Malone & Dean McRaine on thu 18 dec 97
Aloha;
I have been considering shelling out $1760 + East coast shipping for
Advancer shelves (ten 14"x28") but somehow can't seem to get myself to write
the check. I want a 28"x28" stack and I want shelves thin enough so I don't
stress out loading it. Flat is nice, too but is it worth it?
I know coventional wisdom is not to use 5/8" shelves in ^10 firings but I
have been doing that in my electric kiln for the last 4 years. It takes 22"
half decagons. I've probably done 75 firings. I get slight warpage and two
shelves now have 2" cracks in the middle but I still use them.
14"x14"x5/8" corderite shelves are $10 each or about $200 + West coast
shipping (vs $1760+) for my kiln. I call that persuasive economics. At $10
apiece I'd consider the occaisional crack an affordable liability. I'd have
a post in the middle of the stack limiting diameter, but I don't do much
work that big. Has anyone fired 5/8 shelves in ^10 reduction? How do they
hold up? Will gas reduction be harder on shelves than electric oxidation?
Don't bother telling me they'll warp, my 1" shelves all warped, so what, I
turned them over. Is unwarpability the biggest advantage the Advancer
shelves have?
Mele Kalikimaka (Merry Christmas) from the Garden Island where if you don't
mow your lawn year 'round, it will grow taller than your head.
Dean
Jonathan Kaplan on fri 19 dec 97
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Aloha;
>I have been considering shelling out $1760 + East coast shipping for
>Advancer shelves (ten 14"x28") but somehow can't seem to get myself to write
>the check. I want a 28"x28" stack and I want shelves thin enough so I don't
>stress out loading it. Flat is nice, too but is it worth it?
>
Funny how these same threads keeps surfacing
Contact Acme Marls in Stoke on Trent England, Ferro Refractories(Cesco or
Louthan Plant)in Cookeville Ohio, or Hewitt Technical Ceramics in Bethlehem
Pa. for information on the cordierite shelves they produce. High
temperature cordierites, suitable to cone 10.
I have used them all, even on your size. My stack uses 14 x 28 x 1 shelves.
I have used these for 0ver 15 years, in fact my original Sphinx shelves
(now Hewitt) are well over that. Flat, smooth, lighter weight than SiC,
cheaper, and as durable.
We recently imported a few rather large crates of shelves, dinnerware
setters and related refractories form Acme Marls Direct. The East Coast
distributer is Highwater Clays. I think Geil Kilns is the west coast
distributer.
Save yourself some money. If I can be of futher help with these
undisputable testimonials, call me.
Good luck
Jonathan
Jonathan Kaplan, president jonathan@csn.net
http://www.sni.net/ceramicdesign/
Ceramic Design Group Ltd./Production Services
PO Box 775112
Steamboat Springs CO 80477
(USPS deliveries only)
Plant Location
30800 Moffat Ave Unit 13
Steamboat Springs CO 80487
( UPS, courier, and common carrier deliveries)
(970) 879-9139*voice and fax
http://www.sni.net/ceramicdesign/
http://digitalfire.com/education/clay/kaplan1.htm
Talbott on fri 19 dec 97
Dean...
We fire cone 10 reduction in a gas kiln and we use Nitride Bonded
SiC shelves from New Castle Refractories. They are 24"x12"x1/2" and we
have had great success with these.. They cost us about $49 each... We use
Lee's Kiln Wash on one side only of the shelf.. They are a good choice for
any potter who is high firing in a gas kiln... Advancers can break and
crack and at $176 a shot that is rather depressing... Marshall
New Castle Refractories Co.
915 Industrial Street
New Castle, PA 16102
(412) 654-7711 fax...-6322
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Aloha;
>I have been considering shelling out $1760 + East coast shipping for
>Advancer shelves (ten 14"x28") but somehow can't seem to get myself to write
>the check. I want a 28"x28" stack and I want shelves thin enough so I don't
>stress out loading it. Flat is nice, too but is it worth it?
>
>I know coventional wisdom is not to use 5/8" shelves in ^10 firings but I
>have been doing that in my electric kiln for the last 4 years. It takes 22"
>half decagons. I've probably done 75 firings. I get slight warpage and two
>shelves now have 2" cracks in the middle but I still use them.
>
>14"x14"x5/8" corderite shelves are $10 each or about $200 + West coast
>shipping (vs $1760+) for my kiln. I call that persuasive economics. At $10
>apiece I'd consider the occaisional crack an affordable liability. I'd have
>a post in the middle of the stack limiting diameter, but I don't do much
>work that big. Has anyone fired 5/8 shelves in ^10 reduction? How do they
>hold up? Will gas reduction be harder on shelves than electric oxidation?
>Don't bother telling me they'll warp, my 1" shelves all warped, so what, I
>turned them over. Is unwarpability the biggest advantage the Advancer
>shelves have?
>
>Mele Kalikimaka (Merry Christmas) from the Garden Island where if you don't
>mow your lawn year 'round, it will grow taller than your head.
>Dean
101 CLAYART MUGS
2ND ANNUAL CLAYARTERS' GALLERY - NAPLES, MAINE (Summer 1998)
E-MAIL ME FOR AN APPLICATION
http://fmc.utm.edu/~dmcbeth/cag/naples.htm
Celia & Marshall Talbott, Pottery By Celia, Route 114, P O Box 4116,
Naples, Maine 04055-4116,(207)693-6100 voice and fax,(call first)
Clayarters' Live Chat Room, Fri & Sat Nites at 10 PM EDT & Sun at 1 PM EDT
http://webchat12.wbs.net/webchat3.so?Room=PRIVATE_Clayarters
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Kathi LeSueur on fri 19 dec 97
<hold up? Will gas reduction be harder on shelves than electric oxidation?
Don't bother telling me they'll warp, my 1" shelves all warped, so what, I
turned them over. Is unwarpability the biggest advantage the Advancer
shelves have?>>
I've used Thorley corderidte shelves for years. Most of my shelves are 5/8,
14 x24. I'm not sure they still make 5/8 in that size. But I've never used
over 3/4. I fire cone 10 reduction sometimes with 11 tipping. I have very
little warping even with large pieces on them. Use 3 posts. Two at the
corners of the long side, one at the middle edge of the other long side. I
don't wash the shelves. I flip them if I notice warping starting. It takes
about 11 to 12 hours for me to reach cone 10.
Frankly, I wouldn't invest in any other shelf. I consider them a wonderful
product.
Kathi LeSueur
Jennifer Boyer on sun 21 dec 97
Hi Jonathan,
How much do your acme marls shelves weigh? 1 inch is pretty thick, and I
think the thread was stressing light weight shelves. I have been using high
Alumina shelves from Bailey's and they are pretty warped. I'm also
interested in warp resisitance in shelves. Any suggestions? It would be
nice if they were light. I have some old silicon carbide shelves of the
potato chip variety, and my warped shelf collection is getting a little
bulky. Too bad I make so many shallow, wide forms. I lost my collection of
clayart messages about advancer and crystar(?) shelves so if anyone has
used these for a long time, like at least 3 years of steady use, please let
me know if they are still flat. Same goes for nitride bonded. Anyone have
any they've fired to cone 10 say 50 times? I fire about about 17 times a
year to cone 10 with no reduction in a gas kiln.
Take Care,
Jennifer
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>>Aloha;
>>I have been considering shelling out $1760 + East coast shipping for
>>Advancer shelves (ten 14"x28") but somehow can't seem to get myself to write
>>the check. I want a 28"x28" stack and I want shelves thin enough so I don't
>>stress out loading it. Flat is nice, too but is it worth it?
>>
>
>Funny how these same threads keeps surfacing
>
>Contact Acme Marls in Stoke on Trent England, Ferro Refractories(Cesco or
>Louthan Plant)in Cookeville Ohio, or Hewitt Technical Ceramics in Bethlehem
>Pa. for information on the cordierite shelves they produce. High
>temperature cordierites, suitable to cone 10.
>
>I have used them all, even on your size. My stack uses 14 x 28 x 1 shelves.
>I have used these for 0ver 15 years, in fact my original Sphinx shelves
>(now Hewitt) are well over that. Flat, smooth, lighter weight than SiC,
>cheaper, and as durable.
>
>We recently imported a few rather large crates of shelves, dinnerware
>setters and related refractories form Acme Marls Direct. The East Coast
>distributer is Highwater Clays. I think Geil Kilns is the west coast
>distributer.
>
>Save yourself some money. If I can be of futher help with these
>undisputable testimonials, call me.
>
>Good luck
>
>
>Jonathan
>
>
>
>Jonathan Kaplan, president jonathan@csn.net
> http://www.sni.net/ceramicdesign/
>Ceramic Design Group Ltd./Production Services
>PO Box 775112
>Steamboat Springs CO 80477
>(USPS deliveries only)
>
>Plant Location
>30800 Moffat Ave Unit 13
>Steamboat Springs CO 80487
>( UPS, courier, and common carrier deliveries)
>
>(970) 879-9139*voice and fax
>
>http://www.sni.net/ceramicdesign/
>http://digitalfire.com/education/clay/kaplan1.htm
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Jennifer Boyer
Thistle Hill Pottery
Montpelier, Vt. 05602
jboyer@plainfield.bypass.com
Craig Martell on sun 21 dec 97
At 04:18 PM 12/19/97 EST, Marshall Talbott wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Dean...
> We fire cone 10 reduction in a gas kiln and we use Nitride Bonded
>SiC shelves from New Castle Refractories. They are 24"x12"x1/2" and we
>have had great success with these.. They cost us about $49 each... We use
>Lee's Kiln Wash on one side only of the shelf.. They are a good choice for
>any potter who is high firing in a gas kiln... Advancers can break and
>crack and at $176 a shot that is rather depressing...
Marshall:
Any shelf can be broken by a potter and SiCs WILL and DO crack. I can't
blame you a bit for employing good economic sense at $49 a shelf. However,
12x24 Advancers are $129, it's the 14x28s that cost around $176. I have 24
crystars and 8 advancers. They are fired to cone 10 a lot and haven't
warped a bit and not one has any hint of a crack. Some of my older crystars
(6.5yrs) have been fired hundreds of times without even being flipped or
rewashed. I knocked over a setting one night when I was dog tired and
tyring to get a load firing. 8 crystars hit the concrete floor full force
and I only lost one. It broke right in half. Advancers have more binder in
them and are stronger than crystars so draw your own conclusions here.
For me, the ultra thin shelves are worth the money. Same old arguments,
such as, more BTUs into the ware and less into furniture and old guys like
me (I'm 50) who have already had back surgery appreciate the lighter heft.
Your post IMPLIES that advancers are prone to failure from cracks and
breakage. On what are you basing this opinion? I think that these shelves
are an incredible advancement in kiln furniture technology and in my
experience, the advancers are one of the strongest products on the market.
If others are happy with the less expensive shelves and like using them, I
think it's great, and you don't have to own crystars and advancers to
produce stellar work.
regards, Craig Martell-Oregon
Jonathan Kaplan on mon 22 dec 97
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Hi Jonathan,
>How much do your acme marls shelves weigh? 1 inch is pretty thick, and I
>think the thread was stressing light weight shelves. I have been using high
>Alumina shelves from Bailey's and they are pretty warped. I'm also
>interested in warp resisitance in shelves. Any suggestions? It would be
>nice if they were light. I have some old silicon carbide shelves of the
>potato chip variety, and my warped shelf collection is getting a little
>bulky. Too bad I make so many shallow, wide forms. I lost my collection of
>clayart messages about advancer and crystar(?) shelves so if anyone has
>used these for a long time, like at least 3 years of steady use, please let
>me know if they are still flat. Same goes for nitride bonded. Anyone have
>any they've fired to cone 10 say 50 times? I fire about about 17 times a
>year to cone 10 with no reduction in a gas kiln.
>
>Take Care,
>Jennifer
>
I'll weigh one and let you know tomorrow or so. They are much lighter than
SiC shelves and in my boo, dollar for dollar a better deal. Light shelves
are I think in the mind of the lifter. I remmeber when I have 14 x 28 x 1
SiC shelves from Carborundum years ago, I thought they were just fine until
I purchased high temperature cordierites from Sphinx.
I think potter's are incumbered by lots of misinformation. FOr years,
cordierite shelves ala Thorley's were the stock and trade for electric
kilns and SiC for gas. No one thought of using cordierite shelves as they
were only rated for cone 6 (the one from Thorley's)
Industry uses cordierites as they are much better for fast firing. The
nitride bonded advancers, etc. are fine also for fast firing but the cost
is prohibited for most potters.
My original shelves from Sphinx (now Hewitt) are still flat and perfect
after about 15 years. Their replacements, when and If I ever need them are
from Acme Marls. These are high temp cordierites and will give me years of
life, don't take as much heat to heat up as SiC shelves do, and are far
more cost effective. In fact, if I remember correctly, including freight,
customs, etc. etc. purchased direct from Acme Marls, these were about
$25.00 last year. I an sure that Highwater does add a mark up on their
costs.
Setter disks might be a solution for your wide forms. These are round bats,
about half inch think, used ontop of your shelves and inder the wide forms,
kind of individual shelves on top of shleves, a standard industry
proactices for many years. I have some 16" diameter disks and use them alot
for exaclty the same process.
Good Luck
Jonathan
Jonathan Kaplan http://www.sni.net/ceramicdesign/
http://www.ceramicsoftware.com/education/clay/kaplan1.htm
jonathan@csn.net
Ceramic Design Group Ltd./Production Services Voice:
970-879-9139 POB 775112
FAXmodem: same
Steamboat Springs, Colorado 80477, USA CALL before faxing
Plant Location: 30800 Moffat Avenue #13 Steamboat Springs Co 80487
(please use this address for all UPS, courier, and common carrier
shipments)
Talbott on mon 22 dec 97
Craig...
Yes ANY shelf can crack and break and some shelves are better than
others. I did not intend to imply that Crystars and Advancers are
problematic... on the contrary they are almost certainly the best shelves
available. I wish that I could afford them... if money were not an issue
then I to would have a set of 50 Advancers but those would cost me $6400.
I purchased 50 Nitride bonded SiC shelves for $2450.. However, I would
much rather have the 1/4" thick Advancers* (*assuming Advancers are 1/4"
thick...correct me if I am wrong.) than the 1/2" thick shelves that I have
now. I would save on fuel consumption and on muscle strain as well. I am
glad that you brought up the point on the Advancers being stronger than the
Crystars. Do you have any pricing information and technical data that you
can post to Clayart on the Crystars and the Advancers? Thanks
....Marshall
>Any shelf can be broken by a potter and SiCs WILL and DO crack. I can't
>blame you a bit for employing good economic sense at $49 a shelf. However,
>12x24 Advancers are $129, it's the 14x28s that cost around $176. I have 24
>crystars and 8 advancers. They are fired to cone 10 a lot and haven't
>warped a bit and not one has any hint of a crack. Some of my older crystars
>(6.5yrs) have been fired hundreds of times without even being flipped or
>rewashed. I knocked over a setting one night when I was dog tired and
>tyring to get a load firing. 8 crystars hit the concrete floor full force
>and I only lost one. It broke right in half. Advancers have more binder in
>them and are stronger than crystars so draw your own conclusions here.
>
>For me, the ultra thin shelves are worth the money. Same old arguments,
>such as, more BTUs into the ware and less into furniture and old guys like
>me (I'm 50) who have already had back surgery appreciate the lighter heft.
>
>Your post IMPLIES that advancers are prone to failure from cracks and
>breakage. On what are you basing this opinion? I think that these shelves
>are an incredible advancement in kiln furniture technology and in my
>experience, the advancers are one of the strongest products on the market.
>If others are happy with the less expensive shelves and like using them, I
>think it's great, and you don't have to own crystars and advancers to
>produce stellar work.
>
>regards, Craig Martell-Oregon
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>At 04:18 PM 12/19/97 EST, Marshall Talbott wrote:
>>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>>Dean...
>> We fire cone 10 reduction in a gas kiln and we use Nitride Bonded
>>SiC shelves from New Castle Refractories. They are 24"x12"x1/2" and we
>>have had great success with these.. They cost us about $49 each... We use
>>Lee's Kiln Wash on one side only of the shelf.. They are a good choice for
>>any potter who is high firing in a gas kiln... Advancers can break and
>>crack and at $176 a shot that is rather depressing...
>
>Marshall:
>
101 CLAYART MUGS
2ND ANNUAL CLAYARTERS' GALLERY - NAPLES, MAINE (Summer 1998)
E-MAIL ME FOR AN APPLICATION
http://fmc.utm.edu/~dmcbeth/cag/naples.htm
Celia & Marshall Talbott, Pottery By Celia, Route 114, P O Box 4116,
Naples, Maine 04055-4116,(207)693-6100 voice and fax,(call first)
Clayarters' Live Chat Room, Fri & Sat Nites at 10 PM EDT & Sun at 1 PM EDT
http://webchat12.wbs.net/webchat3.so?Room=PRIVATE_Clayarters
---------------------------------------------------------------------
WardBurner on tue 23 dec 97
Hey folks,
One point that I think has been missed about shelves cracking and such is the
atmosphere. Silicon Carbide and recrystalized Silicon Carbide (Advancers &
Crystar) don't preform as well in oxidation and will tend to crack more
easily. Sometimes Nitride bonded shelves will crack more easily if they are
repeatedly moved as opposed to being left in place.
I use some cast-off Crystars from a near by aerospace firm. These shelves are
1/4" thick and are 15" x 16" and weigh 4 lbs. A quarter of an inch is real
thin.
They use these shelves at 2600 F with about 50-75 lbs of product per shelf
They fire large mullite blocks that encase turbine blades and can't have any
deformation. If you can afford these shelves, they are the way to go....
Stephen Mills on tue 23 dec 97
I would have thought that warping goes hand in hand with thin shelves.
In my electric Kiln I use 5/8"X 16 1/2" (4 cu.ft.), no problems. My last
Gas Kiln used 16 1/2" X 22 1/2" X 1", any thinner and they warped (I
three prop by the way). Used to turn them over and turn them round for
each firing to even out the stress. That worked OK. All my shelves have
been from Acme Marls.
Steve
--
Steve Mills
Bath
UK
home tel: (44) (0)1225 311699 e-mail: stevemills@mudslinger.demon.co.uk
work tel: (44) (0)1225 337046 e-mail: stevemills@bathpotters.demon.co.uk
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