Ron Roy on tue 13 jul 10
The argument that if you pay attention to the basics of making pottery =3D2=
0
that is useful - you will lose your soul - is often used.
There is absolutely no connection between making a pot that does not =3D20
leak and how you want it to look - especially in this time and place =3D20
when so much material and understanding is available to potters.
There has never been a time and place in the history of ceramics when =3D20
solving the basic problems of making functional ware has been easier.
RR
Quoting Lee Love :
> On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 7:48 PM, Ron Roy wrote:
>
>>> In each group there are both professionals and amateurs, creative and
>> traditional potters - it's time to try and convince those who don't
>> care enough to make truly useful work that it's in the best interest
>> of us all to try and do the job properly.
>
> It is equally important not to make ugly pots. What I have
> noticed about critics that have no aesthetic sense, is that they
> always fall back on technical/quantitative measure, rather than ones
> based upon beauty or qualitative measure. If you don't have an eye,
> you can only base judgment on that which can be physically measured.
> The most obvious measurements are light/heavy, thick/thin,
> tall/short, regular vs. irregular.
>
> Almost anybody can master the quantitative aspects. They are
> elementary. But especially in our day and time, where mass
> production and machines can beat humans easily in the realm of
> quantitaty, the aesthetic aspects are ever more important, to justify
> what we do. Humans have to do what machines can't, or they become
> redundant.
> --
> Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
> http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
>
> =3DE2=3D80=3D9CObserve the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim =
them. F=3D
eel
> the artistry moving through and be silent.=3DE2=3D80=3D9D --Rumi
>
Ron Roy on tue 13 jul 10
Hi Ellary,
Hard to stop crazing in crystalline glazes - but if the clay was
properly vitrified they would not leak - you could solve the problem
that way.
If you are interested I can show you how.
I've changed the subject line by the way.
RR
Quoting Ellary Blair :
> Hi Ron, I agree with you all the way. It is to bad that potters don't
> take more pride in what they make. I do crystalline pottery and it is
> a difficult type of ceramics. I made a group of mugs and put them in
> our local art's centers gift shop. I got a phone call that one had
> sold and the buyer brought it back because it leaked. I checked all of
> the mugs after I removed them from the gift shop. If the crystal glaze
> had any crazing it leaked. I decided that I was not going to do
> anymore functional pieces that could hold water. I do only decorative
> pottery and use a good clear on the inside that doesn't allow leaks. I
> wish people would be more conscious of the kind of work they put out
> for sale. I have seen so many pots that have apparent glaze faults,
> or cracks usually on the bottom. I feel if you put out work like that
> you will eventually lose your costumer base. The gallery I have my
> work in is in Lawrence Ks, my hometown, every year they have a sidewalk
> sale where you can sell your pieces that are seconds. Mark them down
> according to the flaws, you still get to sell the pot but not take the
> chance of ruining your reputation. Obvious flawed work put out for
> sale at the regular price as one that is perfect is the sign of a lazy
> potter or one that doesn't take pride in their work.
>
> Ellie Blair
> Blair Pottery
> Lawrence, Kansas 66047
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ellie Blair
> Blair Pottery
> Lawrence, Kansas 66047
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox=
.
> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=3DPID28326::T:WLMTAGL=
:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3
Chris Campbell on tue 13 jul 10
Standards?
I agree with you in theory, but I defy you
to put even six potters around a table and
have them agree on what they should be.
Then, if they could persuade six people to buy
their pot simply because it met these standards,
I would gladly buy them all dinner.
WalMart is not our competition. That is such a
false trail to follow.
Our competition is the high-end niche stores,
home and kitchen stores, and better department
stores who sell wares to people who are unsure of
their own ability to select good quality pottery.
They let the pros do the heavy lifting and end up
buying over priced 'crafted' goods made in China.
I have a healthy respect for these pottery buyers.
I know they want to buy something made by a
human.
You and I can do guerilla marketing. Not just in our
studios, but everywhere we go. We can educate
these people every time we see them ... eventually
they will know their stuff and take a chance on their
own taste.
Also ... if you are a seasoned professional potter
making excellent work and the newbies are treading
in your pricing territory ...
shame on you, not them.
You should have raised your prices a long time ago.
Pottery needs a healthy price range.
Chris Campbell - in North Carolina
Chris Campbell Pottery LLC
Designs in Colored Porcelain
www.ccpottery.com
SUMMER WORKSHOP
August 15-21, 2010
Touchstone Center for Crafts
1049 Wharton Furnace Road
Farmington PA 15437
1.800.721.0177
http://www.touchstonecrafts.com
Lee Love on tue 13 jul 10
On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 11:56 AM, Ron Roy wrote:
> work in is in Lawrence Ks, my hometown, every year they have a sidewalk
> sale where you can sell your pieces that are seconds. =3DA0Mark them down
> according to the flaws, you still get to sell the pot but not take the
> chance of ruining your reputation.
Ellary,
I don't sell seconds. I use sound seconds and give them to
friends and family members.
Where tea ceremony bowls are concerned, I only sell about
one in ten, to maybe one in five on a good day. They are
functionally sound, but boxed tea bowls have special criteria. What
I am thinking about doing with the good bowls that don't make the tea
bowl grade (I sometimes call them "nut bowls"), is have an empty bowls
fundraising event for a local food shelf and offer folks either the
standard meal of soup in the bowl and homemade bread, or whisked
powdered tea and a tea treat.
During my apprenticeship, I hammered tens of thousands of
dollars of pots from the noborigama that were usually sound by most
standards, but did not make the grade from my teacher's perspective,
as being work acceptable to a National Living Treasure. The first
years I was there, we would simply throw them in the trash hole. But
someone was purposely not breaking some of the better pots, and I
think my teacher found out about them showing up in galleries. So
during my last year of my apprenticeship, we had to take a hammer to
rejected pots in the presences of another apprentice and put them in a
blue bin to be taken to the trash center to be buried. I think my
teacher saw how some of the flawed pots that came out of Hamada's kiln
(his teacher) and he overcompensated, not wanting the ghost of flawed
pots haunting after he was gone.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
Ann Brink on wed 14 jul 10
I think that most purchasers of pottery won't care that much about ou=3D
r=3D20
"creds"....they will eyeball a piece, handle it, then buy or not buy=3D
=3D20
according to how much they like it, plain & simple. Maybe this has b=3D
een=3D20
said already-I've been too busy to read many posts.
Ann Brink in Lompoc Ca
(mostly about pottery)
----- Original Message -----=3D20
=3D46rom: "Jeff Jeff"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: Standards (was Pricing. Can we talk?)
Not at all Lee. Certification starts somewhere. If Ron thinks it woul=3D
d help
then make a go of it and BECOME the person who certifies.
It would be interesting to see the effect it would have in the marke=3D
tplace.
Perhaps, after potters explain to their customers what the seal means=3D
,
those potters will see better sales and other potters will want to ge=3D
t a=3D20
"seal"
as well. Maybe this will start the process of creating standards in =3D
the
community?
In addition, a process of standards might counter the "I went to sch=3D
ool
here so my pots must be good." mentality and allow people with variou=3D
s
backgrounds to participate. If your pots are good then you'll have a
certificate/seal to prove it.
Jeff Longtin
Minneapolis
In a message dated 7/14/2010 10:46:05 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
cwiddershins@gmail.com writes:
You are joking?
On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 10:10 PM, Jeff Jeff wro=3D
te:
> Hey Ron,
>
> In the US we have something called the Underwriters Laboratory. Pe=3D
rhaps
we
> could develop a system of certification thru the Potter's Council.=3D
("PC
> Approved" or something?) And then issue a plaque that the person c=3D
an
show at
> their place of business or booth?
>
> Perhaps you can write up a series of requirements and then charge =3D
a small
> fee for anyone who seeks certification? Upon successful completion=3D
you
then
> give them the certificate?
>
> As well we could introduce the idea to fair promoters and encourag=3D
e them
to
> ADVERTISE the fact that they have "certified" potters in their sh=3D
ow.
>
> a few ideas anyway...
>
> Jeff Longtin
> Minneapolis
>
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 7/13/2010 1:19:35 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> ronroy@CA.INTER.NET writes:
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> Perhaps a first step would be to find out how many here on ClayAr=3D
t
> feel the same way - sort of a core group.
>
> Perhaps an article for a magazine on how those of us - who think =3D
this
> is important - build quality into our pots.
>
> Do any potters advertise their craftsmanship in their show booths=3D
? If
> so what do they say?
>
> I know you can't impose rules on potters but that is no reason wh=3D
y
> persuasion should not be used - especially when it is in the best
> interest of potters to do it right.
>
> I've changes the subject line to standards by the way.
>
> RR
>
> Quoting Dana & Chris Trabka :
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dana & Chris Trabka"
>> To:
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 11:03 AM
>> Subject: Re: Pricing. Can we talk?
>>
>>
>>> Ron,
>>>
>>> I too believe that it necessary to be able to create a pot that
displays
>>> sound craftsmanship.
>>> A pot suited to its purpose. The apprentice/master was good mod=3D
el for
>>> learning the craft of making good sound pots.
>>>
>>> Today it is the community center, the small studios that teach =3D
others
> how
>>> to make pots and the schools that are
>>> the main venue for learning the craft of pottery. However, they=3D
are
not
>>> all the same. Some you learn how to
>>> hand build only, some you might get to know about glaze formulat=3D
ion and
>>> clay-glaze fit.
>>>
>>> It would be nice to have a way where the public would know what=3D
level
> of
>>> expertise does the venue offer.
>>> Yes there are those places were it is obvious (decorate bisqued=3D
pieces
>>> with supplied glazes). But, how
>>> does Mary Q Public find out more about a place without know the
> questions
>>> to ask?
>>>
>>> This is an opportunity for Clay Art/Ceramics Monthly/The Potter=3D
s
>>> Council/Schools ... to step in and provide a service
>>> to the community and the public.
>>>
>>> Chris
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Ron Roy"
>>>
>>>> If we were to support the idea of good craftsmanship here on c=3D
layart
-
>>>> as a group - so that others would understand how important it =3D
is -
>>>> that would help.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I have brought the subject up many times on this list and have=3D
waited
>>>> - mostly in vain - for others to second the motion.
>>>
>>
>
--
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DE2=3D80=3D9CObserve the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim t=
=3D
hem. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3DE2=3D80=3D9D --Rumi
---------------------------------------------------------------------=3D
-----------
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.830 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3004 - Release Date: 07/13=3D
/10=3D20
23:36:00
Jeff Jeff on wed 14 jul 10
Randall,
I understand your concern but I think this group would be more concerned
with technical excellence. The jury, for any given show, would still judge
the artistic merits of the work whereas the Potters Council certification
would only apply to the physical properties of the work itself.
Perhaps the Potter's Council, or some other group, could convene a group of
individuals, with a variety of experiences among them, to draw up a list
of "standards" as they relate to the physical properties of well made pots=
.
Yes, some will not like the standards, but if the deciding group is divers=
e
enough perhaps a consensus can be achieved such that MOST potters find
them acceptable?
take care
Jeff
In a message dated 7/14/2010 8:40:05 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
randall.moody@gmail.com writes:
On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 7:07 PM, Jeff Jeff <_plasterjfl@aol.com_
(mailto:plasterjfl@aol.com) > wrote:
Not at all Lee. Certification starts somewhere. If Ron thinks it would
help
then make a go of it and BECOME the person who certifies.
It would be interesting to see the effect it would have in the
marketplace.
Perhaps, after potters explain to their customers what the seal means,
those potters will see better sales and other potters will want to get a
"seal"
as well. Maybe this will start the process of creating standards in the
community?
In addition, a process of standards might counter the "I went to school
here so my pots must be good." mentality and allow people with various
backgrounds to participate. If your pots are good then you'll have a
certificate/seal to prove it.
Jeff Longtin
Minneapolis
Who certifies the certifiers? All people should be able to participate in
art. If your pots are good then you don't need somebody certifying them.
They will stand or fall on their own.
--
Randall in Atlanta
_http://wrandallmoody.com/home.html_ (http://wrandallmoody.com/home.html)
May Luk on wed 14 jul 10
Dear Ron;
The certificate sounds like a good idea for potters and getting into
serious shows. However, that is very one sided. You neglected human
psychology when they are out shopping.
Often times when I do an open studio, somebody would pick up something
from the back shelf, the stuff that was there because it was a sample
- an experiment gone wrong and not meant for sale. The more I
explained to the customer is not for sale, it's no good because of
this or that, the more they want it. They think I'm being an artist! A
lot of people like flaws and they think it's part of the charm and
it's part of the craft. How do I tell them "oh, no, you don't know
what you are talking about, you are not educated, Put. it. back?"
I have bought seconds and I have loved it a lot and used it for many
years because "I like it" This was also before I was doing ceramics. I
didn't have the "trained eyes", but one cannot discount the enjoyment
that I had with those pieces.
People like and buy 'stuff' for a lot of reasons. Well made is just one of =
=3D
it.
May
Brooklyn NY
On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 8:09 PM, Ron Roy wrote:
> Hi Jeff,
>
> I think it would be a good selling point but how would you know the
> latest pots would pass the test. Unless you have some way of keeping
> everyone honest it would not mean much.
>
> I was a board member for the Ontario Clay and Glass Association for
> about a dozen years - the subject came up a number of times - mainly
> about introducing some tough requirements for getting into shows. Lots
> of resentment surfaced and very hard to get a consensus - I would
> think it would be much tougher in the US.
>
> I do think we should keep talking about it - there are many who do
> have standards and try hard to do a good job - even though it costs
> them in time and effort.
>
> In the end it will not cost more to do the job right - less returned
> pots and better customer relations.
>
> RR
>
>
> Quoting Jeff Jeff :
>
>> Hey Ron,
>>
>> In the US we have something called the Underwriters Laboratory. Perhaps =
=3D
we
>> could develop a system of certification thru the Potter's Council. ("PC
>> Approved" or something?) And then issue a plaque that the person can sho=
=3D
w
>> at
>> their place of business or booth?
>>
>> Perhaps you can write up a series of requirements and then charge a smal=
=3D
l
>> fee for anyone who seeks certification? Upon successful completion you
>> then
>> give =3DA0them the certificate?
>>
>> As well we could introduce the idea to fair promoters and encourage them
>> to
>> =3DA0ADVERTISE the fact that they have "certified" potters in their show=
.
>>
>> a few ideas anyway...
>>
>> Jeff Longtin
>> Minneapolis
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 7/13/2010 1:19:35 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
>> ronroy@CA.INTER.NET writes:
>>
>> Hi =3DA0Chris,
>>
>> Perhaps a first step would be to find out how many here on =3DA0ClayArt
>> feel the same way - sort of a core group.
>>
>> Perhaps an article =3DA0for a magazine on how those of us - who think th=
is
>> is important - build =3DA0quality into our pots.
>>
>> Do any potters advertise their craftsmanship in =3DA0their show booths? =
If
>> so what do they say?
>>
>> I know you can't impose =3DA0rules on potters but that is no reason why
>> persuasion should not be used - =3DA0especially when it is in the best
>> interest of potters to do it =3DA0right.
>>
>> I've changes the subject line to standards by the =3DA0way.
>>
>> RR
>>
>> Quoting Dana & Chris Trabka =3DA0:
>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> =3DA0From: "Dana & Chris Trabka"
>>> To: =3DA0
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 11:03 =3DA0AM
>>> Subject: Re: Pricing. Can we talk?
>>>
>>>
>>>> =3DA0Ron,
>>>>
>>>> I too believe that it necessary to be able to =3DA0create a pot that
>>>> displays
>>>> sound craftsmanship.
>>>> A pot =3DA0suited to its purpose. The apprentice/master was good model=
f=3D
or
>>>> =3DA0learning the craft of making good sound pots.
>>>>
>>>> Today it =3DA0is the community center, the small studios that teach ot=
he=3D
rs
>>
>> how
>>>>
>>>> =3DA0to make pots and the schools that are
>>>> the main venue for learning =3DA0the craft of pottery. However, they a=
re=3D
not
>>>> all the same. Some you =3DA0learn how to
>>>> hand build only, some you might get to know about =3DA0glaze formulati=
on=3D
and
>>>> clay-glaze fit.
>>>>
>>>> It =3DA0would be nice to have a way where the public would know what l=
ev=3D
el
>>
>> of
>>>>
>>>> expertise does the venue offer.
>>>> Yes there are those =3DA0places were it is obvious (decorate bisqued p=
ie=3D
ces
>>>> with supplied =3DA0glazes). But, how
>>>> does Mary Q Public find out more about a place =3DA0without know the
>>
>> questions
>>>>
>>>> to ask?
>>>>
>>>> This is =3DA0an opportunity for Clay Art/Ceramics Monthly/The Potters
>>>> =3DA0Council/Schools ... to step in and provide a service
>>>> to the =3DA0community and the public.
>>>>
>>>> Chris
>>>> ----- =3DA0Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Ron Roy" =3DA0
>>>>
>>>>> If we were to support =3DA0the idea of good craftsmanship here on cla=
ya=3D
rt -
>>>>> as a group - =3DA0so that others would understand how important it is=
-
>>>>> that =3DA0would help.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I have brought the subject =3DA0up many times on this list and have w=
ai=3D
ted
>>>>> - mostly in vain - =3DA0for others to second the =3DA0motion.
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
--=3D20
http://twitter.com/MayLuk
Lee Love on wed 14 jul 10
On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 6:07 PM, Jeff Jeff wrote:
> backgrounds to participate. If your pots are good then you'll have a
> certificate/seal to prove it.
A UL "stamp of approval" falls short IMHO. It would pretty much
be another marketing gimmick. We don't need more industry in craft.
The whole point of the arts and crafts movement and the Mingei
movement was to create ways of making that don't demand people to
conform to machines (whither it be a microwave, dishwasher or assembly
line.)
You have to consider the whole pot for your standards to
mean anything.
If we really want to do something substantial, developing
curricula would be the place to start. Guilds, apprentice systems,
and thoughtful university systems could help create whole craftsmen.
What we do is more than making objects. Anything that reduces our
work to objects takes us in the wrong direction.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
Randall Moody on wed 14 jul 10
On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 7:07 PM, Jeff Jeff wrote:
> Not at all Lee. Certification starts somewhere. If Ron thinks it would he=
lp
> then make a go of it and BECOME the person who certifies.
>
> It would be interesting to see the effect it would have in the
> marketplace.
>
> Perhaps, after potters explain to their customers what the seal means,
> those potters will see better sales and other potters will want to get a
> "seal"
> as well. Maybe this will start the process of creating standards in the
> community?
>
> In addition, a process of standards might counter the "I went to school
> here so my pots must be good." mentality and allow people with various
> backgrounds to participate. If your pots are good then you'll have a
> certificate/seal to prove it.
>
> Jeff Longtin
> Minneapolis
>
>
> Who certifies the certifiers? All people should be able to participate in
art. If your pots are good then you don't need somebody certifying them.
They will stand or fall on their own.
--
Randall in Atlanta
http://wrandallmoody.com/home.html
Lee Love on wed 14 jul 10
Probably the best way to make good pots, is to be exposed to good
pots. Workshops with potters like Diana Pancioli are the way to go.
Studio potters are an interesting hybrid. Our craft includes
technical and aesthetic aspects that can't be separated is you are
going for "the good pot." Leach helped us point in this direction
when he wrote "Toward A Standard." Some quotes below:
=3D93We have no objections to taking hints from anywhere, providing the
resulting pots have a use and life of their own.=3D94 (Leach 225)
=3D93Backwards we cannot go. A greater consciousness is our birthright;
our difficult task is consequently one of deepening consciousness
towards a new wholeness.=3D94 ~Bernard Leach A Potter in Japan 1952-54
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
Jeff Jeff on wed 14 jul 10
Not at all Lee. Certification starts somewhere. If Ron thinks it would hel=
=3D
p=3D20
then make a go of it and BECOME the person who certifies.
=3D20
It would be interesting to see the effect it would have in the marketplac=
=3D
e.
=3D20
Perhaps, after potters explain to their customers what the seal means, =3D2=
0
those potters will see better sales and other potters will want to get a=3D
"seal"=3D20
as well. Maybe this will start the process of creating standards in the=3D
=3D20
community?
=3D20
In addition, a process of standards might counter the "I went to school=3D
=3D20
here so my pots must be good." mentality and allow people with various =3D2=
0
backgrounds to participate. If your pots are good then you'll have a =3D20
certificate/seal to prove it.=3D20
=3D20
Jeff Longtin
Minneapolis
=3D20
=3D20
=3D20
In a message dated 7/14/2010 10:46:05 A.M. Central Daylight Time, =3D20
cwiddershins@gmail.com writes:
You are joking?
On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 10:10 PM, Jeff Jeff wrote:
> Hey Ron,
>
> In the US we have something called the Underwriters Laboratory. Perhaps=
=3D
=3D20
we
> could develop a system of certification thru the Potter's Council. ("PC
> Approved" or something?) And then issue a plaque that the person can=3D2=
0
show at
> their place of business or booth?
>
> Perhaps you can write up a series of requirements and then charge a sma=
=3D
ll
> fee for anyone who seeks certification? Upon successful completion you=
=3D
=3D20
then
> give them the certificate?
>
> As well we could introduce the idea to fair promoters and encourage the=
=3D
m=3D20
to
> ADVERTISE the fact that they have "certified" potters in their show.
>
> a few ideas anyway...
>
> Jeff Longtin
> Minneapolis
>
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 7/13/2010 1:19:35 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> ronroy@CA.INTER.NET writes:
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> Perhaps a first step would be to find out how many here on ClayArt
> feel the same way - sort of a core group.
>
> Perhaps an article for a magazine on how those of us - who think this
> is important - build quality into our pots.
>
> Do any potters advertise their craftsmanship in their show booths? If
> so what do they say?
>
> I know you can't impose rules on potters but that is no reason why
> persuasion should not be used - especially when it is in the best
> interest of potters to do it right.
>
> I've changes the subject line to standards by the way.
>
> RR
>
> Quoting Dana & Chris Trabka :
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dana & Chris Trabka"
>> To:
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 11:03 AM
>> Subject: Re: Pricing. Can we talk?
>>
>>
>>> Ron,
>>>
>>> I too believe that it necessary to be able to create a pot that=3D20
displays
>>> sound craftsmanship.
>>> A pot suited to its purpose. The apprentice/master was good model fo=
=3D
r
>>> learning the craft of making good sound pots.
>>>
>>> Today it is the community center, the small studios that teach other=
=3D
s
> how
>>> to make pots and the schools that are
>>> the main venue for learning the craft of pottery. However, they are=
=3D
=3D20
not
>>> all the same. Some you learn how to
>>> hand build only, some you might get to know about glaze formulation=3D
and
>>> clay-glaze fit.
>>>
>>> It would be nice to have a way where the public would know what leve=
=3D
l
> of
>>> expertise does the venue offer.
>>> Yes there are those places were it is obvious (decorate bisqued piec=
=3D
es
>>> with supplied glazes). But, how
>>> does Mary Q Public find out more about a place without know the
> questions
>>> to ask?
>>>
>>> This is an opportunity for Clay Art/Ceramics Monthly/The Potters
>>> Council/Schools ... to step in and provide a service
>>> to the community and the public.
>>>
>>> Chris
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Ron Roy"
>>>
>>>> If we were to support the idea of good craftsmanship here on clayar=
=3D
t=3D20
-
>>>> as a group - so that others would understand how important it is -
>>>> that would help.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I have brought the subject up many times on this list and have wait=
=3D
ed
>>>> - mostly in vain - for others to second the motion.
>>>
>>
>
-- =3D20
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DE2=3D80=3D9CObserve the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim t=
hem.=3D
Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3DE2=3D80=3D9D --Rumi
Lee Love on thu 15 jul 10
On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 12:34 AM, Ann Brink wrote:
> I think that most purchasers of pottery won't care that much about our
> "creds"....they will eyeball a piece, handle it, then buy or not buy
> according to how much they like it, plain & simple.
I think so Ann. If you've been around a while, you develop a
reputation. I can only see having some kind of UL type,
commercial/technical certification as being useful for marketing for
people who have no track record or make work that is more like
commercial ware than handmade.
Really, education curricula is the place to begin. Guilds, not
filled with self annointed masters, apprenticeship programs and
university studio programs with a craft orientation are the way to go.
Isn't a place like Alfred a school you think of for technical
expertise? Center For Advanced Ceramic Technology.
http://cact.alfred.edu/why.html We do have some fine resources
available currently.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
Ron Roy on thu 15 jul 10
Hi May,
First of all it is not my idea - I don't think making a certificate
program to be a viable idea. How would you enforce such a system?
I just think we should talk about this more often and try to persuade
more potters to take the making of functional ware more to heart.
Making useful pots that work should surely be one of our aims.
I have no problem with someone buying a second and enjoying it - as
long as they know why it's a second and if it might not suit it's
function.
I just don't understand how anyone can argue against good
craftsmanship. The talk about artistic license has nothing to do with
what I am talking about.
So sorry to hear you have no studio - as if you did not have a hard
enough time already.
R
Quoting May Luk :
> Dear Ron;
>
> The certificate sounds like a good idea for potters and getting into
> serious shows. However, that is very one sided. You neglected human
> psychology when they are out shopping.
>
> Often times when I do an open studio, somebody would pick up something
> from the back shelf, the stuff that was there because it was a sample
> - an experiment gone wrong and not meant for sale. The more I
> explained to the customer is not for sale, it's no good because of
> this or that, the more they want it. They think I'm being an artist! A
> lot of people like flaws and they think it's part of the charm and
> it's part of the craft. How do I tell them "oh, no, you don't know
> what you are talking about, you are not educated, Put. it. back?"
>
> I have bought seconds and I have loved it a lot and used it for many
> years because "I like it" This was also before I was doing ceramics. I
> didn't have the "trained eyes", but one cannot discount the enjoyment
> that I had with those pieces.
>
> People like and buy 'stuff' for a lot of reasons. Well made is just
> one of it.
>
> May
> Brooklyn NY
>
> On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 8:09 PM, Ron Roy wrote:
>> Hi Jeff,
>>
>> I think it would be a good selling point but how would you know the
>> latest pots would pass the test. Unless you have some way of keeping
>> everyone honest it would not mean much.
>>
>> I was a board member for the Ontario Clay and Glass Association for
>> about a dozen years - the subject came up a number of times - mainly
>> about introducing some tough requirements for getting into shows. Lots
>> of resentment surfaced and very hard to get a consensus - I would
>> think it would be much tougher in the US.
>>
>> I do think we should keep talking about it - there are many who do
>> have standards and try hard to do a good job - even though it costs
>> them in time and effort.
>>
>> In the end it will not cost more to do the job right - less returned
>> pots and better customer relations.
>>
>> RR
>>
>>
>> Quoting Jeff Jeff :
>>
>>> Hey Ron,
>>>
>>> In the US we have something called the Underwriters Laboratory. Perhaps=
we
>>> could develop a system of certification thru the Potter's Council. ("PC
>>> Approved" or something?) And then issue a plaque that the person can sh=
ow
>>> at
>>> their place of business or booth?
>>>
>>> Perhaps you can write up a series of requirements and then charge a sma=
ll
>>> fee for anyone who seeks certification? Upon successful completion you
>>> then
>>> give them the certificate?
>>>
>>> As well we could introduce the idea to fair promoters and encourage the=
m
>>> to
>>> ADVERTISE the fact that they have "certified" potters in their sh=
ow.
>>>
>>> a few ideas anyway...
>>>
>>> Jeff Longtin
>>> Minneapolis
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 7/13/2010 1:19:35 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
>>> ronroy@CA.INTER.NET writes:
>>>
>>> Hi Chris,
>>>
>>> Perhaps a first step would be to find out how many here on ClayAr=
t
>>> feel the same way - sort of a core group.
>>>
>>> Perhaps an article for a magazine on how those of us - who think =
this
>>> is important - build quality into our pots.
>>>
>>> Do any potters advertise their craftsmanship in their show booths=
? If
>>> so what do they say?
>>>
>>> I know you can't impose rules on potters but that is no reason wh=
y
>>> persuasion should not be used - especially when it is in the best
>>> interest of potters to do it right.
>>>
>>> I've changes the subject line to standards by the way.
>>>
>>> RR
>>>
>>> Quoting Dana & Chris Trabka :
>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Dana & Chris Trabka"
>>>> To:
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 11:03 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: Pricing. Can we talk?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Ron,
>>>>>
>>>>> I too believe that it necessary to be able to create a pot that
>>>>> displays
>>>>> sound craftsmanship.
>>>>> A pot suited to its purpose. The apprentice/master was
>>>>> good model for
>>>>> learning the craft of making good sound pots.
>>>>>
>>>>> Today it is the community center, the small studios that
>>>>> teach others
>>>
>>> how
>>>>>
>>>>> to make pots and the schools that are
>>>>> the main venue for learning the craft of pottery. However,
>>>>> they are not
>>>>> all the same. Some you learn how to
>>>>> hand build only, some you might get to know about glaze
>>>>> formulation and
>>>>> clay-glaze fit.
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be nice to have a way where the public would know
>>>>> what level
>>>
>>> of
>>>>>
>>>>> expertise does the venue offer.
>>>>> Yes there are those places were it is obvious (decorate
>>>>> bisqued pieces
>>>>> with supplied glazes). But, how
>>>>> does Mary Q Public find out more about a place without know the
>>>
>>> questions
>>>>>
>>>>> to ask?
>>>>>
>>>>> This is an opportunity for Clay Art/Ceramics Monthly/The Potter=
s
>>>>> Council/Schools ... to step in and provide a service
>>>>> to the community and the public.
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Ron Roy"
>>>>>
>>>>>> If we were to support the idea of good craftsmanship here
>>>>>> on clayart -
>>>>>> as a group - so that others would understand how important it =
is -
>>>>>> that would help.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I have brought the subject up many times on this list and
>>>>>> have waited
>>>>>> - mostly in vain - for others to second the motion.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> http://twitter.com/MayLuk
>
Lee Love on thu 15 jul 10
On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 5:35 PM, Ron Roy wrote:
> I just don't understand how anyone can argue against good
> craftsmanship. The talk about artistic license has nothing to do with
> what I am talking about.
I've not heard a single person argue against good
craftsmanship. But why do you think aesthetic considerations cannot
be considered at the same time as craftsmanship?
All of my work is dishwasher, oven and microwave safe. But
not all the pots I own are. These are arbitrary measures that do not
fit all functional pots.
Is it craftsmanship to demand that all clothing be made to be able to
be washed in a washing machine and be dried in an electric dryer? Do
we forgo fine silk and wool just to conform to machines?
There is very fine functional earthenware. There are
good woodfired pots fired in large kilns that might not be suitable to
the microwave. You shouldn't put gold decorated Satsuma in the
microwave or dishwasher if you want to keep the gold nice.
If we are going to make things that only pass the test of
work sold at Walmart, we turn our backs on some of the best pots ever
made.
I can't trust folks to make standards for studio pottery who
can't understand these issues. Why be afraid of aesthetics?
Check this out. We just watch this on our public tv station:
http://blip.tv/file/3872209
This week on mn original: We're with potter Warren Mackenzie in his
Stillwater studio where he shapes clay into simple, functional pieces,
as he's done for more than 60 years.
Through an ancient southern Indian dance form, Ranee and Aparna
Ramaswamy of Ragamala Dance interpret worship of sacred waters.
And, folk-rock group The Starfolk performs.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
May Luk on fri 16 jul 10
Hi Ron and friends;
My immediate response to the original subject line was everything
comes from the top. Or more precisely, from the bottom foundation.
Aren't these qualities be taught at school & workshops already?
Perhaps the teachers and workshop leaders should be certified so that
students are taught the "standard' way should they desired. Schools
can take in certificate when they are hiring workshop teachers, like a
resale number when one sells at fairs.
This certificate is only one feature and benefits of advertising
workshops and classes. One can be 'certified' and go on and teach the
non-standard and more "experimental" way, but it is an awareness that
would bring on to everybody.
Everybody would have choices as long as we are informed. Wonky ware
makers sell to wonky ware lovers; The perfection connoisseur sell to
perfectionists; leaky ware makers sell to dry food eaters, etc.
May
Brooklyn NY
P.S. Thanks Ron, now I have more time chatting on Clayart. "-)
On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 6:35 PM, wrote:
> Hi May,
>
> First of all it is not my idea - I don't think making a certificate progr=
am
> to be a viable idea. How would you enforce such a system?
>
> I just think we should talk about this more often and try to persuade mor=
e
> potters to take the making of functional ware more to heart. Making usefu=
l
> pots that work should surely be one of our aims.
>
> I have no problem with someone buying a second and enjoying it - as long =
as
> they know why it's a second and if it might not suit it's function.
>
> I just don't understand how anyone can argue against good craftsmanship. =
The
> talk about artistic license has nothing to do with what I am talking abou=
t.
>
> So sorry to hear you have no studio - as if you did not have a hard enoug=
h
> time already.
>
> R
>
>
Johanna San Inocencio on fri 16 jul 10
--=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DAVGMAIL-7FFC0DE0=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1; format=3Dflowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lee, Thank you for sharing the video. I hope to be 86 someday and still
throwing.
Johanna
"A man is as free as he chooses to make himself,
never an atom freer."
The Raven, Lillith by George MacDonald
On 7/15/2010 8:37 PM, Lee Love wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 5:35 PM, Ron Roy wrote:
>
>
>> I just don't understand how anyone can argue against good
>> craftsmanship. The talk about artistic license has nothing to do with
>> what I am talking about.
>>
> I've not heard a single person argue against good
> craftsmanship. But why do you think aesthetic considerations cannot
> be considered at the same time as craftsmanship?
>
> All of my work is dishwasher, oven and microwave safe. But
> not all the pots I own are. These are arbitrary measures that do not
> fit all functional pots.
>
> Is it craftsmanship to demand that all clothing be made to be able to
> be washed in a washing machine and be dried in an electric dryer? Do
> we forgo fine silk and wool just to conform to machines?
>
> There is very fine functional earthenware. There are
> good woodfired pots fired in large kilns that might not be suitable to
> the microwave. You shouldn't put gold decorated Satsuma in the
> microwave or dishwasher if you want to keep the gold nice.
>
> If we are going to make things that only pass the test of
> work sold at Walmart, we turn our backs on some of the best pots ever
> made.
>
> I can't trust folks to make standards for studio pottery who
> can't understand these issues. Why be afraid of aesthetics?
>
> Check this out. We just watch this on our public tv station:
>
> http://blip.tv/file/3872209
>
> This week on mn original: We're with potter Warren Mackenzie in his
> Stillwater studio where he shapes clay into simple, functional pieces,
> as he's done for more than 60 years.
>
> Through an ancient southern Indian dance form, Ranee and Aparna
> Ramaswamy of Ragamala Dance interpret worship of sacred waters.
>
> And, folk-rock group The Starfolk performs.
>
>
> --
> Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
> http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
>
> "Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
> the artistry moving through and be silent." --Rumi
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.839 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3009 - Release Date: 07/16/10 =
01:35:00
>
>
--=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DAVGMAIL-7FFC0DE0=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg=3Dcert; charset=3Dus-ascii
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Content-Description: "Certification"
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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:=3D
35:00
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steve graber on fri 16 jul 10
this kinda reminds me of current public TV with lame-ass no brainer "realit=
=3D
y TV" =3D0Ashows.=3DA0 (sorry - no offense to anyone who likes all that #$%=
^&*(=3D
) crap that i =3D0Aconsider slop for dogs)(but my opinions best kept off li=
ne=3D
).=3D0A=3D0Ait's=3DA0the market that drives all product prices.=3DA0 good q=
uality s=3D
ells at it's best =3D0Asupply-demand price.=3DA0 that may not be the HIGHES=
T pr=3D
ice, but that's how it =3D0Agoes.=3DA0 the claim that really good art sells=
bes=3D
t after the poor guy is dead =3D0Amight be real.=3DA0 didn't jack lemon mak=
e a =3D
movie about that?=3DA0 (oh crap - old fart =3D0Aalert!)=3D0A=3D0Acontinued =
educatio=3D
n of customers=3DA0goes along with kaos theory that=3DA0when things =3D0Aar=
e left=3D
alone, they get screwed up.=3DA0 people need constant information to=3DA0l=
earn=3D
=3D0Aor retain what they think they know.=3DA0=3DA0all of us need to be=3D=
A0choir =3D
people for the =3D0Avalue of pottery and tell our story as many times as ne=
ed=3D
ed.=3DA0 it truly does =3D0Abecome easy with repetition.=3DA0 and our enthu=
siasm =3D
should carry across to who =3D0Aevery we explain the whys-hows and how come=
's=3D
to.=3DA0 =3D0A=3D0A=3DA0Steve Graber, Graber's Pottery, Inc=3D0AClaremont,=
Californi=3D
a USA=3D0AThe Steve Tool - for awesome texture on pots! =3D0Awww.graberspot=
tery=3D
.com steve@graberspottery.com =3D0A=3D0A=3D0AOn Laguna Clay's website=3D0Ah=
ttp://ww=3D
w.lagunaclay.com/blogs/ =3D0A=3D0A...somebody otta...we otta...but i came t=
o re=3D
alize that the crap pottery made by =3D0Adunce potters was here to stay and=
m=3D
ade my stuff and the other potter's work, =3D0Awho like me were concerned w=
it=3D
h craftsmanship, pottery form, function, =3D0Aaesthetics and bringing these=
a=3D
ll together in each pot produced, just look =3D0Abetter to the educated buy=
er=3D
.=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A
phil on fri 16 jul 10
Hi Ann,
I think so also.
The Pottery I have bought or traded for is this way also - ( be-cause, I
liked it...)
Phil
Lv
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ann Brink"
I think that most purchasers of pottery won't care that much about our
"creds"....they will eyeball a piece, handle it, then buy or not buy
according to how much they like it, plain & simple. Maybe this has been
said already-I've been too busy to read many posts.
Ann Brink in Lompoc Ca
(mostly about pottery)
David Woof on fri 16 jul 10
Hi Jeff=3D2C =3D20
=3D20
This is a very valuable discussion and a subject to bandie about because it=
=3D
stimulates=3D2C reminds and hopefully educates new ones in what to strive =
fo=3D
r. It comes up about once a year=3D3B has since i sat in the art fair park=
s =3D
with my potter companions decades ago...somebody otta...we otta...but i cam=
=3D
e to realize that the crap pottery made by dunce potters was here to stay a=
=3D
nd made my stuff and the other potter's work=3D2C who like me were concerne=
d =3D
with craftsmanship=3D2C pottery form=3D2C function=3D2C aesthetics and brin=
ging t=3D
hese all together in each pot produced=3D2C just look better to the educate=
d =3D
buyer.
=3D20
So educating the buyer=3D2C educating myself and making ever better pots be=
ca=3D
me my task. Still is=3D2C and like a prospecting salesman I keep talking=
=3D2C =3D
explaining and demonstrating.
We only play to at most 10% of the population. Folks who care about the eff=
=3D
ect the afore named concerns have in their lives.
=3D20
So we need not compete with markets that satisfy the needs of the 90% Wal-m=
=3D
art shoppers=3D2C but we damn well better lug a potter's wheel around unde=
r =3D
one arm and let folks see how the real and good stuff is made. You see it=
=3D
in their eyes when you remind them or wake them up for the first time. =3D=
20
And these folks come from all walks of life and social/economic status. I=
=3D
t turns my heart especially to meet a young hungry high school educated wor=
=3D
king person=3D2C working to support a family or a habit=3D2C who hungry for=
"mo=3D
re" buys a wood fired mug because they get it. Who knows where that mug m=
=3D
ay take them in future life decisions. Or that "disruptive" 6th grader who=
=3D
may grow to become the next Clay Artist wonder because a potter gave a bit=
=3D
of encouragement and attention and even if for a moment access to clay on =
=3D
a turning wheel. How long does it take to know what is right if we are lis=
=3D
tening?
=3D20
But educate we must! First ourselves never ending=3D2C then each other and =
ou=3D
r customers. I mean our personal customer base who become a widening circl=
=3D
e of friends and "followers"(read paying customers). =3D20
=3D20
James=3D2C say it again! I've been saying it for years=3D3B it is a favor=
ite =3D
line: It is me they buy=3D2C it is my work they get to take home. =3D20
=3D20
Be out there=3D2C accessible and sharing your clay passion.
=3D20
And if it is just a job=3D2C or a life style one is enamored to and you rea=
ll=3D
y don't want to work it=3D2C or enjoy paying your dues=3D2C then get the he=
ll o=3D
ut and go find something you are passionate about or work for Wal-mart=3D3B=
=3D
I hear they offer to help you sign up for a good state funded health plan a=
=3D
s a work benefit.
=3D20
David Woof...Clarkdale=3D2C Arizona and elsewhere...
=3D20
11a. Re: Standards (was Pricing. Can we talk?)
Posted by: "Jeff Jeff" plasterjfl@AOL.COM=3D20
Date: Wed Jul 14=3D2C 2010 8:27 am ((PDT))
Hey Ron=3D2C
In the US we have something called the Underwriters Laboratory. Perhaps we
could develop a system of certification thru the Potter's Council. ("PC
Approved" or something?) And then issue a plaque that the person can show a=
=3D
t
their place of business or booth?
Perhaps you can write up a series of requirements and then charge a small
fee for anyone who seeks certification? Upon successful completion you then
give them the certificate?
As well we could introduce the idea to fair promoters and encourage them to
ADVERTISE the fact that they have "certified" potters in their show.
a few ideas anyway...
Jeff Longtin
Minneapolis
=3D20
=3D20
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your =
=3D
inbox.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=3D3DPID28326::T:WLMTAGL=
:O=3D
N:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2=3D
Lee Love on fri 16 jul 10
On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 3:49 AM, phil wrote:
> The Pottery I have bought or traded for is this way also - ( be-cause, I
> liked it...)
Here are a couple of our recent purchases. The vase is white
stoneware or porcelain and the pig bank is earthenware, from a garage
sale. Both by Mike Norman.
http://heartclay.blogspot.com/2010/07/mike-norman-work.html
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
Eleanor on fri 16 jul 10
Ron Roy said:
>
> I just think we should talk about this more often and try to persuade
> more potters to take the making of functional ware more to heart.
> Making useful pots that work should surely be one of our aims.
This is WISDOM.
Probably like many others, I have not had the time or patience to read
all of the arguments pertaining to pricing and standards but I'm
getting the feeling that many are in favor of written standards,
certification, "seals of approval", etc. for potters.
I don't trust juries, judges, committees. These are humans and as
humans, they have agendas. I have known potters who make beautiful,
"perfect" work, both functional and sculptural, who have been refused
entry into "Juried" craft sales. Conversely, I have seen pottery in
"Juried" fairs which, IMO, should have been hammered (I also have an
agenda). Who knows how these judges arrived at their decisions?
Who is going to judge or certify that each and every pot I make is
vitrified and without cracks, crazes or pinholes and that the glaze is
"safe"? Can such a judgement be made based on a few pots I submit for
judgement? I'll be sure to show the judge racers, not seconds.
I routinely test my functional ware for leakage (they're watertight)
and my teapots to see whether they pour properly (they don't; I'm
working on that). I assumed all functional potters did this; if they
didn't, now they know thanks to Clayart.
An astute person (my husband) pointed out that some kind of
certification may be a marketing tool. I beg to differ. Some customers
pick up my pots, examine them carefully, inside and out, before
buying. But recently I had a customer who eyeballed my display,
pointed to three pots and said, "I'll take those". Nobody looks or
asks for seals of approval or certification of any kind. They ignore
the certificate that shows I collect and pay NY State tax.
A craftsman, an artist, needs to learn the materials and the basic
techniques of his art/craft and there are institutions, workshops,
even books, which teach these things. And there is an ongoing exchange
of ideas and new information in resources like Clayart. Ron Roy has
the right idea. We need to talk about ways to achieve perfection. We
need to police ourselves.
My email signature says it all: implementing what sounds like a good
idea may be impossible, unnecessary, even undesirable.
Eleanor Kohler
There is an ad in Prevention Magazine (Prevention, mind you!) for a
prescription medication for the pain of Rheumatoid Arthritis. This
drug is approved for public sale by the FDA, an agency which _judges_
meds. The ad takes six pages, five of which are devoted to side
effects. A major side effect, mentioned more than once---they don't
say "rare side effect" --is DEATH(!!!). So much for trusting juries.
".... philosophers lay down many precepts fair in argument but not
applicable in use"
--Sir Francis Bacon
Ron Roy on fri 16 jul 10
Lee!
All I have ever said is - if your pots are not good for some things - say s=
o=3D
.
If you your pots can be used in a microwave oven and in a dish washer =3D20
- say so.
There is nothing complicated about this - tell the truth!
RR
Quoting Lee Love :
> On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 5:35 PM, Ron Roy wrote:
>
>> I just don't understand how anyone can argue against good
>> craftsmanship. The talk about artistic license has nothing to do with
>> what I am talking about.
>
> I've not heard a single person argue against good
> craftsmanship. But why do you think aesthetic considerations cannot
> be considered at the same time as craftsmanship?
>
> All of my work is dishwasher, oven and microwave safe. But
> not all the pots I own are. These are arbitrary measures that do not
> fit all functional pots.
>
> Is it craftsmanship to demand that all clothing be made to be able to
> be washed in a washing machine and be dried in an electric dryer? Do
> we forgo fine silk and wool just to conform to machines?
>
> There is very fine functional earthenware. There are
> good woodfired pots fired in large kilns that might not be suitable to
> the microwave. You shouldn't put gold decorated Satsuma in the
> microwave or dishwasher if you want to keep the gold nice.
>
> If we are going to make things that only pass the test of
> work sold at Walmart, we turn our backs on some of the best pots ever
> made.
>
> I can't trust folks to make standards for studio pottery who
> can't understand these issues. Why be afraid of aesthetics?
>
> Check this out. We just watch this on our public tv station:
>
> http://blip.tv/file/3872209
>
> This week on mn original: We're with potter Warren Mackenzie in his
> Stillwater studio where he shapes clay into simple, functional pieces,
> as he's done for more than 60 years.
>
> Through an ancient southern Indian dance form, Ranee and Aparna
> Ramaswamy of Ragamala Dance interpret worship of sacred waters.
>
> And, folk-rock group The Starfolk performs.
>
>
> --
> Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
> http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
>
> =3DE2=3D80=3D9CObserve the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim =
them. F=3D
eel
> the artistry moving through and be silent.=3DE2=3D80=3D9D --Rumi
>
KATHI LESUEUR on fri 16 jul 10
On Jul 16, 2010, at 2:09 PM, Eleanor wrote:
> <kind. They ignore
> the certificate that shows I collect and pay NY State tax.>>
>=3D20
Last weekend at a fair a woman came up with a small tray, handed me a =3D
$10 bill and said, "Is there sales tax?" "Yes", I said. "Good answer", =3D
she replied. She went on to explain that she was an IRS auditor but =3D
could just as well have been from the Ohio Department of Revenue =3D
checking to see that I was charging sales tax. We then got into a =3D
discussion of the sales tax laws for collecting and submitting sales =3D
tax. In most states you are required to charge sales tax separately from =
=3D
the cost of the item. Usually, food vendors are the only ones allowed to =
=3D
include tax in the price of the sale. The penalties for failure to =3D
follow this law can be quite severe in some states. And, in this tough =3D
economy states are looking to charge you a penalty whenever they can. I =3D
know it's easier to just say that the tax is included, but when you do =3D
that, many states will assume that you don't intend to pay them the =3D
sales tax. The burden then is on you to prove that the sales tax they =3D
decide you owe is more than you really owe.
=3D46rom there we went on to discuss the tax liabilities in a cash =3D
business like art fairs. I've been audited and make sure I declare every =
=3D
dollar I take in . The worst thing you can do is hold out some cash. =3D
They will assume you are holding out more than you say. I have a friend =3D
who never declares the cash she takes in, just the checks and charges. =3D
She thinks the IRS will have to prove how much cash she takes in. If she =
=3D
is ever audited she'll probably lose everything she has. The IRS will =3D
make a determination about how much cash she has held out over her =3D
thirty year career and then assess penalties and interest. Again, her =3D
burden to prove them wrong. A losing battle.=3D20
Collect the tax and pay it. Deposit all of your sales and declare the =3D
income. In the end it's just to expensive to do otherwise.
KATHI LESUEUR
http://www.lesueurclaywork.com
Larry Kruzan on sat 17 jul 10
A couple have said that we don't want to be compared to plumbers and such =
=3D
- have you hired a plumber lately????? =3D2475 a hour is not to bad a livin=
g.
Larry Kruzan
Lost Creek Pottery
www.lostcreekpottery.com
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D
Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
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Larry Kruzan on sat 17 jul 10
I would humbly disagree that plumbers, electricians and such cannot be
artists. A clumsy plumber will make your life miserable for decades whereas
one who is a total craftsman (and artist) will make you life wonderful. A
plumber that approaches his job in a creative manner can solve problems
without carving into supporting structure - the other type will be cutting
everywhere and be sawing the foundation out from under your bed.
Now you say that an electrician who knows his stuff is not an artist but If
you ever opened a electrical panel in a flight simulator that an electrical
engineer (who has ANY artistic bent) has built (and YOU know what you are
looking at) you can see the art in it. Wires can be a jumble of confusion
and work or they can be organized into a creative image as impressive as an=
y
painting. The problem here is perception - you do not consider that trades
can be artistic - so no art exists in their work.
I have opened such and just said WOW and stood there (back when I could
stand) looking at how they did what they did. Just as I recently sat before
several works of Picasso admiring his skill.
ALL form of human endeavor can be artistic creations - or they can just
function, poorly if done without art. I know that when I built my home I
checked out each subcontractors work before they were hired - and fired two
while they were working. We do not have to accept less in any part of our
life. Even flushing the toilet.
Larry Kruzan
Lost Creek Pottery
www.lostcreekpottery.com
From: Randall Moody [mailto:randall.moody@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 10:58 AM
To: Larry Kruzan
Cc: Clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
Subject: Re: Standards (was Pricing. Can we talk?)
On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Larry Kruzan
wrote:
A couple have said that we don't want to be compared to plumbers and such -
have you hired a plumber lately????? $75 a hour is not to bad a living.
Larry Kruzan
Lost Creek Pottery
www.lostcreekpottery.com
But they are not Artists and don't attempt to portray themselves as such.
The amount of money you get doesn't make it art. Look at Van Gogh or any of
the street artists.
--
Randall in Atlanta
http://wrandallmoody.com/home.html
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Michael Wendt on sat 17 jul 10
Kathi,
Great points! (see her comments below)
Recently, interest rates have been lower so we decided to
buy a new car.
We went in, made an offer and were accepted with no delay.
Why?
Because we ring every penny through the cash register no
mater how small.
This gives our bank a true picture of how much we really
earn and shows we a credit worthy.
When I first started, I went to an accountant to see if he
would do my books and taxes.
During the visit, his advice was get and use a cash register
with departments that track taxable and non-taxable sales.
I did and have never been sorry.
The taxes practically do themselves at the end of the year.
Bottom line...
It is a terrible mistake to pocket any money without
declaring it. How can you buy large ticket items without
proving you have the financial means to pay?
What do you say to the bank?
"Oh, I have plenty of money to cover the car payment because
I steal all the cash that comes in."
Just think what it would mean to our society if everyone who
pocketed money under the table stepped up and paid the taxes
on those earnings.
Our national debt might not be so large.
Regards,
Michael Wendt
Kathi wrote:
From there we went on to discuss the tax liabilities in a
cash business like art fairs. I've been audited and make
sure I declare every dollar I take in . The worst thing you
can do is hold out some cash. They will assume you are
holding out more than you say. I have a friend who never
declares the cash she takes in, just the checks and charges.
She thinks the IRS will have to prove how much cash she
takes in. If she is ever audited she'll probably lose
everything she has. The IRS will make a determination about
how much cash she has held out over her thirty year career
and then assess penalties and interest. Again, her burden to
prove them wrong. A losing battle.
Collect the tax and pay it. Deposit all of your sales and
declare the income. In the end it's just to expensive to do
otherwise.
KATHI LESUEUR
Randall Moody on sat 17 jul 10
On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Larry Kruzan wr=
ote:
> A couple have said that we don't want to be compared to plumbers and such=
-
> have you hired a plumber lately????? $75 a hour is not to bad a living.
>
> Larry Kruzan
> Lost Creek Pottery
> www.lostcreekpottery.com
>
>
>
But they are not Artists and don't attempt to portray themselves as such.
The amount of money you get doesn't make it art. Look at Van Gogh or any of
the street artists.
--
Randall in Atlanta
http://wrandallmoody.com/home.html
Randall Moody on sat 17 jul 10
On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 12:35 PM, Robert Harris wr=
ote:
> What in the hell defines Art? Of course the amount of money you get
> for something doesn't definine it as Art, but personally I have a real
> problem with anyone trying to define Art period.
>
> I think that trying to state that "This is art and that isn't" is a
> completely bogus, self-important and most significantly completely
> subjective exercise.
>
> Personally I feel that the definition of Art has changed dramatically
> over the years, which is proof that it is undefinable. Let's face it,
> a shark in a vat of formaldehyde has very little in common with Icons
> glorying God. Both were called Art in their time.
>
> Does one call the Egyptian tomb murals Art? I wonder if the ancient
> Egyptians called them Art, or merely saw them as records of events
> (past or future). Likewise the friezes on the Parthenon, were these
> seen as Art?
>
> Art certainly does not have to be beautiful, I love Hieronymus Bosch,
> but would hesitate to call his stuff "beautiful", likewise John
> Bellany's bird women. They're definitely Art though. Equally Monet's
> water Lily's are definitely beautiful, but rather too boring (in this
> jaded time) for me to like them.
>
> So, since the definition of Art is so mutable stop trying to tell
> people that this or that isn't art.
>
> Robert
>
> >>
> >>
> > But they are not Artists and don't attempt to portray themselves as suc=
h.
> > The amount of money you get doesn't make it art. Look at Van Gogh or an=
y
> of
> > the street artists.
> >
> > --
> > Randall in Atlanta
> > http://wrandallmoody.com/home.html
> >
>
>
I am not sure that this was directed at me but I certainly have not tried t=
o
define "art". It must be pointed out that if everything is considered "art"
then the term becomes so broad as to be meaningless. If we get to that poin=
t
then everything is art and everything isn't art. The discourse ends up
computing infinity.
--
Randall in Atlanta
http://wrandallmoody.com/home.html
Dave Lyons on sat 17 jul 10
Hi Randall, I'd like to mildly disagree and my comments probably are not
worth a debate as this topic has been kicked around Clayart a lot. Do you
have to portray yourself as an artist to be an artist? If you have an
artistic mindset, does that make you an artist? My son is a plumber, my
father a metal fabricator and welder. Neither has done formal artwork in
their jobs. Both are artistically inclined and appreciate art. My point i=
s
that with certain special projects they have done related to their work,
they both inadvertently use artistic phraseology and speak enthusiastically
with artistic pride in those special projects. They speak of inspiration,
creativity, seeking functionality, problem solving, and pride in the
finished product. I would consider them unintentional craftsmen/artists.
Neither mentioned the money.
Dave Lyons
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Randall Moody
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 10:58 AM
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Standards (was Pricing. Can we talk?)
On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Larry Kruzan
wrote:
> A couple have said that we don't want to be compared to plumbers and such
-
> have you hired a plumber lately????? $75 a hour is not to bad a living.
>
> Larry Kruzan
> Lost Creek Pottery
> www.lostcreekpottery.com
>
>
>
But they are not Artists and don't attempt to portray themselves as such.
The amount of money you get doesn't make it art. Look at Van Gogh or any of
the street artists.
--
Randall in Atlanta
http://wrandallmoody.com/home.html
Lee Love on sat 17 jul 10
On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:14 AM, Larry Kruzan w=
=3D
rote:
> A couple have said that we don't want to be compared to plumbers and such=
=3D
- >have you hired a plumber lately????? $75 a hour is not to bad a living.
Larry, the trades have much more in common with functional pottery as
far as technical standards go than the fine arts do.
In Shop Class as Soulcraft, Crawford picks the trades crafts rather
than craft because it has less pretension and the relationship of
their work to standards are obvious. Also, any one working with
anyone else in a different trade knows if the other trade is doing a
good job because the toilets must flush, the corners of walls and
cabinets must meet and the lights must go on and off without starting
a fire.
Real guilds (no an association of artists) like trades unions,
is the place to start where hand work is concerned.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
Louis Katz on sat 17 jul 10
Somewhere in this discussion someone said Manifesto , and I think everyon=
=3D
e
should have one. I don't think you should be able to make pots until you=
=3D
first have one. I do.
You can read my manifesto here:
http://critical.tamucc.edu/wiki/Katz/ClayerManifesto
Yesterday I made some pots. I am sure many of you would say that they are=
=3D
just wrong. They have rough edges, they were handled very roughly, the
handles are funky. There are going to be some hairline handle cracks. The=
=3D
re
may be S cracks. Might not too, its pretty S crack resistant clay.
For 35 years or so I have thought that the attitude of the person throwin=
=3D
g
the pots impacts how the pot looks, feels, exists. I have in some ways be=
=3D
en
play acting, trying to tweak my attitude and see what affect it has on th=
=3D
e
final product. I understand that this is in many ways seems insincere, th=
=3D
at
I can only have the attitude I have, but rather than emulate pots I like =
=3D
I
try to get into the attitude taken by the person making it. I could reall=
=3D
y
be wrong about the attitude, but I try anyways. I use the process as a wa=
=3D
y
to think, to learn.
Leach wrote, "Towards a Standard" but his favorite historic pots were oft=
=3D
en
funky for lack of a better word. Look at the medieval English jugs (Berna=
=3D
rd
Rackham's book Medieval English Pottery ISBN 057104765 3 is a good source=
=3D
, I
bought mine in Bangkok at DH Books for 600 Baht or $40US in 1989. I am st=
=3D
ill
jumping with joy at finding the copy). These were GREAT pots but they had=
=3D
rough edges, sharp lips, grubby finger prints all over them, and deadly
dusted lead glazes. What ever standards y'all come up with won't approach=
=3D
our need as a society or species to work towards the kind of standards Le=
=3D
ach
was talking about.=3D20=3D20
There is lots of mess with language and the hard edges that words create
structure but also constrain our thinking. 'Sincere' comes from the Frenc=
=3D
h,
'without wax' or sans cere . It refers to furniture made with what all y'=
=3D
all
might call "good craftsmanship". That is furniture made without wax fille=
=3D
rs.=3D20
Now Yanagi in "The Mystery of Beauty" 1952, published by the Archie Bray
Foundation (found my copy in the trash in Bozeman, Montana) talks about
Korean wooden bowls turned of green wood so that they cracked and then we=
=3D
re
repaired, repaired so well,"that the cracked piece seemed better than t=
=3D
he
perfect one." In the same paragraph he asks, "Why does Japanese turnery l=
=3D
ook
hard and cold in comparison with Korean? Because we are attached to
perfection, we want to make the perfect piece. But what is human perfecti=
=3D
on
after all?
The problem a lot of clayers have with Leach, Yanagi and all of that is
that they have become "The Standard", not "a Standard" and that is a
problem. My biggest problem with the kind of technical standards being
discussed here is that they will easily become "The Standard". I think wh=
=3D
at
you really want would better result from a code of ethics. But I could be=
=3D
wrong.
We place a great deal of emphasis on the making of things and quality. An=
=3D
d
truly this is a legitimate and timely concern. But what I think we lack a=
=3D
s a
society is better described as the discerning eye, or maybe the interpret=
=3D
ive
eye. Ellen Dissanayake in "Homo Aestheticus" argues that what makes us
special as a species is the making of special things. I think equally
important is our finding meaning in things, that interpretation is at lea=
=3D
st
half the equation. Maybe what I am saying is that we have lots of handmad=
=3D
e
pots, we need more buyers:)
Now I should tie the end of this ramble to technical quality. I will hav=
=3D
e
to think about it, it will be a hard fight through the verbal delineation=
=3D
s
in my reality. But from my point of view, the separation of technical
quality from quality itself is a distinct problem, as is the confusion
between quality and qualities.=3D20
Time to edit video.
Louis
Ward Island, SoHo Texas
Robert Harris on sat 17 jul 10
What in the hell defines Art? Of course the amount of money you get
for something doesn't definine it as Art, but personally I have a real
problem with anyone trying to define Art period.
I think that trying to state that "This is art and that isn't" is a
completely bogus, self-important and most significantly completely
subjective exercise.
Personally I feel that the definition of Art has changed dramatically
over the years, which is proof that it is undefinable. Let's face it,
a shark in a vat of formaldehyde has very little in common with Icons
glorying God. Both were called Art in their time.
Does one call the Egyptian tomb murals Art? I wonder if the ancient
Egyptians called them Art, or merely saw them as records of events
(past or future). Likewise the friezes on the Parthenon, were these
seen as Art?
Art certainly does not have to be beautiful, I love Hieronymus Bosch,
but would hesitate to call his stuff "beautiful", likewise John
Bellany's bird women. They're definitely Art though. Equally Monet's
water Lily's are definitely beautiful, but rather too boring (in this
jaded time) for me to like them.
So, since the definition of Art is so mutable stop trying to tell
people that this or that isn't art.
Robert
>>
>>
> But they are not Artists and don't attempt to portray themselves as such.
> The amount of money you get doesn't make it art. Look at Van Gogh or any =
of
> the street artists.
>
> --
> Randall in Atlanta
> http://wrandallmoody.com/home.html
>
--
----------------------------------------------------------
Lee Love on sat 17 jul 10
On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Louis Katz wrote:
> half the equation. Maybe what I am saying is that we have lots of handmad=
=3D
e
> pots, we need more buyers:)
Part of the point of William Morris, Okakura Tenshin and Soetsu
Yanagi, was that we need a better society. Jean and I had arguments
during Buddhist study classes at MZMC back in the '80s. We supported
the Buddhist notion of Beauty. The main leaders of the class, more
or less said: because of impermanence/dukkha, beauty is irrelevant.
Our argument, was that precisely because of impermanence, beauty is
possible.
We said to our late teacher, Dianin Katagiri, that we
were familar with the large group of arts, tea arts and crafts
associated with Zen in Asia, but folks at the ZC seemed not at all
interested in creativity. He said the tradition was young in the
USA. When it became mature, then the attendant arts would take root
too.
So, he believed we needed a better society too.
Education is the key.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
phil on sat 17 jul 10
I would still say that the error of judgement occurred when reifying the
term 'Art' to be things or objects ( once was Objects of Art ) instead
allowing the term 'Art' to designate an unambigious harmony of dimensions
characterizing an overall quality of realization, animating or embueing
whatever arrangement or construction or presentation.
Once people began to perceive Art as superficial nouns, they went through
the 'Looking Glass' so to speak...into idiocy.
Now, the term 'Art' is applied to anything which can arouse low emotion
merely, or any emotion merely and the more superficial and depthless, the
better...so long as some context defines the presentation for distinguishin=
g
it from mere vomit on a sidewalk or other misfortune.
The 'art' of co-dependence...the 'art' of Munchausen's syndrome by
proxy...the 'art' of getting any sort of effect and exploiting it, as
academia stands to the side, nodding narrow-eyed, in grim lipped
approval...guarding their appropriation, guarding their bitch, and whoring
it to whatever john will pay.
This is the defacto 'standard', implicit, ubiquitous, and, telling.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Harris"
> What in the hell defines Art? Of course the amount of money you get
> for something doesn't definine it as Art, but personally I have a real
> problem with anyone trying to define Art period.
>
> I think that trying to state that "This is art and that isn't" is a
> completely bogus, self-important and most significantly completely
> subjective exercise.
>
> Personally I feel that the definition of Art has changed dramatically
> over the years, which is proof that it is undefinable. Let's face it,
> a shark in a vat of formaldehyde has very little in common with Icons
> glorying God. Both were called Art in their time.
>
> Does one call the Egyptian tomb murals Art? I wonder if the ancient
> Egyptians called them Art, or merely saw them as records of events
> (past or future). Likewise the friezes on the Parthenon, were these
> seen as Art?
>
> Art certainly does not have to be beautiful, I love Hieronymus Bosch,
> but would hesitate to call his stuff "beautiful", likewise John
> Bellany's bird women. They're definitely Art though. Equally Monet's
> water Lily's are definitely beautiful, but rather too boring (in this
> jaded time) for me to like them.
>
> So, since the definition of Art is so mutable stop trying to tell
> people that this or that isn't art.
>
> Robert
>
>>>
>>>
>> But they are not Artists and don't attempt to portray themselves as such=
.
>> The amount of money you get doesn't make it art. Look at Van Gogh or any
>> of
>> the street artists.
>>
>> --
>> Randall in Atlanta
>> http://wrandallmoody.com/home.html
Larry Kruzan on sun 18 jul 10
Hi Robert,
I think that the call is not so much to define art - for that has no clear
boundaries - but rather to define and certify craftspersons who are capable
of producing well made items of ANY description.
In art school I saw "art" that was conceptually good but was so poorly
produced it never made it trip from school to home. That is what I want to
see set apart as inadequate, undeserving consideration. Calling it art is n=
o
excuse Poor craft, but many schools do not teach from this perspective.
I that this is what is sought here.
To identify those with skill from the clumsy person who just bought a wheel
and thinks that every piece is a masterpiece, all 10 of them.
A call to craftsmanship, not unlike the one a century ago, and recognition
of those who pursue it well.
Larry Kruzan
Lost Creek Pottery
www.lostcreekpottery.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Robert Harris
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 11:35 AM
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Standards (was Pricing. Can we talk?)
What in the hell defines Art? Of course the amount of money you get
for something doesn't definine it as Art, but personally I have a real
problem with anyone trying to define Art period.
I think that trying to state that "This is art and that isn't" is a
completely bogus, self-important and most significantly completely
subjective exercise.
Personally I feel that the definition of Art has changed dramatically
over the years, which is proof that it is undefinable. Let's face it,
a shark in a vat of formaldehyde has very little in common with Icons
glorying God. Both were called Art in their time.
Does one call the Egyptian tomb murals Art? I wonder if the ancient
Egyptians called them Art, or merely saw them as records of events
(past or future). Likewise the friezes on the Parthenon, were these
seen as Art?
Art certainly does not have to be beautiful, I love Hieronymus Bosch,
but would hesitate to call his stuff "beautiful", likewise John
Bellany's bird women. They're definitely Art though. Equally Monet's
water Lily's are definitely beautiful, but rather too boring (in this
jaded time) for me to like them.
So, since the definition of Art is so mutable stop trying to tell
people that this or that isn't art.
Robert
>>
>>
> But they are not Artists and don't attempt to portray themselves as such.
> The amount of money you get doesn't make it art. Look at Van Gogh or any
of
> the street artists.
>
> --
> Randall in Atlanta
> http://wrandallmoody.com/home.html
>
--
----------------------------------------------------------
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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Lis Allison on sun 18 jul 10
On July 17, 2010, Robert Harris wrote:
> What in the hell defines Art? ....
Your post made me chuckle, Robert!
I have come to the conclusion, after a lifetime of being involved with Art
in various forms (father a violinist, brother a writer, me wanting to
paint, photograph, make pots.... most of my friends over the years artists
of some sort....), that it is Art if the maker says it is.
In other words, the maker decides that it is Art. It might be bad Art, it
might be good Art, but it is Art because he says so.
It is the intention that makes it Art.
Lis
--
Elisabeth Allison
Pine Ridge Studio
website: www.pine-ridge.ca
Pottery blog: www.studio-on-the-ridge.blogspot.com
Garden blog: www.garden-on-the-ridge.blogspot.com
James Freeman on sun 18 jul 10
On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 5:41 PM, phil wrote:
> Now, the term 'Art' is applied to anything which can arouse low emotion
> merely, or any emotion merely and the more superficial and depthless, the
> better...so long as some context defines the presentation for distinguish=
=3D
ing
> it from mere vomit on a sidewalk or other misfortune.
>
I may have related this story before, and if so, I apologize.
When my kids were very young, probably 8 and 10 years of age, we went
to Nashville, Indiana to spend the day perusing the downtown
collection of wonderfully odd little shops (and buying lots of pottery
and glass that we didn't need). At one point, our youngest was
standing transfixed, just staring at the ground. As I walked over to
where he was standing, I could see a huge pile of accumulated bird
guano. It must have been directly below a favorite perching spot, as
it was obviously the collaborative work of literally thousands of
birds. He looked up at me, and in the most innocent voice said "The
last time I saw this big a pile of crap, we were in a gallery." Kids
have the bad habit of being brutally honest in their assessments.
On another occasion, we were attending an exhibition at the Toledo
Museum of Art, at which I had some work. We came upon the two of them
standing near the front of the gallery carrying on an animated
discussion of the artistic merits of the thermostat on the gallery
wall, as though it were one of the entries, complete with a child's
version of over-the-top artspeak. A number of other gallery goers
were nearby, and one could see them biting their lips and trying to
stifle their laughter. I think perhaps we took them to too many art
events when they were young!
BTW, Phil, great observation about the devolution of art (or perhaps
more non-judgmentally, the "change") coinciding with the word "art"
becoming a noun rather than an adjective.
All the best.
...James
James Freeman
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice.=3DA0 I
should not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
phil on sun 18 jul 10
Lets not forget Miss America Standards -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D4XL7cHpQwHY&feature=3Drelated
She'll probably end up being a Senator.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Kruzan"
To:
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: Standards (was Pricing. Can we talk?)
A couple have said that we don't want to be compared to plumbers and such -
have you hired a plumber lately????? $75 a hour is not to bad a living.
Larry Kruzan
Lost Creek Pottery
www.lostcreekpottery.com
Larry Kruzan on sun 18 jul 10
My ribs are hurting=3D21=3D21=3D21=3D21 I had not seen that from you and ne=
eded a =3D
good laugh
today James, thank you. I hope your son has grown into a man that can be
just as honest with himself - and others.
I'd hate to sit and be critiqued by him, but it just might be the most
instructive critique I have ever had too.
Best wishes to all your family,
Larry Kruzan
Lost Creek Pottery
www.lostcreekpottery.com
=3D20
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart =3D5Bmailto:Clayart=3D40LSV.CERAMICS.ORG=3D5D On Behalf Of Ja=
mes =3D
Freeman
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 8:27 AM
To: Clayart=3D40LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Standards (was Pricing. Can we talk?)
On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 5:41 PM, phil wrote:
> Now, the term 'Art' is applied to anything which can arouse low emotion
> merely, or any emotion merely and the more superficial and depthless, the
> better...so long as some context defines the presentation for
distinguishing
> it from mere vomit on a sidewalk or other misfortune.
>
I may have related this story before, and if so, I apologize.
When my kids were very young, probably 8 and 10 years of age, we went
to Nashville, Indiana to spend the day perusing the downtown
collection of wonderfully odd little shops (and buying lots of pottery
and glass that we didn't need). At one point, our youngest was
standing transfixed, just staring at the ground. As I walked over to
where he was standing, I could see a huge pile of accumulated bird
guano. It must have been directly below a favorite perching spot, as
it was obviously the collaborative work of literally thousands of
birds. He looked up at me, and in the most innocent voice said =3D22The
last time I saw this big a pile of crap, we were in a gallery.=3D22 Kids
have the bad habit of being brutally honest in their assessments.
On another occasion, we were attending an exhibition at the Toledo
Museum of Art, at which I had some work. We came upon the two of them
standing near the front of the gallery carrying on an animated
discussion of the artistic merits of the thermostat on the gallery
wall, as though it were one of the entries, complete with a child's
version of over-the-top artspeak. A number of other gallery goers
were nearby, and one could see them biting their lips and trying to
stifle their laughter. I think perhaps we took them to too many art
events when they were young=3D21
BTW, Phil, great observation about the devolution of art (or perhaps
more non-judgmentally, the =3D22change=3D22) coinciding with the word =3D22=
art=3D22
becoming a noun rather than an adjective.
All the best.
=3D2E...James
James Freeman
=3D22All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice.=3DA0 I
should not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed.=3D22
-Michel de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D
Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
(Email Guard: 7.0.0.18, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.15450)
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=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D
James Freeman on sun 18 jul 10
On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 11:13 AM, Larry Kruzan w=
=3D
rote:
>
> I think that the call is not so much to define art - for that has no clea=
=3D
r
> boundaries - but rather to define and certify craftspersons who are capab=
=3D
le
> of producing well made items of ANY description.
>
...snip....
>
> To identify those with skill from the clumsy person who just bought a whe=
=3D
el
> and thinks that every piece is a masterpiece, all 10 of them.
>
Larry, et alii...
With all due respect, I don't think that is the issue at all. Lousy
or clumsy craftsmanship is readily discernible, so should not present
any issues.
Rather, the area of contention seems to be with apparently well
crafted pieces, but with hidden flaws or shortcomings not readily
discernible by the lay public. For example, two well made and good
looking casserole dishes by two different potters, but one of which
contains too much cristobalite, so could break in the oven. Or two
nicely glazed pieces, but one of which has the potential to leach
copper. Or two beautiful mugs, but one of which is not fully
vitrified. Or two lovely bowls, but one of which was glazed with
ingredients that someone decides they don't like.
The problem, of course, is that every firing we do, no matter how
masterful we believe we are, will be different. This means that our
certified potter needs to submit samples from various positions in
EVERY kiln load for testing before that work can be sold. Statistical
sampling, like that done in industry, does not even work very well
under tightly controlled and regulated industrial conditions, and
would fail utterly under our own very random studio conditions.
The standards would necessitate that every potter submit glaze samples
for leach testing for every glaze and for each kiln load. Since every
firing is different, and since studio kilns do not fire terribly
evenly, a glaze may meet standards on one shelf, but not another, or
in the load you fired last week, but not this week's firing. Further,
just because Billy Joe down the street tested it and had it pass, the
same glaze may certainly fail on your clay, using your materials, and
in your kiln.
And what will the standards say about crazed glazes? Half the list
will say that crazed glazes are never functional because the craze
lines are bigger that a bacterium, while the other half will say that
crazed glazes have been used functionally for millenia with nary a
casualty, so are obviously safe. Half the list will say that the
crazed glaze weakens the pot, while the other half will say that even
if true, the pot is obviously still strong enough, as crazed pots have
survived hundreds and possibly thousands of years.
Any standard you propose will be countered with a dozen different
special cases or what ifs. This will force what should have been a
one or two sentence standard for a given form or aspect to grow
exponentially into it's own chapter. Multiply this by the
fantastically large number of forms or instances which you need to
cover, and your simple set of rules grows into an unwieldy,
inscrutable, self-contradictory mess that opens more loopholes than it
closes and creates more problems than it solves. Look at our own set
of laws, or "standards" of conduct. What started out with just ten
commandments and a handful of first principles has grown into a
convoluted mess that fills entire libraries.
These are just a few examples, and there are a gazillion more
(precisely one gazillion; I counted). As is often the case, what
sounds good on paper is simply not possible or practical, nor possibly
even desirable to implement. To borrow Eleanor's Francis Bacon
quotation, ".... philosophers lay down many precepts fair in argument
but not applicable in use." I am reminded of another old saying, "Be
careful what you wish for, as you just might get it."
Ultimately, the only way to assure quality is to test EVERY piece
prior to sale. Anything short of this amounts to nothing more than
assumptions and statistics, so that now rather than arguing over
quality, we are just arguing over degrees of certainty, probabilities
concerning the quality of our wares. We are then left with a question
that can only be answered by fiat or mob rule: What probability of
quality is good enough to be certified as "quality"?
Just some stuff to think about.
...James
James Freeman
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice.=3DA0 I
should not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
Clyde Tullis on mon 19 jul 10
On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 7:55 PM, Terrance wrote:
> Many believe that they are "Master
> potters." =3DA0Yet they have only fired in electric, never fired a gas or=
=3D
a wood
> kiln. =3DA0Some have only fired wood and know nothing about electric.
> A "Master" would have to have a full range of the profession.
Why? Is Yo-Yo Ma not a master musician because he can't also play the
slide trombone?
How much electric firing did Bernard Leach do? Or Soji Hamada? Should I
make a list? I'm afraid that Thelonious Monk and Pablo Picasso, Jimi
Hendrix, Bob Dylan............ will be included. In this group. Focus on=
=3D
what you can do!!
> I have been asked many times what constitutes a master potter and I hav=
=3D
e
> had a hard time trying to come up with a good description. =3DA0Yet I hea=
=3D
r the
> expression many times.
Good skills, and a lot of chutzpah.
> Establishing a standard where potters and artists could aspire in order=
=3D
to be
> titled "Master=3D94 would go a long way in helping society to identify gr=
=3D
eat
potters
> and ceramicists.
Couldn't society just look at their pots?
> Those who want to be called artists can continue with that title. =3DA0Bu=
=3D
t they
> might just realize that accreditation could give them the boost in sale=
=3D
s that
> will allow them to continue to pay their art addiction.=3D20=3D20
Many people think that Hanada and Picasso suck
Master Craftsman - in Japan?
Major influenses in the western world
How could this possibly be so? It is great art because major
galleries, museums, and collectors say it is. Why would they listen
to some board?
=3D20
...James
James Freeman
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice. I
should not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne
Randall Moody on mon 19 jul 10
On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 4:14 PM, Larry Kruzan wro=
=3D
te:
> Perhaps they shun the title of =3D93artist=3D94 for the same reason tha=
t so=3D
many
> craftsmen do =3D96 the inherent snobbery that seems to permeate the class=
t=3D
hat
> only sees =3D93paintings=3D94 as =3D93Fine Art=3D94 =3D96 They just want =
to get the=3D
job done,
> and done well. However to claim that their work is not artistic because t=
=3D
hey
> do not wear the title as a badge of honor denies fact. Many craftsmen I k=
=3D
now
> do not claim to be artists (myself included) but that does not mean that =
=3D
our
> work cannot be art.
>
>
At no point in this conversation have I said that there is nothing
"artistic" in what they do. What I have said is they do not promote
themselves as Artists nor do they promote what they do as Art. They also
don't lament being marginalized by the greater Art community. I feel that I
am chasing my tail with this conversation when things that have not been
said are being argued. I am done.
I will reserve the right to scoff at anyone who attempts to certify what is
or is not art.
--=3D20
Randall in Atlanta
http://wrandallmoody.com/home.html
Larry Kruzan on mon 19 jul 10
Perhaps they shun the title of "artist" for the same reason that so many
craftsmen do - the inherent snobbery that seems to permeate the class that
only sees "paintings" as "Fine Art" - They just want to get the job done,
and done well. However to claim that their work is not artistic because the=
y
do not wear the title as a badge of honor denies fact. Many craftsmen I kno=
w
do not claim to be artists (myself included) but that does not mean that ou=
r
work cannot be art.
I never said that their pay has anything to do with being artists. The best
command higher prices, as is true with any craftsman. Higher wages, for som=
e
reason is often seen as a delineator that separates art from craft. With
those who work for an hourly wage judged as craftsmen and those who make a
single work that they price for mega bucks labeled as "Artist". It just
might work out as the same hourly wage, but that is the dichotomy of this
discussion.
I note that you refer to the Plumbing Schematic as "possible" art - flat ar=
t
again wins in your mind over the guy with the pipe wrenches and welders
torch, the guy who actually makes things work - who could only be a "Red
Shirt", just there for a paycheck.
I prefer to see art in all that is. I see the art in the object and the
artist in the maker. The title that the maker bares is of no consequence, i=
t
is the final work that matters. Whatever moved the soul to create is of
little matter - even if it is a paycheck - it is how the soul is moved in
those who partake in the finished product.
Larry Kruzan
Lost Creek Pottery
www.lostcreekpottery.com
From: Randall Moody [mailto:randall.moody@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 2:47 PM
To: Larry Kruzan
Cc: Clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
Subject: Re: Standards (was Pricing. Can we talk?)
Notice the distinction that I made. I never said that you couldn't find art
in a well designed plumbing schematic etc. I said that they are not Artists
and do not present themselves as such. Also, the implication that they are
artists because they charge X amount of dollars per hour is a red herring.
--
Randall in Atlanta
http://wrandallmoody.com/home.html
On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:35 PM, Larry Kruzan
wrote:
I would humbly disagree that plumbers, electricians and such cannot be
artists. A clumsy plumber will make your life miserable for decades whereas
one who is a total craftsman (and artist) will make you life wonderful. A
plumber that approaches his job in a creative manner can solve problems
without carving into supporting structure - the other type will be cutting
everywhere and be sawing the foundation out from under your bed.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
(Email Guard: 7.0.0.18, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.15460)
http://www.pctools.com/
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Randall Moody on mon 19 jul 10
Notice the distinction that I made. I never said that you couldn't find art
in a well designed plumbing schematic etc. I said that they are not Artists
and do not present themselves as such. Also, the implication that they are
artists because they charge X amount of dollars per hour is a red herring.
--=3D20
Randall in Atlanta
http://wrandallmoody.com/home.html
On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:35 PM, Larry Kruzan wr=
=3D
ote:
> I would humbly disagree that plumbers, electricians and such cannot be
> artists. A clumsy plumber will make your life miserable for decades where=
=3D
as
> one who is a total craftsman (and artist) will make you life wonderful. A
> plumber that approaches his job in a creative manner can solve problems
> without carving into supporting structure =3D96 the other type will be cu=
tt=3D
ing
> everywhere and be sawing the foundation out from under your bed.
>
>
Kathy Forer on mon 19 jul 10
On Jul 16, 2010, at 9:06 PM, Ron Roy wrote:
> All I have ever said is - if your pots are not good for some things - say=
s=3D
o.
>=3D20
> If you your pots can be used in a microwave oven and in a dish washer - s=
a=3D
y so.
>=3D20
> There is nothing complicated about this - tell the truth!
As a non-ceramist I approach a display of pottery with a mix of interest an=
d=3D
trepidation. I'd like to go with my gut and get stuff I simply like, color=
s=3D
and forms that resonate.=3D20
But I've been burned. Mugs that got too hot in the microwave, beautiful bow=
l=3D
s that turned out to be leaching into my breakfast cereal for years. Plates=
t=3D
hat turn spidery-brownish in the dishwasher (are they absorbing water?), bo=
w=3D
ls that seep unknown oily liquid that hardens in the oven.=3D20
I'm not a particularly educated or experienced pottery consumer but Clayart=
h=3D
as given me many things to think about.=3D20
Instead of standards for makers, I'd like to see guidelines for buyers. An =
e=3D
ducation campaign of what to look for, ask about and what to ignore when. P=
e=3D
rhaps it could be a simple Clayart checklist; on a placard at a booth and a=
v=3D
ailable as a tear-sheet. =3D20
=3DC5=3DB8
Kathy Forer
www.kforer.com
Terrance on mon 19 jul 10
James you write;
The problem, of course, is that every firing we do, no matter how masterf=
=3D
ul we=3D20
believe we are, will be different. This means that our certified potter =
=3D
needs to=3D20
submit samples from various positions in EVERY kiln load for testing befo=
=3D
re that=3D20
work can be sold. Statistical sampling, like that done in industry, does=
=3D
not=3D20
even work very well under tightly controlled and regulated industrial=3D20
conditions, and would fail utterly under our own very random studio condi=
=3D
tions.
You are right.=3D20=3D20
I don't believe one could ever organize a certification program sufficien=
=3D
t to=3D20
meet all the demands of the pottery tradition to ensure decent standards =
=3D
are=3D20
met. One could be certified as a potter and still produce a bad pot.=3D20
Certification in your definition would not be possible but what if we wer=
=3D
e to=3D20
change the title of the activity to "Pottery Professionalism certificatio=
=3D
n."
What we would be certifying would be the professionalism of the individua=
=3D
l who=3D20
wants to be a potter.=3D20
Striving to create a greater degree of professionalism amongst the potter=
=3D
y=3D20
community would be a definite bonus for the community because it would=3D20=
=3D
ensure anyone who is certified has at least acquired a degree of knowledg=
=3D
e=3D20
history and craftsmanship. I am not talking about standards. That is t=
=3D
he job=3D20
for other organizations. Professionalism however can be a program us ful=
=3D
l to=3D20
all.
The object would be to train, educate, and to identify potters who not on=
=3D
ly=3D20
work in their own tradition but who are willing to go out and learn other=
=3D
=3D20
methods of pottery. We would be adding to the knowledge gained through=3D2=
0=3D
apprentices, university programs, craft colleges, leisure courses and the=
=3D
self-
taught potter.
Such a program could be set up in such a way that it would include knowle=
=3D
dge=3D20
examinations, hand on workshops, mentoring, and self-recognition. A=3D20
professional certification could be set up in levels so that the individu=
=3D
als would=3D20
see where they have come from and can plan where they wish to go. It wou=
=3D
ld=3D20
not have to be completed all at once but would be an ongoing process that=
=3D
=3D20
would a part of the life of the potter, ceramicist or clay artist.
There are many models that already exist that could be the foundation for=
=3D
=3D20
such a program.
Will it make better potters out of the participants? I can't say.
What I care about, is the guy who has been potting for about four years=3D2=
0=3D
telling newspaper that he is a "Master" when he has not studied any proce=
=3D
ss=3D20
other than his basic pottery course. I see potters making bad pots witho=
=3D
ut=3D20
realizing that they could cause damage to the users. I think about the g=
=3D
uy=3D20
that comes charging into my ceramic community, working for a few years=3D20=
=3D
claiming to be a professional potter and then quitting because the money =
=3D
is=3D20
not enough. Professionalism requires dedication. I have seen a lot of f=
=3D
ly-by-
night potters during the past 25 years of clay. I have also seen potters=
=3D
who=3D20
have done the same objects for twenty five years claim to be "Master=3D20
potters." I have seen some potters show that same photo for ten to fifte=
=3D
en=3D20
years, never changing or trying something new. Professionalism means try=
=3D
ing=3D20
new ideas, new procedures and experimenting for the betterment of the cra=
=3D
ft.
Recently I went to NECEA and I met some potters who may not throw the=3D20
great forms of others but they have experimented with new glazes and surf=
=3D
ace=3D20
finishes. I have seen some potters who would never get juried into a maj=
=3D
or=3D20
show, put out great work on a table in the hotel lounge. Then there were=
=3D
=3D20
those who worked without recompense to make a strong community that is=3D20=
=3D
connected. There are other ways to be professional than just throwing a=3D=
20=3D
great form. I could go on in this discussion but I don=3D92t want to tir=
=3D
e the=3D20
reader.
All of these ideas could be a part of the professionalism certification p=
=3D
rocess.=3D20=3D20
Finally, if a decent process to establish professionalism criteria was pr=
=3D
oduced I=3D20
am sure it would gain many merit points for the guy who may not have been=
=3D
=3D20
formally trained in some master=3D92s program, should he apply for a teachi=
=3D
ng=3D20
position in the local college.
Food for thought.
Terrance
phil on mon 19 jul 10
Hi Kathy, all...
If I was a practicing Potter, I would have hang Tags saying "NO Dishwasher,
NO God Damned 'microwave', and NO Ovens"
Lol...
For Pete's sake, don't do it...
Why in the heck would anyone even USE a 'dishwasher' instead of just Washin=
g
Dishes???
Why after all the decades of info on how damaging to the food and to you an=
d
to everything, why would anyone even use, let alone continue to use a
'microwave'???? For anything, let alone anything so innane?
Why ever put a Ceramic Pot into an Oven???? Unless it is expressly made TO
be used that way?
Why not use your Car as a 'Canoe'? Then complain about how it did not float
good enough to suit the demand so placed on it?
How can this stuff not be self evident?
Let alone, all the rest?
"Horror"
Love,
Phil
Lv
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kathy Forer"
On Jul 16, 2010, at 9:06 PM, Ron Roy wrote:
> All I have ever said is - if your pots are not good for some things - say
> so.
>
> If you your pots can be used in a microwave oven and in a dish washer -
> say so.
>
> There is nothing complicated about this - tell the truth!
As a non-ceramist I approach a display of pottery with a mix of interest an=
d
trepidation. I'd like to go with my gut and get stuff I simply like, colors
and forms that resonate.
But I've been burned. Mugs that got too hot in the microwave, beautiful
bowls that turned out to be leaching into my breakfast cereal for years.
Plates that turn spidery-brownish in the dishwasher (are they absorbing
water?), bowls that seep unknown oily liquid that hardens in the oven.
I'm not a particularly educated or experienced pottery consumer but Clayart
has given me many things to think about.
Instead of standards for makers, I'd like to see guidelines for buyers. An
education campaign of what to look for, ask about and what to ignore when.
Perhaps it could be a simple Clayart checklist; on a placard at a booth and
available as a tear-sheet.
=C5=B8
Kathy Forer
www.kforer.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
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23:36:00
Lee Love on mon 19 jul 10
> James you write;
>> The problem, of course, is that every firing we do, no matter how master=
=3D
ful we
>> believe we are, will be different.
On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Terrance wrote:
> You are right.
So, maybe it is more important to follow the "garbage in, garbage
out" prescription: If your materials are safe before they are fired,
they they are safe after they are fired. Crazing becomes an asthetic
problem (like it has been for most of history around the planet.)
Problem solved.
.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
paul gerhold on tue 20 jul 10
Dear Phil,
People use dishwashers because the are less effort than washing by hand,
result in better sanitation , and are more energy efficient.
Microwaves are more energy efficient for reheating food. They also cook
some fresh vegetables better (flavor and nutrition) than boiling. Now, if
you eat all your veggies raw you are better off, other than salmonella and
fecal bacteria and a few other health concerns.
Paul
Lee Love on tue 20 jul 10
On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 8:27 AM, Robert Harris wr=
=3D
ote:
> I certainly understand what you are getting at (an am being somewhat
> facetious) but generalised rules like this can always trip you up.
It is really a no brainer. We can quibble about angels
on a pinhead. But craftsmen understand.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
Robert Harris on tue 20 jul 10
Powdered Silica is not exactly "safe" before it is used. It may not be
toxic per se but it is not safe.
Equally many of the oxides we use might be considered marginally
toxic, but are certainly safe when tied up as glass.
I certainly understand what you are getting at (an am being somewhat
facetious) but generalised rules like this can always trip you up.
R
On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 11:06 PM, Lee Love wrote:
>> James you write;
>>> The problem, of course, is that every firing we do, no matter how maste=
=3D
rful we
>>> believe we are, will be different.
>
> On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Terrance wrote:
>
>> You are right.
>
> =3DA0 =3DA0So, maybe it is more important to follow the "garbage in, garb=
age
> out" prescription: =3DA0 If your materials are safe before they are fired=
,
> they they are safe after they are fired. =3DA0 Crazing becomes an astheti=
c
> problem (like it has been for most of history around the planet.)
> Problem solved.
> .
> --
> =3DA0Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
> http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
>
> =3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
> the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
>
--=3D20
----------------------------------------------------------
Larry Kruzan on tue 20 jul 10
Come on Phil - we got to give the masses what they want, dishwashers, =3D
microwaves, ovens and even FM radio.....civilization, of a sort. Beats =3D
sitting on a log, roasting a rabbit over a open fire on a stick - some =3D
days.......
Larry
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart =3D5Bmailto:Clayart=3D40LSV.CERAMICS.ORG=3D5D On Behalf Of ph=
il
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 10:34 PM
To: Clayart=3D40LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Standards (was Pricing. Can we talk?)
Hi Kathy, all...
If I was a practicing Potter, I would have hang Tags saying =3D22NO =3D
Dishwasher,
NO God Damned 'microwave', and NO Ovens=3D22
Lol...
For Pete's sake, don't do it...
Why in the heck would anyone even USE a 'dishwasher' instead of just Washin=
g
Dishes???
Why after all the decades of info on how damaging to the food and to you an=
d
to everything, why would anyone even use, let alone continue to use a
'microwave'???? For anything, let alone anything so innane?
Why ever put a Ceramic Pot into an Oven???? Unless it is expressly made TO
be used that way?
Why not use your Car as a 'Canoe'? Then complain about how it did not float
good enough to suit the demand so placed on it?
How can this stuff not be self evident?
Let alone, all the rest?
=3D22Horror=3D22
Love,
Phil
Lv
----- Original Message -----
From: =3D22Kathy Forer=3D22
On Jul 16, 2010, at 9:06 PM, Ron Roy wrote:
> All I have ever said is - if your pots are not good for some things - say
> so.
>
> If you your pots can be used in a microwave oven and in a dish washer -
> say so.
>
> There is nothing complicated about this - tell the truth=3D21
As a non-ceramist I approach a display of pottery with a mix of interest an=
d
trepidation. I'd like to go with my gut and get stuff I simply like, colors
and forms that resonate.
But I've been burned. Mugs that got too hot in the microwave, beautiful
bowls that turned out to be leaching into my breakfast cereal for years.
Plates that turn spidery-brownish in the dishwasher (are they absorbing
water?), bowls that seep unknown oily liquid that hardens in the oven.
I'm not a particularly educated or experienced pottery consumer but Clayart
has given me many things to think about.
Instead of standards for makers, I'd like to see guidelines for buyers. An
education campaign of what to look for, ask about and what to ignore when.
Perhaps it could be a simple Clayart checklist; on a placard at a booth and
available as a tear-sheet.
=3DC5=3DB8
Kathy Forer
www.kforer.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
=3D
-----
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23:36:00
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D
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phil on tue 20 jul 10
Hi Chris,
Below...amid...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dana & Chris Trabka"
> Phil,
>
> There is one reason to use a dishwasher. In the sink you add soap.
In the Sink you add Soap.
> The
> surface becomes a wee bit more slick.
The surface becomes a wee bit more slick.
> If you rinse your dishes for the
> dishwasher, generally no soap is used.
Yes...best let them sit for days on the coffeetable, countertops,.
nightstand, livingroom floor, etc, and dessicate to where the remaining
Cereal in-the-Bowls, with the Milk residu, becomes a hard glue-like
impervious mass...and do as best one can with other things, also....Lasagne=
,
whatever...let 'em harden up good, real good...been to many homes where I
have seen it done...
> Thus the difference between a
> dishwasher and hand washed is the chance of having the dish slip out of
> our
> hands.
...the chance of having a Dish slip out of one's hands.
> When a customer asks about using a dishwasher, I respond that the
> dishes are safer in the dishwasher in that they are not dropped (rarely
> does
> a ceramic object "bounce" well).
>
> Chris
I do not know where to begin...
Love,
Phil
Lv
Robert Harris on tue 20 jul 10
Actually lightly cooked vegetables are better for you than raw
vegetables. This is because our guts' cannot break through intact cell
walls. The cooking breaks open these cell walls and allows us to
digest the goodies inside. Obviously if they've been cooked to death
then you destroy many of the more labile nutrients, but steaming (or
microwaving them) for a few minutes is actually better than raw. I can
probably find the scientific articles if you need proof!
R
On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 11:46 AM, paul gerhold w=
=3D
rote:
> Dear Phil,
>
> People use dishwashers because the are less effort than washing by hand,
> result in better sanitation , and are more energy efficient.
>
> Microwaves are more energy efficient for reheating food. =3DA0They also c=
oo=3D
k
> some fresh vegetables better (flavor and nutrition) than boiling. =3DA0No=
w,=3D
if
> you eat all your veggies raw you are better off, =3DA0other than salmonel=
la=3D
and
> fecal bacteria and a few other health concerns.
>
> Paul
>
--=3D20
----------------------------------------------------------
figglywig@COMCAST.NET on tue 20 jul 10
Because, Phil -
I have better things to do than wash dishes manually, heat up food very slo=
wly when I don't have time, or go slap my clothes on the rocks in the river=
! I love ya, but you have to understand that not everyone is stuck in the d=
istant past. Technology, good. Grunt, grunt.
Gail, who knows you use a computer and that you have a website - 'why don't=
cha just post handbills around the whole country to sell tools?!'
Phil wrote:
If I was a practicing Potter, I would have hang Tags saying "NO Dishwasher,
NO God Damned 'microwave', and NO Ovens"
Lol...
For Pete's sake, don't do it...
Why in the heck would anyone even USE a 'dishwasher' instead of just Washin=
g
Dishes???
Why after all the decades of info on how damaging to the food and to you an=
d
to everything, why would anyone even use, let alone continue to use a
'microwave'???? For anything, let alone anything so innane?
Mea Rhee on wed 21 jul 10
James wrote:
"The real problem here seems to be not one of malice, but rather one of p=
=3D
otters just not=3D20
knowing all of these functional requirements."
=3D46rom a business perspective, I've learned that these potters do not hav=
=3D
e any affect on the=3D20
real potters who are trying hard to get it right.=3D20
You can't run a successful pottery business if people will only buy your =
=3D
pots once.=3D20
People who will buy handmade pottery are generally not inclined to assume=
=3D
that all potters=3D20
have the same level of knowledge.
People who will lump all handmade pottery together as "unsafe" are not yo=
=3D
ur customers=3D20
anyways.
To those of you who are doing right, and making sure your customers know =
=3D
it, don't worry=3D20
about it!
-Mea
phil on wed 21 jul 10
Hi Larry, all...
The times I have been around 'dishwashers' in people's Homes...
Seems like when running they are always noisy and obnoxious, wooshing and
chugging and wanging things...the people have many things break during the
'cycles' as time goes bye...unless virtually washed well first, things come
out with dried food stuff still on them...Glasses get broken...ugly 'water
spots' on things, endless hassles...leaks, seepages, rotting subfloors,
cascading outflowing of 'suds' all over the Kitchen Floor...'warranties'...
I have never seen one instance of anyone using a 'dishwasher' where with
less effort and time, all the same Dishes and whatnot could not have been
done better, in-a-Sink, by 'Hand'...and with a lot less Water and a lot les=
s
'Soap' ( detergent really in 'dishwashers', not even Soap...)
People, after a Meal, even after a Meal in the Dining Room, guests or
family, used to return to the Kitchen talking, doing Dishes, drying them,
others having a second slice of Pie...have-a-Beer or a Shot, or just sittin=
g
and conversing having Coffee...Smoking, sociable, easy, wholesome.
Can't do that with some obnoxious loud 'dishwasher' thumping and wanging
along.
Kitchens are generally 'dead' places now...dead energy, dead amenity, dead
viods of nothing...stupid throw-away appliances...dominated by crappy built
in fake
finish 'cabinets', yuck.
Used to be the 'Heart' of a Home.
I miss visiting my aunts in the 1950s and early 1960s...any of them, simila=
r
Kitchens, all set up in the early to mid to latter 1920s when they'd got
married, and nothing re-done. Last one I visited in 1977, her Kitchen was
still "1925" to a 'tee'...nothing had changed, everything lovely, airy, 50
years of boiling Cabbages for Halupki and endless else...they all Baked
fresh Bread every day till they were old.
Patterned Oil Cloth Thumbtacked to the Kitchen Table top...Big 'Detroit
Jewell 6 Burner and Two Oven Stove in knee high Queen Anne revival sort of
Legs, and you lit the Burners or Ovens with-a-Match...embroidered Hand
Towell folded
longwise draped over the front Gas Plemun between the White Porcelain
Petcocks...Celing Light fixture with the screw in 'Plug' option for when
Ironing...Matchwork Wainscoting...Pine Floors...BIG GE 'Monitor Top'
Refrigerator with the foot pedal for when you had your Hands full...Faux
'Oriental' Pattern Linoleum 'Throw' runners in the Hall and along where one
would stand at the Stove and at the Sink...real Cabinets and fixtures,
nothing 'built in'...
Sink three feet long and 18 inches wide and five inches deep Porcelainized
Cast Iron...set into a Heavy Table with a Curtain across the front...high
placed Water Taps and high Spout on a swivel...
"Perfect"...sublime...what 'presence' in every way...'Magic'...absolute
dignity...tall Ceiling...
I visit people, see their Kitchens, and I could weep...nothing 'there', no
energy, no 'magic'...everything 'dead'...everything stupid, indifferent, no
substance, no anything...everything throw-away, tinny indifferent nothing
appliances, silly soppy details...horrid 'woodwork', silly countertops,
bad...
If 'Civilization' forgets how to be 'Magic', if endless individuals
personally forsake it for nothing of value but harried compromise and
perfunctory
'means to an end' ( what is the end'? or did it already happen? ) with what
shall it console itself?
More of the same?
There is only 'Magic', or 'death'...and it is all the difference in the
World.
...sigh...
Well...once on my own and grown up...I had a fine Kitchen of my
own...smaller, but, same Charm School...assembled the hard way.
It too was a 'Heart'...
I did a lot of Cooking in it.
Disbanded now, scattered to the Winds to facillitate the big 'move' ( I kep=
t
my Porcelainized Cast Iron 1923 Sink...3 feet long, 20 inches wide, five
inches deep...since those are now one helluva beehatch to find ) to I still
know not where...but, once there, I will begin anew, and have a nice Kitche=
n
again, and bake Pies, and Wash Dishes and smoke Cigarettes and have the ash
fall off into the Sink as I do the Dishes, and have things
nice..and Thumbtack Oilcloth onto the Table top edges.
And, light the Stove...with-a-Match.
May as well...
One can do worse...
...and Devil take the Hindermost...as if he has not already...
Lol...
Love,
Phil
Lv
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Kruzan"
Come on Phil - we got to give the masses what they want, dishwashers,
microwaves, ovens and even FM radio.....civilization, of a sort. Beats
sitting on a log, roasting a rabbit over a open fire on a stick - some
days.......
Larry
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of phil
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 10:34 PM
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Standards (was Pricing. Can we talk?)
Hi Kathy, all...
If I was a practicing Potter, I would have hang Tags saying "NO Dishwasher,
NO God Damned 'microwave', and NO Ovens"
Lol...
For Pete's sake, don't do it...
Why in the heck would anyone even USE a 'dishwasher' instead of just Washin=
g
Dishes???
Why after all the decades of info on how damaging to the food and to you an=
d
to everything, why would anyone even use, let alone continue to use a
'microwave'???? For anything, let alone anything so innane?
Why ever put a Ceramic Pot into an Oven???? Unless it is expressly made TO
be used that way?
Why not use your Car as a 'Canoe'? Then complain about how it did not float
good enough to suit the demand so placed on it?
How can this stuff not be self evident?
Let alone, all the rest?
"Horror"
Love,
Phil
Lv
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kathy Forer"
On Jul 16, 2010, at 9:06 PM, Ron Roy wrote:
> All I have ever said is - if your pots are not good for some things - say
> so.
>
> If you your pots can be used in a microwave oven and in a dish washer -
> say so.
>
> There is nothing complicated about this - tell the truth!
As a non-ceramist I approach a display of pottery with a mix of interest an=
d
trepidation. I'd like to go with my gut and get stuff I simply like, colors
and forms that resonate.
But I've been burned. Mugs that got too hot in the microwave, beautiful
bowls that turned out to be leaching into my breakfast cereal for years.
Plates that turn spidery-brownish in the dishwasher (are they absorbing
water?), bowls that seep unknown oily liquid that hardens in the oven.
I'm not a particularly educated or experienced pottery consumer but Clayart
has given me many things to think about.
Instead of standards for makers, I'd like to see guidelines for buyers. An
education campaign of what to look for, ask about and what to ignore when.
Perhaps it could be a simple Clayart checklist; on a placard at a booth and
available as a tear-sheet.
=C5=B8
Kathy Forer
www.kforer.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.839 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3015 - Release Date: 07/18/10
23:36:00
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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Version: 9.0.839 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3016 - Release Date: 07/19/10
11:36:00
phil on wed 21 jul 10
Hi Gail,=3D20
No...you mis-interpreted the import and premis.
I have never been against or closed minded to any benificient progress, =3D
application, utilization, or advancement in Technologies.
I advocate that we regard and evaluate them carefully for the many =3D
levels and dimensions of what they 'do' and how they do it...and that we =
=3D
regard and evaluate them as thoroughly as possible for their effects, =3D
influence and permutations...and for how we adapt to them...and what ( =3D
in larger terms, it costs).
Hence, to my mind anyway, some kinds of items/products/methods/legacies, =
=3D
represent what I feel is a bad deal.
Love,
Phil
Lv
----- Original Message -----=3D20
From: figglywig@comcast.net=3D20
Because, Phil -
I have better things to do than wash dishes manually, heat up food =3D
very slowly when I don't have time, or go slap my clothes on the rocks =3D
in the river! I love ya, but you have to understand that not everyone is =
=3D
stuck in the distant past. Technology, good. Grunt, grunt.
Gail, who knows you use a computer and that you have a website - 'why =3D
don'tcha just post handbills around the whole country to sell tools?!'
phil on wed 21 jul 10
Hi Larry, all...
"If you come to a fork
in the road, take it."
- Yogi Berra
How difficult should it be for anyone's Pottery/Ceramic customers to
understand that not all
functional Pottery should be arbitrarily treated the same as indifferent
mass produced factory ware?
Should the customers be treated arbitrarily as if they were just another
schmuck or stumble bum? No different?
I see no obligation being implicit for Potters to make Table Ware which
should be microwave safe, dishwasher safe and oven safe or idiot safe.
I see no sensible 'reason' for any customer to even want it to be.
They can buy 'Malmak' then.
Part of what is supposed to distinguish 'Human Beings' from other more
ordinary kinds of Apes, are the interests, deferences, discrimination and
judgement shown by Human Beings in their relations to things and events.
At one time, this was a source of pride for people, rather than a tacit
failure to be empowered and pandered to in defeat.
Oven Ware, Flame Ware, Microwave Ware, are special Categories of item, not
a generality to be applied to
everything.
Personally I see absolutely no justification for anyone even having or usin=
g
a 'microwave' oven or 'dishwasher' in the first place.
Anyone interested in Cooking and Baking, enough for it to even be worth
bothering with, would use a Convection Gas Stove and Oven, and, with this,
they should be
able to learn or inform themselves that only certain kinds of items under
the broader Category of Kitchen Ware
can be -
A) Put into a pre-Heated Oven...
B ) Put into an Oven to be brought up to Heat slowly.
C ) Put into an Oven at all for any reason.
D) Put on top of a lighted Burner Flame.
How ever did it get to this?
All these stories of people putting Ceramic 'Tea Pots' into open Flame Stov=
e
Burners, to Boil Water??? And of course, it shatters or cracks obligingly..=
.
People have lost the ability to distinguish a Tea Kettle from a Tea Pot?
This kind of stuff has bothered my since I was a kid.
My dad would borrow something and ruin it in five seconds...since it was no=
t
quite the same as he presumed it was, even when warned or asked him
pointedly to note the
difference.
Friends would borrow something and ruin it in five seconds.
"Hey, can I borrow your Pen a minute?"
Yes, but, please understand, this is a very old Fountain Pen, not a 'Ball
Point'...are you familiar with the difference?"
"Yeahhh..."
I hand it to them, they trash it in less than five seconds...mashing the
Nibs unto a Swallow Tail...morons, idiots, teeming millions of them from Se=
a
to shining Sea.
This was in the 1960s for Pete's sake.
Vastly worse now...
Watched an argument the other day about whether Firearms are
'Tools'...people getting huffy since to them, a Revolver is NOT 'like-a'
Screwdriver.
There seem to be lots of problems with people not understanding
supercategories, and subcategories, or hierarchies in general, and or in
addition, how in some instances, members of a catagory or supercategory can
also be members within other categories or other supercategories.
There should be enough reminders as very premis, for people to pause and
note, that Hand-made Pottery is to be distinguished from mass production
factory ware...and, hence, to be treated deferentially in either case
according to distinguishable endemics and intents represented by the item i=
n
question.
...sigh...
Love,
Phil
Lv
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Kruzan"
Come on Phil - we got to give the masses what they want, dishwashers,
microwaves, ovens and even FM radio.....civilization, of a sort. Beats
sitting on a log, roasting a rabbit over a open fire on a stick - some
days.......
Larry
Lee Love on wed 21 jul 10
On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 8:43 AM, Mea Rhee wrote:
> You can't run a successful pottery business if people will only buy your =
=3D
pots once.
I agree Mea. Where function is concerned, the market pretty much
addresses problems.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
Doug Trott on wed 21 jul 10
Amen! The dishwasher does not save time, it merely reassigns time from
washing to loading & unloading. And removes the social aspect of "I'll
wash, you dry, kids put away." It's good as a glass-scouring machine,
though. With a little grit from other dirty dishes your glasses will be
cloudy in no time!
And modern kitchens! Don't get me started. Whoops, too late. Built-ins
are an abomination. The "work triangle" presupposes one person is working
alone. If more are cooking they're all facing different directions. Turn
it inside out and you have the workbench, in which workers face each other
and can converse and pass items back and forth.
We have a wonderful old "Hoosier Cabinet" that works just fine. And a big
kitchen table. It's not perfect, but it will do for now.
Doug
On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 5:42 AM, phil wrote:
> Hi Larry, all...
>
>
> I have never seen one instance of anyone using a 'dishwasher' where with
> less effort and time, all the same Dishes and whatnot could not have been
> done better, in-a-Sink, by 'Hand'...and with a lot less Water and a lot
> less
> 'Soap' ( detergent really in 'dishwashers', not even Soap...)
>
>
>
Randall Moody on wed 21 jul 10
On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Doug Trott wrote:
> Amen! The dishwasher does not save time, it merely reassigns time from
> washing to loading & unloading. And removes the social aspect of "I'll
> wash, you dry, kids put away." It's good as a glass-scouring machine,
> though. With a little grit from other dirty dishes your glasses will be
> cloudy in no time!
>
> And modern kitchens! Don't get me started. Whoops, too late. Built-ins
> are an abomination. The "work triangle" presupposes one person is workin=
g
> alone. If more are cooking they're all facing different directions. Tur=
n
> it inside out and you have the workbench, in which workers face each othe=
r
> and can converse and pass items back and forth.
>
> We have a wonderful old "Hoosier Cabinet" that works just fine. And a bi=
g
> kitchen table. It's not perfect, but it will do for now.
>
> Doug
>
> Actually it does save time since it takes less time to load and put away
dishes than to amass them, hand wash them, hand dry them and put them away.
The social time not spent on doing a tedious task can be spent doing some
other social time. Maybe kick the can, jacks, or marbles if you like. If yo=
u
are having grit (not grits) as a regular part of your diet that is somethin=
g
you need to look into. Why are built-ins an abomination? It takes an
otherwise ugly or at best nondescript industrial machine and makes it look
as if it is part of the cabinetry. The "work triangle" works. It makes
cooking, getting things out of the built-in, and prepping them on the table
easy even with a larger number of cooks. Hoosier cabinets work fine but you
are still facing the cabinet i.e wall when you use one.
The new dishwashers are so quiet you wouldn't even know that they are
running. They are also more efficient and hold more dishes than your averag=
e
sink.
I used to co-own a catering company with my wife who is now an architect.
But this has very little to do with clay.
--
Randall in Atlanta
http://wrandallmoody.com/home.html
Larry Kruzan on wed 21 jul 10
No argument on any of this my friend. I too long for the much slower pace =
=3D
of that age you refer to so effectively.=3D20
However (this is where the desire breaks down);
I enjoy life today because of modern medicine. Don't doubt it, I'd be cold =
=3D
as my great, great, great, grandpapy if the drugs I was given after a =3D
certain accident did not exist - they didn't until the mid eighties.
Instead of this killer power wheelchair I sit in, I'd be stuck in what us =
=3D
WC users refer to as an Iron Maiden, the old heavy chair that a nurse had =
=3D
to push a patient around in.=3D20
Plus I'd have been dead from the allergy I have to Latex catheters - they =
=3D
didn't have any alterative until a few years ago. Don't want to get too =3D
graphic but its like a red hot poker stuck way in a bad place, followed by =
=3D
fever from infection, followed by death - not fun.
Now that is just my selfish and self centered point of view, but I do =3D
enjoy being here and now for many reasons.
Concerning dishwashers - If you ever get around this way (I invite all =3D
clayarters to drop by anytime they are nearby), I'd be happy to sit you =3D
down at my kitchen table for coffee (humbly, some of the best you will =3D
EVER enjoy) with my dishwasher running. It=3DE2=3D80=3D99s a upper end Bosc=
h and =3D
aside from the lights being on, you will never know its running. Its 10 =3D
years old now and we have NEVER lost anything to breakage.=3D20
It was not cheap but it is quality. I really think that folks who buy =3D
cheap, cheap dishwashers deserve to eat from paper plates. Like anything =
=3D
else mechanical and manmade, if you buy from the lowest bidder, it will =3D
disappoint you - every time.
As I said in the beginning, There are so many things in life today that =3D
are touted as improvements but they have just lead to a lowering of the =3D
quality of =3D22life=3D22 style. (I'm going to meddle a little here) Take t=
he =3D
endless parade of minivans that crowd the streets and roads every =3D
afternoon, carrying their payloads of kids to this practice or that event =
=3D
under the misguided guise of widening the kids experiences.
My neighbors kids NEVER get to play in their own yard because they are =3D
being trucked all over creation to do this or that. They are bused to a =3D
school 1 mile away and spend all their school day indoors because they are =
=3D
not allowed outside for recess if temps are above 80 or below 50 - this is =
=3D
Illinois, that 30 degree window does not exist. In the little free time =3D
they have available, they are glued to TV or surfing the web or texting.
They have never had one moment of self directed creativity in their lives. =
=3D
If you stood them out in the yard by themselves for ten minutes, they =3D
would not have a clue how to handle the freedom. Would most likely go =3D
cationic. The older boy has never even mowed the yard. They don't do =3D
chores - that could damage their self esteem if they did not do well.=3D20
Now hear this=3D21=3D21=3D21=3D21 There is nothing better for self esteem t=
han =3D
failure=3D21=3D21=3D21 Followed by success=3D21=3D21=3D21 Teach the kids th=
at if you =3D
fail it is not going to destroy you - learn what you did improperly, =3D
correct the error and move on. A single failure does not kill you - just =
=3D
as a single success will not complete your life.=3D20
A failure can teach a young person so much about what is inside themselves =
=3D
- but not if mommy is there hovering over them every second. A little =3D
blood from a scratch will not kill them either. Or their first (or second) =
=3D
fat lip or bloody nose. Teaching events that we are trying to erase from =
=3D
society.
Did I mention that they are obese too? Well, so am I, so I'd better leave =
=3D
that one alone. Except to say that they and we need to get off the =3D
computer and do something that involves our own back yard. Even if its =3D
mowing by hand.=3D20
End of Meddling.=3D20
On second thought Phil, you are right, except about my dishwasher.
Larry Kruzan
Lost Creek Pottery
www.lostcreekpottery.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart =3D5Bmailto:Clayart=3D40LSV.CERAMICS.ORG=3D5D On Behalf Of ph=
il
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 2:16 AM
To: Clayart=3D40LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Standards (was Pricing. Can we talk?)
Hi Larry, all...
=3D22If you come to a fork
in the road, take it.=3D22
- Yogi Berra
How difficult should it be for anyone's Pottery/Ceramic customers to
understand that not all
functional Pottery should be arbitrarily treated the same as indifferent
mass produced factory ware?
Should the customers be treated arbitrarily as if they were just another
schmuck or stumble bum? No different?
I see no obligation being implicit for Potters to make Table Ware which
should be microwave safe, dishwasher safe and oven safe or idiot safe.
I see no sensible 'reason' for any customer to even want it to be.
They can buy 'Malmak' then.
Part of what is supposed to distinguish 'Human Beings' from other more
ordinary kinds of Apes, are the interests, deferences, discrimination and
judgement shown by Human Beings in their relations to things and events.
At one time, this was a source of pride for people, rather than a tacit
failure to be empowered and pandered to in defeat.
Oven Ware, Flame Ware, Microwave Ware, are special Categories of item, not
a generality to be applied to
everything.
Personally I see absolutely no justification for anyone even having or usin=
g
a 'microwave' oven or 'dishwasher' in the first place.
Anyone interested in Cooking and Baking, enough for it to even be worth
bothering with, would use a Convection Gas Stove and Oven, and, with this,
they should be
able to learn or inform themselves that only certain kinds of items under
the broader Category of Kitchen Ware
can be -
A) Put into a pre-Heated Oven...
B ) Put into an Oven to be brought up to Heat slowly.
C ) Put into an Oven at all for any reason.
D) Put on top of a lighted Burner Flame.
How ever did it get to this?
All these stories of people putting Ceramic 'Tea Pots' into open Flame Stov=
e
Burners, to Boil Water??? And of course, it shatters or cracks obligingly..=
.
People have lost the ability to distinguish a Tea Kettle from a Tea Pot?
This kind of stuff has bothered my since I was a kid.
My dad would borrow something and ruin it in five seconds...since it was no=
t
quite the same as he presumed it was, even when warned or asked him
pointedly to note the
difference.
Friends would borrow something and ruin it in five seconds.
=3D22Hey, can I borrow your Pen a minute?=3D22
Yes, but, please understand, this is a very old Fountain Pen, not a 'Ball
Point'...are you familiar with the difference?=3D22
=3D22Yeahhh...=3D22
I hand it to them, they trash it in less than five seconds...mashing the
Nibs unto a Swallow Tail...morons, idiots, teeming millions of them from Se=
a
to shining Sea.
This was in the 1960s for Pete's sake.
Vastly worse now...
Watched an argument the other day about whether Firearms are
'Tools'...people getting huffy since to them, a Revolver is NOT 'like-a'
Screwdriver.
There seem to be lots of problems with people not understanding
supercategories, and subcategories, or hierarchies in general, and or in
addition, how in some instances, members of a catagory or supercategory can
also be members within other categories or other supercategories.
There should be enough reminders as very premis, for people to pause and
note, that Hand-made Pottery is to be distinguished from mass production
factory ware...and, hence, to be treated deferentially in either case
according to distinguishable endemics and intents represented by the item i=
n
question.
=3D2E...sigh...
Love,
Phil
Lv
----- Original Message -----
From: =3D22Larry Kruzan=3D22
Come on Phil - we got to give the masses what they want, dishwashers,
microwaves, ovens and even FM radio.....civilization, of a sort. Beats
sitting on a log, roasting a rabbit over a open fire on a stick - some
days.......
Larry
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D
Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
(Email Guard: 7.0.0.18, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.15480)
http://www.pctools.com/
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D
Lee Love on wed 21 jul 10
The whole point of using "handmade" is to get yourself
out of the mindset of making your life conform to machines.
I enjoy the time I spend with my pots. It really doesn't
take more time than the dishwasher. We have one. We just don't
use it.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
phil on thu 22 jul 10
Hi Robert...all...
Below...amid...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Harris"
> Actually lightly cooked vegetables are better for you than raw
> vegetables. This is because our guts' cannot break through intact cell
> walls.
It depends on the Vegetable or specific Plant Material...Lol...
Too, this is some of why we have Molars - to Masticate our Foods
thoroughly...or, it's an option anyway.
Theropods of course have an all round far superior and vastly more effecien=
t
system - a 'Gizzard'.
But yes, some Vegetables are better accomidated once cooked
enough...Rhuebarb...Asparagus...Artechokes...Polk Weed I think...those come
to mind.
> The cooking breaks open these cell walls and allows us to
> digest the goodies inside.
I s'pose Freezing would do that also...
> Obviously if they've been cooked to death
> then you destroy many of the more labile nutrients, but steaming (or
> microwaving them) for a few minutes is actually better than raw. I can
> probably find the scientific articles if you need proof!
R
Far as I know there is some truth to this...but, it varies of course with
what Plant materials we have in mind to consider.
'Steaming' or 'Roasting' ( withiing limits ) I believe are understood to be
the least destructive method of Cooking some kinds of Plant Materials for
eating, when they are a kind whose Chemistry or structure recommends
it...but, it depends...
More below...amid...
On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 11:46 AM, paul gerhold
wrote:
> Dear Phil,
Hi Paul,
> People use dishwashers because the are less effort than washing by hand,
> result in better sanitation , and are more energy efficient.
There is no reason why better sanitation would result for using a
'dishwasher' than from doing Dishes by Hand.
It just depends on how well either method manages.
Letting the Hand or 'Machine' Washed Dishes 'Dry' thoroughly is also a
factor if 'sanitation' is a worry...
> Microwaves are more energy efficient for reheating food.
But with a cost of doing some very weird things to the 'food' also...to say
nothing of doing things to anyone within the ambiance of the 'Oven'.
Many studies were done in which careful evaluations and analysis of
'microwave' exposure, and, of
'microwaved' food indicated adverse changes having occurred which would not
be good for the person or other organism exposed to or eating it.
Were it not for the Military and 'darpa' related agendas, 'microwaves' in
these banal contexts would have never been allowed.
Things are not as 'simple' as the sell jobs we get handed.
> They also cook
> some fresh vegetables better (flavor and nutrition) than boiling.
Since when is 'boiling' a favored method anyway?
It is when it is, but, it is hardly the only option.
> Now, if
> you eat all your veggies raw you are better off, other than salmonella an=
d
> fecal bacteria and a few other health concerns.
>
> Paul
...endoparasites also...
Yes...sad but true.
See 'fda' and so many other alphabet deceit fronts if one wishes to learn
what the most vile of hypocracy mind-bending inconsistency, and corruption
look like.
Lets hope they and theirs get lucky at some 'salad bar'...real lucky...
...sigh...
Love,
Phil
Lv
Doug Trott on thu 22 jul 10
Randall -
Well, I'm not completely a neo-Luddite, but we'll have to agree to disagree
on some aspects of modern kitchens. This isn't art - we're allowed to have
our personal preferences without being labeled as ignorant and
close-minded! I will point out, though, that in order to maximize sales of
shiny new "labor-saving" devices, one must convince people that the manual
labor involved is tedious and drudgery. Perhaps some already think that,
which is a shame, but it's a greater shame to convince someone who thought
otherwise.
OT, so let's get back to clay. I'm firing my wood kiln for the 2d time thi=
s
weekend, and have made some improvements that I hope will help me get up to
temperature. Keep your fingers crossed for me!
Doug
On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 8:39 PM, Randall Moody wro=
te:
> On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Doug Trott wrote:
>
>> Amen! The dishwasher does not save time, it merely reassigns time from
>> washing to loading & unloading. And removes the social aspect of "I'll
>> wash, you dry, kids put away." It's good as a glass-scouring machine,
>> though. With a little grit from other dirty dishes your glasses will be
>> cloudy in no time!
>>
>> And modern kitchens! Don't get me started. Whoops, too late. Built-in=
s
>> are an abomination. The "work triangle" presupposes one person is worki=
ng
>> alone. If more are cooking they're all facing different directions. Tu=
rn
>> it inside out and you have the workbench, in which workers face each oth=
er
>> and can converse and pass items back and forth.
>>
>> We have a wonderful old "Hoosier Cabinet" that works just fine. And a b=
ig
>> kitchen table. It's not perfect, but it will do for now.
>>
>> Doug
>>
>> Actually it does save time since it takes less time to load and put away
> dishes than to amass them, hand wash them, hand dry them and put them awa=
y.
> The social time not spent on doing a tedious task can be spent doing some
> other social time. Maybe kick the can, jacks, or marbles if you like. If =
you
> are having grit (not grits) as a regular part of your diet that is someth=
ing
> you need to look into. Why are built-ins an abomination? It takes an
> otherwise ugly or at best nondescript industrial machine and makes it loo=
k
> as if it is part of the cabinetry. The "work triangle" works. It makes
> cooking, getting things out of the built-in, and prepping them on the tab=
le
> easy even with a larger number of cooks. Hoosier cabinets work fine but y=
ou
> are still facing the cabinet i.e wall when you use one.
>
> The new dishwashers are so quiet you wouldn't even know that they are
> running. They are also more efficient and hold more dishes than your aver=
age
> sink.
>
> I used to co-own a catering company with my wife who is now an architect.
>
> But this has very little to do with clay.
>
> --
> Randall in Atlanta
> http://wrandallmoody.com/home.html
>
Lee Love on fri 23 jul 10
On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 1:21 PM, Robert Harris wr=
=3D
ote:
> Actually lightly cooked vegetables are better for you than raw
> vegetables. This is because our guts' cannot break through intact cell
> walls.
This is true of grains, but not soft veggies like greens and/or fruit.
Speculation is, that cooking allowed for large forebrained,
neotonus hominids (and dogs) to survive. Before cooking, baby faces
were born, but didn't often survive childhood. Neanderthal had 4
root molars. We usually have 3 root.
While Neanderthal used fire, they did not do much cooking.
Analysis of their bones show that their diets were the same as wolves
of the same region.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/787918.stm
Taste for flesh troubled Neanderthals
--
=3DA0Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
ivor and olive lewis on tue 27 jul 10
One of the problems with the human digestive system and the range of foods
we choose to use is our inability to digest Cellulose. We do not posses a
digestive enzyme that promotes the breakdown of that substance. Neither do
many mammalian vertebrates. Some rely on infestations of bacteria in their
guts to do that work. This has peculiar consequences for some of them. For
example, this process takes place in the later stages of a rabbits
alimentary system, after passing through those organs where useful digestiv=
e
residues can be absorbed. So a rabbit feeds in its sleep, with its nose
pressed against its rectum on little green pellets.
Unless foods with high levels of cellulose are masticated thoroughly to
break down Cellulose cell walls of green leafy vegetables to access
Chlorophyll, humans can suffer from a deficiency of Magnesium. With a varie=
d
diet this is not a problem. But sufferers from minor cramps might consider
our inability to readily digest a most common source of this essential
element. The may wish to review their lifestyle.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis,
REDHILL,
South Australia
Lee Love on tue 27 jul 10
On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 11:46 PM, ivor and olive lewis
wrote:
> One of the problems with the human digestive system and the range of food=
=3D
s
> we choose to use is our inability to digest Cellulose.
>. They may wish to review their lifestyle.
The lack of fiber in the modern over refined diet is a major source
of health problems.
--
=3DA0Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
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