Robert Harris on fri 20 aug 10
On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 10:05 PM, Lee Love wrote:
"Ahead of ours" is rather a subjective judgment. Don't present you own
prejudices as fact.
phil on fri 20 aug 10
Hi Randal, all...
Except that not that long ago, there really WAS a genuine Romance, an allur=
e
and mystique to Araby, and, even to the U.S. for that matter...hell, even
Canada had genuine, take-it-to-the-Bank, steady as a Rock, Romance, allure
and mystique...which is whay lots of people Lived Canada so much.
These allures, Romances and mystiques still "Live" in me, even though the
'reality' does not match too good now...( one reason I refrain from 'travel=
'
I guess...)
Does anyone remember the Camels of British Columbia?
http://web.uvic.ca/vv/student/vicbrewery/content/making_beer/people/camels.=
htm
Kind of a sweet order of ( well, 'Middle' ) East meets West, I'd say...
...sigh...
Phil
Lv
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randall Moody"
>I compare it to the concept of the "pastoral ideal" and the old trend to
> have paintings of Egyptian themes or Bedouins from way back. It is the
> lure
> of the exotic. It is written with the over romanticism that glosses over
> the
> reality in lieu of the idealization. It is perpetuated by those that seek
> profit from keeping that allure and mystique alive.
>
>
> --Randall in Atlanta--
> http://wrandallmoody.com/home.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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11:35:00
Lee Love on fri 20 aug 10
On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 10:02 PM, Robert Harris w=
=3D
rote:
> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 10:05 PM, Lee Love wrote=
=3D
:
>
> "Ahead of ours" ... Don't present you own
> prejudices as fact.
How would you know Robert, if you have no experience of the
ceramic culture of Japan? Don't present you own ignorance as fact.
The big advantage they have that we have no counterpart in this
country, is tea culture. Tea promoted art and craft in unparalleled
ways.
Here is an example: In the Joyful Honda home improvement stores,
they have selections of clays, materials equipment and even modular
studios, that put our clay stores to shame. You can buy over 50
kinds of clay from all over Japan.
--=3D20
--
=3DA0Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
mel jacobson on fri 20 aug 10
i think in many ways the written materials describing
japanese pottery makers, famous folks etc. are deeply
edged with romantic overblown verbiage.
(i know i have read 90 percent of the books.)
most of the potters i met, and that is many...including those
in the raku family are hard working crafts people trying to make a buck.
(yen) it is a business in japan. and, still is. and, it is treated as
a business. never fun and games.
there is little to compare to studio potters here in the west.
and, i think that is still the case. most that enter the pottery
business do not screw around, or look for their muse.
it is damn hard work, long hours and eagerly looking for a niche in the
market place.
the competition is brutal.
and that compares closely with those trying to make a living
in clay any place on this earth.
if you are going to survive and feed your family with clay, not
a great deal of time to `wax elegant` and stare at the moon
for inspiration.
i know this upsets folks that think japanese potters have gobs
of time to write and do calligraphy about their feelings. it is just
that i never saw that...or read it. but, i have seen gobs of it
written in america. by americans.
there sure was not a minute used in meditation or mind games
while i was there....it was hit the wheel and get the work done.
all of us, including mr. uchida and his wife. long, long hours a day.
and, it sure was never the `collective thought`. it was individual
potters working for a place in the market. there were at least 50
potteries in the blocks around uchida's house. there were, i bet a
thousand in our section of kyoto. and, it was work..hard work..long
hours, six days a week.
in fact, i don't think you could clump them at all... there were very
regional differences...and glazes that dominated those regions...and
styles, but, each potter had their own ideas.
well, anyway.
i do know we were all raised to think of japanese potters as being `holy`.
i did not find that to be true.
they were potters, working hard to make a living, 365 days a year.
mel
from: minnetonka, mn
website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
clayart link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
new book: http://www.21stcenturykilns.com
alternate: melpots7575@gmail.com
Randall Moody on fri 20 aug 10
I compare it to the concept of the "pastoral ideal" and the old trend to
have paintings of Egyptian themes or Bedouins from way back. It is the lure
of the exotic. It is written with the over romanticism that glosses over th=
e
reality in lieu of the idealization. It is perpetuated by those that seek
profit from keeping that allure and mystique alive.
--Randall in Atlanta--
http://wrandallmoody.com/home.html
Jeff Jeff on fri 20 aug 10
Mel,
Back when I was a wheel thrower, and enthralled with all things tea
related, I happened upon a book that documented teacups from each of the p=
ottery
regions in Japan.
(Such was my passion that I bought the book. About the size of a paperback
novel.)
I was amazed that pottery styles could be so regimented. This region made
this style teacup, with this type of glaze, while that region made that
style of teacup, with that style of glaze.
The book was written in the early 70's, so I don't know if such rigid
standards still exist, but it gave me a great appreciation for the differen=
ce
between American and Japanese pottery and American and Japanese potters.
take care
Jeff Longtin
Minneapolis
ps. I don't know if such imposed uniformity enabled more potters to
succeed, or not succeed, but it would be interesting, from and economical
standpoint, to investigate that aspect.
In a message dated 8/20/2010 5:02:37 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
melpots2@VISI.COM writes:
i think in many ways the written materials describing
japanese pottery makers, famous folks etc. are deeply
edged with romantic overblown verbiage.
(i know i have read 90 percent of the books.)
most of the potters i met, and that is many...including those
in the raku family are hard working crafts people trying to make a buck.
(yen) it is a business in japan. and, still is. and, it is treated as
a business. never fun and games.
there is little to compare to studio potters here in the west.
and, i think that is still the case. most that enter the pottery
business do not screw around, or look for their muse.
it is damn hard work, long hours and eagerly looking for a niche in the
market place.
the competition is brutal.
and that compares closely with those trying to make a living
in clay any place on this earth.
if you are going to survive and feed your family with clay, not
a great deal of time to `wax elegant` and stare at the moon
for inspiration.
i know this upsets folks that think japanese potters have gobs
of time to write and do calligraphy about their feelings. it is just
that i never saw that...or read it. but, i have seen gobs of it
written in america. by americans.
there sure was not a minute used in meditation or mind games
while i was there....it was hit the wheel and get the work done.
all of us, including mr. uchida and his wife. long, long hours a day.
and, it sure was never the `collective thought`. it was individual
potters working for a place in the market. there were at least 50
potteries in the blocks around uchida's house. there were, i bet a
thousand in our section of kyoto. and, it was work..hard work..long
hours, six days a week.
in fact, i don't think you could clump them at all... there were very
regional differences...and glazes that dominated those regions...and
styles, but, each potter had their own ideas.
well, anyway.
i do know we were all raised to think of japanese potters as being `holy`.
i did not find that to be true.
they were potters, working hard to make a living, 365 days a year.
mel
from: minnetonka, mn
website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
clayart link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
new book: http://www.21stcenturykilns.com
alternate: melpots7575@gmail.com
Lee Love on fri 20 aug 10
On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 5:02 PM, mel jacobson wrote:
> i do know we were all raised to think of japanese potters as being `holy`=
=3D
.
> i did not find that to be true.
> they were potters, working hard to make a living, 365 days a year.
It's funny these potters you meet Mel-san. The respect for
Japanese potters and pottery has been slipping over the past 20 years.
A couple reasons I could deal with a traditional apprenticeship
with an NTL, is my time spent at Zen monasteries, both in the USA and
in Japan. It helped me with practical things and culture shock.
And also, while I like the ideals that come out of the 17th century, I
had and have a very unromantic view of modern Japan.
Visitors and guest potters who are only in Japan for a year or
less don't get to experience "real" Japan. Guests and guest potters
(as opposed to apprenticeships in traditional situations) experience a
rosy view of Japan.
Jean and I always got along well with our late Zen teacher,
because we treated him like a friend and not like a guru. It was
good practice for living in Japan.
--
=3DA0Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
Randall Moody on fri 20 aug 10
On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 6:23 PM, Lee Love wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 5:02 PM, mel jacobson wrote:
>
> > i do know we were all raised to think of japanese potters as being
> `holy`.
> > i did not find that to be true.
> > they were potters, working hard to make a living, 365 days a year.
>
> It's funny these potters you meet Mel-san. The respect for
> Japanese potters and pottery has been slipping over the past 20 years.
>
>
>
I personally think that it is slipping due to people not being willing to
drink the kool aid that was mixed up by Mr. Leach early on. There are many
more voices and opinions to listen to now than then in relation to craft an=
d
clay.
--
Randall in Atlanta
http://wrandallmoody.com/home.html
Lee Love on fri 20 aug 10
On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 7:46 PM, Randall Moody wr=
=3D
ote:
> I personally think
It is a general parochial attitude we have developed about the
rest of the world in the last 30 years. The wages of Empire, and the
rot that comes from the insulating effect of a closed society, which
breeds closed minds.
--
=3DA0Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
Lee Love on fri 20 aug 10
On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 7:17 PM, Jeff Jeff wrote:
> The book was written in the early 70's, so I don't know if such rigid
One of the unique things about Mashiko and Hamada, is that a
creative attitude was developed there that doesn't exist in the
ancient kiln sites of Japan.
Here is a quote from "Found In Translation":
"My initial take on Hamada when I was in America was that he was an
educated person who went to Mashiko and made the folk pottery he found
there. When I was able to study traditional Mashiko work made before
Hamada=3D92s arrival and compare it to his work at the Mingeikan folk
craft museum in Tokyo, at his museum in Mashiko, and at gallery sales,
I realized that he brought to Mashiko shapes he was exposed to during
his studies and travels to China, Korea, Europe, and the rest of the
world. Before Hamada, Mashiko was known for kitchen crockery and
storage jars; it was a kind of Redwing Pottery of Japan. It was Hamada
who brought tableware and tea-ceremony ware to Mashiko."
If you research a little bit, I think you can find out
for yourself.
> standards still exist, but it gave me a great appreciation for the differ=
=3D
ence
> between American and Japanese pottery and American and Japanese potters.
It is difficult to understand the differences just from a book. The
ceramic culture is quantum leaps ahead of ours. Traditional tea cups
are just the tip of the iceberg.
--
=3DA0Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
Robert Harris on sat 21 aug 10
Personally I have always found Constable to be one of the artists
whose painting I can sit in front of for hours. Perhaps because I grew
up with the scenery which he painted - which is very different from an
American landscape.
Jackson Pollack just makes me want to take two aspirin and lie down.
To each his own. Just because kids do something naturally doesn't mean
it's any more "real, dude".
In fact I think it goes back to the whole exposition about needing
craftsmanship for art. What Constable did represents a lot more
craftsmanship. On the other hand I particularly love his full size oil
"sketches", which for me kicked Monet's impressionist ass half a
century before Monet was even born. Of course it is these
impressionistic sketches which pull away from the "realism" you talk
about. However they still show a master craftsman, something I am not
convinced that Pollack does. Of course I've never been to art school
so I'm sure some erudite art critic can tell me exactly how much craft
Pollack had....
No doubt I've been culturally indoctrinated. However I do realize that
I have (do you? I think everyone has been indoctrinated by a
particular culture at some point) but I make no apologies for it.
On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 10:19 PM, Vince Pitelka wrote=
=3D
:
> Paul Gerhold wrote:
> "But for my taste give me Greek Attic pots any old time."
>
> Hi Paul. =3DA0I can certainly appreciate Greek Attic pots. =3DA0I find th=
em
> wondrous in their aesthetic and technology, but they are so specific, and
> often so stiff. =3DA0If you look at the earlier Black Figure work of Exek=
ia=3D
s,
> then you see some of the finest ceramic work ever done in any tradition,
> but so often in later Attic pots the potter was not the vase-painter, and
> the painted image was inappropriately positioned on the pot. It is
> understandable how that happened, but still a shame when one compares
> those works with other examples where the surface decoration really
> embraces the form, as in the earlier Aegean Minoan octopus jars, or in th=
=3D
e
> intricately-filled surfaces of pots from the Geometric and Orientalizing
> periods of Greek pots.
>
> To me, saying "Give me Greek Attic pots any old time" in comparison to
> pots by Shoji Hamada would be just the same as looking at Abstract
> Expressionist paintings by Jackson Pollack and saying "Give me John
> Constable landscapes any old time." =3DA0It sort of completely misses the
> point. =3DA0It might be true from a purely personal point of view and sen=
se=3D
of
> taste, but it doesn't do much for one's open-minded appreciation of art.
> When I taught art appreciation in North Dakota, my primary messages at th=
=3D
e
> start of the class were "open your eyes and your mind to new
> possibilities," and (as I said in a previous post) appreciation of art ha=
=3D
s
> very little to do with whether you personally like it or would want it in
> your home. =3DA0Whether or not you like the work is pretty irrelevant to =
an=3D
y
> discussion of the aesthetics or importance of Hamada's work. =3DA0It matt=
er=3D
s
> very much to me what you like personally - I am always interested in that=
=3D
,
> but for the larger discussion of ceramics, it is important to give credit
> to Hamada and the great Japanese potters of the modern era, as well as to
> the great Greek vase painters, most of whom are anonymous.
>
> Tangential to this discussion but still important to an appreciation of
> Classical Greek pots in comparison to the rest of the history of art is
> the concept that the Greeks set the stage for finely-honed pictorial
> realism as an expression of the noble ideals of Classical humanism -
> truth, beauty, heroism, etc. =3DA0Subsequently, Classical adherence to
> pictorial realism as an ultimate goal was adopted in painting and
> sculpture during the late Gothic period in Germany and Italy as Christian
> humanism, and was supercharged by the force of the Catholic Church during
> the Italian Renaissance, and thus became an ideal of Western art. =3DA0In
> fact, it is far more natural and intuitive to interpret and abstract one'=
=3D
s
> surroundings in art, rather than just copying reality, which at its most
> basic level is just a matter of skill involving little creativity. =3DA0T=
hi=3D
s
> has been much studied and confirmed. =3DA0Kids abstract art naturally and
> intuitively until we screw up that inclination with some sort of perverse
> dogma about pictorial realism. =3DA0Please understand that I have nothing
> against pictorial realism, and it is one of many valid choices in art, bu=
=3D
t
> it is a whole lot harder to create a really good completely non-objective
> abstract painting than it is to copy reality. =3DA0Let's give credit to H=
am=3D
ada
> for the sophistication of abstract design and symbolism in his work.
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Craft
> Tennessee Tech University
> vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
>
>
>
> --
>
--=3D20
----------------------------------------------------------
Lee Love on sat 21 aug 10
Here is an enlightening article which is an interview with my good
friend in Seattle, Tatsuo Tomeoka. He is also on the Claycraft list.
It might help us have a more factual discussion about ceramics in
Japan (pardon me Dannon, this appears in the Japanese American
magazine _Discover Nikkei*_ *Japanese decedents and their relatives:
http://www.discovernikkei.org/en/journal/article/3455/
MINGEI: Now and Then - Part 1
By Edward Moreno
8 Jun 2010
--
=3DA0Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
Randall Moody on sat 21 aug 10
On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 9:51 PM, Lee Love wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 7:46 PM, Randall Moody
> wrote:
>
>
> > I personally think
>
> It is a general parochial attitude we have developed about the
> rest of the world in the last 30 years. The wages of Empire, and the
> rot that comes from the insulating effect of a closed society, which
> breeds closed minds.
>
>
> --
> Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
> http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
>
> =3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
> the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
>
You can apply that same mental sludge to Japan or Iceland or many if not
most other countries. I have personal experience with "no gaijin allowed" i=
=3D
n
Japan and Iceland is notoriously protective of their culture. In fact it
seems that one of the few places on earth that will allow cultures from
anywhere freely is the place that you seem to fault.
It could also be said that your view of Japan and its influence on clay is
parochial (Having a limited or narrow outlook or scope.) since in just abou=
=3D
t
every thread you bring Japan or a Japanese into the mix while dismissing an=
=3D
y
criticism of Japan, Hamada and the like as "WASPish" or "parochial" rather
than the real reason being there are more sources for information and
opinions than simply a Japanese person and an obviously biased asiaphile.
--=3D20
Randall in Atlanta
http://wrandallmoody.com/home.html
paul gerhold on sat 21 aug 10
I really wish someone out there could explain what is so good about Hamada"=
s
work. Yes I have seen it in person and still don't really get it other tha=
n
perhaps a reference to pottery of days gone bye. And don't just tell me
brush work cause there are lots of painters out there who do that well.
Paul\
Robert Harris on sat 21 aug 10
Dear Lee,
I cannot see how I am being ignorant. I have certainly never claimed
to know anything about Japan. Equally I doubt you can claim to know
everything about all the world's clay cultures. Hence your comment
displays your own prejudice.
Robert
On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 12:19 AM, Lee Love wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 10:02 PM, Robert Harris =
=3D
wrote:
>> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 10:05 PM, Lee Love wrot=
=3D
e:
>>
>> "Ahead of ours" is rather a subjective judgment. Don't present you own
>> prejudices as fact.
>
> Don't present your ignorance as fact. =3DA0 =3DA0You know nothing about c=
lay
> culture in Japan. =3DA0 Few hobbyist here do.
>
>
>
> --
> --
> =3DA0Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
> http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
>
> =3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
> the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
>
--=3D20
----------------------------------------------------------
Lee Love on sat 21 aug 10
On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 10:38 AM, Robert Harris w=
=3D
rote:
> Dear Lee,
>
> I cannot see how I am being ignorant
I understand.
--=3D20
--
=3DA0Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
steve graber on sat 21 aug 10
=3D0A=3D0A=3D0Ai think aardvark and laguna clay have over 100 different cla=
ys ava=3D
ilable.=3DC2=3DA0 maybe =3D0Athey don't ship them all over usa and canada, =
but it=3D
sure is a wide selection of =3D0Athe clay pallet!=3DC2=3DA0 not including =
what w=3D
e can do with blending clays in our own =3D0Aworkshops!=3DC2=3DA0 =3D0A=3D0=
A=3D0Awe don=3D
't have "tea" per sey but do have coffee-beer-wine-whisky related reasons =
=3D
=3D0Ato sip and relax and generate some=3DC2=3DA0fine prose!=3D0A=3D0A=3DC2=
=3DA0Steve Gra=3D
ber, Graber's Pottery, Inc=3D0AClaremont, California USA=3D0AThe Steve Tool=
- f=3D
or awesome texture on pots! =3D0Awww.graberspottery.com steve@graberspotter=
y.=3D
com =3D0A=3D0A=3D0AOn Laguna Clay's website=3D0Ahttp://www.lagunaclay.com/b=
logs/ =3D
=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A----- Original Message ----=3D0A> From: Lee Love ershins@GM=3D
AIL.COM>=3D0A> To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG=3D0A> Sent: Fri, August 20, 201=
0 9:=3D
17:56 PM=3D0A> Subject: Re: romantic japanese writing=3D0A> =3D0A> On Fri, =
Aug 20=3D
, 2010 at 10:02 PM, Robert Harris =3D0A>wrote:=3D=
0A> =3D
> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 10:05 PM, Lee Love wrote=
=3D
:=3D0A> >=3D0A> > "Ahead of ours" ... Don't present you own=3D0A> > prejudi=
ces as=3D
fact.=3D0A> =3D0A> =3DC2=3DA0 =3DC2=3DA0 How would you know Robert, if you=
have no exp=3D
erience of the=3D0A> ceramic culture of Japan?=3DC2=3DA0 =3DC2=3DA0 Don't p=
resent you=3D
own ignorance as fact.=3D0A> =3D0A> =3DC2=3DA0 =3DC2=3DA0 The big advantag=
e they have =3D
that we have no counterpart in this=3D0A> country, is tea culture.=3DC2=3DA=
0 Tea =3D
promoted art and craft in unparalleled=3D0A> ways.=3D0A> =3D0A> =3DC2=3DA0 =
=3DC2=3DA0 Her=3D
e is an example:=3DC2=3DA0 In the Joyful Honda home improvement stores,=3D0=
A> the=3D
y have selections of clays, materials equipment and even modular=3D0A> stud=
io=3D
s, that put our clay stores to shame.=3DC2=3DA0 You can buy over 50=3D0A> k=
inds o=3D
f clay from all over Japan.=3D0A> -- =3D0A> --=3D0A> =3DC2=3DA0Lee, a Mashi=
ko potter =3D
in Minneapolis=3D0A> http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/=3D0A> =3D0A> =3DE2=3D8=
0=3D9CObserv=3D
e the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel=3D0A> the ar=
ti=3D
stry moving through and be silent.=3DE2=3D80=3D9D --Rumi=3D0A> =3D0A=3D0A=
=3D0A
Robert Harris on sat 21 aug 10
On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Lee Love wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 10:38 AM, Robert Harris =
wrote:
>> Dear Lee,
>>
>> I cannot see how I am being ignorant
>
> I understand.
What a malicious cut and paste job that is.
--
----------------------------------------------------------
Lee Love on sat 21 aug 10
On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 11:03 AM, steve graber wrote:
>
>
>
> i think aardvark and laguna clay have over 100 different clays available.
Steve, I was talking about a home improvement center. Not a clay
center. And most of the clays are natural clays, not ones formulated
from refined industrial materials.
It really is hard to get your head around it. Can you imagine
Home Depot with more clays than a claystore? Most specifically mined
for potters?
>we don't have "tea" per sey but do have coffee-beer-wine-whisky related
>reasons to sip and relax and generate some fine prose!
Tea culture is a totally different cup of tea. I am trying
to think of a counterpart in our culture. It is sort of like
secular religion. I've been studying the history of the Knights
Templars and the Freemasons. Maybe the Freemasons are the closest
we have to tea culture. I'll try to think of a better analogy.
Here is another quote from Found In Translation (the main thesis
being that cultures suffer creatively when they don't look outside
themselves):
Here in the United States, most potters have thought of Japanese ceramics i=
=3D
n
terms of the rustic tea-ceremony wares promoted by Rikyu, rather than the f=
=3D
ine
porcelain wares, such as Kutani and Arita, and the colorful work of Satsuma
and Imari. But there are many examples of influences from China and Korea.
In fact, the only seemingly indigenous Japanese pottery is from the Jomon e=
=3D
ra
(14,000 BC to 500 Ad). Recent archaeological discoveries in Korea, Russia, =
=3D
and
China, however, have shown that the Jomon culture existed on lands all
around the Japan Sea, so it is probably not correct to count Jomon as belon=
=3D
ging
only to the Japanese archipelago. There was a constant importing of technol=
=3D
ogy
and cultural knowledge from the continent beginning in at least the Yayoi
period (250 BC to 250 Ad). In the nineteenth century, when Japan was opened
to the West, the World Expositions in Europe and America were important
for the diffusion of culture to and from Japan. These exchanges helped insp=
=3D
ire
post-impressionist art in Europe and encouraged the preservation of Japanes=
=3D
e
art and craft by such people as Okakura Tenshin, Soetsu Yanagi, and Bernard
Leach, who were in turn influenced by William Morris and the European arts
and crafts movement.
--
=3DA0Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
Vince Pitelka on sat 21 aug 10
Paul Gerhold wrote:
"I really wish someone out there could explain what is so good about
Hamada"s
work. Yes I have seen it in person and still don't really get it other tha=
n
perhaps a reference to pottery of days gone bye. And don't just tell me
brush work cause there are lots of painters out there who do that well."
Paul -
I think the most important thing is to view it in context. That's true of
all art, of course, and the mere act of appreciating art need not have
anything at all to do with whether or not we like it personally and would
want to have it in our home. It has more to do with learning about what th=
e
work accomplishes, the artist who created it, and the context of its
creation. As a potter central to the Mingei Movement - the
early-20th-century revival and celebration of folk crafts in Japan after th=
e
Meiji Restoration and the partial westernization of Japanese culture, Hamad=
a
is very important. Hamada and Kawai were really quite Post-Modern in their
studio practice, because they picked and chose style and influence not only
from Japanese tradition, but from historical and contemporary China, Korea,
and England, and because their work is so eclectic, rather then being
defined by one tight style. I find much of Hamada's work to present an
abrupt and dramatic statement, like a Franz Klein Abstract Expressionist
painting. Sudden marks and quick brush strokes always look easy, but it
takes a real master to execute them with authority and effectiveness.
Within the philosophy and practice of Japanese tea culture, such form and
decoration is especially prized.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Vince Pitelka on sat 21 aug 10
Steve Graber wrote:
"I think Aardvark and Laguna clay have over 100 different clays =3D
available. Maybe they don't ship them all over usa and canada, but it =3D
sure is a wide selection of the clay pallet, not including what we can =3D
do with blending clays in our own workshops! We don't have "tea" per sey =
=3D
but do have coffee-beer-wine-whisky related reasons to sip and relax and =
=3D
generate some fine prose!"
Steve -=3D20
Those things are all true, and I like the idea of generating prose from =3D
our own utilitarian rituals, but this isn't really an appropriate =3D
comparison to the situation in Japan. My son has spent a lot of time =3D
over there, and I have studied Japanese ceramics and tea culture to a =3D
very limited extent. As you may know, my son is a scholar of medieval =3D
Japanese ceramics and tea culture, on the faculty at UNC Chapel Hill. =3D
The use and appreciation of handmade ceramics is so deeply-rooted in =3D
Japanese culture and history, and there is no good comparison in North =3D
America. =3D20
One of Morgan's first letters from Japan back in 1992 contained an =3D
excited narration of the sales displays of thrown and handbuilt ceramics =
=3D
in all the good department stores. The understanding, appreciation, and =
=3D
acceptance of hand-made ceramics in North America is so minimal compared =
=3D
to Japan and Korea. I did enjoy Lee's description of the ceramic =3D
supplies and clays available in Japanese home improvement stores. Can =3D
you imagine such a thing in Home Depot?=3D20
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
=3D20
Lee Love on sat 21 aug 10
On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 9:10 AM, paul gerhold wr=
=3D
ote:
> I really wish someone out there could explain what is so good about Hamad=
=3D
a"s
> work.
Paul, it sounds like you don't like his work. Unless you are simply
baiting us, let's hear your thoughts about Hamada.
Here is something I wrote about him recently (excuse me if I
posted it here already):
My understanding of how new traditions
developed in Japan paralleled what
I recognized in Hamada and Shimaoka=3D92s
work. My initial take on Hamada when
I was in America was that he was an
educated person who went to Mashiko
and made the folk pottery he found
there. When I was able to study traditional
Mashiko work made before
Hamada=3D92s arrival and compare it to
his work at the Mingeikan folk craft
museum in Tokyo, at his museum in
Mashiko, and at gallery sales, I realized
that he brought to Mashiko shapes he
was exposed to during his studies and
travels to China, Korea, Europe, and
the rest of the world. Before Hamada,
Mashiko was known for kitchen crockery
and storage jars; it was a kind of
Redwing Pottery of Japan. It was Hamada
who brought tableware and tea-ceremony
ware to Mashiko.
--
=3DA0Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
Lee Love on sat 21 aug 10
On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 4:21 PM, paul gerhold wr=
=3D
ote:
> But for my taste give me Greek Attic pots any old time.
That certainly is a different kind of pot. I've always thought
the decoration on them was far more important than the form.
I can understand why your tastes do not include Hamada.
--=3D20
--
=3DA0Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
Lee Love on sat 21 aug 10
On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Vince Pitelka wrote:
>I did enjoy Lee's description of the ceramic supplies and clays available =
=3D
in Japanese >home improvement stores. =3DA0Can you imagine such a thing in =
Ho=3D
me Depot?
It is pretty incredible. They have such a large ceramic hobby
population and that helps provide potter specific materials and
equipment. If we had such a large hobby base, we'd probably be able
to buy studio microwave kilns from Panasonic and the Shimpo hybrid
electric/gas kilns here.
But the sad thing, is because they are not looking outside of
Japan for inspiration like they have for thousands of years,
functional pottery is loosing vitality there. I believe we have more
vitality in our pottery community in the USA than they do in Japan.
I put up images of the clay section of the craft floor at Joyful
Honda at Utsunomiya:
http://togei.blogspot.com/
--
=3DA0Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
paul gerhold on sat 21 aug 10
Lee,
Well, yes I am kind of baiting you all , but no I really don't dislike his
work. I just find it kind of pedestrian with fairly mediocre glazes and an
occasional nice brushstroke. The work to me is sort of OK and I probably
would put plants in it to make it look better. If what you all are saying
is that it's validity is due to its historical context than I probably coul=
d
accept that if I cared enough to study the history of Japanese ceramics
which I don't cause I have my own pots to make.
I read a quote the other day that says " the essence of an artwork lies no=
t
in it's appearance but in it's context and its function within a system of
meaning". Given the possible validity of this maybe Hamada is important bu=
t
then a whole lot of other work is not.
But for my taste give me Greek Attic pots any old time.
Paul
Vince Pitelka on sat 21 aug 10
Paul Gerhold wrote:
"But for my taste give me Greek Attic pots any old time."
Hi Paul. I can certainly appreciate Greek Attic pots. I find them
wondrous in their aesthetic and technology, but they are so specific, and
often so stiff. If you look at the earlier Black Figure work of Exekias,
then you see some of the finest ceramic work ever done in any tradition,
but so often in later Attic pots the potter was not the vase-painter, and
the painted image was inappropriately positioned on the pot. It is
understandable how that happened, but still a shame when one compares
those works with other examples where the surface decoration really
embraces the form, as in the earlier Aegean Minoan octopus jars, or in th=
=3D
e
intricately-filled surfaces of pots from the Geometric and Orientalizing
periods of Greek pots.
To me, saying "Give me Greek Attic pots any old time" in comparison to
pots by Shoji Hamada would be just the same as looking at Abstract
Expressionist paintings by Jackson Pollack and saying "Give me John
Constable landscapes any old time." It sort of completely misses the
point. It might be true from a purely personal point of view and sense o=
=3D
f
taste, but it doesn't do much for one's open-minded appreciation of art.=3D=
20
When I taught art appreciation in North Dakota, my primary messages at th=
=3D
e
start of the class were "open your eyes and your mind to new
possibilities," and (as I said in a previous post) appreciation of art ha=
=3D
s
very little to do with whether you personally like it or would want it in
your home. Whether or not you like the work is pretty irrelevant to any
discussion of the aesthetics or importance of Hamada's work. It matters
very much to me what you like personally - I am always interested in that=
=3D
,
but for the larger discussion of ceramics, it is important to give credit
to Hamada and the great Japanese potters of the modern era, as well as to
the great Greek vase painters, most of whom are anonymous.
Tangential to this discussion but still important to an appreciation of
Classical Greek pots in comparison to the rest of the history of art is
the concept that the Greeks set the stage for finely-honed pictorial
realism as an expression of the noble ideals of Classical humanism -
truth, beauty, heroism, etc. Subsequently, Classical adherence to
pictorial realism as an ultimate goal was adopted in painting and
sculpture during the late Gothic period in Germany and Italy as Christian
humanism, and was supercharged by the force of the Catholic Church during
the Italian Renaissance, and thus became an ideal of Western art. In
fact, it is far more natural and intuitive to interpret and abstract one'=
=3D
s
surroundings in art, rather than just copying reality, which at its most
basic level is just a matter of skill involving little creativity. This
has been much studied and confirmed. Kids abstract art naturally and
intuitively until we screw up that inclination with some sort of perverse
dogma about pictorial realism. Please understand that I have nothing
against pictorial realism, and it is one of many valid choices in art, bu=
=3D
t
it is a whole lot harder to create a really good completely non-objective
abstract painting than it is to copy reality. Let's give credit to Hamad=
=3D
a
for the sophistication of abstract design and symbolism in his work.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
--=3D20
Robert Harris on sun 22 aug 10
If you think that Constable could "just" make things look like a photo
please look a bit more at his later work. It was very impressionistic.
I don't think he was just a technical hack as you imply. What is even
more interesting for me is that he often painted two full size (3ft X
4ft some of them) paintings. One was a very impressionistic sketch,
the other tightened up, no doubt for his clients. I wonder which he
preferred? I have been lucky enough to visit several exhibitions of
his work at the National Gallery in London where they had put these
two side by side. As he grew older both his sketches and his finished
work grew less and less tight. By the end of his life his finished
work looked looked like the sketches of his youth.
Pollock was lucky to live in an age when rich collectors were willing
to pay for alcohol induced paint slinging. Same with Voulkos. In the
18th century there were no photographs, rich people wanted to be
reminded of rural idyll. I'm sure that he painted what would sell.
What would Pollock Voulkos has done or sold during the Revolutionary
period?
Robert
2010/8/22 Ric Swenson :
> IMHO Pollack knew paint the way Voulkos knew clay.=3DA0 Both abstract
> expressionists.=3DA0 They knew their media and tried to grow it beyond th=
e
> traditional.
>
> Constable was a technician...a genre painter. He knew how to make paint l=
=3D
ook
> like a photo.=3DA0 That is just a skill...not a creative act.=3DA0 Anyone=
can=3D
learn
> to draw...or paint...or throw.
>
> =3DA0Try to make something new?
>
>
> Appreciate what you like.
>
> It's your choice.
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Ric
>
>
>
>
> "...then fiery expedition be my wing, ..."
>
> -Wm. Shakespeare, RICHARD III, Act IV Scene III
>
>
>
> Richard H. ("Ric") Swenson, Teacher,
> Office of International Cooperation and Exchange of Jingdezhen Ceramic
> Institute,
> TaoYang Road, Eastern Suburb, Jingdezhen City.
> JiangXi Province, P.R. of China.
> Postal code 333001.
>
>
> Mobile/cellular phone : 86 13767818872
>
>
> < RicSwenson0823@hotmail.com>
>
> http://www.jci.jx.cn
>
>
>
>
>> Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 23:19:34 -0400
>> From: robertgharris@GMAIL.COM
>> Subject: Re: romantic japanese writing
>> To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>>
>> Personally I have always found Constable to be one of the artists
>> whose painting I can sit in front of for hours. Perhaps because I grew
>> up with the scenery which he painted - which is very different from an
>> American landscape.
>>
>> Jackson Pollack just makes me want to take two aspirin and lie down.
>> To each his own. Just because kids do something naturally doesn't mean
>> it's any more "real, dude".
>>
>> In fact I think it goes back to the whole exposition about needing
>> craftsmanship for art. What Constable did represents a lot more
>> craftsmanship. On the other hand I particularly love his full size oil
>> "sketches", which for me kicked Monet's impressionist ass half a
>> century before Monet was even born. Of course it is these
>> impressionistic sketches which pull away from the "realism" you talk
>> about. However they still show a master craftsman, something I am not
>> convinced that Pollack does. Of course I've never been to art school
>> so I'm sure some erudite art critic can tell me exactly how much craft
>> Pollack had....
>>
>>
>> No doubt I've been culturally indoctrinated. However I do realize that
>> I have (do you? I think everyone has been indoctrinated by a
>> particular culture at some point) but I make no apologies for it.
>> On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 10:19 PM, Vince Pitelka
>> wrote:
>> > Paul Gerhold wrote:
>> > "But for my taste give me Greek Attic pots any old time."
>> >
>> > Hi Paul. =3DA0I can certainly appreciate Greek Attic pots. =3DA0I find=
the=3D
m
>> > wondrous in their aesthetic and technology, but they are so specific,
>> > and
>> > often so stiff. =3DA0If you look at the earlier Black Figure work of
>> > Exekias,
>> > then you see some of the finest ceramic work ever done in any traditio=
=3D
n,
>> > but so often in later Attic pots the potter was not the vase-painter,
>> > and
>> > the painted image was inappropriately positioned on the pot. It is
>> > understandable how that happened, but still a shame when one compares
>> > those works with other examples where the surface decoration really
>> > embraces the form, as in the earlier Aegean Minoan octopus jars, or in
>> > the
>> > intricately-filled surfaces of pots from the Geometric and Orientalizi=
=3D
ng
>> > periods of Greek pots.
>> >
>> > To me, saying "Give me Greek Attic pots any old time" in comparison to
>> > pots by Shoji Hamada would be just the same as looking at Abstract
>> > Expressionist paintings by Jackson Pollack and saying "Give me John
>> > Constable landscapes any old time." =3DA0It sort of completely misses =
th=3D
e
>> > point. =3DA0It might be true from a purely personal point of view and =
se=3D
nse
>> > of
>> > taste, but it doesn't do much for one's open-minded appreciation of ar=
=3D
t.
>> > When I taught art appreciation in North Dakota, my primary messages at
>> > the
>> > start of the class were "open your eyes and your mind to new
>> > possibilities," and (as I said in a previous post) appreciation of art
>> > has
>> > very little to do with whether you personally like it or would want it
>> > in
>> > your home. =3DA0Whether or not you like the work is pretty irrelevant =
to=3D
any
>> > discussion of the aesthetics or importance of Hamada's work. =3DA0It m=
at=3D
ters
>> > very much to me what you like personally - I am always interested in
>> > that,
>> > but for the larger discussion of ceramics, it is important to give
>> > credit
>> > to Hamada and the great Japanese potters of the modern era, as well as
>> > to
>> > the great Greek vase painters, most of whom are anonymous.
>> >
>> > Tangential to this discussion but still important to an appreciation o=
=3D
f
>> > Classical Greek pots in comparison to the rest of the history of art i=
=3D
s
>> > the concept that the Greeks set the stage for finely-honed pictorial
>> > realism as an expression of the noble ideals of Classical humanism -
>> > truth, beauty, heroism, etc. =3DA0Subsequently, Classical adherence to
>> > pictorial realism as an ultimate goal was adopted in painting and
>> > sculpture during the late Gothic period in Germany and Italy as
>> > Christian
>> > humanism, and was supercharged by the force of the Catholic Church
>> > during
>> > the Italian Renaissance, and thus became an ideal of Western art. =3DA=
0I=3D
n
>> > fact, it is far more natural and intuitive to interpret and abstract
>> > one's
>> > surroundings in art, rather than just copying reality, which at its mo=
=3D
st
>> > basic level is just a matter of skill involving little creativity. =3D=
A0=3D
This
>> > has been much studied and confirmed. =3DA0Kids abstract art naturally =
an=3D
d
>> > intuitively until we screw up that inclination with some sort of
>> > perverse
>> > dogma about pictorial realism. =3DA0Please understand that I have noth=
in=3D
g
>> > against pictorial realism, and it is one of many valid choices in art,
>> > but
>> > it is a whole lot harder to create a really good completely
>> > non-objective
>> > abstract painting than it is to copy reality. =3DA0Let's give credit t=
o
>> > Hamada
>> > for the sophistication of abstract design and symbolism in his work.
>> > - Vince
>> >
>> > Vince Pitelka
>> > Appalachian Center for Craft
>> > Tennessee Tech University
>> > vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
>> > http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
--=3D20
----------------------------------------------------------
Vince Pitelka on sun 22 aug 10
Robert Harris wrote:
"Personally I have always found Constable to be one of the artists
whose painting I can sit in front of for hours. Perhaps because I grew
up with the scenery which he painted - which is very different from an
American landscape."
Hi Robert. I would agree with you on that. Some of Constable's
landscapes, and some of the Barbizon paintings - there is so much in the
image - so much life and energy. When I was in grad school taking a clas=
=3D
s
on European 19th century art I did a paper on a particular painting by th=
=3D
e
Barbizon painter Diaz de la Pena. The painting was at the Smith College
art museum, and I had the most wonderful time just staring into the depth=
=3D
s
of that "forest interior," discovering more and more. There was so much
there.
You wrote:
"Jackson Pollack just makes me want to take two aspirin and lie down. To
each his own."
There was so much variety in Pollack's work through his career, from the
paintings most influenced by his teacher, Thomas Hart Benton, to the drip
paintings done shortly before his suicide. I do find his later drip
paintings formulaic and gimmicky, but much of his earlier, more
expressionistic work I find very powerful. I am not trying to convince
you, and I expect that there is plenty of abstract art that you like, but
for anyone else who finds a challenge in seeing the "art" in abstraction,
I would offer the following. Completely abstract, non-objective art, or
art that does not tell a literal, pictorial story, is like an instrumenta=
=3D
l
composition in music, or music that does not have words. An instrumental
piece of music is a composition of tone, pitch, volume, rhythm,
repetition, unity, variety, etc. An abstract piece of art is a
composition of line, plane, shape, color, value, pattern texture, unity,
variety, etc. Why is it that so many people in the contemporary world ca=
=3D
n
so easily accept instrumental compositions in music, and yet have trouble
with abstract compositions in art? Again, I am not implying that this
refers to you, but simply putting forward some thoughts on the subject.
You wrote:
Just because kids do something naturally doesn't mean it's any more "real=
=3D
,
dude".
I have no idea what that means, Robert. What does it mean? What could
possibly be more real than the uncorrupted, natural, expression of a
child? The art-making behavior of children has been extensively
researched by child psychologists and observed by millions of parents and
other observers, and it is a basic truth that children abstract and
interpret what they see in their surrounds, and do it very naturally and
intuitively. That is how they make art, and if they are encouraged to
continue with that, they will soon develop a strong sense of abstract
composition that will serve them very well, whether they choose to make
abstract or realist art. Every successful painting or sculpture, whether
realistic or abstract, benefits from the same principles of composition.=3D=
20
In tribal cultures and many Asian cultures, children receive no pressure
to make realistic art, and a remarkable number of them end up developing
advanced artistic ability and think of themselves as artists. In our
culture, well-meaning parents, peers, and teachers often corrupt the
natural inclination to abstract and interpret imagery by telling children
that art should be realistic in order to be good, which is of course
ridiculous. Pictorial realism is just one choice, and to be successful i=
=3D
t
relies on abstract composition.
You said that what Constable did represents a lot more craftsmanship, and
I would question that. Constable's work represents an extraordinary leve=
=3D
l
of craftsmanship, but the work of so many abstract painters show similar
accomplishment in terms of mastery of the medium. It might be harder for
some people to see, because it is not clearly tied to the narration of a
specific pictorial subject, but the most important thing in art is the
experiential power, rather than the literal story being told. In
pictorial art, a literal story being told very well can have great
experiential power, but only if the artist really has control of the
craftsmanship, as Constable did.
You said:
"Of course I've never been to art school so I'm sure some erudite art
critic can tell me exactly how much craft
Pollack had....
Robert, I know you were probably saying that with tongue in cheek, and a
smile on your face, but it is often hard to tell in email. Those kinds o=
=3D
f
comments are likely to shut people up and prevent them from offering
information that you might find very interesting and valuable. No one
here cares whether or not you went to art school. The only thing that
matters is that you appreciate art, have opinions on it, and are willing
to discuss it, and I get the impression that all those things are true in
your case.
You wrote:
"No doubt I've been culturally indoctrinated. However I do realize that I
have (do you? I think everyone has been indoctrinated by a particular
culture at some point) but I make no apologies for it."
I think you are right. I think we have all been culturally indoctrinated
to some extent, but perhaps the challenge in appreciating art, and in
generally getting along in the world, is to not allow our cultural
indoctrination to close our eyes and make us intolerant. From all your
posts, you do not seem intolerant, and in fact you seem curious and
inquisitive. But it is so easy for any of us to condemn or reject things
that we have not taken the time to understand, or that we think we do not
like. So many people approach abstract art (or even all art) very
self-consciously, sometimes with a bit of an inferiority complex, thinkin=
=3D
g
that they do not have the tools to understand and appreciate the work.=3D20
They are missing the point. At the risk of sounding like a broken record=
=3D
,
the only things required to appreciate art are open eyes and an open mind=
=3D
.
Then, when something confuses us or repels us or appeals to us or excite=
=3D
s
us, we can look further, investigating the context and origin of the work
and the life of the artist. After a few years of that, we start to know =
=3D
a
lot about art, whether or not we have ever taken a class in studio art or
art history.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
--=3D20
Robert Harris on sun 22 aug 10
> You said:
> "Of course I've never been to art school so I'm sure some erudite art
> critic can tell me exactly how much craft
> Pollack had....
>
> Robert, I know you were probably saying that with tongue in cheek, and a
> smile on your face, but it is often hard to tell in email. =3DA0Those kin=
ds=3D
of
> comments are likely to shut people up and prevent them from offering
> information that you might find very interesting and valuable. =3DA0No on=
e
> here cares whether or not you went to art school. =3DA0The only thing tha=
t
> matters is that you appreciate art, have opinions on it, and are willing
> to discuss it, and I get the impression that all those things are true in
> your case.
>
Vince - yes I was saying that tongue in cheek, and with a smile on my
face. Almost everyone on clayart is willing to talk on a reasonable
rational level. Yes, I appreciate art, yes I have opinions on art
(which I hope are introspectively produced) and most important I am
willing to listen to other people's opinions and try to see what they
see in art that I do not yet like. On the other hand I have been
"lectured" to by self-appointed critics who hide behind credentials
rather than addressing points of subjectivity head on.
Why I wonder, am I labelled ignorant (or at least shallow) because I
find Constables work more compelling than Pollock's? Sometimes I think
this is no more than indoctrination of a different kind. Newer is
better? (I'm not implying that you have been doing that - or anyone
else on ClayArt - but I have come across it.) Part of the problem is
there is little concrete in abstract work that can be pointed to as
why someone likes it. With Breugel for example there are hundreds of
little details to admire and to point out to others. There is one
glorious painting of galloping horses in the National Gallery (London)
that I can point to because it somehow encompasses the spirit (and
power) of the horse.
Another painting that is getting a lot more abstract is this one
http://www.southampton.gov.uk/s-leisure/artsheritage/sotonartgallery/search=
=3D
/view-artwork.asp?acc_num=3D3D10/1984
which was at a local gallery where I went to college. It is easy to
see that it is a knight with a lance and banner in a small picture but
if you look at the dimensions it is 9 1/2ft X 8ft, at which size (and
in the room it's in) it looks a lot more abstract. It has a couple of
depths to it in that the way the lance is held leads it to being
quartered like a coat of arms. There is obviously serious thought and
intent to it.
However with abstract expressionism there is less that you can
concretely say about why you like it (or dislike it).
When it comes to abstract art it is a lot more difficult to point to
something particular. Any emotions that it invokes are going to be a
lot less easy to explain.
In your posts to John (Post) you say
"It is an aberration of European/Mediterranean-based Western culture
that so many people think that realistic pictorial art is somehow more
appropriate or correct, and it is a tremendous disservice to children
when well-meaning parents, peers, or teachers try to steer them
towards realistic, pictorial art."
From my point of view you do not seem to back up why pictorial art is
less appropriate or abstract expressionism is more appropriate. What
are the reasons behind your fundamental philosophy of art? Why do YOU
personally believe this? I like Constable because gives me a sense of
piece and beauty and I can revel in it. I enjoy looking at it. It
makes me happy. These may seem shallow and trite reason to some
people, but I want to be a happy person. Why do you like abstract art?
What does it do for you personally?
I'm not being facetious I'm truly interested in the (subjective)
reasons for your opinions. Perhaps if I understand these I can
appreciate art (in general) a lot more.
Again this e-mail is just a few rambling thoughts - please don't
interpret any of these as malicious jabs.
Robert
Vince Pitelka on sun 22 aug 10
Hi Robert -
I appreciate your introspective writing, and your willingness to openly
and honestly express your own opinions about art. One point I want to
make clear - in none of my writings did I ever say that I like abstract
art better than realistic art, or that pictorial art is less appropriate
and that Abstract Expressionism or any abstraction is more appropriate.=3D2=
0
Please be careful not to read into my writing things that are not there.
I appreciate almost all art, because my appreciation of art is not tied t=
=3D
o
advanced training in a particular field of art history, or to what I woul=
=3D
d
want to place in my own home. I am very passionate about art and
art-making. I taught art appreciation and art history for three years at
NDSU in Fargo, and I think I had a distinct advantage in that I had never
been trained as an art historian. I had taken a lot of art history
classes just because of my own hunger and curiosity. So, I had no
prejudices about which art is better or more sophisticated, and approache=
=3D
d
it all with an open mind. Within the Tri-College system in the Red River
Valley, I had students from Concordia College and Moorhead State
University coming over to NDSU to take my art history survey courses, and
I regularly had faculty from throughout NDSU taking both my art history
and art appreciation courses.
The concept that abstraction is a more natural way to make art and the
concept that a primary focus on pictorial realism is something of a
Western aberration are not my opinion. They are widely researched and
widely published concepts that I happen to agree with. I did write about
this in a post several days ago, so I apologize for repeating myself.=3D20
Tribal cultures almost never make realistic art, because they see no poin=
=3D
t
to it. The exceptions are when the art is "empowered" by realism, as wit=
=3D
h
a realistic image of a bison on a cave wall improving the chances of
success in the next hunt. The abstraction in tribal art is an extension
of how children naturally make art - abstracting and interpreting their
surroundings and experiences rather than copying reality. Much tribally
art is extraordinarily sophisticated in terms of abstract composition,
because the artists develop such an advanced sense of composition from an
early age. The same is true in many Asian countries where there is no
particular focus on the pictorial realism of the photograph - instead,
abstract composition plays a very important part in creating the image,
even when it is realistic. Everywhere I have taught, I have periodically
had East Asian students in my art classes - students who are not
necessarily art majors, and they almost always have a far more advanced
sense of abstract composition than students who have been through the
minimal art background we receive in K-12 school in North America.
In ancient Greek culture, pictorial realism came to represent the great
ideals of Classical humanism - truth, beauty, honesty, courage, etc. Tha=
=3D
t
is the great precedent for the realist art of European-based Western
culture. During the late Gothic and the Renaissance, realism was promote=
=3D
d
as representing the great ideals of Christian humanism, and pictorial
realism as a standard was supercharged by the force of the Catholic
church. So, with Classical Greek art and Italian Renaissance art seen as
two of the ultimate pinnacles of Western art, is it any wonder that
Western culture is so focused on (or obsessed with) pictorial realism?
As I said, all of what I am saying here has been very widely researched
and published, and none of it implies that abstraction is better than
pictorial realism. Instead, it points out that there is a huge hole in
Western art where abstraction ought to be through the whole history of
Western art since ancient Greece. There's no real balance between
abstraction and realism until you get to the 20th century, and even now
there are such large segments of the population who do not understand or
appreciate abstract art.
Robert, anyone who labels you as ignorant or shallow because you prefer
Constable to Pollock is to be ignored. Don't take it personally, because
it only reflects poorly on your critic.
You wrote:
Part of the problem is there is little concrete in abstract work that can
be pointed to as why someone likes it. With Breugel for example there are
hundreds of little details to admire and to point out to others.
And:
"However with abstract expressionism there is less that you can concretel=
=3D
y
say about why you like it (or dislike it). When it comes to abstract art
it is a lot more difficult to point to something particular. Any emotions
that it invokes are going to be a lot less easy to explain.
People who have taken the time to seriously investigate and appreciate
abstract art usually don't have any problem explaining what they like or
dislike about it and why. As with any learned field of knowledge, it is
very easy to talk about abstract art once you learn about it, and in some
ways it is easier than discussing really good pictorial art.
Did you read my comparison between abstract art and instrumental music?=3D2=
0
Regarding your statements above, do you feel the same things apply to
instrumental music? They should apply equally, because they are both
forms of abstraction. At some point I hope you will have the opportunity
to take courses in 2-D design, 3-D design, and the history of 20th centur=
=3D
y
art at a local college. In those courses you would learn the language of
visual composition as it applies to both pictorial realism and
abstraction, and you would learn about the motivation and influences
behind 20th century abstraction.
I hope that this does not sound condescending in any way, because I would
not want that. I can tell that you have the interest in art, and through
all my experience teaching art, I have seen hundreds of people open up to
the experiential power of abstraction. I have never tried to convince
anyone that abstraction is in any way better than pictorial realism, I
just want to see both given a fair shake in the understanding and
appreciation fo art, and I would love to see children have the opportunit=
=3D
y
to learn art naturally, instead of being convinced that they cannot be
artists unless they can draw realistically at an early age. When that
happens, it is a serious subversion of effective art education, and it
denies our culture legions of young people who would otherwise come to
think of themselves as artists.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
--=3D20
Eleanor on mon 23 aug 10
> Robert Harris said:
> Jackson Pollack just makes me want to take two aspirin and lie down.
Disclaimer: I'm not an Artist, Art Teacher, Art Critic, Art Historian
or any kind of "Expert".
I look at a lot of Art, some I like, some I don't like. I like
Picasso, I don't like Pollack. And I'm selective about what I read and
don't read on Clayart so I have not read all of the posts on this
subject.
Recently, at Greenport, at the East End of Long Island, NY, I saw an
example of a modern version of the CAMERA OBSCURA, housed in its own
building and motorized. It projected a 360 degree view of the
surrounding neighborhood.
The Camera Obscura employs a lens which projects an image onto, say, a
canvas. The Artist can then paint the image and with skillful mixing
of the paints and good brushwork, produce a painting that is
"photographic".
Apparently the device was in general use by Artists from about the
15th century on. Leonardo DaVinci mentions it; it was briefly referred
to in the movie The Girl With The Pearl Earring -- used by Jan Vermeer.
It is said Michaelangelo did not use it.
All of this is detailed in David Hockney's book SECRET KNOWLEDGE, full
of beautiful color illustrations and extensively documented.
Hockney theorizes that once photographs taken by camera came on the
scene, Artists abandoned the use of lenses and Modern Art was born.
Sounds logical to me.
Modern Art requires the Artist to know how to draw, how to translate
what he sees to the canvas or paper. The translation doesn't
necessarily produce something "realistic" but in many cases it
produces a work which speaks to the viewer and reveals the inner eye
of the Artist.
As Dannon Rhudy pointed out, learning to draw involves diligent
practice. Some can do it, many can't. Picasso could, Pollack couldn't
(I saw some Pollock's early representational work--awful stuff--no
wonder he went to spattering).
Once at a Monet exhibition I accidently looked at his paintings from
the other end of the gallery and saw a depth and realism not visible
up close. In the Hockney book, he asks the reader to look at a
distance at some apples by Cezanne. Uncanny---they become three
dimensional!
As for modern Non-objective Art----no comment.
My bottom line: A course in Art Appreciation might be interesting and
informative and reading a book or two might be useful but they're not
necessary for developing a love of Art. All you need to do is LOOK. If
you like what you see, keep looking. If you don't like what you see,
walk away.
Eleanor Kohler
Centerport, NY
".... philosophers lay down many precepts fair in argument but not
applicable in use"
--Sir Francis Bacon
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