John Rodgers on sat 22 may 10
Many of us work with table saws, so ya gotta see this guy deliberately
put his hand in a running table saw blade!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=3DE3mzhvMgrLE&NR=3D1
--
John Rodgers
Clayartist and Moldmaker
88'GL VW Bus Driver
Chelsea, AL
Http://www.moldhaus.com
John Rodgers on sat 22 may 10
*It's all about avoiding those little adventures called 'accidents' -
unexpected events that occur regardless of the best of planning.
John
John Rodgers
Clayartist and Moldmaker
88'GL VW Bus Driver
Chelsea, AL
Http://www.moldhaus.com
On 5/22/2010 8:29 PM, James Freeman wrote:
> John, et alii...
>
> This device has been in existence for a long time. I recall reading
> about it in one of my woodworking magazines probably a dozen years
> ago. At that time, the gentleman had no luck whatsoever in selling
> the device to saw manufacturers. It was, as I recall, a $500
> proposition, at least at that time. Even when added to the cost of a
> $2000 cabinet saw, it was a pretty pricey option, and you could
> completely forget about adding it to the price of a cheapo $500
> contractors' saw. The saw manufacturers did not feel that there would
> be a big enough market for saws so equipped, and they were probably
> quite correct. Experienced woodworkers merely decided to keep their
> hands away from the blade.
>
> The inventor then banked on getting someone to build a specialized saw
> for woodshop classes, playing off of the fear of lawsuits. Problem
> was, that was right about the time that the last of the woodshop
> classes were being abandoned, so bye-bye market.
>
> A properly trained individual does not need a Saw-Stop. Nor does a
> person with common sense. An untrained individual should never be
> allowed to operate a potentially dangerous machine, nor should an
> immature person, nor a dope. There is simply no way to cut yourself
> on a tablesaw without sticking your hand into the blade. Kickback is
> the REAL danger when using a tablesaw, and the saw stop does
> absolutely nothing to ameliorate this hazard.
>
> There are some machines in the typical shop that ARE capable of
> dragging you into an injury, without you having to stick your hand
> into it, but the tablesaw is not one of them.
>
> Now, none of this is intended in any way to discredit what is, in
> fact, a really slick device, and if anyone has an extra $500 they
> don't need, then by all means buy the Saw-Stop. And yes, if I were a
> school administrator I would probably pop for the device just to help
> in the defense of frivolous lawsuits.
>
> For whatever it's worth.
>
> ...James
>
> James Freeman
>
> "All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice. I
> should not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
> -Michel de Montaigne
>
> http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
> http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 8:07 PM, John Rodgers wrote:
>
>> It seems the wrong emphasis is being placed at the school. Safety
>> observances are a must - BUT - what is an accident? It is the
>> unexpected that happens in spite of the very best of planning. That's
>> why it's called an accident. The cost of fixing the machine is nothing
>> compared to the cost of the loss of a hand, fingers, medical expenses
>> related to same, and a huge lawsuit against the school. What is the
>> school going to do - leave the equipment off the saw for fear of
>> damaging the machine?? No way. This new safety equipment is going to
>> open a door to all kinds of lawsuits if saws in schools aren't equipped
>> with them, and if the safety equipment is disabled. I expect to see a
>> wave of these things coming out to be retrofitted. I would think that
>> given our litigous society, no school could afford to be without them,
>> now that they are available. .
>>
>>
>
>
phil on sat 22 may 10
Hi James, all...
I quite agree.
I had used other's Table Saws a little, and, I had brooded a great deal on
what I did not like about them.
I tried to imagine critically all I could about how a Table Saw works, what
goes on with the Wood, and, how these may be respected...and read all I
could along these lines also.
When I got my first Table Saw, I threw away the Blade Guard, threw away the
anti-kickback Pawl arrangement, threw away the cheezy stamped Steel Fence,
( Saw was a 10 Inch Sears and Roebuck 'Craftsman' Model made in the 1950s,
Cast Iron Top and innards, Stamped Steel Base...had lain in someone's side
yard for a decade and I restored and rebuilt it, built a sturdy Stand for
it, got 'Wings' for it, and put to an enormous amount of use thereafter, )
made my own Wooden Cam-Locking Fence, made sure the Belt tension was slack
enough for the Bearings to last for-ever, and never looked back...refining
things from there, soon enough.
Wood which is going to mis-behave from internal stresses or other faults,
should not be on the Saw in the first place...or, requires to be treated
deferentially, if it is to be Sawn.
Materials not having had one edge, or, one edge and one face Jointed
straight and flat, should
generally not be on the Saw in the first place.
Any Wood which is signalling of posessing internal stresses wishing to pinc=
h
or open into a 'V' or into a combination of horizontal and vertical bending
into whatever symetry of bifurkation, as it is being cut, if not identified
and rejected prior to being
brought to the Saw ( as it should be! by the cues and clues it has going
already to the Hand and Eye ) , I would bring slowly 'back' or lift off of
the Blade, soon as I noticed it doing that, rather than suffer the behavior
of the Board as it is mis-behaving for the progress of the Kerf allowing
internal streses to bend the respective sides one way or another, along wit=
h
whatever else.
People who have a basis in working Wood with Hand Tools, tended to be much
more aware and sensitive and interested to their materials, refractive
indices, grain configurations, weight, 'feel', on and on, and to their
Machines ( to say noting of
having their Blades 'sharp' ) than people who had done nothing but bully or
brutalize materials with Horse Power, and who end up operating a Table Saw
then, at best, on the basis of a bully and a rube, with maybe some cursory
instruction from others who had never had a right foundation or
understanding or interest, either.
I have probably Sawn enough Wood to reach to the Moon, or the Yukon anyway,
but even if not, I have never had a 'kick back', or any other regret or
misadventure in Table Sawing, and I merely squint hard or turn away when
anticipating those
occasional 'exploding loose Knots' some Species may have...owing to paying
an easy critical attention to the Materials...to how things are going as
they go, setting the Fence rightly ( far end being a little farther from th=
e
line of the Blade, than the close end ) having a 'low' narrowish Fence I ca=
n
have fingers around as I feed past the Blade, Thumb behind the Wood, etc,
and electing a right
presence of mind when operating the Saw ( ie, no mind wandering...no
slipping into day dreaming, no thinking about sex, food, Cars, rent, Girls,
Supper, how someone said something which disappointed or offended, or
anything else...do that, and you WILL get hurt!...usually within
seconds...).
Had a six foot Cedar 1x4 come back out of the old 12 Inch 'Parks' Thickness
Planer one time, got me right in the area betwen Solar Plexus and upper
Abdomen. The old Parks is on a tallish Stand, so that is the height of the
Platen.
I was thicknessing some five hundred odd Fence Pickets for a job...having
Jointed one edge, one face...Sawn to width, then was onto thickness Planing
their last rough face and it's hills and dales, prior to cutting the tops t=
o
an ornamental point.
Glad I had not made the top 'points' yet, had I fed that Board
bottom-end-first!
Anyway, usually I'd stagger feed one Board on each side of the infeed Table=
,
so the Feed Rollers could get a good grip on both Boards, everything smooth
and steady, secure, staggering their feed as I went to keep the flow going
nicely.
Deciding serendipitously to experiment with idiocy, ( I knew better, but, o=
h
well ! and too, this was a long time ago, too, ) to favor saving a little
time, I introduced a third Board, in the middle, as the peripheral two were
going through in their stagger.
Well...last thing I remember, the middle one was almost through, side ones
part way in and part way through, when I was incipiently remembering that
the side two
m-i-g-h-t have more thickness to them going 'in' than the middle one has,
or even vice versa ( idiot!! ) and I just was seeing the middle one kinda
vibrated a little, it was almost all the way through, when, "WHAMMO!!!" cam=
e
out so fast I never even saw it happen, just had it hit me right in the hig=
h
Stomach spot there, just below the Solar Plexus.
I sat down fast, doubled over...and could not breathe at all for what seeme=
d
like for-ever...could not utter a peep either...could not do anything but
sort of softly rock a little bit with my arms folded over the area of the
Whammo...and, it hurt, too...hurt real good.
I do not think Mr. Mike Tyson could have done any better on me with a punch=
,
than that Board did.
I wanted to laugh, but could not...automatic Tears were rolling down my
cheeks too, if memory serve.
I was sore for a week, maybe more...walked around like-an-"L" the rest of
that day, and most of ythe next day, too...slept like an "L"...
Lol...
Priceless!
And hey, that's the real Old Time Religion too...you pays yer Tuition to
'reality', and 'reality' respects your gesture, and respects you, and gives
back whatever it is disposed to instruct regarding it.
"The Great School"
Fine with me...
Love,
Phil
Lv
Vince Pitelka on sat 22 may 10
Wayne Seidl wrote:
Now, they need to invent one for when you try to stick your foot in your
mouth.
Excellent suggestion, Wayne. I envision a simple spring-loaded brace-like
device triggered as soon as the user starts to stick foot in mouth, causing
the foot to swing rapidly in the opposite direction and kick the user in th=
e
butt. Conditioned response would soon reduce incidence of sticking foot in
mouth.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Vince Pitelka on sat 22 may 10
James Freeman wrote:
A properly trained individual does not need a Saw-Stop. Nor does a
person with common sense. An untrained individual should never be
allowed to operate a potentially dangerous machine, nor should an
immature person, nor a dope. There is simply no way to cut yourself
on a tablesaw without sticking your hand into the blade. Kickback is
the REAL danger when using a tablesaw, and the saw stop does
absolutely nothing to ameliorate this hazard.
There are some machines in the typical shop that ARE capable of
dragging you into an injury, without you having to stick your hand
into it, but the tablesaw is not one of them.
James -
Oh goodness. What an odd post. The tablesaw is among the most dangerous
pieces of equipment in any woodshop, and until the wood studio at the Craft
Center replaced their Powermatic cabinet saws with SawStops, the tablesaws
were the only pieces of equipment in the entire Appalachian Center for Craf=
t
that had every caused serious injury. I appreciate that you give SawStop
credit for being a really slick device. Otherwise most of what you say is
self-righteous and arrogant. I have known many professional fine
woodworkers in my life, and several have experienced very serious injuries
at the tablesaw (from the blade, not from kick-back) - injuries that would
have been prevented by the SawStop.
Graham Campbell runs our wood program, and he is one of the best fine
woodworking instructors in North America. Our program is furniture-based.
Some students make fine furniture, and some make wood sculpture, but they
all learn the technology and technique of fine furniture. Graham replaced
two perfectly good Powermatic cabinet saws with SawStops, and they perform
as well as the Powermatics in ever way, but with that added measure of
safety.
John Rodgers was right. The cost of fixing the machine after the SawStop
mechanism fires off (replacing the blade plus the cartridge that stops the
blade in a tiny fraction of a second when the blade comes in contact with
flesh) is nothing in comparison to the cost and trauma of a serious injury.
Of course schools and other institutions are concerned about liability, but
any assumption that this is the only reason SawStops are installed in
commercial and school shops is faulty. There are many people like me and
Graham Campbell who have seen table-saw injuries happen to even the most
thoughtful, careful, well-trained woodworkers, and any investment that help=
s
avoid that is well-spent.
You can supervise your own use of your own table-saw every time you use it,
but if you were in charge of a commercial shop or a school shop, could you
supervise every person using the table saw every time they used it? Of
course not. No matter how well you train a woodworker to use the tablesaw
properly, there is always the chance that something will startle them, or
they will push themselves a little to hard to meet a deadline, or will try
to complete a project when they have had too little sleep (or hundreds of
other possibilities - use your imagination). In any commercial, group, or
academic shop, it makes little sense to NOT have a SawStop tablesaw. Fine
woodworking tools are expensive, and the SawStop professional cabinet saw i=
s
no more expensive than the equivalent Powermatic cabinet saw.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Phoenix Rising Farm on sat 22 may 10
There is a buzz about a lawsuit filed fairly recently.
Apparently, a big box hardware store with the orange logo "copied" a
similar design
for a radial arm saw without permission,
tried to market it as their own
and refused to pay the inventor.
Another reason patents can work.
Go here:
http://toolguyd.com/2010/05/update-about-home-depot-patent-infringement-sui=
t/
Personally, I love the idea. Is the $60 cost to replace the damaged
components
(when activated, watch the video) worth your finger? You betcha!
When my table saw finally dies, I'm getting one of those.
Now, they need to invent one for when you try to stick your foot in your
mouth.
Best,
Wayne Seidl
who still has all his fingers and toes, by sheer luck more than skill
Phoenix Rising Farm
393 on the Houlton Road
Waite, Maine 04492
A proud member of the
Washington County Food Alliance
On 5/22/2010 1:11 AM, John Rodgers wrote:
> Many of us work with table saws, so ya gotta see this guy deliberately
> put his hand in a running table saw blade!!!!
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=3DE3mzhvMgrLE&NR=3D1
>
>
> --
> John Rodgers
> Clayartist and Moldmaker
> 88'GL VW Bus Driver
> Chelsea, AL
> Http://www.moldhaus.com
>
Randall Moody on sat 22 may 10
On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 1:11 AM, John Rodgers wrote:
> Many of us work with table saws, so ya gotta see this guy deliberately
> put his hand in a running table saw blade!!!!
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=3DE3mzhvMgrLE&NR=3D1
>
>
> --
> John Rodgers
> Clayartist and Moldmaker
> 88'GL VW Bus Driver
> Chelsea, AL
> Http://www.moldhaus.com
>
Incredible machine. BUT very expensive to replace everything once the stop
occurs. The design shop at one of our local universities has one and they
really stress to the students that it will be their pocket book that pays
for replacement of the blade etc.
--
Randall in Atlanta
http://wrandallmoody.com/home.html
bill geisinger on sat 22 may 10
Yes it's like a miracle! there is one of these on the table saw at school
and there are a whole lot of people breathing easier knowing no more cuts t=
o
the body can happen by an accident.
bill in sebastopol
On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 10:11 PM, John Rodgers wrote:
> Many of us work with table saws, so ya gotta see this guy deliberately
> put his hand in a running table saw blade!!!!
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=3DE3mzhvMgrLE&NR=3D1
>
>
> --
> John Rodgers
> Clayartist and Moldmaker
> 88'GL VW Bus Driver
> Chelsea, AL
> Http://www.moldhaus.com
>
John Rodgers on sat 22 may 10
It seems the wrong emphasis is being placed at the school. Safety
observances are a must - BUT - what is an accident? It is the
unexpected that happens in spite of the very best of planning. That's
why it's called an accident. The cost of fixing the machine is nothing
compared to the cost of the loss of a hand, fingers, medical expenses
related to same, and a huge lawsuit against the school. What is the
school going to do - leave the equipment off the saw for fear of
damaging the machine?? No way. This new safety equipment is going to
open a door to all kinds of lawsuits if saws in schools aren't equipped
with them, and if the safety equipment is disabled. I expect to see a
wave of these things coming out to be retrofitted. I would think that
given our litigous society, no school could afford to be without them,
now that they are available. .
John
John Rodgers
Clayartist and Moldmaker
88'GL VW Bus Driver
Chelsea, AL
Http://www.moldhaus.com
On 5/22/2010 8:11 AM, Randall Moody wrote:
> On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 1:11 AM, John Rodgers wrote:
>
>
>> Many of us work with table saws, so ya gotta see this guy deliberately
>> put his hand in a running table saw blade!!!!
>>
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=3DE3mzhvMgrLE&NR=3D1
>>
>>
>> --
>> John Rodgers
>> Clayartist and Moldmaker
>> 88'GL VW Bus Driver
>> Chelsea, AL
>> Http://www.moldhaus.com
>>
>>
> Incredible machine. BUT very expensive to replace everything once the sto=
p
> occurs. The design shop at one of our local universities has one and they
> really stress to the students that it will be their pocket book that pays
> for replacement of the blade etc.
>
> --
> Randall in Atlanta
> http://wrandallmoody.com/home.html
>
>
>
Patty on sat 22 may 10
We have a Sawstop table saw and as I understand it, the stop mechanism will
activate if the wood is to green. Replacement of the mechanism and blade
after a "STOP" will run about $60. (Cheaper than a finger.) However, if
you send a picture of your finger with the small scratch that it received
from the blade, they will replace the mechanism for free. They do not
replace the mechanism if you activate the "STOP" with a frankfurter or gree=
n
wood. We have never put our saw to the test, and hope not to. The store
offered to demonstrate with a wiener but we said we were satisfied seeing
the video and they gave a collective sigh of relief. The saw itself is
priced a bit above comparable saws. It comes in two or three models. They
are well built saws in everyway, according to my husband and have two dust
collection ports.
Schools are buying them. Any cost beats supporting a kid for the rest of
his life.
This woodworker's wife endorses this saw.
Patty Kaliher
James Freeman on sat 22 may 10
John, et alii...
This device has been in existence for a long time. I recall reading
about it in one of my woodworking magazines probably a dozen years
ago. At that time, the gentleman had no luck whatsoever in selling
the device to saw manufacturers. It was, as I recall, a $500
proposition, at least at that time. Even when added to the cost of a
$2000 cabinet saw, it was a pretty pricey option, and you could
completely forget about adding it to the price of a cheapo $500
contractors' saw. The saw manufacturers did not feel that there would
be a big enough market for saws so equipped, and they were probably
quite correct. Experienced woodworkers merely decided to keep their
hands away from the blade.
The inventor then banked on getting someone to build a specialized saw
for woodshop classes, playing off of the fear of lawsuits. Problem
was, that was right about the time that the last of the woodshop
classes were being abandoned, so bye-bye market.
A properly trained individual does not need a Saw-Stop. Nor does a
person with common sense. An untrained individual should never be
allowed to operate a potentially dangerous machine, nor should an
immature person, nor a dope. There is simply no way to cut yourself
on a tablesaw without sticking your hand into the blade. Kickback is
the REAL danger when using a tablesaw, and the saw stop does
absolutely nothing to ameliorate this hazard.
There are some machines in the typical shop that ARE capable of
dragging you into an injury, without you having to stick your hand
into it, but the tablesaw is not one of them.
Now, none of this is intended in any way to discredit what is, in
fact, a really slick device, and if anyone has an extra $500 they
don't need, then by all means buy the Saw-Stop. And yes, if I were a
school administrator I would probably pop for the device just to help
in the defense of frivolous lawsuits.
For whatever it's worth.
...James
James Freeman
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice. I
should not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 8:07 PM, John Rodgers wrote:
> It seems the wrong emphasis is being placed at the school. Safety
> observances are a must - BUT - what is an accident? It is the
> unexpected =3DA0that happens in spite of the very best of planning. That'=
s
> why it's called an accident. The cost of fixing the machine is nothing
> compared to the cost of the loss of a hand, fingers, medical expenses
> related to same, and a huge lawsuit against the school. What is the
> school going to do - leave the equipment off the saw for fear of
> damaging the machine?? No way. This new safety equipment is going to
> open a door to all kinds of lawsuits if saws in schools aren't equipped
> with them, and if the safety equipment is =3DA0disabled. I expect to see =
a
> wave of these things coming out to be retrofitted. I would think that
> given our litigous society, no school could afford to be without them,
> now that they are available. .
>
phil on sun 23 may 10
Hi Mike, all...
Below...amid...just a little...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike"
>I haven't heard this mentioned yet, but first thing I made when I bought
> a tablesaw was as set of push sticks, so that when I was working close
> to the blade, my fingers weren't there. Never come close to chopping off
> any fingers that way. Have had trouble with kickback on occasion, with
> or without the push sticks.
Push Sticks are well worth thinking about, definitely...though sadly, as fa=
r
as I have seen, most Push Sticks are poorly designed and likely to invite
problems if used for 'pushing'...at least the one's I used to see in
people's Shops, or in various Books, scared me anyway.
Having one's Blade set no higher than need be, is another issue many seem t=
o
go awry with for setting their Blade too high for the Work, which tends als=
o
to proceed those 'accidents' where injurys
worth mentioning, occur.
The Saw Blade should be 'sharp', and, brought up no higher than to be just
through the thickness of the Work being Sawn.
In the Video of the 'SAWSTOP' the operatives had the Saw Blade absurdly
'high' for that plywood to be cut.
Those people should not be operating any Table Saws, 'SAWSTOP' or not.
I have been out of the loop a while far as keeping up with any status quo i=
n
all this, so maybe improvements in 'Push Sticks' have become more common
knowledge, and practice, than had been,
and if so, forgive me for not knowing if it has.
( Push Sticks on Jointers, 'ditto' - shudder...)
At any rate, in case they have not improved since last I looked, they need
to be used more as a hold-down and in-effect 'pull' device, ( pulling from
just ahead of the rear as they keep the work securely 'down' flat for the
Work's
actual scale or length ) than to be used in pushing Material from the rear,
or merely the edge of the rear,
where, especially with the dulled Blades most people have running in their
overpowered loud, noisy, ear splitting
Saws, or regardless, unless the Wood or other material is kept down flat an=
d
steady on
the Saw Table as it is being fed, or if having hill and dales to it for not
having had one face and one edge Jointed first, it can discretely begin to
raise up on the
Blade as it is being fed through, and, suddenly catch and slam down and bac=
k
with terrific force.
If Sawing lengths of Hill and Dale un-Jointed Boards, one needs to show the=
m
the deference their safe Sawing requires, and not push down on a thiner end=
,
to feed the mid part further, or in other ways also, make sure what is at
the Blade is "down" securely to the Table, lest it rise 'up' and you get a
'WHAMMO!' to rebuke you ( you figurative plural of course) .
The only time I ever used anything which could be thought of as being like =
a
Push Stick, was when there was too little room for my Thumb or Thumb and
hooked INdex Finger between Fence
and Blade...where I would use a long-bearing-surface hook-end device of
needed base width, taller than
the Fence, made of Wood or Medex or other, having some tiny pointed Nails
barely protruding for it's contact surface, or, some medium coarse Abrasive
Paper glued on to it's contact surface, to both hold the slender pieces
down, and, to positively bring them past the Blade for being re-sawn or cut
to width for having been narrow in the first place, or, to guide/secure/pul=
l
a narrow piece being cut from a wide one, through and past the Blade, also.
In production Work, Feather Boards, when used on the Table, and on a Fence
or pro-tem Fence accessory or stand-in, having a high vertical bearing area
for them, are also very good for situations of re-Sawing slender pieces.
Feather Boards merely on the Table surface, not so good...as the slender
pieces can rise up and get spoiled by the Blade's Teeth, or have other
troubles.
> I've cut myself far more often with hand tools than power tools. Mostly
> minor stuff. One time I kept ending up with these really fine cuts
> across my fingers, almost invisible but stung. Spent a good part of the
> previous day honing my bench chisels and back lapped them on the strop
> quite a bit. The back corner edges of the chisels had become quite sharp
> and were slicing me when I held them close to the tip.
People new to Carving Chisels, similarly, traditionally, tend to find it
easy to make sudden unanticipated cuts or punctures or slices on their Hand=
s
or Fingers or
Arms or Thighs or other
areas, especially if slipping and overshooting off the Work and into
whatever else. Whittlers too...
Projects slated to be stained darkish 'Red' anyway, as a design criteria,
are
probably best to elect, when beginning.
> It's my fear of power tools that keeps me honest I think. Every time I'm
> using one, this one thing always goes through my mind: "If it cuts
> through wood that fast, just think how fast it will go through meat." I
> try to tell my kids that every time they want to work on one of their
> projects. Hand tools of course, I don't let them near my power tools.
>
> Mike
> in Taku, Japan
I sliced up some frozen 'Jimmy Dean' Pork Sauage a while back, on the Band
Saw.
I hate to say it, but, it did end up seeming a little disgusting...all that
'pink' wet slush piling up on the saw Table insert where the Blade goes
through...the scent of Steel and wet flesh and thin Blood residu...it kinda
took the edge off of
what
had been such a happy Breakfast appetite.
But yes, I think it is good to imagine all the things which can or may go
amiss. Imagine them and reflect critically on them in slow-motion and
detail, in order to learn and decide habits and protocols which will ensure
happier options.
This need not discourage you from evolving good practices at all...or on th=
e
contrary, in order to understand good practices, one kinda sorta does well
to be able to have a wider over-view of what their absence invites, in orde=
r
to elect ways and means which will be safe and secure and
enjoyable...understand what the Machine or Device or condition can and will
do according to the deference shown it, and, to what one is literally askin=
g
it to do...same
as with Firearms, Motor Vehicles, Rotweilers, many things...
Focus on the 'positive', while being well informed on the less desireable
possibilities one steers around...so one may indeed steer around them.
Seems to me...
Love,
Phil
Lv
> http://karatsupots.com
> http://karatsupots.blogspot.com
>
> Kiln Building Workshop, Oct. 15 - 22
>
> http://karatsupots.com/workshop2010/workshop2010.html
> http://karatsupots-workshop.blogspot.com/
>
>
> (2010/05/23 22:51), Snail Scott wrote:
>> On May 22, 2010, at 8:29 PM, James Freeman wrote:
>>> A properly trained individual does not need a Saw-Stop. Nor does a
>>> person with common sense. An untrained individual should never be
>>> allowed to operate a potentially dangerous machine...
>>
>>
>> True, but...
>>
>> Untrained individuals become trained individuals
>> through the use of the equipment. Explanations
>> only go so far, then they have to actually learn by
>> doing. You can't get to 'experienced' without
>> going through 'novice'.
>>
>> Ironically, most of the really nasty injuries I have
>> seen have been to competent, experienced, and
>> sensible people, not beginners. Beginners tend to
>> be ultra-cautious (sometimes too much so), but
>> experts often become casual and overconfident.
>>
>> -Snail
>>
>> p.s. The most dangerous person in a college woodshop
>> is 20-year old guy whose girlfriend is taking the same
>> class.
>>
>> -Snail
>>
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11:26:00
Snail Scott on sun 23 may 10
On May 22, 2010, at 8:29 PM, James Freeman wrote:
> A properly trained individual does not need a Saw-Stop. Nor does a
> person with common sense. An untrained individual should never be
> allowed to operate a potentially dangerous machine...
True, but...
Untrained individuals become trained individuals
through the use of the equipment. Explanations
only go so far, then they have to actually learn by
doing. You can't get to 'experienced' without
going through 'novice'.
Ironically, most of the really nasty injuries I have
seen have been to competent, experienced, and
sensible people, not beginners. Beginners tend to
be ultra-cautious (sometimes too much so), but
experts often become casual and overconfident.
-Snail
p.s. The most dangerous person in a college woodshop
is 20-year old guy whose girlfriend is taking the same
class.
-Snail
James Freeman on sun 23 may 10
Vince...
Self-righteous and arrogant? Really?
I would suggest that the tablesaw is the barium carbonate of the
woodshop. It is big, and mean-looking, and noisy, and powerful, so it
must be the most dangerous, right?
The most dangerous piece of equipment is the one you don't know how to
use properly. Having said that, I would venture to guess that the
most dangerous piece of equipment in the typical woodshop is the
chop-saw (miter saw), with the common circular saw (skil-saw) close
behind. The only injury I know of in the college's woodshop was a
young lady who brought the mitersaw blade down onto her hand while
cutting wood for a canvas stretcher. It's such a simple,
friendly-looking machine, so easy to use, that they let everyone use
it, and showed it little respect. Not like the big, scary tablesaw
that nearly everyone avoided like the plague. Same with the circular
saw. Far more dangerous than a tablesaw, yet it seems so easy and
friendly. Why, then, are there no saw-stop mitersaws or circular
saws?
The most inherently dangerous piece of equipment in the woodshop has
to be the radial arm saw. I cringe every time I have to use the nasty
beast, yet no saw stop. The only reason I did not put it right at the
top of the list is that many shops lack this tool.
Bandsaws too are dangerous, because they look easy, simple, and
friendly, so lull us into a sense of security. Two of the three
serious woodshop injuries during my own school days were from the
bandsaw, one a complete amputation of a digit, the other a digit split
the long way to the first knuckle. No saw-stop band saws.
The lathe is a fantastically dangerous piece of equipment. So many
ways to seriously injure yourself, and innocent bystanders, as to be
almost ridiculous. The third serious injury during my woodshop days
was from a lathe. The instructor, of all people, was dragged into the
machine by her own clothing. It was only the quick action of a
student hitting one of the panic buttons which cut power to all of the
shop equipment that turned a probable strangulation into a mere
mauling. No saw-stop for the lathe.
I could go on, just as you can likely come up with details of tablesaw
injuries (though likely not any cases, other than kickback, that did
not involve stupidity or lack of training), but the point is made.
I would ask you folks a few rhetorical questions: Do you wear a crash
helmet when you drive your car? It's cheap, readily available, and
effective, and you have, I believe, a 1-in-1000 chance of being
involved in a car accident on any given day. Did you retrofit your
car with four or six point harnesses? Again, far more effective than
the simple three point harnesses that came standard with your car.
Did you install a roll cage? Extremely effective, and quite
inexpensive. Do you wear shred-able safety chaps when operating your
chainsaw? Cheap and readily available, yet I doubt one in several
thousand chainsaw operators wear them. Come to think of it, do you
even use a chainsaw? Can you even think of a more insanely dangerous
piece of equipment than that?
As to the quality of the saw-stop saw, simple economics would dictate
that it cannot possibly be equal to that of a comparably priced saw
that does not have to factor in an extra $500 part. That is not to
say that the quality is poor or insufficient, just that it cannot
possibly be equal.
As I said, if you can afford the $500 insurance, buy a saw-stop. If
you have kids, idiots, or untrained people using your equipment, buy a
saw-stop. If you want a saw-stop, buy a saw-stop. If you fear
litigation and feel that the saw-stop will prevent it (it won't), buy
a saw-stop. It is a great invention, and I never said otherwise. My
point was that, according to the article, it failed to make any
serious mark in the marketplace due to cost, and the relative
infrequency of cutting-related injuries. If you read my post
carefully, you will see that all I did was relate facts, and
information from the inventor (through the article). I said little if
anything that was personal judgment.
All the best.
...James
James Freeman
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice. I
should not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 12:33 AM, Vince Pitelka wrote=
=3D
:
> James -
> Oh goodness. =3DA0What an odd post. =3DA0The tablesaw is among the most d=
ange=3D
rous
> pieces of equipment in any woodshop,
=3DA0I appreciate that you give SawStop
> credit for being a really slick device. =3DA0Otherwise most of what you s=
ay=3D
is
> self-righteous and arrogant.
James Freeman on sun 23 may 10
On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 10:57 AM, James Freeman
wrote:
>
> As to the quality of the saw-stop saw, simple economics would dictate
> that it cannot possibly be equal to that of a comparably priced saw
> that does not have to factor in an extra $500 part. That is not to
> say that the quality is poor or insufficient, just that it cannot
> possibly be equal.
Replying to my own post! Now that is indeed odd. Nevertheless:
I just checked the prices and offerings from Saw-stop. They offer
three saws, a contractor saw, a cabinet saw, and a hybrid saw.
A contractor saw is the type most of us own and are familiar with.
They typically run from $500 to maybe $700. Saw-stop's contractor saw
is $2000.
A cabinet saw is a piece of industrial machinery. Powermatic is the
undisputed king of the hill, and last I checked it ran about $2500.
Delta (the old Rockwell Union) is a close second, and more popular, at
about $2000. Saw-stop's cabinet saw (called "industrial") is $4000.
A hybrid saw is one that looks like a cabinet saw and has a big motor,
yet has most of the lighter duty guts and operating mechanisms of a
contractor saw. It is a mid-grade machine. Last I looked, hybrid
machines (like Jet, Grizzly) were running about $1200-$1500.
Saw-stop's hybrid saw (called "professional") is $3000.
The reasons for the great price disparity are twofold. First, you
have an extra $500 part. Second, you have all of the costs associated
with both developing and manufacturing the product and with running a
company amortized over a far, far, lesser number of units sold.
Take care.
...James
James Freeman
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice. I
should not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
Vince Pitelka on sun 23 may 10
James Freeman wrote:
"Self-righteous and arrogant? Really?
I would suggest that the tablesaw is the barium carbonate of the
woodshop. It is big, and mean-looking, and noisy, and powerful, so it
must be the most dangerous, right?"
James -
You are so knowledgeable on so many things, and you know that I think highl=
y
of most of your writing, but sometimes you do come across as self-righteous
and arrogant. Your post tells people that if they operate a tablesaw safel=
y
there is no reason for the safety feature provided by the SawStop. That is
smug. Of all the machines in a well-equipped woodshop, the table saw is th=
e
machine where a very serious injury can happen most quickly from one small
slip or miscalculation. You cannot tell me that's not true, and you also
cannot tell me that even the best-trained and prepared wood worker never
ever makes a mistake. There is no gain in you implying that the SawStop
tablesaw is not necessary if the operator is well-trained. Knowing how to
operate a piece of equipment properly does not preclude screwing up. There
are plenty of others on this list who are well trained on woodworking
equipment and/or know a lot of professional fine woodworkers, and some of
them have acknowledged that even the best-trained woodworker can slip up. I
wager that most of those people would also acknowledge that the tablesaw is
much more dangerous than the chop saw or the common skillsaw.
Injuries from radial arm saws are far less frequent than from tablesaws, fo=
r
the simple reason that you are pulling the saw blade through the wood with
your hand off the side, rather than pushing the wood directly into the
blade. Bandsaws also do not have the capability to do nearly as much damage
as quickly as the tablesaw.
Exaggerating the danger of every single piece of equipment in the woodshop
does no good, and does you no credit. Most woodshop operators will
acknowledge that the tablesaw is the most dangerous piece of equipment in
the shop, and thus it makes perfect sense that it is the one getting such
attention with a practical safety device like the SawStop. SawStop is
currently working on designs for the bandsaw, the radial arm saw, and other
woodworking machines.
You wrote:
"As to the quality of the saw-stop saw, simple economics would dictate
that it cannot possibly be equal to that of a comparably priced saw
that does not have to factor in an extra $500 part. That is not to
say that the quality is poor or insufficient, just that it cannot
possibly be equal."
You are talking off the top of your head, with no real practical first-hand
experience with this machine. As I said in my previous message, the SawSto=
p
professional cabinet saw is priced comparably with the Powermatic cabinet
saw and functions just as well as the Powermatic cabinet saw. Those are
facts, James. Even if the SawStop did cost $500 more than an otherwise
comparable machine, that would be a very small price to pay for peace of
mind, considering the eventuality that even the most sensible, aware, and
highly-trained fine wood worker can occasionally screw up.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
James Freeman on sun 23 may 10
Just to reassure myself, I did a bit of checking amongst scholarly
studies of woodworking injuries. This is my last post on this topic.
A study of all school woodshop injuries in Utah over a four year
period revealed that 90% of such injuries are equipment related, and
of those, the tablesaw was implicated in only 15%. Band saws were
12.5%, while other saws were 15%. Amputation injuries accounted for
only 1.8% of all injuries requiring a doctor, and 2/3 of those cases
were the direct result of misuse of the equipment.
Another survey of amateur and professional woodworkers in New Mexico
was conducted to determine histories and rates of tool-specific
injuries. The highest tool-specific injury rates were associated with
use of jointer-planers (4.9 injuries per 1000 person-hours of use),
chisels and gouges (3.3 injuries), and drill presses (3.1 injuries).
Another study showed that 60% of all woodshop injuries occured to
amateurs and hobbyists (relatively inexperienced, and untrained), 42%
of those were caused by the tablesaw, and 15% of those tablesaw
injuries were amputations. The GREATEST causal factor of those
amputations was failure to use properly installed guards. Distraction
and fatigue also figured in, but to a much lesser degree.
The most fascinating statistic of all related to tablesaw injuries is
that of dominant handedness. Left-handers are FIVE TIMES more likely
than right-handers to suffer an amputation! This is because the saws
are designed for right-handers (blade tilt, fence placement, etc.). I
wonder how many woodworking instructors are aware of this fact, teach
it to their left-handed students, and teach them unique ways to avoid
such problems?
There is tons of this information available for anyone interested
(likely no one, as this is a clay and art forum, which is why I am
dropping this topic). Just go to google scholar and type in "causes
of woodworking injuries", or some such.
And now I am off to work on a yard project involving my miter saw,
circular saw, and nail gun (an incredibly dangerous tool! Three folks
I know have been injured by them, two quite seriously). For the
record, the only power tool I have ever injured myself with is a power
drill! Yes, a simple, ordinary power drill. It was the result of
temporary stupidity involving a shortcut, as I would venture most
"accidents" are. A great philosopher once said "There are no such
thing as accidents, just poor planning."
All the best.
...James
James Freeman
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice. I
should not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
Vince Pitelka on sun 23 may 10
James Freeman wrote:
"A cabinet saw is a piece of industrial machinery. Powermatic is the
undisputed king of the hill, and last I checked it ran about $2500.
Delta (the old Rockwell Union) is a close second, and more popular, at
about $2000. Saw-stop's cabinet saw (called "industrial") is $4000."
James -
This is going to sound like I am quibbling over details, but I'll risk that=
.
A quick Google search reveals that the Powermatic cabinet saw sells for
$2600, and the SawStop professional cabinet saw (the one that is most
closely equivalent to the Powermatic) sells for $2900. I'd call that
comparably-priced, and I'd sure pay the extra $300 for that measure of
safety.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Randall Moody on sun 23 may 10
On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 1:37 PM, James Freeman m
> wrote:
> Just to reassure myself, I did a bit of checking amongst scholarly
> studies of woodworking injuries. This is my last post on this topic.
>
> A study of all school woodshop injuries in Utah over a four year
> period revealed that 90% of such injuries are equipment related, and
> of those, the tablesaw was implicated in only 15%. Band saws were
> 12.5%, while other saws were 15%. Amputation injuries accounted for
> only 1.8% of all injuries requiring a doctor, and 2/3 of those cases
> were the direct result of misuse of the equipment.
>
> I seem to remember from my undergrad days the one that got people the mos=
t
were band saws. People keep the gate up so they can see the blade and end u=
p
watching the blade rather than their fingers. Once you see a guy remove his
finger you tend to pay more attention. I do agree that shop safety must be
taught. The Saw Stop simply prevents needless litigation.
--
Randall in Atlanta
http://wrandallmoody.com/home.html
James Freeman on sun 23 may 10
Vince...
With all due respect, the Sawstop "professional" is not even REMOTELY
the equivalent of the powermatic. The saw stop "industrial" is, and
it is $4000. The $3000 sawstop "professional" is a mid-grade "hybrid"
saw, and is comparable to other hybrids such as Jet or Grizzly, which
cost about half as much.
Yes, the saw stop is a great invention. It is also a phenomenally
expensive one. In cabinet saws, you are talking about an extra $1400,
a 53% premium. In hybrid saws (like the one you own), the premium is
$1400 - $1700, or 93% - 141% more. In contractor saws, the premium is
$1200 - $1500, or 150% - 300% more.
You folks downgraded saws in order to afford the saw stop feature.
That is likely a wonderful decision for your situation, especially
considering that you say the hybrid saw performs well enough for your
needs. None of that changes the economics, however.
As to the relative dangers of various machines, I believe the
statistical evidence I provided in another post proves that the fear
of tablesaws is largely unfounded. Like much "common knowledge", it
sounds right, but just plain isn't. EVERYTHING in a woodshop is
inherently dangerous. The tablesaw is probably amongst the most so,
but is not the great bugaboo it may appear.
...James
James Freeman
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice. I
should not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Vince Pitelka wrote:
> James Freeman wrote:
> "A cabinet saw is a piece of industrial machinery. =3DA0Powermatic is the
> undisputed king of the hill, and last I checked it ran about $2500.
> Delta (the old Rockwell Union) is a close second, and more popular, at
> about $2000. =3DA0Saw-stop's cabinet saw (called "industrial") is $4000."
>
> James -
> This is going to sound like I am quibbling over details, but I'll risk th=
=3D
at.
> A quick Google search reveals that the Powermatic cabinet saw sells for
> $2600, and the SawStop professional cabinet saw (the one that is most
> closely equivalent to the Powermatic) sells for $2900. =3DA0I'd call that
> comparably-priced, and I'd sure pay the extra $300 for that measure of
> safety.
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Craft
> Tennessee Tech University
> vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
>
Eva Gallagher on sun 23 may 10
My husband as a teenager cut off the top of his thumb with a handsaw sawing
off a board - much to his embassement. Today he proudly displays his short
thumb as evidence that accidents can happen no matter how careful or how
safe a tool is.
Eva Gallagher
http://newfoundoutpotter.blogspot.com/.
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Freeman"
To:
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: SAWSTOP IN TIMEWARP
Vince...
With all due respect, the Sawstop "professional" is not even REMOTELY
the equivalent of the powermatic. The saw stop "industrial" is, and
it is $4000. The $3000 sawstop "professional" is a mid-grade "hybrid"
saw, and is comparable to other hybrids such as Jet or Grizzly, which
cost about half as much.
Yes, the saw stop is a great invention. It is also a phenomenally
expensive one. In cabinet saws, you are talking about an extra $1400,
a 53% premium. In hybrid saws (like the one you own), the premium is
$1400 - $1700, or 93% - 141% more. In contractor saws, the premium is
$1200 - $1500, or 150% - 300% more.
You folks downgraded saws in order to afford the saw stop feature.
That is likely a wonderful decision for your situation, especially
considering that you say the hybrid saw performs well enough for your
needs. None of that changes the economics, however.
As to the relative dangers of various machines, I believe the
statistical evidence I provided in another post proves that the fear
of tablesaws is largely unfounded. Like much "common knowledge", it
sounds right, but just plain isn't. EVERYTHING in a woodshop is
inherently dangerous. The tablesaw is probably amongst the most so,
but is not the great bugaboo it may appear.
...James
James Freeman
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice. I
should not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Vince Pitelka wrote:
> James Freeman wrote:
> "A cabinet saw is a piece of industrial machinery. Powermatic is the
> undisputed king of the hill, and last I checked it ran about $2500.
> Delta (the old Rockwell Union) is a close second, and more popular, at
> about $2000. Saw-stop's cabinet saw (called "industrial") is $4000."
>
> James -
> This is going to sound like I am quibbling over details, but I'll risk
> that.
> A quick Google search reveals that the Powermatic cabinet saw sells for
> $2600, and the SawStop professional cabinet saw (the one that is most
> closely equivalent to the Powermatic) sells for $2900. I'd call that
> comparably-priced, and I'd sure pay the extra $300 for that measure of
> safety.
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Craft
> Tennessee Tech University
> vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
>
phil on sun 23 may 10
Hi Vince, James, all...
Somehow our society ended up with a legacy of entrained and emotionalized
collusion regarding how the idea of
'dangerous' should be attributed to things, or conditions, or catagories of
materials, botanicals, geometric configurations of particular Molecules,
etc, and not to the quality of intelligence, attention, interest, judgement=
,
understanding, and
decision,
which people acting on or in or with those things or conditions, are
actually resonsible for or to.
We are becoming, or have become, a Society characterized by a 'victim
mentality', which is become an enormous 'Market' to pander to, and for
selling more and more gratuity and appeasement to incompetence and
emotionalized confusion, instead of valueing and cultivating a mentality of
cogent response-ability and insight and understandings oif vastly more
elegant and wholeome economy and directness.
I see nothing dangerous about Table Saws.
I see a lot which is inherently dangerous about conflicts and deficiencies
in people's thinking, in
people's qualities of attention and discernment and understanding...in the
reliable actions and decisions of impatient, unqualified or confused people=
,
operating in misunderstanding or indifference, or moments of
incompetence or amentia sometimes, with erstwhile qualified and cogent
people.
I see no justification for ever letting neophyte know-nothings or inept or
iffy-habit anyones operate a Table saw where they will hurt themselves.
I see no reason worth acting on for every letting anyone operate anyone
else's Table Saw 'period' - let them operate their OWN Table Saw, and be
done with it.
Why do it?
In institutional or 'school' settings, is it because one is selling little
gratuitous pre-packaged patronizations to them, as the actual 'product' or
service, for instant gratifications, in the name of 'Woodshop'? And without
those Totems to bring home, and the lack of patience ( lack of emotional
maturity of the person being patronized for their lack ) where would the
tuition be?
Why not have those people begin, by learning the fundimentals of the Hand
Saw? Coping Saw? Tennon Saw, Jig Saw, etc?
Let them undertake their 'Spice Rack' or Book Case or Cutting Board or
whatever, with that.
Are we afraid they would get sullen? Pouty? Bored?
With some right introduction, and demonstration, a person new to Wood
Working Tools, should manage to make some patient headway, and not cut a Le=
g
or Arm or Finger off using Hand Saws...or better yet, learning to use and
care for them rightly.
Are these abandonded because everyone wants fast and emotionally appeasing
appearances of ( basically worthless ) result to satisfy the know-nothing
student's entrained 'need' for instant gratification?
Maybe this is far nearer what ought to be examined here in all this.
I never let anyone, ever, operate ANY of my Machines, or drive any of my
Vehicles ( they can use my Toothbrush though, or borrow some Socks, or mayb=
e
even borrow my girlfriend if they want, you know, like the old Esquimaux
custom, but any sort of Machinery or Mechanical Devices or important Tools,
"No", ) even if they claim or appear to be, a seasoned professional, among
which catagory are endless boobs, idiots, and oafs and bullies, who will
hurt the Machine or other, mistranslate features what from they are used to
to where none or different are present, etc, hurting themselves, or the
Machine within seconds.
Table Saws do exactly what we are asking them to do...nothing more, nothing
less...even if they are on poor condition or damaged, where, we are asking =
a
poor condition or damaged Machine to operate in those conditions and
probable consequences.
The real question in any instance, is 'What are we asking the Saw to do?'
If someone asks the Saw to abrade, lacerate or amuptate parts of their Hand=
,
and the Saw dutifully does just that, whyever should we blame the Saw or
claim it is the Saw which is 'dangerous'?
Why not instead, find an interest to promote conditions of understanding
about any particular Mechanical System - dash - Machine or other device,
Tool, Machanism? And, how in their fidelity, they will indeed do what we ar=
e
asking them to do quite reliably? For people to then get the drift on how
seeing things THIS way, is the only real 'safety' they will ever have, find=
,
or want?
Love...
Phil
Lv
Robert Harris on sun 23 may 10
I couldn't agree with you more. While I was in high school (more properly
'college' in the United Kingdom) I was lucky enough to attend woodworking
sessions a few times a week for a few years.
There were band saws to be used by well trained students, but that was it.
My first project was a box (as moany are). This box was manufactured
entirely using hand saws (with and without mitre boxes), planes, hand
drills, screwdrivers, glue and French polish. This box included inlaid ebon=
y
designs and some nice veneering (even if I do say so myself).
It was not until I had done a few other projects that I was allowed near a
lathe (despite having been throwing since I was 10), but once we were deeme=
d
responsible and adult, there was no necessity for endless supervision or
safety training etc.
It was a wonderful place to work. I was extremely lucky that the responsibl=
e
adult was a trained cabinet-maker who had retired from the restoration at
the Victoria and Albert museum.
I wish we could go back to a more sensible time.
Robert
On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 5:22 PM, phil wrote:
> Hi Vince, James, all...
>
>
>
>
> Somehow our society ended up with a legacy of entrained and emotionalized
> collusion regarding how the idea of
> 'dangerous' should be attributed to things, or conditions, or catagories =
of
> materials, botanicals, geometric configurations of particular Molecules,
> etc, and not to the quality of intelligence, attention, interest,
> judgement,
> understanding, and
> decision,
> which people acting on or in or with those things or conditions, are
> actually resonsible for or to.
>
> We are becoming, or have become, a Society characterized by a 'victim
> mentality', which is become an enormous 'Market' to pander to, and for
> selling more and more gratuity and appeasement to incompetence and
> emotionalized confusion, instead of valueing and cultivating a mentality =
of
> cogent response-ability and insight and understandings oif vastly more
> elegant and wholeome economy and directness.
>
>
> I see nothing dangerous about Table Saws.
>
>
> I see a lot which is inherently dangerous about conflicts and deficiencie=
s
> in people's thinking, in
> people's qualities of attention and discernment and understanding...in th=
e
> reliable actions and decisions of impatient, unqualified or confused
> people,
> operating in misunderstanding or indifference, or moments of
> incompetence or amentia sometimes, with erstwhile qualified and cogent
> people.
>
>
> I see no justification for ever letting neophyte know-nothings or inept o=
r
> iffy-habit anyones operate a Table saw where they will hurt themselves.
>
> I see no reason worth acting on for every letting anyone operate anyone
> else's Table Saw 'period' - let them operate their OWN Table Saw, and be
> done with it.
>
>
> Why do it?
>
> In institutional or 'school' settings, is it because one is selling littl=
e
> gratuitous pre-packaged patronizations to them, as the actual 'product' o=
r
> service, for instant gratifications, in the name of 'Woodshop'? And witho=
ut
> those Totems to bring home, and the lack of patience ( lack of emotional
> maturity of the person being patronized for their lack ) where would the
> tuition be?
>
>
> Why not have those people begin, by learning the fundimentals of the Hand
> Saw? Coping Saw? Tennon Saw, Jig Saw, etc?
>
> Let them undertake their 'Spice Rack' or Book Case or Cutting Board or
> whatever, with that.
>
> Are we afraid they would get sullen? Pouty? Bored?
>
>
> With some right introduction, and demonstration, a person new to Wood
> Working Tools, should manage to make some patient headway, and not cut a
> Leg
> or Arm or Finger off using Hand Saws...or better yet, learning to use an=
d
> care for them rightly.
>
>
> Are these abandonded because everyone wants fast and emotionally appeasin=
g
> appearances of ( basically worthless ) result to satisfy the know-nothing
> student's entrained 'need' for instant gratification?
>
>
> Maybe this is far nearer what ought to be examined here in all this.
>
>
> I never let anyone, ever, operate ANY of my Machines, or drive any of my
> Vehicles ( they can use my Toothbrush though, or borrow some Socks, or
> maybe
> even borrow my girlfriend if they want, you know, like the old Esquimaux
> custom, but any sort of Machinery or Mechanical Devices or important Tool=
s,
> "No", ) even if they claim or appear to be, a seasoned professional, amon=
g
> which catagory are endless boobs, idiots, and oafs and bullies, who will
> hurt the Machine or other, mistranslate features what from they are used =
to
> to where none or different are present, etc, hurting themselves, or the
> Machine within seconds.
>
>
> Table Saws do exactly what we are asking them to do...nothing more, nothi=
ng
> less...even if they are on poor condition or damaged, where, we are askin=
g
> a
> poor condition or damaged Machine to operate in those conditions and
> probable consequences.
>
>
>
> The real question in any instance, is 'What are we asking the Saw to do?'
>
>
> If someone asks the Saw to abrade, lacerate or amuptate parts of their
> Hand,
> and the Saw dutifully does just that, whyever should we blame the Saw or
> claim it is the Saw which is 'dangerous'?
>
>
> Why not instead, find an interest to promote conditions of understanding
> about any particular Mechanical System - dash - Machine or other device,
> Tool, Machanism? And, how in their fidelity, they will indeed do what we
> are
> asking them to do quite reliably? For people to then get the drift on how
> seeing things THIS way, is the only real 'safety' they will ever have,
> find,
> or want?
>
>
>
>
>
> Love...
>
>
> Phil
> Lv
>
James Freeman on sun 23 may 10
On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 8:31 PM, Mike wrote:
> I haven't heard this mentioned yet, but first thing I made when I bought
> a tablesaw was as set of push sticks, so that when I was working close
> to the blade, my fingers weren't there. Never come close to chopping off
> any fingers that way. Have had trouble with kickback on occasion, with
> or without the push sticks.
>
>
> It's my fear of power tools that keeps me honest I think. Every time I'm
> using one, this one thing always goes through my mind: "If it cuts
> through wood that fast, just think how fast it will go through meat." I
> try to tell my kids that every time they want to work on one of their
> projects. Hand tools of course, I don't let them near my power tools.
>
Mike, et alii...
The prime safety feature when using a tablesaw is a properly operating
blade guard. According to the research I cited earlier, the majority
of amputations were due to a missing, bypassed, or inoperative blade
guard. Well, actually, they were due to sticking one's fingers into
the path of the blade, but the missing or inoperative blade guard
allowed easier contact.
After the blade guard, push sticks are the second necessity for safe
sawing. I use two varieties, the standard sort for any operation that
would otherwise require my fingers to be anywhere within range of the
blade, and a very tall, 1/4" wide push stick shaped much like a
western style hand saw for use when ripping very narrow strips. The
thin profile allows me to use the push stick between the blade and the
fence when they are very close together in order to keep the stock
going in straight and avoiding a kickback. I use push sticks
religiously.
After push sticks, I find feather boards to be extremely helpful in
terms of safety. These can be purchased, but are very simple to make.
My own are homemade. They can be clamped to the tabletop to keep the
stock snug against the fence, or clamped to the fence itself in order
to keep the stock tight to the table. I often use them in both
orientations.
Next in line is a set of rubber-surfaced push blocks. When running
rabbets or dadoes, it is impossible to use the standard sort of blade
guard which is attached via a riving knife, so it must be removed.
This is not as unsafe as it might sound, as the blade is completely
covered by the board being dadoed or rabbeted. Even still, I do not
place my hands on the board as it passes over the blade to apply the
required downward force. By employing rubber-surfaced push blocks,
one can keep pressure on the board while keeping one's hands well away
from any potential mishap. I use the ones that came with my
jointer/planer, but they too can be purchased or easily made.
An often overlooked fact is that most tablesaw mishaps occur when
cutting very small pieces of wood. This is NOT what a tablesaw is
made for, and it is VERY dangerous. If you must do so (and I
frequently do), you need to clamp or glue the small piece to a larger
piece of wood, or clamp it to a jig which is then pushed through the
saw. Do NOT hold onto a small piece of wood and try to cut it, or
even drill it, with a power tool. The odds will NOT be in your favor.
Heck, you'll probably even injure yourself if you try to power sand
it. Even if you try to push a tiny piece of wood through the saw with
push sticks, it will likely cock slightly, be grabbed by the blade,
and become a projectile. Bad mojo.
Kickback is the most serious threat to life and health when using a
tablesaw. The single most important thing every sawyer must learn is
to NEVER stand behind the board as it is being fed into the blade. If
it kicks back (for any of several reasons that I shall not recount
here), it is quite capable of piercing you through and through. This
is NOT an exaggeration. For you trivia buffs, this is how Johnny
Cash's brother died, a tragedy that tore the family apart. Aside from
not standing behind the board, the next most important step is to
discard the cheap fence that likely came with your saw and replace it
with a high quality version ($300 or so), adjusting it properly. If a
$300 fence (Beisemeyer, or one of the better quality copies) is beyond
your budget, at least make sure to properly adjust your cheapo fence,
and to check it often, as it will not stay in adjustment for long.
Also, make sure your saw has a riving knife attached.
Whenever I talk about woodshop safety, I begin my presentation with a
corny but effective introduction. I ask all present to count their
fingers. After a brief pause, I state that "Your goal is to leave
with the same number you came in with, and every machine in this room
is capable of changing that equation". The machines have no respect
for you. It is incumbent upon you to respect them. Mike, your
observation is quite apt; if they cut hardwood with such ease, they
will have no problem at all with bone and meat. An old world
cabinetmaker I met back in '82 or so, when I was first getting into
woodworking in a serious way, told me that you can tell a woodworker
who respects his tools, because he still has all of his fingers.
A big, scary looking tool like a tablesaw tends to command respect
even if no one tells you to respect it, at least in beginners, so we
tend to accord it a measure of care and thought. The problem, other
than that of folks who simply lack common sense, is that with use and
familiarity, we sometimes drop our guard. This is what must be
avoided. On the other hand, small, friendly tools tend not to scare
us, and we tend to show them much less respect. This is what makes
them so much more dangerous than big, scary tools. We know that the
tablesaw can hurt us, but we tend not to have that same level of fear
and respect for it's lesser brethren.
Just some food for thought.
...James
James Freeman
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice. I
should not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
Mike on mon 24 may 10
I haven't heard this mentioned yet, but first thing I made when I bought
a tablesaw was as set of push sticks, so that when I was working close
to the blade, my fingers weren't there. Never come close to chopping off
any fingers that way. Have had trouble with kickback on occasion, with
or without the push sticks.
I've cut myself far more often with hand tools than power tools. Mostly
minor stuff. One time I kept ending up with these really fine cuts
across my fingers, almost invisible but stung. Spent a good part of the
previous day honing my bench chisels and back lapped them on the strop
quite a bit. The back corner edges of the chisels had become quite sharp
and were slicing me when I held them close to the tip.
It's my fear of power tools that keeps me honest I think. Every time I'm
using one, this one thing always goes through my mind: "If it cuts
through wood that fast, just think how fast it will go through meat." I
try to tell my kids that every time they want to work on one of their
projects. Hand tools of course, I don't let them near my power tools.
Mike
in Taku, Japan
http://karatsupots.com
http://karatsupots.blogspot.com
Kiln Building Workshop, Oct. 15 - 22
http://karatsupots.com/workshop2010/workshop2010.html
http://karatsupots-workshop.blogspot.com/
(2010/05/23 22:51), Snail Scott wrote:
> On May 22, 2010, at 8:29 PM, James Freeman wrote:
>> A properly trained individual does not need a Saw-Stop. Nor does a
>> person with common sense. An untrained individual should never be
>> allowed to operate a potentially dangerous machine...
>
>
> True, but...
>
> Untrained individuals become trained individuals
> through the use of the equipment. Explanations
> only go so far, then they have to actually learn by
> doing. You can't get to 'experienced' without
> going through 'novice'.
>
> Ironically, most of the really nasty injuries I have
> seen have been to competent, experienced, and
> sensible people, not beginners. Beginners tend to
> be ultra-cautious (sometimes too much so), but
> experts often become casual and overconfident.
>
> -Snail
>
> p.s. The most dangerous person in a college woodshop
> is 20-year old guy whose girlfriend is taking the same
> class.
>
> -Snail
>
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