and worthwhile for a lot of reasons, but if it was just
always pleasant and warm and fuzzy, a lot of us would get bored real quick.
It is important to point out that what Paul said was inaccurate and rude,
but not in any way deserving of some of the vitriol that has been cast in
response. Paul doesn't have a mean-spirited bone in his body, and that is =
a
very important distinction. Anyone fortunate enough to be friends with Pau=
l
Herman knows him to be a wonderful guy. Same is true of Ron Roy, but there
are a lot more people on this list who have had the pleasure of getting to
know Ron. I count myself among the lucky few who know both of them, and
Paul is a good friend of mine.
The slippery-slope to censorship is very dangerous ground, and fortunately
Clayart has managed to avoid it, simply because we are very tolerant of
subject and point of view. Our moderators are wise to quell any discussion
that veers towards politics or religion, but otherwise, an occasional barb
or insult is inevitable, and as has been so clearly demonstrated by this
whole affair, it is easy for people on opposite sides of the country (or
next-door) to completely misinterpret one-another if the only communication
is via email. If the moderators started filtering out comments like the one
Paul made, this list would deteriorate quickly.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Fred Parker on thu 7 jan 10
Ingeborg:
Thanks for your opinion, but I could not possibly disagree more. Maybe i=
=3D
t
is because I have gleaned so much from ClayArt that I am so passionate ab=
=3D
out
this, but in the world you describe I suppose there is no need for rules
governing slander, libel and/or human decency?
I can assure you if irresponsible "free speech" were the only criterion, =
=3D
my
posts would be MUCH more "free" and colorful. I'm guessing LOTS of peopl=
=3D
e
would have strong opinions about them.
Personally, I have had the displeasure of membership on a discussion list=
=3D
where the approach you advocate prevailed. It was a poorly moderated
"gardening" newsgroup where pretty much anything could be posted -- on to=
=3D
pic
or not (remember, "free" speech...) I expected participants to be like m=
=3D
ost
gardeners I knew -- open, generous, eager to assist beginners etc. It
turned out to be anything but! Eventually it sank to domination by a sma=
=3D
ll
clique of loud-mouthed cat lovers who wanted only to tell each other abou=
=3D
t
cutesie cat antics in their gardens. Anyone suggesting a return to
"on-topic" was flamed off the list -- including me.
I thank my lucky stars ClayArt has Herr Ubersturmmeistersprechtpolizei Me=
=3D
l
and other moderators brave enough to put a quick end to these occasional
infestations of personal assault ClayArt suffers! The list is what it is=
=3D
because of them.=3D20=3D20
Fred=3D20=3D20
On Wed, 6 Jan 2010 20:46:36 -0500, Ingeborg Foco =3D
>
wrote:
>Fred,
>
>Ron Roy is a great guy, he has helped me and many other people on this l=
=3D
ist
>and I suspect he doesn't need anyone to defend him; but....and I say
>but.........do we really want censorship on what someone says about some=
=3D
one
>else if it doesn't agree with our ideals thoughts or moral convictions?
>Regardless of what you think of Paul's comment, shouldn't he be permitte=
=3D
d to
>say what he wishes? You know free speech and all. So give Paul a brea=
=3D
k.
>Maybe he was having a really bad day, maybe his wife left him, maybe his=
=3D
>premixed clay turned out like crap, maybe he really meant what he said I=
=3D
>don't know, regardless, shouldn't he be able to do that without you
>suggesting Mel coming down harder. Come now. Mel should NOT be acting =
=3D
as
>the Gestapo. That would be intolerable at least from my point of view.
Jess McKenzie on thu 7 jan 10
Edouard, you have our vote.
Cudos to you!
~joan and jess
Date sent: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 09:31:18 -0500
Send reply to: Edouard Bastarache TRACY.QC.CA>
From: Edouard Bastarache TRACY.QC.CA>
Subject: Re: bashing ron roy
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
[ Double-click this line for list subscription
options ]
> Maurice
>
> ps Edouard, is Kanada anything like Amerika?
Not in Kebek
Gis,
Edouard Bastarache
Spertesperantisto
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
http://edouardbastarache.blogspot.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30058682@N00/
http://cerampeintures.blogspot.com/
http://albertpaintings.blogspot.com/
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/index.htm
>
Jess McKenzie on thu 7 jan 10
Perhaps the word is "censure." Surely, Mel has the
authority to do that.
BTW, we don't like GESTAPO (Geheime Staatspolizei)
either--any more than we liked "soup NAZI."
And we pledge not to watch Mel Brooks' "The
Producers" one more time.
~joan and jess
.....................
Elizabeth Cohen wrote
Perhaps this will help clarify:
Governments and their agencies do the censoring.
Private organizations and groups set standards. It
seems that Mel is
trying to maintain standards, not censor.
On Jan 6, 2010, at 9:42 PM, Edouard Bastarache wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> keep Ron in good shape, I need someone to argue with!!!
>
> Gis,
>
> Edouard Bastarache
> Spertesperantisto
>
> Sorel-Tracy
> Quebec
>
> http://edouardbastarache.blogspot.com/
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/30058682@N00/
> http://cerampeintures.blogspot.com/
> http://albertpaintings.blogspot.com/
> http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/index.htm
Ingeborg Foco on thu 7 jan 10
Dear Fred,
You misunderstand me or I don't write well enough. I do believe in rules I
just don't believe in kicking a guy when he is down, done either directly o=
r
indirectly. The constant defense of Ron and how loved he is in my opinion
was kicking the other guy when he is down. Haven't we all said things that
we would like to bring back but the words are out there never to be
forgotten or retrieved. Isn't it a bit more generous to let it pass?
Please remember I and everyone knows Ron to be a great guy helpful and
generous with his time. We all love him. There's no argument.
So anyhow, I said I wouldn't say anything more on the subject and I guess I
lied. Now I am reprimanded by Lily for my choice of words. I guess that
is reason enough to just stay on the clay subject. Mea culpa.
I agree we should gang up on Edouard, mon amis.
Best wishes,
Ingeborg
On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 11:42 AM, Fred Parker wrote:
> Ingeborg:
>
> Thanks for your opinion, but I could not possibly disagree more. Maybe i=
t
> is because I have gleaned so much from ClayArt that I am so passionate
> about
> this, but in the world you describe I suppose there is no need for rules
> governing slander, libel and/or human decency?
> I can assure you if irresponsible "free speech" were the only criterion, =
my
> posts would be MUCH more "free" and colorful. I'm guessing LOTS of peopl=
e
> would have strong opinions about them.
>
> Personally, I have had the displeasure of membership on a discussion list
> where the approach you advocate prevailed. It was a poorly moderated
> "gardening" newsgroup where pretty much anything could be posted -- on
> topic
> or not (remember, "free" speech...) I expected participants to be like
> most
> gardeners I knew -- open, generous, eager to assist beginners etc. It
> turned out to be anything but! Eventually it sank to domination by a sma=
ll
> clique of loud-mouthed cat lovers who wanted only to tell each other abou=
t
> cutesie cat antics in their gardens. Anyone suggesting a return to
> "on-topic" was flamed off the list -- including me.
>
> I thank my lucky stars ClayArt has Herr Ubersturmmeistersprechtpolizei Me=
l
> and other moderators brave enough to put a quick end to these occasional
> infestations of personal assault ClayArt suffers! The list is what it is
> because of them.
>
> Fred
>
>
> On Wed, 6 Jan 2010 20:46:36 -0500, Ingeborg Foco >
> wrote:
>
> >Fred,
> >
> >Ron Roy is a great guy, he has helped me and many other people on this
> list
> >and I suspect he doesn't need anyone to defend him; but....and I say
> >but.........do we really want censorship on what someone says about
> someone
> >else if it doesn't agree with our ideals thoughts or moral convictions?
> >Regardless of what you think of Paul's comment, shouldn't he be permitte=
d
> to
> >say what he wishes? You know free speech and all. So give Paul a brea=
k.
> >Maybe he was having a really bad day, maybe his wife left him, maybe his
> >premixed clay turned out like crap, maybe he really meant what he said I
> >don't know, regardless, shouldn't he be able to do that without you
> >suggesting Mel coming down harder. Come now. Mel should NOT be acting =
as
> >the Gestapo. That would be intolerable at least from my point of view.
>
>
>
--
Sincerely,
Ingeborg
http://www.thepottersworkshop.com
Maurice Weitman on fri 8 jan 10
At 19:57 -0600 on 1/7/10, Vince Pitelka wrote:
>It is important to point out that what Paul said was inaccurate and rude,
>but not in any way deserving of some of the vitriol that has been cast in
>response.
Vince, would you show me the vitriol you found?
The only messages I found that weren't general "Ron's a good guy"
posts were things like:
"With respect I think YOU [Paul] need to explain in full the sweeping
derogatory
statement made at the end of your post!"
and
"Paul, I'm trying to understand why you wrote and believe Ron would
"try to smear
other clay makers"?"
and
"Clayart re[s]pects facts more than opinion!"
I don't recall anything like vitriol or personal attacks against Paul.
Please enlighten me.
Thanks.
Regards,
Maurice
tony clennell on fri 8 jan 10
Maurice: Don't you have pots to make? I don't know your pots but if
you spend as much time thinking about them as trying to suck the blood
outta Paul they must be incredible. I think most of us on this list
have moved on and are tired of this tread. Why don't you go to the
studio?There is life outside of nailing someone to the wall on
someone on Clayart!
Tc
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 2:53 PM, Maurice Weitman wrote:
> At 19:57 -0600 on 1/7/10, Vince Pitelka wrote:
>>
>> It is important to point out that what Paul said was inaccurate and rude=
,
>> but not in any way deserving of some of the vitriol that has been cast i=
n
>> response.
>
> Vince, would you show me the vitriol you found?
>
> The only messages I found that weren't general "Ron's a good guy"
> posts were things like:
>
> "With respect I think YOU [Paul] need to explain in full the sweeping
> derogatory
> statement made at the end of your post!"
>
> and
>
> "Paul, I'm trying to understand why you wrote and believe Ron would
> "try to smear
> other clay makers"?"
>
> and
>
> "Clayart re[s]pects facts more than opinion!"
>
> I don't recall anything like vitriol or personal attacks against Paul.
>
> Please enlighten me.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Regards,
> Maurice
>
--
http://sourcherrypottery.com
http://smokieclennell.blogspot.com
Workshop Feb 5,6,7 Mudbucket Pottery
Myrtle Beach, SC
info@mudbucketpottery.com
Workshop Feb 13th
Tucker's Pottery Supply-Lies, lies and more lies
info@tuckerspottery.com
La Meridiana, Italy April 25/May 8th- workshop is full
Calgary May 14,15, 16 Mount Pleasant Arts Centre NMPAC@calgary.ca
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