Snail Scott on sun 29 aug 10
On Aug 29, 2010, at 1:37 PM, Fabienne McMillan wrote:
> ...I heard that people who design their own
> ware are excluded from art fairs or any type of art and/or craft shows
> _because_ they slip cast even when it's their own design, homemade
> slip and glazes, etc...
Craft fairs fought for many years to only show
original work, and keep out the kit-based stuff.
For people that works from kits and commercial
molds as hobbyists, there are actually levels of
this stuff. My local state fair had separate categories
for stuff made from molds or kits, and stuff 'modified'
from molds/kits. For these folks, the fact that they
picked all the colors themselves instead of following
the instruction sheet or leaflet illustration is all the
originality that's needed, so the fair folks tended to
take an absolute exclusion stance. They also sought
to exclude work that was basically manufactured,
even if the designer and manufacturer were one and
the same, so as to not look like a flea market booth
selling piles of identical stuff. Craft and hobby mold
work and purchased greenware are on the wane
nowadays, and more people are using molds as a
tool for original work that is not just mass production,
but it's tough to write show rules that allow for one
and not the other, as much of the difference lies in
intent and style as well as quantity, and difficult to
define in a way that won't result in many, many
complaints from those excluded. In some quarters,
the very word 'ceramics' is seen to apply solely to
slip-cast work, leading to blanket exclusions of
'ceramics' even when 'clay' or 'pottery' are accepted.
I've seen a few shows, usually run by well-intentioned
local groups as a fundraiser, where competent original
works in all media were surrounded by needlepoint
pictures worked over printed patterns, purchased
ceramic ware decorated with mass-market decals, and
leathercrafts all done to the Tandy pattern layout. That's
what they are trying to avoid.
If I were running such a show, I could see the appeal
of such a blanket exclusion even if it lost me some
good exhibitors, just to avoid the hassle. Sad but true.
Casting is a really useful tool to achieve results that can't
(or can't readily) be achieved by other means, and the
result can be real art, and real craft. On the bright side,
these exclusions are mostly a craft-fair thing. Galleries,
shops and other venues which evaluate work on a case-
by-case basis (and aren't forced to formulate general
policies) tend to be quite receptive of interesting work
by any method.
-Snail
Fabienne McMillan on sun 29 aug 10
Since I'm stuck without a studio, the local community college had a
fire in their kiln room so they are closed this semester, I am doing
more reading and specifically on slip casting which has caught my
attention. What has also caught my attention is the stigma that is
surrounding it.
I'm not very far into reading and I've been reading about the
technical aspect of it, but it's interesting to see how the prologues/
intros are littered with comments on how slip casting is viewed at
large. From the little I know, in a nutshell, industrialization of
ceramics came about and mass production of ceramic items came about
with the use of slip casting making it affordable, etc. Bernard Leach
seems to be the one that brought the potter back in the studio and
value to the handmade items. He was said to hate slip casting, but
slip casting was just the tool of ceramics industrialization, thus
what he truly hated was mass production/industrialization/
mechanization, not slip casting per se (BL used a wheel, that doesn'
t seem to bother him though); however, ignorance in that department
prevails and, thus, slip casting retains the stigma -- also because
there are individual buying commercial molds and commercial glaze
(most likely metallic black and pearl white) to make their ware who
multiply angels or unicorns, for example, but imo those are rather
obvious to spot out from the ppl who design their ware and use mold,
casting slip and even a commercial glaze.
To take it a step further, I heard that people who design their own
ware are excluded from art fairs or any type of art and/or craft shows
_because_ they slip cast even when it's their own design, homemade
slip and glazes, etc. It seems like ignorance to me. However, press
molds are used all the time and since the beginning of time and that
doesn't seem to bother anyone. Darn industrialization that gave
casting slip a bad name is what it seems to be all about to me and
education seems to be in order.
Any comments? Thanks,
Fabienne
"We never touch people so lightly that we do not leave a trace." ~
Peggy Tabor Millin
phil on sun 29 aug 10
Hi Fabianne,
I love the idea of Slip Casting.
If I were a practing and productive Potter, there are forms I would
initially throw and or Hand-form, assemble and perfect, and, then, making a
Mold from the candidate-select entity, I would Slip Cast runs from there.
Anything we can think of has been abused by some segment of the
populous or of manufacturers/service-providers...or, for having been abused=
,
acquires superficial or emotionalized
conotation which presumes to define the whole, dismissively, or which which
forgets all
but the superficial onjections to the objectionable versions.
Oh well...
In the 18th and 19th Cenruty, many small and practical Potters used Slip
Casting.
It was pretty well always the resort when making Table sets of Matching
individual Settings.
Is it appropriate for everything?
Of course not.
Is it appropriate for some things?
Absolutely!
As are Press Molds...
Sprig Ware of course is also along this way of making, even if limited to
the
secondary and ornamental details.
As far as Slip Cast functional Ware, or, Slip Cast Art Pottery or Slip Cast
Objects of
Art, if one does not make the candidate-select entity, and then make one's
Mold from it, then possibly that is the point at which a Catagoirically
different ethos or consideration is embraced, one I myself would have no
interest to enter as far as the Work then, being my Work thoroughly.
This then is some of what one would wish to make clear to others, and or to
potentially interested Customers...so they may understand the condition and
not confuse it with other departures or variations.
And also, as far as small producers/Potters/Potterys are concerned, as we
know, that is
where some of the frustration has occurred, in the overview of what
qualified the degree and kind of involvement, a Maker or tier of
co-operating operatives, have actually given or brough to the task.
Not that an object might not still be meritorious...but, that an initial
buyer should be informed of process in these things, for them to understand
what went into the object in question...and by who's Hand.
Phil
Lv
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fabienne McMillan"
> Since I'm stuck without a studio, the local community college had a
> fire in their kiln room so they are closed this semester, I am doing
> more reading and specifically on slip casting which has caught my
> attention. What has also caught my attention is the stigma that is
> surrounding it.
>
> I'm not very far into reading and I've been reading about the
> technical aspect of it, but it's interesting to see how the prologues/
> intros are littered with comments on how slip casting is viewed at
> large. From the little I know, in a nutshell, industrialization of
> ceramics came about and mass production of ceramic items came about
> with the use of slip casting making it affordable, etc. Bernard Leach
> seems to be the one that brought the potter back in the studio and
> value to the handmade items. He was said to hate slip casting, but
> slip casting was just the tool of ceramics industrialization, thus
> what he truly hated was mass production/industrialization/
> mechanization, not slip casting per se (BL used a wheel, that doesn'
> t seem to bother him though); however, ignorance in that department
> prevails and, thus, slip casting retains the stigma -- also because
> there are individual buying commercial molds and commercial glaze
> (most likely metallic black and pearl white) to make their ware who
> multiply angels or unicorns, for example, but imo those are rather
> obvious to spot out from the ppl who design their ware and use mold,
> casting slip and even a commercial glaze.
>
> To take it a step further, I heard that people who design their own
> ware are excluded from art fairs or any type of art and/or craft shows
> _because_ they slip cast even when it's their own design, homemade
> slip and glazes, etc. It seems like ignorance to me. However, press
> molds are used all the time and since the beginning of time and that
> doesn't seem to bother anyone. Darn industrialization that gave
> casting slip a bad name is what it seems to be all about to me and
> education seems to be in order.
>
> Any comments? Thanks,
>
> Fabienne
>
> "We never touch people so lightly that we do not leave a trace." ~
> Peggy Tabor Millin
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
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23:34:00
John Rodgers on sun 29 aug 10
Fabienne,
This brings back the old battle between "Handmade" vs "Handcrafted". You
are correct, that for the most part the aspersions against slipcast work
are the result of ignorance. I for one do both, and I have had my hand
crafted slip cast work rejected while at the same time my handmade work
was accepted - all for the same show. It really ticks me off when I get
attitude from managers of said shows over the slip cast work. For slip
casters who create their own designs, sculpt their own models, make
their own molds, and cast and finish their own work - it's an un-ending
battle against ignorance and prejudice.
John Rodgers
On 8/29/2010 1:37 PM, Fabienne McMillan wrote:
> Since I'm stuck without a studio, the local community college had a
> fire in their kiln room so they are closed this semester, I am doing
> more reading and specifically on slip casting which has caught my
> attention. What has also caught my attention is the stigma that is
> surrounding it.
>
> I'm not very far into reading and I've been reading about the
> technical aspect of it, but it's interesting to see how the prologues/
> intros are littered with comments on how slip casting is viewed at
> large. From the little I know, in a nutshell, industrialization of
> ceramics came about and mass production of ceramic items came about
> with the use of slip casting making it affordable, etc. Bernard Leach
> seems to be the one that brought the potter back in the studio and
> value to the handmade items. He was said to hate slip casting, but
> slip casting was just the tool of ceramics industrialization, thus
> what he truly hated was mass production/industrialization/
> mechanization, not slip casting per se (BL used a wheel, that doesn'
> t seem to bother him though); however, ignorance in that department
> prevails and, thus, slip casting retains the stigma -- also because
> there are individual buying commercial molds and commercial glaze
> (most likely metallic black and pearl white) to make their ware who
> multiply angels or unicorns, for example, but imo those are rather
> obvious to spot out from the ppl who design their ware and use mold,
> casting slip and even a commercial glaze.
>
> To take it a step further, I heard that people who design their own
> ware are excluded from art fairs or any type of art and/or craft shows
> _because_ they slip cast even when it's their own design, homemade
> slip and glazes, etc. It seems like ignorance to me. However, press
> molds are used all the time and since the beginning of time and that
> doesn't seem to bother anyone. Darn industrialization that gave
> casting slip a bad name is what it seems to be all about to me and
> education seems to be in order.
>
> Any comments? Thanks,
>
> Fabienne
>
> "We never touch people so lightly that we do not leave a trace." ~
> Peggy Tabor Millin
>
>
David Finkelnburg on mon 30 aug 10
Robert,
I agree, what you report shows at least some accommodation of slip
casting.
Goodness, though, I hadn't even thought about commercial molds. In my
limited thinking artists make their molds. But following your
shows' thinking, what about an artist who designs a mold and then pays a
mold maker to make the mold? Is that "commercial," therefore forbidden?
Just wondering...
I do understand why this is importance. The journey to the product is
important to some people, the path followed makes a difference to them. An
artist, typically, is more concerned with the result than the
method...typically.
Good potting,
Dave Finkelnburg
http://mattanddavesclays.com
On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 6:23 PM, Robert Harris wro=
te:
> A few of the better shows here in Florida specify the prohibition of
> "commercial molds" only. They specifically say if you make the mold
> yourself it's OK. Admittedly most of the shows just ban them outright,
> but the ones that really try to cater to artists, do try and word the
> rules so they only exclude the people who should be excluded.
>
> This seems to me to be a reasonable compromise.
>
> While I suppose it would be possible to use a commercial mold and
> manipulate the resulting item sufficiently to be rendered novel, I
> would think anyone who does that would be perfectly happy to make
> their own mold in order to fall within the rules.
>
> So perhaps there is getting to be a shift in perspective.
>
> Robert
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 1:12 PM, David Finkelnburg
> wrote:
> > Fabienne,
> > Okay, you have stated the fact. Art shows almost invariably ban sli=
p
> > cast work. The question is, what does this mean for you? What are you
> > going to do?
> > Whenever I see those stupid Art show prospectuses that say no slip
> > casting, I think of ceramic artist Jason Walker. See:
> > http://www.ferringallery.com/dynamic/artist_portfolio.asp?artistID=3D6=
5
> > Jason grew up here in Pocatello and worked as a sign painter. He wa=
s
> a
> > remarkable individual who went from that to a BFA at Utah State, MFA at
> Penn
> > St., artist at the Archie Bray Foundation, now a very successful artist
> in
> > big shows and galleries. Virtually all his work has significant slip
> cast
> > elements. A lot of his earlier work has slip cast plumbing and
> electrical
> > fittings, conduit and pipe and that remains. Flexible conduit makes
> great
> > teapot spouts and handles, especially when coupled with messages on the
> pot
> > about energy use. Jason's porcelain began as black on white but his
> current
> > work is almost entirely color on porcelain.
> > The point is, of course, that slip casting can be used to mass
> produce
> > exact industrial replications of a single item, or as a means to make
> unique
> > art. Whether it is used for one or the other is entirely within the
> control
> > of the artists.
> > Btw, the same can be said of the throwing wheel. Dr. William Carty
> at
> > Alfred U. likes to begin his lecture on ceramic processing by passing
> around
> > a small porcelain bowl and asking the students how it was made. Slip
> cast?
> > Ram pressed? Jiggered? Almost no one guesses the right answer--wheel
> > thrown. The skilled and experienced thrower, incidentally, was throwi=
ng
> > about 1,000 of them a day in a Jingdezhen factory when Dr. Carty picked
> up
> > his example.
> > Tools remain tools. Artists make art. Humans make rules which
> almost
> > never work as well as intended.
> > Good potting!
> > Dave Finkelnburg
> > http://www.mattanddavesclays.com
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 13:37:36 -0500
> > From: Fabienne McMillan
> > Subject: Slip Casting's Stigma
> >
> > Since I'm stuck without a studio, the local community college had a
> > fire in their kiln room so they are closed this semester, I am doing
> > more reading and specifically on slip casting which has caught my
> > attention. What has also caught my attention is the stigma that is
> > surrounding it.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
Lee Love on mon 30 aug 10
On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 12:12 PM, David Finkelnburg
wrote:
> Fabienne,
> =3DA0 =3DA0Okay, you have stated the fact. =3DA0Art shows almost invariab=
ly ban=3D
slip
> cast work. =3DA0The question is, what does this mean for you? =3DA0What a=
re y=3D
ou
> going to do?
http://www.ferringallery.com/dynamic/artist_portfolio.asp?artistID=3D3D65
Looks like work that would do better in galleries than craft fairs.
--
=3DA0Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
Robert Harris on mon 30 aug 10
A few of the better shows here in Florida specify the prohibition of
"commercial molds" only. They specifically say if you make the mold
yourself it's OK. Admittedly most of the shows just ban them outright,
but the ones that really try to cater to artists, do try and word the
rules so they only exclude the people who should be excluded.
This seems to me to be a reasonable compromise.
While I suppose it would be possible to use a commercial mold and
manipulate the resulting item sufficiently to be rendered novel, I
would think anyone who does that would be perfectly happy to make
their own mold in order to fall within the rules.
So perhaps there is getting to be a shift in perspective.
Robert
On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 1:12 PM, David Finkelnburg
wrote:
> Fabienne,
> =3DA0 =3DA0Okay, you have stated the fact. =3DA0Art shows almost invariab=
ly ban=3D
slip
> cast work. =3DA0The question is, what does this mean for you? =3DA0What a=
re y=3D
ou
> going to do?
> =3DA0 =3DA0Whenever I see those stupid Art show prospectuses that say no =
slip
> casting, I think of ceramic artist Jason Walker. See:
> =3DA0http://www.ferringallery.com/dynamic/artist_portfolio.asp?artistID=
=3D3D6=3D
5
> =3DA0 =3DA0Jason grew up here in Pocatello and worked as a sign painter. =
=3DA0H=3D
e was a
> remarkable individual who went from that to a BFA at Utah State, MFA at P=
=3D
enn
> St., artist at the Archie Bray Foundation, now a very successful artist i=
=3D
n
> big shows and galleries. =3DA0Virtually all his work has significant slip=
c=3D
ast
> elements. =3DA0A lot of his earlier work has slip cast plumbing and elect=
ri=3D
cal
> fittings, conduit and pipe and that remains. =3DA0Flexible conduit makes =
gr=3D
eat
> teapot spouts and handles, especially when coupled with messages on the p=
=3D
ot
> about energy use. =3DA0Jason's porcelain began as black on white but his =
cu=3D
rrent
> work is almost entirely color on porcelain.
> =3DA0 =3DA0 The point is, of course, that slip casting can be used to mas=
s pr=3D
oduce
> exact industrial replications of a single item, or as a means to make uni=
=3D
que
> art. =3DA0Whether it is used for one or the other is entirely within the =
co=3D
ntrol
> of the artists.
> =3DA0 =3DA0 Btw, the same can be said of the throwing wheel. =3DA0Dr. Wil=
liam C=3D
arty at
> Alfred U. likes to begin his lecture on ceramic processing by passing aro=
=3D
und
> a small porcelain bowl and asking the students how it was made. =3DA0Slip=
c=3D
ast?
> Ram pressed? =3DA0Jiggered? =3DA0Almost no one guesses the right answer--=
whee=3D
l
> thrown. =3DA0The =3DA0skilled and experienced thrower, incidentally, was =
thro=3D
wing
> about 1,000 of them a day in a Jingdezhen factory when Dr. Carty picked u=
=3D
p
> his example.
> =3DA0 =3DA0 Tools remain tools. =3DA0Artists make art. =3DA0Humans make r=
ules whi=3D
ch almost
> never work as well as intended.
> =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0Good potting!
> =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 Dave Finkelnburg
> =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 http://www.mattanddavesclays.co=
m
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: =3DA0 =3DA0Sun, 29 Aug 2010 13:37:36 -0500
> From: =3DA0 =3DA0Fabienne McMillan
> Subject: Slip Casting's Stigma
>
> Since I'm stuck without a studio, the local community college had a
> fire in their kiln room so they are closed this semester, I am doing
> more reading and specifically on slip casting which has caught my
> attention. =3DA0What has also caught my attention is the stigma that is
> surrounding it.
>
--=3D20
----------------------------------------------------------
David Finkelnburg on mon 30 aug 10
Fabienne,
Okay, you have stated the fact. Art shows almost invariably ban slip
cast work. The question is, what does this mean for you? What are you
going to do?
Whenever I see those stupid Art show prospectuses that say no slip
casting, I think of ceramic artist Jason Walker. See:
http://www.ferringallery.com/dynamic/artist_portfolio.asp?artistID=3D65
Jason grew up here in Pocatello and worked as a sign painter. He was a
remarkable individual who went from that to a BFA at Utah State, MFA at Pen=
n
St., artist at the Archie Bray Foundation, now a very successful artist in
big shows and galleries. Virtually all his work has significant slip cast
elements. A lot of his earlier work has slip cast plumbing and electrical
fittings, conduit and pipe and that remains. Flexible conduit makes great
teapot spouts and handles, especially when coupled with messages on the pot
about energy use. Jason's porcelain began as black on white but his curren=
t
work is almost entirely color on porcelain.
The point is, of course, that slip casting can be used to mass produce
exact industrial replications of a single item, or as a means to make uniqu=
e
art. Whether it is used for one or the other is entirely within the contro=
l
of the artists.
Btw, the same can be said of the throwing wheel. Dr. William Carty at
Alfred U. likes to begin his lecture on ceramic processing by passing aroun=
d
a small porcelain bowl and asking the students how it was made. Slip cast?
Ram pressed? Jiggered? Almost no one guesses the right answer--wheel
thrown. The skilled and experienced thrower, incidentally, was throwing
about 1,000 of them a day in a Jingdezhen factory when Dr. Carty picked up
his example.
Tools remain tools. Artists make art. Humans make rules which almost
never work as well as intended.
Good potting!
Dave Finkelnburg
http://www.mattanddavesclays.com
-----------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 13:37:36 -0500
From: Fabienne McMillan
Subject: Slip Casting's Stigma
Since I'm stuck without a studio, the local community college had a
fire in their kiln room so they are closed this semester, I am doing
more reading and specifically on slip casting which has caught my
attention. What has also caught my attention is the stigma that is
surrounding it.
John Rodgers on tue 31 aug 10
Definite differences. I control the process from start to finish -
here in America. The Wal-mart cup will be most likely made in China or
elsewhere, and involve dozens if not hundreds of people in a factory
environment. I have a story to tell about my work. A Walmart vendor does
not. The customer can take home a piece of the artist as a result of the
encounter - they cannot with a Walmart vendor. Plus - the Walmart cups
can be had in any Walmart store - but my cups are only available from
me, at my location, on a particular day. Makes a huge difference.
Besides that - there are discriminating art customers, and then there
are Walmart shoppers. Two completely different mind sets. Never the
twain shall meet. I discovered this fact when i found that my work had
been copied, reproduced in Taiwan, then sold back through major
department stores, right next to my work, piece for piece, but at 1/3
the price. I was bent at first, then after looking at my numbers, I
realized my sales never even slowed down. junk is junk, by any other
name, and discriminating buyers bought my work at three times the price.
The junk just hung there. A good lesson for me.
Regards,
John Rodgers
On 8/31/2010 9:38 PM, Randall Moody wrote:
> Do you see any difference between the cup from
> walmart and yours?
Lee Love on tue 31 aug 10
On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 7:53 PM, David Finkelnburg
wrote:
>=3DA0An artist, typically, is more concerned with the result than the
> method...typically.
I believe you are right. It is one of the points that separates the
artist from the craftman.
Probably the biggest stigma related to mold made work are crafters
and the "paint your own" shops. No creative bigotry need be involved
to not accept those as "handmade."
--
=3DA0Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
Terrance on tue 31 aug 10
I see no stigma to slip casting. I throw and slipcast. My professor=3D20
encouraged us to try aspects of clayart. There may be some out there th=
=3D
at=3D20
feel that it is not a good thing to do but for me the experience has give=
=3D
n me=3D20
the confidence to go on to making bronze sculptures. The principles are =
=3D
very=3D20
close.
I have enough confidence now to think about giving workshops on "Basic Cl=
=3D
ay=3D20
to Bronze."
A sample of what I am doing is at: http://clayart.ca/00201My%20Art%
20Work/00300Index_Art_Terry's_Brones.htm
Like all forms of art one must find one's way. Henery Moore's work has =
=3D
helped=3D20
me to start. I have started a series of my own forms.=3D20=3D20
Terrance
John Rodgers on tue 31 aug 10
Terrance,
The big battle that arises sooner or later out of the slip cast versus
other debate is the worth of handmade vs hand crafted - the former using
finners and the latter using tools - both directly applied to the clay.
John Rodgers
On 8/31/2010 1:46 PM, Terrance wrote:
> I see no stigma to slip casting. I throw and slipcast. My professor
> encouraged us to try aspects of clayart. There may be some out there th=
at
> feel that it is not a good thing to do but for me the experience has give=
n me
> the confidence to go on to making bronze sculptures. The principles are =
very
> close.
>
> I have enough confidence now to think about giving workshops on "Basic Cl=
ay
> to Bronze."
>
> A sample of what I am doing is at: http://clayart.ca/00201My%20Art%
> 20Work/00300Index_Art_Terry's_Brones.htm
>
> Like all forms of art one must find one's way. Henery Moore's work has =
helped
> me to start. I have started a series of my own forms.
>
> Terrance
>
>
Jeff Jeff on tue 31 aug 10
Hey Fabienne,
While a part of me wants to agree with you another part of me has to
acknowledge that there are a lot of factors involved.
Yes I slip cast my work, yes I make my own molds, and yes I design my own
shapes. I've also adopted a "look" that was very much not "handmade"
looking. (Single opaque colors.)
My intent was to achieve more of a "designed" look rather than "handmade".
I've met with resistance, in the past, but I'm not sure if that's of my own
making?
I started as a wheel throwing potter, so my intent, to make affordable
functional pots, remains intact, I just traveled down a different road alo=
ng
the way.
The answer to your question lies more with you than anything external. Are
you using molds to "crank out" what otherwise might be a wheel thrown pot
or are you using molds as a tool onto themselves? (As I do.)
I've mentioned my Braille pots in the past. They are slip cast. There are
potters who make "Braille pots" by hand but they really are not acceptable
to most blind people. (Due to irregular Braille.) I make no pretense that
they are not "made by hand". The high quality of the Braille is a direct
result of them being slip cast so I make a point of explaining the process=
to
customers. Most people don't really care, nor do they understand, so my
explanation is not needed in most instances.
take care
Jeff Longtin
Minneapolis
In a message dated 8/29/2010 1:58:38 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
clayart@ATT.NET writes:
Since I'm stuck without a studio, the local community college had a
fire in their kiln room so they are closed this semester, I am doing
more reading and specifically on slip casting which has caught my
attention. What has also caught my attention is the stigma that is
surrounding it.
I'm not very far into reading and I've been reading about the
technical aspect of it, but it's interesting to see how the prologues/
intros are littered with comments on how slip casting is viewed at
large. From the little I know, in a nutshell, industrialization of
ceramics came about and mass production of ceramic items came about
with the use of slip casting making it affordable, etc. Bernard Leach
seems to be the one that brought the potter back in the studio and
value to the handmade items. He was said to hate slip casting, but
slip casting was just the tool of ceramics industrialization, thus
what he truly hated was mass production/industrialization/
mechanization, not slip casting per se (BL used a wheel, that doesn'
t seem to bother him though); however, ignorance in that department
prevails and, thus, slip casting retains the stigma -- also because
there are individual buying commercial molds and commercial glaze
(most likely metallic black and pearl white) to make their ware who
multiply angels or unicorns, for example, but imo those are rather
obvious to spot out from the ppl who design their ware and use mold,
casting slip and even a commercial glaze.
To take it a step further, I heard that people who design their own
ware are excluded from art fairs or any type of art and/or craft shows
_because_ they slip cast even when it's their own design, homemade
slip and glazes, etc. It seems like ignorance to me. However, press
molds are used all the time and since the beginning of time and that
doesn't seem to bother anyone. Darn industrialization that gave
casting slip a bad name is what it seems to be all about to me and
education seems to be in order.
Any comments? Thanks,
Fabienne
"We never touch people so lightly that we do not leave a trace." ~
Peggy Tabor Millin
Kathy Forer on tue 31 aug 10
On Aug 30, 2010, at 8:53 PM, David Finkelnburg wro=
t=3D
e:
> I do understand why this is importance. The journey to the product is
> important to some people, the path followed makes a difference to them. =
A=3D
n
> artist, typically, is more concerned with the result than the
> method...typically.
I disagree! And not just from my own experience.=3D20
Artistic development and style may not be closely bound to technique, metho=
d=3D
or even material but process and approach are intrinsic to any creation.=
=3D20=3D
Kathy Forer
Randall Moody on tue 31 aug 10
I believe that the motivation is what calls slip casting into suspicion. I
believe there is a difference between what many are point to (slip cast
assemblages) and slip casting and churning out hundreds of the same coffee
mug. If you are slip casting a coffee mug and are lamenting your not gettin=
g
into a show ask yourself how you would feel if someone set up a booth right
next to yours selling slip cast coffee cups from Wal-mart. Both your mug an=
d
the walmart mug were designed by a person. Both were "prototyped". Both had
a mold maker make a mold of them and both have a certain amount of human
hand work to their finish. Do you see any difference between the cup from
walmart and yours?
--
Randall in Atlanta
http://wrandallmoody.com/home.html
Fabienne McMillan on wed 1 sep 10
Slump glass items are all over the place and craft fairs don't seem to
have a problem with those. I guess "glass" gets more credit than clay
even if it looks like paint by number; I wonder how people who cut and
solder their stained glass feel about them. I'm not equating slump
glass to casting; frankly, from the items I've seen at fairs, they
look pretty cheesy, like those unicorns and angels I spoke of in my
original post. So why are they in and original slip casting is not?
There goes another "mystery."
Fabienne
"We never touch people so lightly that we do not leave a trace." ~
Peggy Tabor Millin
On Aug 31, 2010, at 6:47 PM, John Rodgers wrote:
> Terrance,
>
> The big battle that arises sooner or later out of the slip cast
> versus
> other debate is the worth of handmade vs hand crafted - the former
> using
> finners and the latter using tools - both directly applied to the
> clay.
>
> John Rodgers
Randall Moody on wed 1 sep 10
Someone in China controls the process at each point in the process
and someone has an overall control of the process. It doesn't matter
where the process takes place. Do you consider collaborative work less
than a work made by one person? Of course the vendor has a story to
tell. It could be one as mundane as "I need to feed my family" or "I
like the New Orleans Saints" but that story is no less valid than your
story. Wal Mart cups are only available at Wal Mart stores just as
yours is only available through you. Availability has little to do
with the validity of the work.
Are you also saying that "discriminating art customers" never shop at
Wal Mart? If someone buys one of your cups, makes a mold of it and
treats it in such a way that it is indistinguishable from your cup,
where does your "junk is junk" statement lead you? Most of your
argument seems to be valuing the venue rather than the work. I could
be wrong on that, however.
On 9/1/10, John Rodgers wrote:
> Definite differences. I control the process from start to finish -
> here in America. The Wal-mart cup will be most likely made in China or
> elsewhere, and involve dozens if not hundreds of people in a factory
> environment. I have a story to tell about my work. A Walmart vendor does
> not. The customer can take home a piece of the artist as a result of the
> encounter - they cannot with a Walmart vendor. Plus - the Walmart cups
> can be had in any Walmart store - but my cups are only available from
> me, at my location, on a particular day. Makes a huge difference.
> Besides that - there are discriminating art customers, and then there
> are Walmart shoppers. Two completely different mind sets. Never the
> twain shall meet. I discovered this fact when i found that my work had
> been copied, reproduced in Taiwan, then sold back through major
> department stores, right next to my work, piece for piece, but at 1/3
> the price. I was bent at first, then after looking at my numbers, I
> realized my sales never even slowed down. junk is junk, by any other
> name, and discriminating buyers bought my work at three times the price.
> The junk just hung there. A good lesson for me.
>
> Regards,
>
> John Rodgers
>
>
> On 8/31/2010 9:38 PM, Randall Moody wrote:
>> Do you see any difference between the cup from
>> walmart and yours?
>
>
--
Randall in Atlanta
http://wrandallmoody.com/home.html
Eleanora Eden on wed 1 sep 10
Well, for starters the design work is better. I may not be looking hard en=
ough,
but I have not seen commercially produced castings worth squat in terms of
design.
Then, if we are talking about a casting that made its way past a big-time
fair jury, the finishing and decorating are also much better.
Nobody, absolutely nobody, would mistake my cast work for something from
Walmart. So, yes, I see a huge difference.
Eleanora
PS I got my start-up space to do my cast work because ACC gave me a 5-year
contract to sell it at their wholesale/retail fair. That is a pretty picky=
jury system,
albeit in the early '90s.
>I believe that the motivation is what calls slip casting into suspicion. I
>believe there is a difference between what many are point to (slip cast
>assemblages) and slip casting and churning out hundreds of the same coffee
>mug. If you are slip casting a coffee mug and are lamenting your not getti=
ng
>into a show ask yourself how you would feel if someone set up a booth righ=
t
>next to yours selling slip cast coffee cups from Wal-mart. Both your mug a=
nd
>the walmart mug were designed by a person. Both were "prototyped". Both ha=
d
>a mold maker make a mold of them and both have a certain amount of human
>hand work to their finish. Do you see any difference between the cup from
>walmart and yours?
>
>
>--
>Randall in Atlanta
>http://wrandallmoody.com/home.html
--
Bellows Falls Vermont
www.eleanoraeden.com
Lee Love on wed 1 sep 10
On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:38 AM, Fabienne McMillan wrote:
> original post. =3DA0So why are they in and original slip casting is not?
> There goes another "mystery."
They aren't made in a mold?
--
=3DA0Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
Fabienne McMillan on thu 2 sep 10
Perhaps not, but they are made WITH a mold (slump _into_ or _over_ a =3D20
mold is done) and most likely commercial ones considering the mundane =3D20=
=3D
shapes I have seen unless they are also all seasoned steel =3D20
craftspeople which I seriously doubt from their pristine hand although =3D2=
0=3D
I understand they can also be made of refractory material which are =3D20
not easy to make nor durable.
Another example of stuff that is accepted that makes little sense when =3D2=
0=3D
original slip casting is not. I saw a photographer making a limited =3D20
edition out of photographs and over a 100 of them.
All I'm saying is that there seems to be more than just it's =3D20
duplicated work or it's not original since those are getting through =3D20
in other media when slip casting is rejected.
Gotta go, my little one is pulling me away :)
Fabienne
"We never touch people so lightly that we do not leave a trace." ~ =3D20
Peggy Tabor Millin
On Sep 1, 2010, at 8:06 PM, Lee Love wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:38 AM, Fabienne McMillan =3D20=
=3D
> wrote:
>
>> original post. So why are they in and original slip casting is not?
>> There goes another "mystery."
>
> They aren't made in a mold?
>
> --
> Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
> http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
>
> =3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. =3D
Feel
> the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
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