Michael Wendt on thu 19 aug 10
David,
1.) Soda is not a listed substance on the EPA hazards list
http://www.epa.gov/air/urbanair/
2.) Small pollution sources are defined in terms of tons per
year of the listed pollutant.
If you fired once a month you would only use about 18 Lbs of
soda a year!
3.) Even if you assume the entire 1.5 Lbs per firing of the
soda went into the air, the dilution rate at 50 feet would
render the pollutant harmless since soda is added to the
firing relatively gradually once at the correct temperature.
Based on the EPA web site, I expect the official has no
legal grounds to deny you the permit. Without being
adversarial, I would ask him to cite the EPA regulation with
its listed emission limits that he is using to deny you the
permit so that you can generate the needed math to support
your claim.
Remember, no one is expected to emit zero pollution, just to
do their part to stay within the regulatory guidelines.
Regards,
Michael Wendt
Lee Love on thu 19 aug 10
I think I would build a straight gas kiln at first, that would be
capable of soda firing. It wouldn't occur to me, until sometime
after it was built and okayed, that I might want to put soda in it.
--
=3DA0Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
ivor and olive lewis on fri 20 aug 10
Took the time today to weigh out a portion of Sodium Carbonate and dissolve
it in water to make a 10 percent solution.
Applied the pH meter expecting the needle to swing over to 11 plus or twelv=
e
after all I had been reading in the recent thread.
Hardly budged a notch above pH 7. How Caustic is that ?
Regards,
Ivor Lewis,
REDHILL,
South Australia
David Beumee on fri 20 aug 10
Dear Ivor,
Thank you very much for taking the time to do the experiment. I'm having
the Phil Rogers Chapter scanned for you today and will send along.
David Beumee
On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 11:39 PM, ivor and olive lewis <
iandol@westnet.com.au> wrote:
> Took the time today to weigh out a portion of Sodium Carbonate and dissol=
ve
> it in water to make a 10 percent solution.
> Applied the pH meter expecting the needle to swing over to 11 plus or
> twelve
> after all I had been reading in the recent thread.
> Hardly budged a notch above pH 7. How Caustic is that ?
>
> Regards,
> Ivor Lewis,
> REDHILL,
> South Australia
>
jonathan byler on fri 20 aug 10
ph of 7 is the same as plain water is normally. neutral ph. maybe
your water is acidic? this can be the case if it is rainwater or from
other natural source. I think the water board here corrects the ph if
it is too far one way or the other. if your water is acidic to begin
with, the 10% solution may have neutralized it more or less...
On Aug 20, 2010, at 12:39 AM, ivor and olive lewis wrote:
> Took the time today to weigh out a portion of Sodium Carbonate and
> dissolve
> it in water to make a 10 percent solution.
> Applied the pH meter expecting the needle to swing over to 11 plus
> or twelve
> after all I had been reading in the recent thread.
> Hardly budged a notch above pH 7. How Caustic is that ?
>
> Regards,
> Ivor Lewis,
> REDHILL,
> South Australia
James Freeman on fri 20 aug 10
Dumb question: Isn't the soda ash supposed to be a saturated
solution? Or is 10% the saturation point at room temperature?
...James
James Freeman
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice.=3DA0 I
should not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
> On Aug 20, 2010, at 12:39 AM, ivor and olive lewis wrote:
>
>> Took the time today to weigh out a portion of Sodium Carbonate and
>> dissolve
>> it in water to make a 10 percent solution.
>> Applied the pH meter expecting the needle to swing over to 11 plus
>> or twelve
>> after all I had been reading in the recent thread.
>> Hardly budged a notch above pH 7. How Caustic is that ?
Robert Harris on fri 20 aug 10
Tapwater water can often read a pH of 5.5 (acidic) as you say. However
this is not a "buffered" pH of 5. That is just the tiniest amount of a
base (alkali) will give it an alkaline pH (>7). pH is a logarithmic
(log10) measure of the concentration of hydrogen ions in a solution.
H2O is always rapidly moving between three states, H+ (well actually
H3O+, but let's not get picky), H2O, and OH-. pH essentially measures
the where the equilibrium sits. When an acid such as HCl (hydrochloric
acid aka muriatic acid aka stomach acid) is dissolved in water it
becomes a repository of H+ ions which forces the equilibrium well over
to the acid side, there are lots of extra hydrogen ions. When NaOH
(sodium hydroxide) is introduced there are lots of extra OH- ions
floating around, pushing the equilibrium to the alkaline side.
Practically anything added to water is going to alter this equilibrium
(in fact the plastic or glass container can do this if the electronic
configuration of the surface is correct).
When water has a pH of 5.5 it means it has about 30 fold more
hydrogen ions than normal water. When you consider that most of the
water is in the form of H2O rather than H3O+ this is insignificant.
Compare concentrated HCl which can have a pH of 1 which has 1,000,000
fold more H3O+. Thus adding a tiny bit of caustic is going to rapidly
change the pH from 5.5 to 7. A quick of the top of my head calculation
tells me we would 30 microlitres of conc. HCl in 1 litre (which is
about 1 drop) to convert it from pH 7 to pH 5.5. Likewise to go the
otherway we would need 1 drop of a concentrated NaOH solution to go
from pH 5.5 to pH 7.0. If sodium carbonate (soda ash) was particularly
alkaline it would shoot way past 7.0.
I was going to talk more about buffering of solutions (which makes it
able to stick at a particular pH even when you add large amounts of
acid or alkali) but I don't think it adds to the argument at this
point.
Anyway in conclusion I think that Ivor is right that Sodium Carbonate
is not alkaline. If on the other hand by "caustic" people mean
"reactive" or "destructive", then that it is. Sodium Carbonate will
quickly attack metals etc.
Robert
On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 2:22 PM, jonathan byler wrote:
> ph of 7 is the same as plain water is normally. neutral ph. =3DA0maybe
> your water is acidic? =3DA0this can be the case if it is rainwater or fro=
m
> other natural source. =3DA0I think the water board here corrects the ph i=
f
> it is too far one way or the other. =3DA0if your water is acidic to begin
> with, the 10% solution may have neutralized it more or less...
>
>
> On Aug 20, 2010, at 12:39 AM, ivor and olive lewis wrote:
>
>> Took the time today to weigh out a portion of Sodium Carbonate and
>> dissolve
>> it in water to make a 10 percent solution.
>> Applied the pH meter expecting the needle to swing over to 11 plus
>> or twelve
>> after all I had been reading in the recent thread.
>> Hardly budged a notch above pH 7. How Caustic is that ?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ivor Lewis,
>> REDHILL,
>> South Australia
>
--=3D20
----------------------------------------------------------
jonathan byler on fri 20 aug 10
everything you always wanted to know about soda ash but were afraid to
ask:
http://www.genchem.com/pdf/SodaAshTech.pdf
according to their chart a 10% solution would have a pH of about 11.6
they also say that you can't measure the pH of soda ash solutions
accurately using the color strips. I'm not going to, but you could
try putting your hand in and see how it feels... I'm pretty sure it
will be slippery and burny, and leave a rash or so if you put it in
long enough. not quite on the level of chlorine bleach, which has a
pH of about 12.6 or so but pretty strong base regardless.
the fact that the test strips don't work well, according to these
folks may explain ivor's funny numbers.
On Aug 20, 2010, at 2:18 PM, Robert Harris wrote:
> Tapwater water can often read a pH of 5.5 (acidic) as you say. However
> this is not a "buffered" pH of 5. That is just the tiniest amount of a
> base (alkali) will give it an alkaline pH (>7). pH is a logarithmic
> (log10) measure of the concentration of hydrogen ions in a solution.
> H2O is always rapidly moving between three states, H+ (well actually
> H3O+, but let's not get picky), H2O, and OH-. pH essentially measures
> the where the equilibrium sits. When an acid such as HCl (hydrochloric
> acid aka muriatic acid aka stomach acid) is dissolved in water it
> becomes a repository of H+ ions which forces the equilibrium well over
> to the acid side, there are lots of extra hydrogen ions. When NaOH
> (sodium hydroxide) is introduced there are lots of extra OH- ions
> floating around, pushing the equilibrium to the alkaline side.
> Practically anything added to water is going to alter this equilibrium
> (in fact the plastic or glass container can do this if the electronic
> configuration of the surface is correct).
>
> When water has a pH of 5.5 it means it has about 30 fold more
> hydrogen ions than normal water. When you consider that most of the
> water is in the form of H2O rather than H3O+ this is insignificant.
> Compare concentrated HCl which can have a pH of 1 which has 1,000,000
> fold more H3O+. Thus adding a tiny bit of caustic is going to rapidly
> change the pH from 5.5 to 7. A quick of the top of my head calculation
> tells me we would 30 microlitres of conc. HCl in 1 litre (which is
> about 1 drop) to convert it from pH 7 to pH 5.5. Likewise to go the
> otherway we would need 1 drop of a concentrated NaOH solution to go
> from pH 5.5 to pH 7.0. If sodium carbonate (soda ash) was particularly
> alkaline it would shoot way past 7.0.
> I was going to talk more about buffering of solutions (which makes it
> able to stick at a particular pH even when you add large amounts of
> acid or alkali) but I don't think it adds to the argument at this
> point.
>
> Anyway in conclusion I think that Ivor is right that Sodium Carbonate
> is not alkaline. If on the other hand by "caustic" people mean
> "reactive" or "destructive", then that it is. Sodium Carbonate will
> quickly attack metals etc.
>
> Robert
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 2:22 PM, jonathan byler
> wrote:
>> ph of 7 is the same as plain water is normally. neutral ph. maybe
>> your water is acidic? this can be the case if it is rainwater or
>> from
>> other natural source. I think the water board here corrects the ph
>> if
>> it is too far one way or the other. if your water is acidic to begin
>> with, the 10% solution may have neutralized it more or less...
>>
>>
>> On Aug 20, 2010, at 12:39 AM, ivor and olive lewis wrote:
>>
>>> Took the time today to weigh out a portion of Sodium Carbonate and
>>> dissolve
>>> it in water to make a 10 percent solution.
>>> Applied the pH meter expecting the needle to swing over to 11 plus
>>> or twelve
>>> after all I had been reading in the recent thread.
>>> Hardly budged a notch above pH 7. How Caustic is that ?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Ivor Lewis,
>>> REDHILL,
>>> South Australia
>>
>
>
>
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------
John Britt on fri 20 aug 10
How about soda ash and the environment (i.e. your hands).
What do the scientists think of this "solution"?
http://ncclayclub.blogspot.com/2010/08/attn-carbon-trappers.html
www.johnbrittpottery.com
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