douglas fur on fri 30 apr 10
Help, They're talking about a VAT in the US now
What's your experience of VAT's and the impact on potters?
To my understanding if I pay U$2.00 for materials and make a mug which I
sell for U$20.00 I've got a huge "value added" exposure-
(U$20.00-2.00=3DU$18.00 which looks to me like I've added 18.00 of value)
Does this work out or is it just worried imaging?
DRB
BUrien
Larry Andre on mon 3 may 10
The downside is that the government takes more money from us hard =3D
working people to spend it how they see fit. I favor them reducing taxes =
=3D
so I can have more spendable income. Government gets is money three =3D
ways, taxes, borrow, print more. When they tax it takes money away from =3D
those who spend it and gives it to politicians to spend, when they =3D
borrow it the citizens are required to pay it back plus interest in the =3D
future so Politicians can spend it, when they print it without having a =3D
thriving economy, soon you have out of control inflation that is the =3D
hidden tax because it devalues the money and any money in savings =3D
accounts is devalued. Whenever politicians get their hands on money or =3D
try to control money it is bad. L
From: Bruce=3D20
Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 8:07 PM
To: larry@masonrytoolsonline.com=3D20
Subject: Re: VAT vs. Potters UK and EU members comment
True, it's a luxury - but unlike the Yacht tax, it's equally applied to =3D
all purchases, so instead of the yacht effect (where used yachts and =3D
other luxuries were switched to to the exclusion of new yachts), there's =
=3D
not another place to spend the $$ that's NOT taxed, so there's less =3D
downside effect.
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:02 PM, wrote:
I know plenty of potters that command high dollars for their wares. =3D
Regardless, the 10% will be used by the customer as a negotiating point, =
=3D
to get the price down. Or they might not buy at all, since art is a =3D
luxury.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Bruce"
Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 6:30 PM
To:
Subject: Re: VAT vs. Potters UK and EU members comment
*$25,000* - don't I WISH!!!!!
Yes, it's a national sales tax - and it replaces the excise taxes =3D
(or is
supposed to - will see when/if it heads towards reality down here) - =
=3D
and if
you look in Canada, they've had it for a couple of decades at least =3D
(it was
in place before I left, but I can't recall how long it had been at =3D
that
point - so between 2 and 3 decades). Last I saw, things were still =3D
going on
much as before. Everyone adjusted quickly - and the combined sales =3D
taxes
are about 18% in most places. What we don't see most of the time are =
=3D
the
excise taxes on goods that get rolled into the price - with those =3D
removed,
it makes them visible. Gas is about 50% tax in this area, as I =3D
recall (MD)
- one of the gas companies occasionally puts out stickers with the =3D
tax
amounts on it - so it's possible that the VAT would actually LOWER =3D
gas
prices as the excise taxes would be removed.
=3D20
Bruce on mon 3 may 10
VAT is simply a centrally collected sales tax - say it was 10% on the price
of goods - collected at each point in the manufacturing & sales chain. You
would pay $2.20 for the materials, and your customer would pay $22.00
total. You as the seller would remit to the government $2.00 less the .20
you paid in VAT for the materials (actually, you'd add up all the sales an=
d
purchases across the time period, but you get the idea - accounting
complexity notwithstanding). Not really different from current sales taxe=
s
- except that now you don't get to deduct the sales tax you pay out for
materials from what your customer pays on top of the sale (which you collec=
t
as the agent for the government, whatever level).
Like sales taxes, sometimes the VAT is hidden in the total price - but it
works exactly the same. The usual difference is that right now there's
taxes of varying levels on the raw materials and finished goods - with a
VAT, the idea is one single rate across the board.
On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 7:21 PM, douglas fur <23drb50@gmail.com> wrote:
> Help, They're talking about a VAT in the US now
> What's your experience of VAT's and the impact on potters?
> To my understanding if I pay U$2.00 for materials and make a mug which I
> sell for U$20.00 I've got a huge "value added" exposure-
> (U$20.00-2.00=3DU$18.00 which looks to me like I've added 18.00 of value)
> Does this work out or is it just worried imaging?
> DRB
> BUrien
>
Larry Andre on mon 3 may 10
One thing you did not point out, the VAT is a National Sales Tax, that is o=
n
top of all the other taxes you already pay. So if you have a pot that is
selling for $25,000, the VAT is $2500, and that would increase the price to
$27500,, which might be a deal breaker, so the negotiations might ensue and
you sell your pot for less money to keep the price at the $25000 value.
Washington gets it share, you just might get less. Or you might decide to
work in the gray market and sell the pot for cash and not declare anything,
and we all know the possible complications with this. With a VAT the net
result will be less money in your pocket, deeper reductions in the price of
product and possibly deeper recession because people refuse to pay the tax.
Then how much of a necessity is a piece of pottery, the buyer might decide
to not purchase anything. Remember the last time this happened under Carter
there was the excise tax on expensive boats. The excise tax killed the
expensive boat business in the US and it went offshore and never recovered.
The tax killed the jobs for thousands of Americans, just as the VAT will do=
.
Imagine a gallon of gasoline, at $3.00 per gallon with the VAT it just went
to $3.30 per gallon, and that is taxing the hidden taxes included in the
price of a gallon of gas. In California, we have State Tax, Federal Tax
which computes the price of a gallon of gas, then add to that sales tax at
nearly 10%. Then the money collected from the VAT is put into the hands of
CAREER POLITICIANS who desire to be re-elected, and they spend the
money,(they never save money) because that is the best way to get
re-elected. How many reading this would say if they had $2000 give $1000 to
a total stranger who said "I will spend this in your best interests". That
is exactly what happens with politicians, they say give me that $1000 and I
(the politician) will spend it in your best interest (in areas where they
can use to get re-elected). The Value Added Tax is a really bad idea. Larry
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Bruce"
Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 4:39 PM
To:
Subject: Re: VAT vs. Potters UK and EU members comment
> VAT is simply a centrally collected sales tax - say it was 10% on the
> price
> of goods - collected at each point in the manufacturing & sales chain.
> You
> would pay $2.20 for the materials, and your customer would pay $22.00
> total. You as the seller would remit to the government $2.00 less the .2=
0
> you paid in VAT for the materials (actually, you'd add up all the sales
> and
> purchases across the time period, but you get the idea - accounting
> complexity notwithstanding). Not really different from current sales
> taxes
> - except that now you don't get to deduct the sales tax you pay out for
> materials from what your customer pays on top of the sale (which you
> collect
> as the agent for the government, whatever level).
>
> Like sales taxes, sometimes the VAT is hidden in the total price - but it
> works exactly the same. The usual difference is that right now there's
> taxes of varying levels on the raw materials and finished goods - with a
> VAT, the idea is one single rate across the board.
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 7:21 PM, douglas fur <23drb50@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Help, They're talking about a VAT in the US now
>> What's your experience of VAT's and the impact on potters?
>> To my understanding if I pay U$2.00 for materials and make a mug which I
>> sell for U$20.00 I've got a huge "value added" exposure-
>> (U$20.00-2.00=3DU$18.00 which looks to me like I've added 18.00 of value=
)
>> Does this work out or is it just worried imaging?
>> DRB
>> BUrien
>>
Frances Howard on mon 3 may 10
Douglas, It's a sales tax. We have the same in Canada only called by othe=
r
names. It means that the tax is applied at the final sale, so if you are a
registered business and buy materials from a wholesaler or similar to make
into another article, you should have a tax exempt number so that you eithe=
r
don't pay tax when you buy those materials or you can claim it back later.
But when you sell your mug you have to charge the applicable tax, could be
4%, 14% extra whatever. Then you submit that tax to the government. There
will be all sorts of exemptions however, and it will no doubt give you lots
of headaches trying to work it all out.
If you are not a registered business and make very few mugs and very
little money it may not impact you much. If you have it in the US it will
be differently organised of course. I imagine there are several hundred
thousand pages written about this tax in Canada. and Europe too.
Frances Howard.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "douglas fur" <23drb50@GMAIL.COM>
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 8:21 PM
To:
Subject: VAT vs. Potters UK and EU members comment
> Help, They're talking about a VAT in the US now
> What's your experience of VAT's and the impact on potters?
> To my understanding if I pay U$2.00 for materials and make a mug which I
> sell for U$20.00 I've got a huge "value added" exposure-
> (U$20.00-2.00=3DU$18.00 which looks to me like I've added 18.00 of value)
> Does this work out or is it just worried imaging?
> DRB
> BUrien
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2852 - Release Date: 05/03/10
> 15:27:00
>
Bruce on mon 3 may 10
*$25,000* - don't I WISH!!!!!
Yes, it's a national sales tax - and it replaces the excise taxes (or is
supposed to - will see when/if it heads towards reality down here) - and if
you look in Canada, they've had it for a couple of decades at least (it was
in place before I left, but I can't recall how long it had been at that
point - so between 2 and 3 decades). Last I saw, things were still going o=
n
much as before. Everyone adjusted quickly - and the combined sales taxes
are about 18% in most places. What we don't see most of the time are the
excise taxes on goods that get rolled into the price - with those removed,
it makes them visible. Gas is about 50% tax in this area, as I recall (MD)
- one of the gas companies occasionally puts out stickers with the tax
amounts on it - so it's possible that the VAT would actually LOWER gas
prices as the excise taxes would be removed.
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 9:18 PM, wrote:
> One thing you did not point out, the VAT is a National Sales Tax, that is
> on top of all the other taxes you already pay. So if you have a pot that =
is
> selling for $25,000
>
>
marci and rex on tue 4 may 10
At 08:34 PM 5/4/2010, jonathan byler wrote:
> you can't fight the walmart's of the world running you out of town and
>running you out of business if you don't have any money or a say in
>how things go.
And yet there are plenty of potters ( and other businesses ) out
there making a living.....Hmmmmmmmmmm.
How'd THAT happen ?
marci the chinapainter
jonathan byler on tue 4 may 10
we have a slightly progressive tax system in the US, where reliance on
sales taxes is at a minimum, and reliance on progressive income taxes
with higher rates for people who earn more money. (although there is
a massive loophole for money-pushers). there are a lot of people, and
most of them ignorant poor folks, who would love to see this changed.
I can't see why, since it isn't going to put any more money in most of
their pockets, and it isn't going to get them any more paying
customers. and by poor, I mean all of us who aren't millionaires. if
you want to begin to pay for everything with only a flat tax or a VAT
tax, you are going to have to start with a rate closer to 50% than 17.
rich people pay (or should pay) more taxes because they receive the
benefit of a disproportionate of the services from the taxes
collected. with a VAT, this just doesn't happen. yeah, yeah, I know
taxes suck, but do you know what? the places with the highest taxes
in this country "suffer" from the highest standard of living for the
most part. like having more live births per 1000, less crime, better
public schools, better public infrastructure, better hospitals, etc.
find me a potter who makes over $250K a year and I'll find you a guy
who it *might* be in his best interests to go for a flat tax or a VAT
tax. although if he thought about his long term interests, the
degredation to society from not enough good government services will
eventually cost him, both in increased costs and fewer potential
clients. all these rich people bitch about taxes, they just want it
all for free, though. It is their businesses (like walmart) that they
want to open that need new roads and sewers and all the rest built at
great cost to the community... and what do they want to give back?
100 minimum wage jobs? really? ayn rand is dead. it's a shame her
b.s. selfish philosophy is not dead too.
On May 4, 2010, at 9:59 PM, marci and rex wrote:
> At 08:34 PM 5/4/2010, jonathan byler wrote:
>> you can't fight the walmart's of the world running you out of town
>> and
>> running you out of business if you don't have any money or a say in
>> how things go.
>
>
> And yet there are plenty of potters ( and other businesses ) out
> there making a living.....Hmmmmmmmmmm.
> How'd THAT happen ?
>
> marci the chinapainter
>
phil on tue 4 may 10
http://fc01.deviantart.com/fs16/f/2007/124/3/4/Death_and_Taxes__2008_by_mib=
i.jpg
----- Original Message -----
From: "KATHI LESUEUR"
> Everyone thinks they are taxed too much.
They are correct.
> Everyone calls for smaller
> government.
Well, not everyone, but, I for one do.
> That is, until THEIR crisis happens.
There is not nor would there ever be any such thing for me.
Other than to defend our Boarders, I do not want our Government to do
anything as far as any assertive meddling or 'helping' in anyone's affairs,
anywhere.
> Then it's "why isn't
> the government acting fast enough?"
It is an error in taste and judgement to be wanting more than a bare minimu=
n
of anything in any way from the federal government.
Their business was to minimally regulate Commerce, see to tarriffs for
imported Goods, and, to over see co-ordinations of Military matters as
relate to an actual defence of our Boarders and Shores...and to Coin Money.
Anything much past that becomes a nightmare for everyone.
> Witness the catastrophe on the
> Gulf coast. People are calling for the government to do more to stop
> the oil leak. Just a month ago they were calling for the government
> to get out of the way of oil and let them drill more.
'people'...in this context, are the very stimulous for contempt and cynicis=
m
which they then get only too well shown.
> Just a month
> ago people were saying "self-responsibility".
Uhhhh...to whom does the misfortunate Oil Rig belong?
And, have they not the resources to ammend the problem?
It's a mile odd deep under Water...a dificult undertaking...costly,
etc...with maybe no good method handy.
> Now people all along
> the Gulf coast are looking for the government to help them through
> this crisis.
Well...five generations of public schooling as victim-role-indoctrination,
surely helps.
> They will loose their jobs, their homes, their
> environment will be ruined.
It's a drag...to be sure...
I see no reason why the owners or other responsible parties associated with
the misfortunate Oil Rig, should not be sued for damages.
> I guarantee they will not be yelling for
> smaller government. Of course, all of this costs money. And, where
> does that money come from?
Good question...
From 'faith' I suppose...or anxiety...if one can even tell the difference.
> KATHI LESUEUR
> http://www.lesueurclaywork.com
KATHI LESUEUR on tue 4 may 10
Everyone thinks they are taxed too much. Everyone calls for smaller
government. That is, until THEIR crisis happens. Then it's "why isn't
the government acting fast enough?" Witness the catastrophe on the
Gulf coast. People are calling for the government to do more to stop
the oil leak. Just a month ago they were calling for the government
to get out of the way of oil and let them drill more. Just a month
ago people were saying "self-responsibility". Now people all along
the Gulf coast are looking for the government to help them through
this crisis. They will loose their jobs, their homes, their
environment will be ruined. I guarantee they will not be yelling for
smaller government. Of course, all of this costs money. And, where
does that money come from?
KATHI LESUEUR
http://www.lesueurclaywork.com
On May 4, 2010, at 1:24 AM, Larry Andre wrote:
> The downside is that the government takes more money from us hard
> working people to spend it how they see fit. I favor them reducing
> taxes so I can have more spendable income. Government gets is money
> three ways, taxes, borrow, print more. When they tax it takes money
> away from those who spend it and gives it to politicians to spend,
> when they borrow it the citizens are required to pay it back plus
> interest in the future so Politicians can spend it, when they print
> it without having a thriving economy, soon you have out of control
> inflation that is the hidden tax because it devalues the money and
> any money in savings accounts is devalued. Whenever politicians get
> their hands on money or try to control money it is bad. L
>
>
Randall Moody on tue 4 may 10
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 7:48 AM, KATHI LESUEUR wr=
ote:
> Everyone thinks they are taxed too much. Everyone calls for smaller
> government. That is, until THEIR crisis happens. Then it's "why isn't
> the government acting fast enough?" Witness the catastrophe on the
> Gulf coast. People are calling for the government to do more to stop
> the oil leak. Just a month ago they were calling for the government
> to get out of the way of oil and let them drill more. Just a month
> ago people were saying "self-responsibility". Now people all along
> the Gulf coast are looking for the government to help them through
> this crisis. They will loose their jobs, their homes, their
> environment will be ruined. I guarantee they will not be yelling for
> smaller government. Of course, all of this costs money. And, where
> does that money come from?
>
> KATHI LESUEUR
> http://www.lesueurclaywork.com
>
>
I think the only way a VAT would work in the US is if other taxes were done
away with. I personally would like to see a fair tax in which everyone pays
the same percentage. To me that is the only truly equitable way to assess
taxes without punishing achievement and rewarding non-achievement.
I think that a VAT if simply layered on our present form of taxation would
be bad for all small businesses not just potters.
--
Randall in Atlanta
http://wrandallmoody.com/home.html
Lis Allison on tue 4 may 10
On Monday 03 May 2010, you wrote:
> Douglas, It's a sales tax. We have the same in Canada only called by
> other names. It means that the tax is applied at the final sale, so
> if you are a registered business and buy materials from a wholesaler
> or similar to make into another article, you should have a tax exempt
> number so that you either don't pay tax when you buy those materials
> or you can claim it back later. But when you sell your mug you have
> to charge the applicable tax, could be 4%, 14% extra whatever. Then
> you submit that tax to the government. There will be all sorts of
> exemptions however, and it will no doubt give you lots of headaches
> trying to work it all out.
Frances, don't forget that Ontario is going to a new form of the tax this
July. They're calling it the HST and the rules will be exactly the same as
the current rules for our current GST. For those lucky enough not to know
what these acronyms mean, GST stands for 'Goods and Services Tax', and HST
stands for 'Harmonized Tax'. The sales tax we have been used to as well
was known as the, guess what, PST or 'Provincial Sales Tax'. The idea
behind the PST originally was to raise tax money by taxing disposable
income. Now they are taxing all income, really.
The good news for artists/craftspeople in Ontario is that you don't need
to collect the new HST until you earn over $30,000 per year and most of us
don't. So our customers will think they are getting a tax break when they
buy our stuff. Of course, we will have to raise our prices a bit to cover
the extra we will have to pay for our 'inputs', especially, I'm guessing,
hydro costs, so they won't really be getting a break, but hey, government
is all about perceptions, after all.
BTW, the new HST will have very few exceptions.
Much as we all hate parting with money we feel is ours, we do have to
somehow pay our way out of the 2008 melt-down. So a tax on goods and
services may be the fairest way out.
Lis
Lis
--
Elisabeth Allison
Pine Ridge Studio
www.Pine-Ridge-Studio.blogspot.com
jonathan byler on tue 4 may 10
since we have turned this into politics, may I remind those that the
whole point of taxes is not just to pay for government, but to
redistribute wealth in society? capitalism by its very nature
aggregates wealth into the hands of a small number of people who may
or may not be any more hard working than anyone else. Taxes are an
antidote to this poison to society. flat tax and sales/consumption
taxes only serve to continue the trend in capitalist economies towards
the aggregation of mass amounts of wealth into a very small number of
hands.
you cannot have a free and democratic society if you don't have at
least a somewhat equitable distribution of wealth throughout the
society. we as artists and potters and small business owners could
benefit from a simpler and more transparent tax system in which we had
less paperwork to fill out. we would have more time to spend creating
and making wealth. A flat tax or a VAT tax or any other regressive
tax such as these, would however, poison the possibility of small
business owners to ever get ahead. Now that money =3D speech, and
corporations are people too, you and I and just about everyone on
clayart really won't have a say in the matter one way or another. you
can't fight the walmart's of the world running you out of town and
running you out of business if you don't have any money or a say in
how things go. I can't see personally how any small business owner or
potter could argue for a flat tax, when all it would do is drive him
out of business.
On May 4, 2010, at 7:16 AM, Randall Moody wrote:
> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 7:48 AM, KATHI LESUEUR > >wrote:
>
>> Everyone thinks they are taxed too much. Everyone calls for smaller
>> government. That is, until THEIR crisis happens. Then it's "why isn't
>> the government acting fast enough?" Witness the catastrophe on the
>> Gulf coast. People are calling for the government to do more to stop
>> the oil leak. Just a month ago they were calling for the government
>> to get out of the way of oil and let them drill more. Just a month
>> ago people were saying "self-responsibility". Now people all along
>> the Gulf coast are looking for the government to help them through
>> this crisis. They will loose their jobs, their homes, their
>> environment will be ruined. I guarantee they will not be yelling for
>> smaller government. Of course, all of this costs money. And, where
>> does that money come from?
>>
>> KATHI LESUEUR
>> http://www.lesueurclaywork.com
>>
>>
> I think the only way a VAT would work in the US is if other taxes
> were done
> away with. I personally would like to see a fair tax in which
> everyone pays
> the same percentage. To me that is the only truly equitable way to
> assess
> taxes without punishing achievement and rewarding non-achievement.
>
> I think that a VAT if simply layered on our present form of taxation
> would
> be bad for all small businesses not just potters.
>
> --
> Randall in Atlanta
> http://wrandallmoody.com/home.html
marci and rex on wed 5 may 10
At 11:15 PM 5/4/2010, jonathan byler wrote:
> the places with the highest taxes
>in this country "suffer" from the highest standard of living for the
>most part. like having more live births per 1000, less crime, better
>public schools, better public infrastructure, better hospitals, etc.
Really ? ....like....................um.... Buffalo, New York ,
for example?
marci
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