Talbott on mon 22 dec 97
What distinguishes an artist above a craftsman? In my opinion it
is the artist's ability to DESIGN that sets him or her above a craftsman.
You can't be an artist unless you are a craftsman but you can be a
craftsman without being an artist. I consider myself to be a craftsman but
not an artist. However, I consider Celia, my wife, to be an artist as she
can not only execute her craft with considerable skill but she can as well
design forms that are truely unique and appealing. I think that you can
learn to become a craftsman BUT I truely do not believe that you can learn
to be a designer. The ability to design seems to be more or less an
inherited talent. I think that you can improve your designing skills but I
believe that you first have to have a certain instinct for it. Some
potters are craftsmen and some potters are artists. You don't need to look
too long at a potter's work in order to determine which category they
belong to. ....Marshall
101 CLAYART MUGS
2ND ANNUAL CLAYARTERS' GALLERY - NAPLES, MAINE (Summer 1998)
E-MAIL ME FOR AN APPLICATION
http://fmc.utm.edu/~dmcbeth/cag/naples.htm
Celia & Marshall Talbott, Pottery By Celia, Route 114, P O Box 4116,
Naples, Maine 04055-4116,(207)693-6100 voice and fax,(call first)
Clayarters' Live Chat Room, Fri & Sat Nites at 10 PM EDT & Sun at 1 PM EDT
http://webchat12.wbs.net/webchat3.so?Room=PRIVATE_Clayarters
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Vince Pitelka on thu 1 jan 98
>I think that you can
>learn to become a craftsman BUT I truely do not believe that you can learn
>to be a designer. The ability to design seems to be more or less an
>inherited talent. I think that you can improve your designing skills but I
>believe that you first have to have a certain instinct for it.
Marshall -
I like the tone of your post, but I must take issue with the above. We live
in a society where too many view the role of artist as something lofty and
unreacheable, when in fact every single person has art-making ability inside
them, and the potential to be a great artist. It takes extraordinarily hard
work to develop such ability, but it has little to do with inherited talent.
Some people are born with the ability to draw realistically with no
training, and they are fortunate, but that ability has absolutely nothing to
do with artistic expression or design ability. Those things must be learned
through dogged perseverence and long-term committment.
Becoming a good artist and designer involves making a great deal of art,
studying a great deal of art, taking oneself and one's goals seriously, and
searching inside oneself for original, honest creative expression. This
applies equally to painting, sculpture, and making pots.
And beyond that, HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!!
- Vince
Vince Pitelka - vpitelka@DeKalb.net
Home 615/597-5376, work 615/597-6801, fax 615/597-6803
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Jawoodside on fri 2 jan 98
Vince, you take an egalitarian approach to art-making which reminds me of an
old adage that success is 99% perspiration and only 1% inspiration. And I
would certainly say this to anyone who was studying art with a view to
creating the best work they could make. However, the cold hard facts seem to
favor Marshall's more elitist conclusion that you've either got the spark or
you don't--at least in terms of being able to consistently go back to the
inner well and come up with designs that are fresh, interesting, amusing,
thought-provoking etc. Some of us (well very few) are Mozart and many more of
us are Salieri (referring to the film Amadeus) and some of us just spend a lot
of time trying to figure out which we are. Wish it were otherwise!
Jane Woodside
Clayphil on sat 3 jan 98
I whole heartedly second Vince's post. I have worked, at one point in my life,
as an art therapist and a major portion of the task of applying art as a
theraputic process was to get past the myth that one has to be born with
extordinary talent. Which is, of course poppycock, IMHO. To combat this myth,
I often referred to other fields because the field of art is really no
different and few people succeed in ANY field sans
dedication/committment/perseverence/ etc.
Even natural talent has its limits.
I was interested to learn that Micheal Jordan ( who worked very hard to develop
his talent in the first place) has spent 2 hrs/day shooting freethrows this
season because his average was down.
Goes to show you.
Phil in Chicago
Vince Pitelka on sat 3 jan 98
At 12:18 PM 1/2/98 -0500, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Vince, you take an egalitarian approach to art-making which reminds me of an
>old adage that success is 99% perspiration and only 1% inspiration. And I
>would certainly say this to anyone who was studying art with a view to
>creating the best work they could make. However, the cold hard facts seem to
>favor Marshall's more elitist conclusion that you've either got the spark or
>you don't--at least in terms of being able to consistently go back to the
>inner well and come up with designs that are fresh, interesting, amusing,
>thought-provoking etc.
Jane -
Those who can make really great art are certainly few and far between. But
I still maintain that those who can are the ones who have doggedly
accumulated the technical fluency to "speak the language," and the life
experience to provide inspiration and content, rather than those who have
inherited some spark of inspiration. And remember that many (if not most)
of the world's great artists have experienced long dry periods, where
inspiration was not forthcoming. It seems that the strangest things can
catalyze artistic inspiration initally, or when it returns after a dry spell
- a long trip in the wilderness, a personal trauma, the birth of a child,
the defeating of personal demons, etc. Some artists talk of major
experiences completely separated from their art or craft, which somehow
unlocks the doors of inspiration. So, a great work of art represents a high
degree of technical mastery in a particular media (or combination of media),
but more importantly, it represents some very significant message,
information, or experience. Seems like the great artists are those who have
worked hard to master their craft in order to be able to say something very
significant, or more important, because there was something very significant
they were DRIVEN to say.
I hope I'm not just rambling here . . . . .
- Vince
Vince Pitelka - vpitelka@DeKalb.net
Home 615/597-5376, work 615/597-6801, fax 615/597-6803
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Stephen Mills on sun 4 jan 98
There is another side to this which touches on the nature/nurture
aspect, and I feel puts it somewhere in between. I refer to how we are
taught to learn, not in a book larnin' sense but from how we are taught
to make use of what we see around us, and the thousand and one little
clues that pepper our lives each day. Nurture wherever it takes place,
can expand an "adequate" imagination and turn it into something very
special, as those of us who teach or have taught well know. the
combination of a "Mozart" imagination and good "awakening" makes our
exceptional artist craftsperson. But the rest of us mustn't sink into
our Salierian hole and give up, we have to polish our senses and keep
trying to make use of the myriad grains of inspirational "food" all
around us.
(takes deep breath and wonders what got into him!)
Steve
Bath
UK
Still thriving on the influence of my late (1953) Maternal Grandfather
In message , Jawoodside writes
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Vince, you take an egalitarian approach to art-making which reminds me of an
>old adage that success is 99% perspiration and only 1% inspiration. And I
>would certainly say this to anyone who was studying art with a view to
>creating the best work they could make. However, the cold hard facts seem to
>favor Marshall's more elitist conclusion that you've either got the spark or
>you don't--at least in terms of being able to consistently go back to the
>inner well and come up with designs that are fresh, interesting, amusing,
>thought-provoking etc. Some of us (well very few) are Mozart and many more of
>us are Salieri (referring to the film Amadeus) and some of us just spend a lot
>of time trying to figure out which we are. Wish it were otherwise!
>Jane Woodside
>
--
Steve Mills
Bath
UK
home e-mail: stevemills@mudslinger.demon.co.uk
work e-mail: stevemills@bathpotters.demon.co.uk
kinoko@junction.net on sun 4 jan 98
Marshall.....just jumping in here. Perhaps what makes poor
designers/artists/mechanics is MIS-training at an age when natural human
ability is wholly thwarted in favoure of conformity.At 13:07 1/1/98 EST,
you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>>I think that you can
>>learn to become a craftsman BUT I truely do not believe that you can learn
>>to be a designer. The ability to design seems to be more or less an
>>inherited talent. I think that you can improve your designing skills but I
>>believe that you first have to have a certain instinct for it.
>
>Marshall -
>I like the tone of your post, but I must take issue with the above. We live
>in a society where too many view the role of artist as something lofty and
>unreacheable, when in fact every single person has art-making ability inside
>them, and the potential to be a great artist. It takes extraordinarily hard
>work to develop such ability, but it has little to do with inherited talent.
>Some people are born with the ability to draw realistically with no
>training, and they are fortunate, but that ability has absolutely nothing to
>do with artistic expression or design ability. Those things must be learned
>through dogged perseverence and long-term committment.
>
>Becoming a good artist and designer involves making a great deal of art,
>studying a great deal of art, taking oneself and one's goals seriously, and
>searching inside oneself for original, honest creative expression. This
>applies equally to painting, sculpture, and making pots.
>
>And beyond that, HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!!
>- Vince
>
>Vince Pitelka - vpitelka@DeKalb.net
>Home 615/597-5376, work 615/597-6801, fax 615/597-6803
>Appalachian Center for Crafts
>Tennessee Technological University
>1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
>
Talbott on mon 5 jan 98
I truely hope that I am wrong on this... I hope that one can learn to be an
artist through persistance and determination. But my experiences don't
seem to support the above assumption. I don't consider myself to be an
artist at this point in my life but maybe someday I will reach that level.
I think your statement has a lot of truth to it. I have not really studied
art history enough to know about the early lives of the great artists...
Good point!... could be a good topic for a thesis for someone out there...
Marshall
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Marshall.....just jumping in here. Perhaps what makes poor
>designers/artists/mechanics is MIS-training at an age when natural human
>ability is wholly thwarted in favoure of conformity.At 13:07 1/1/98 EST,
>you wrote:
>>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>>>I think that you can
>>>learn to become a craftsman BUT I truely do not believe that you can learn
>>>to be a designer. The ability to design seems to be more or less an
>>>inherited talent. I think that you can improve your designing skills but I
>>>believe that you first have to have a certain instinct for it.
>>
>>Marshall -
>>I like the tone of your post, but I must take issue with the above. We live
>>in a society where too many view the role of artist as something lofty and
>>unreacheable, when in fact every single person has art-making ability inside
>>them, and the potential to be a great artist. It takes extraordinarily hard
>>work to develop such ability, but it has little to do with inherited talent.
>>Some people are born with the ability to draw realistically with no
>>training, and they are fortunate, but that ability has absolutely nothing to
>>do with artistic expression or design ability. Those things must be learned
>>through dogged perseverence and long-term committment.
>>
>>Becoming a good artist and designer involves making a great deal of art,
>>studying a great deal of art, taking oneself and one's goals seriously, and
>>searching inside oneself for original, honest creative expression. This
>>applies equally to painting, sculpture, and making pots.
>>
>>And beyond that, HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!!
>>- Vince
>>
>>Vince Pitelka - vpitelka@DeKalb.net
>>Home 615/597-5376, work 615/597-6801, fax 615/597-6803
>>Appalachian Center for Crafts
>>Tennessee Technological University
>>1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
>>
101 CLAYART MUGS
2ND ANNUAL CLAYARTERS' GALLERY - NAPLES, MAINE (Summer 1998)
E-MAIL ME FOR AN APPLICATION
http://fmc.utm.edu/~dmcbeth/cag/naples.htm
Celia & Marshall Talbott, Pottery By Celia, Route 114, P O Box 4116,
Naples, Maine 04055-4116,(207)693-6100 voice and fax,(call first)
Clayarters' Live Chat Room, Fri & Sat Nites at 10 PM EDT & Sun at 1 PM EDT
http://webchat12.wbs.net/webchat3.so?Room=PRIVATE_Clayarters
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Dana Henson on tue 6 jan 98
I feel that it is important to recognize that the ability to make art depends
on many factors besides the natural talent to express it. From what I've seen,
most of us have to work very hard to utilize what we've learned and then
discover a way to express our ideas through our work. My ceramics instructor
as an undergraduate (Barbara Frey) always told the beginning ceramics students
that ANYONE can learn to work satisfactorily with clay; some methods working
better than others for different people. So many beginning students of art,
myself included, often feel in the beginning that they cannot possibly be as
good, be as creative, etc. as others appear to be. I'm glad that I did not
hang on to my original beliefs---I cannot imagine doing anything else now!
I am also thankful for instructors that promote confidence in their students as
well as encouragement. It makes all the difference. For those not in a
structured learning environment---don't sell yourself short. I believe that
those on their own and not in a structured learning situation can benefit from
the comments from the Clayart contributors; it is wonderful to have this kind
of feedback and support.
Dana Henson
Martin Schiller on tue 6 jan 98
Art is when you imagine it. And then again when you imagine creating it.
After that most of it is an exercise in craft.
Or would it be better as....After that it becomes a practice of craft.
warm regards, Martin Schiller
Cupertino, Calif
JJHerb on tue 6 jan 98
I will nod to Steve Mills (in Bath, UK, for heavens sake) and his Book-Larnin
effort to accommodate the rougher sensibilities of us colonials, but I don t
think he was quite explicit enough in his protest against the big brother art
police. If I don t have the possibility of creating it, I must not be able to
recognize it either, without the Chicago Art Institute stamp of approval or
blessing from one of the MFA (Marvelous Final Arbiter) guides to good taste.
I really appreciate the efforts of the academics, or more generally "refined
taste makers" to define ART as sacred and then assign themselves to be
priests. It just burns me up.
Art is, I believe, often seen as a well observed and well executed material
response to the human condition. The elevation given it comes both from an
appreciation of the keenness of observation and the excellence of execution,
recognized by other humans who find resonance with their condition. I detest
the idea that I am not qualified to try to achieve some resonance with other
humans through the work of my hands. My ear may not be as keen as Mozart, nor
my eye as piercing as Rembrant, but if my thought or deed can cause a moment
of resonance or revelation in one other human then I am on my way and have
made a mark, at least there.
To deny any of us that possibility is a partial denial of our human potential
and relegates us to a sub-human status. I realize that the Art Elite do, in
fact, consider us such but I resent it. A Lot.
Joseph Herbert
JJHerb@aol.com
Dan Wilson on wed 7 jan 98
Imposing limits on what art can be is imposing limits.
Imposing limits on what craft can be is imposing limits.
In this regard, imposing limits, limits creativity, imagination and
originality.
If anything can be art then art can be craft.
Dan Wilson Wishing you piece of mind.
Leslie Norton on thu 8 jan 98
If you want to be a Craftsman or an Artist and your "Craftmanship" is poor,
You are neither.
Leslie Norton
"Technique and skills must be absorbed and wrapped up and put away to
become such an integral part of yourself that they will be revealed in your
work without your thought"
Shoji Hamada
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dan Wilson [SMTP:dwilson@nas.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 1998 9:08 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list CLAYART
> Subject: Re. Craftsman to Artist
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Imposing limits on what art can be is imposing limits.
> Imposing limits on what craft can be is imposing limits.
> In this regard, imposing limits, limits creativity, imagination and
> originality.
> If anything can be art then art can be craft.
>
> Dan Wilson Wishing you piece of mind.
Dan Wilson on fri 9 jan 98
Leslie,
The notion of "Craftsmanship" is most limiting of all; if one is devoted to
craftsmanship and nothing else. Craftsmanship is not the end but rather a
means by which something is else is expressed. Craftsmanship is relative
and evolves within our experience with materials and techniques. In the end
it is what is expressed; not how it is expressed that makes the difference
between art and craft- craftsman and artist. Craftsmanship is directly
related to materials and techniques. A high level of craftsmanship not only
ensures a high level of material quality in the finished product but also
contributes to clarity in what is being expressed.
On a lighter note: "If you want to be. You are not." Wy Hue Man et al.
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>If you want to be a Craftsman or an Artist and your "Craftmanship" is poor,
>You are neither.
>
>Leslie Norton
Sandra Dwiggins on fri 9 jan 98
I've always told students that technique should be as natural and as
much a part of you as breathing.
Of course, some people do have asthma--but they still breathe, haltingly
and in fits and starts, but all are hopeful that eventually they will breathe
freely and easily.
Sandy.
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