David Hendley on sun 17 oct 10
AIR is the best insulator. The best economical way to
protect a wall is cover it with a non-burnable material
with an air space between it and the wall.
The best choices are cement board, also called tile
backer board, or metal roofing panels.
For the air space, about 1-to-2 inches is good. If you
can still find porcelain ones (plastic is taking over),
the insulators for installing electric fences are perfect
spacers. One or 2-inch kiln posts are also good. Both
have holes through them, so the cement board or tin
can be attached to the wall with screws or nails,
through the mater, through the spacers, and into the
wall. You could also extrude some nifty spacers.
Actually 20+ inches between the wall and the kiln
should not require any extra protection. But if it is
required by your insurance, the heat shield would
have to cover the window as well.
David Hendley
david@farmpots.com
http://www.farmpots.com
http://www.thewahooligans.com
----- Original Message -----
> The insurance company requires a non-flamnmable, fireproof wall near the
> kiln.
> Anyone have info about what is acceptable?
> I have the kiln 20+ inches from a sheetrock exterior wall. There is a woo=
d
> frame window slightly to the right of center.
> Thanks
> Judy
J Motzkin on sun 17 oct 10
The insurance company requires a non-flamnmable, fireproof wall near the
kiln.
Anyone have info about what is acceptable?
I have the kiln 20+ inches from a sheetrock exterior wall. There is a wood
frame window slightly to the right of center.
Thanks
Judy
--
judy motzkin studio
7 tufts street
cambridge MA 02139
617-547-5513
www.motzkin.com
www.breadbakers.blogspot.com
William & Susan Schran User on sun 17 oct 10
On 10/17/10 5:12 PM, "J Motzkin" wrote:
> The insurance company requires a non-flamnmable, fireproof wall near the
> kiln.
> Anyone have info about what is acceptable?
> I have the kiln 20+ inches from a sheetrock exterior wall. There is a woo=
d
> frame window slightly to the right of center.
The kiln manufacturer's manual will specify the distance required from any
flammable surface, usually about 18".
One way to easily create a non-flammable wall surface would be to attach
cement board, one brand name is Durock, over the wall board near the kiln.
Eevn better would be to attach the cement board with spacers, to create air
space between it and the wall board.
Bill
--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
paul gerhold on mon 18 oct 10
Judy,
Ask the insurance company. Anything else is just guessing. When I had this
problem about 25 years ago they told me I had to put an asbestos barrier
between the kiln and the wall. Needless to say I just ignored them.
Paul
Nancy Spinella on mon 18 oct 10
But if you extrude some spacers, how would you fire them if you can't fire
the kiln until you have the spacers in the wall??
Joke. JOKE!!
In all seriousness, I've sort of got the same problem as Judy, but without
the insurance company or the window slightly right of center. Would a
plywood wall that's 18" from the back still be okay without the Durock? I
haven't fired up my kiln because I'm *STILL* waiting on parts for the dang
kiln-sitter.....
--Nancy
On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 9:47 PM, David Hendley wrote:
> You could also extrude some nifty spacers.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>> The insurance company requires a non-flamnmable, fireproof wall near the
>> kiln.
>> Anyone have info about what is acceptable?
>> I have the kiln 20+ inches from a sheetrock exterior wall. There is a wo=
od
>> frame window slightly to the right of center.
>> Thanks
>> Judy
>>
>
--
www.twitter.com/nanspins
www.wix.com/nanspin/pottery
John Baymore on mon 18 oct 10
Wow... now I've got two posts to CLAYART in the same year . I'm on a ro=
=3D
ll.
Judy,
Knowing how insurance companies tend to be........... if they are asking YO=
=3D
U to do this... they already have a specific idea of what they want.
Ask them specifically what you need to do to satisfy them. Likely they are=
=3D
thinking of one of the National or local building codes. "Fireproof" rati=
=3D
ngs are specified in building codes for certain industrial and heating appl=
=3D
ications. Find out what code they want you to comply with, and then do tha=
=3D
t precisely as specified in the code. (That may get kinda' costly.) Likel=
=3D
y it will reference both a regulatory body (like National Building Code) an=
=3D
d a number of the regulation (like 49:21) or something like that. =3D20
If they are actually happy with the kiln manufacturer's installtion standar=
=3D
ds... then contact the manufacturer for the specifics, get them in writing =
=3D
from them, get a copy to the insurance company before you do the work, if t=
=3D
hey don't then say "no", file the specs, and then follow them to the letter=
=3D
.
"Potter level" solutions are various and may work JUST fine...... but they =
=3D
still might not satisfy the insurance company. And you don't want to find =
=3D
that out AFTER a problem arises.
The world is going regulation happy. Soon we will need a permit to sneeze.=
=3D
=3D20
Hope all is well.
best,
...................john
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
http://www.nhia.edu/new-facultypage-5/
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 17:12:45 -0400
rom: J Motzkin
ubject: Wall near kiln
The insurance company requires a non-flamnmable, fireproof wall near the
iln.
nyone have info about what is acceptable?
have the kiln 20+ inches from a sheetrock exterior wall. There is a wood
rame window slightly to the right of center.
hanks
udy
--
udy motzkin studio
tufts street
ambridge MA 02139
17-547-5513
ww.motzkin.com
ww.breadbakers.blogspot.com
David Hendley on mon 18 oct 10
----- Original Message -----
But if you extrude some spacers, how would you fire them if you can't fire
the kiln until you have the spacers in the wall??
Joke. JOKE!!
In all seriousness, I've sort of got the same problem as Judy, but without
the insurance company or the window slightly right of center. Would a
plywood wall that's 18" from the back still be okay without the Durock? I
haven't fired up my kiln because I'm *STILL* waiting on parts for the dang
kiln-sitter.....
Nancy, I'm no authority. Follow whatever is required
according to your kiln manual (from the legal department).
Heck, why not go ahead and spend a little time & money
to be extra safe - $50 would do it. Around here, old roofing
tin is common, often given away for free.
If you extrude your spacers, make twice as many as you
need, install the heat shield with unfired spaces (carefully,
with screws), fire the rest of the spacers, and then replace
the unfired ones!
David Hendley
david@farmpots.com
http://www.farmpots.com
http://www.thewahooligans.com
William & Susan Schran User on mon 18 oct 10
On 10/18/10 4:06 AM, "Nancy Spinella" wrote:
> In all seriousness, I've sort of got the same problem as Judy, but withou=
t
> the insurance company or the window slightly right of center. Would a
> plywood wall that's 18" from the back still be okay without the Durock? =
I
> haven't fired up my kiln because I'm *STILL* waiting on parts for the dan=
g
> kiln-sitter.....
What distance does the kiln manual say should be between kiln and flammable
surface?
I would suggest looking into a fireproof or fire retardant paint.
A plywood surface will certainly become drier, the glue holding it together
might be more flammable than the wood.
Not to frighten, just to caution...
Bill
--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
Lis Allison on mon 18 oct 10
On October 18, 2010, you wrote:
>
> In all seriousness, I've sort of got the same problem as Judy, but
> without the insurance company or the window slightly right of center.
> Would a plywood wall that's 18" from the back still be okay without
> the Durock?
I'd be a little worried about that. Gyproc (sheetrock, whatever) is
treated with a fire retardant, but plywood is pie for fires. I just felt
the wall behind my bigger kiln, which is gyproc and is 17" from the
closest part of the kiln wall, and it is warmish. Not hot, but noticeably
warm.
Lis
--
Elisabeth Allison
Pine Ridge Studio
website: www.pine-ridge.ca
Pottery blog: www.studio-on-the-ridge.blogspot.com
Garden blog: www.garden-on-the-ridge.blogspot.com
Janine in Tacoma on mon 18 oct 10
Hi Judy: When I installed a gas kilin in my studio I was working with a =
=3D
very=3D20
helpful city engineer (City of Tacoma, WA) who allowed me to create=3D20
a "fireproof" wall behind the kiln by laying on two thicknesses of 5/8"=3D2=
0=3D
sheetrock. This allowed me to put the kiln (flue) 18" from the wall rath=
=3D
er than=3D20
the prescribed 36". The mechanical code we were working with was very=3D20=
=3D
ambiguous (not to mention it really didn't address kiln installation) - s=
=3D
o I had to=3D20
rely on the city engineer to interpret. There may be an updated or revis=
=3D
ed=3D20
version of the code being followed in your jurisdiction, so you should ch=
=3D
eck=3D20
and see how it's being interpreted by whoever will be inspecting. Good l=
=3D
uck!
Janine in Tacoma, WA
Nancy Spinella on tue 19 oct 10
The manual says 18" is best, 12" minimum.
Thanks for the paint suggestion!! I didn't know they made it in
fireproof/retardant versions. :)
On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 5:07 PM, William & Susan Schran User <
wschran@cox.net> wrote:
> On 10/18/10 4:06 AM, "Nancy Spinella" wrote:
>
> > In all seriousness, I've sort of got the same problem as Judy, but
> without
> > the insurance company or the window slightly right of center. Would a
> > plywood wall that's 18" from the back still be okay without the Durock?
> I
> > haven't fired up my kiln because I'm *STILL* waiting on parts for the
> dang
> > kiln-sitter.....
>
> What distance does the kiln manual say should be between kiln and flammab=
le
> surface?
> I would suggest looking into a fireproof or fire retardant paint.
> A plywood surface will certainly become drier, the glue holding it togeth=
er
> might be more flammable than the wood.
> Not to frighten, just to caution...
>
> Bill
>
> --
> William "Bill" Schran
> wschran@cox.net
> wschran@nvcc.edu
> http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
>
>
>
--
www.twitter.com/nanspins
www.wix.com/nanspin/pottery
Nancy Spinella on thu 21 oct 10
Old roofing tin? Hey, I have a piece of that in the shed...it came with the
house we bought... I knew I'd find a use for it someday!!
I think it's really funny when this happens. It justifies my
packrat-ed-ness. My husband always laughs at me when I pick up broken or
"useless" items and stash them away, citing 'I could use that in the
studio.' But it looks like I get the last laugh here! :)
--Nancy
On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 6:52 PM, David Hendley wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- But if you extrude some spacers, how would y=
ou
> fire them if you can't fire the kiln until you have the spacers in the
> wall??
>
> Joke. JOKE!!
> In all seriousness, I've sort of got the same problem as Judy, but withou=
t
> the insurance company or the window slightly right of center. Would a
> plywood wall that's 18" from the back still be okay without the Durock? =
I
> haven't fired up my kiln because I'm *STILL* waiting on parts for the dan=
g
> kiln-sitter.....
>
>
>
> Nancy, I'm no authority. Follow whatever is required
> according to your kiln manual (from the legal department).
> Heck, why not go ahead and spend a little time & money
> to be extra safe - $50 would do it. Around here, old roofing
> tin is common, often given away for free.
>
> If you extrude your spacers, make twice as many as you
> need, install the heat shield with unfired spaces (carefully,
> with screws), fire the rest of the spacers, and then replace
> the unfired ones!
>
>
> David Hendley
> david@farmpots.com
> http://www.farmpots.com
> http://www.thewahooligans.com
>
--
www.twitter.com/nanspins
www.wix.com/nanspin/pottery
Lis Allison on thu 21 oct 10
On October 21, 2010, you wrote:
> Old roofing tin? Hey, I have a piece of that in the shed...it came with
> the house we bought... I knew I'd find a use for it someday!!
>
Umm, are you sure about that? Won't tin just heat up just as hot as the
wall would have with no real protection of the wall? One layer of roofing
tin has very little insulation value.
Lis
--
Elisabeth Allison
Pine Ridge Studio
website: www.pine-ridge.ca
Pottery blog: www.studio-on-the-ridge.blogspot.com
Garden blog: www.garden-on-the-ridge.blogspot.com
Vince Pitelka on thu 21 oct 10
Lis Allison wrote:
"Umm, are you sure about that? Won't tin just heat up just as hot as the
wall would have with no real protection of the wall? One layer of roofing
tin has very little insulation value."
Hi Lis -
If the metal were placed straight against the wall, that would be true, but
if you space it out from the wall an inch or two, with openings at the
bottom and top, it is very efficient. The metal layer heats up and heats
the air behind the metal, creating convection currents. The hot air rises
and flows out the top, pulling in cool air at the bottom. I have used this
system behind several kilns and behind a wood cook stove, and it worked
great in all situations. I spaced the heat shield out one inch from the
wall, using spacers cut from copper tubing.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Lis Allison on thu 21 oct 10
On October 21, 2010, Larry Kruzan wrote:
>>
> Hey Lis,
> I mounted my tin 1" out from the wall (spaced with old porcelain fence
> insulators I found) and I spaced the bottom 2" off the floor. My
> thinking (I really do think sometimes) was that the cool air would be
> drawn up from the bottom and out the top. It works great and the one
> inspector we had check on it thought it was perfect answer.
OK, maybe I missed the part where she said she was going to space it out
from the wall. I had the impression she meant to apply it tight to the
wall. If spaced, yes, anything non-flamable will work. If not spaced, I
think you need something like cement board.
Just sharing my fire phobia, guys! Sorry if I misunderstood.
Lis
--
Elisabeth Allison
Pine Ridge Studio
website: www.pine-ridge.ca
Pottery blog: www.studio-on-the-ridge.blogspot.com
Garden blog: www.garden-on-the-ridge.blogspot.com
Larry Kruzan on thu 21 oct 10
On October 21, 2010, you wrote:
> Old roofing tin? Hey, I have a piece of that in the shed...it came with
> the house we bought... I knew I'd find a use for it someday!!
>
Umm, are you sure about that? Won't tin just heat up just as hot as the
wall would have with no real protection of the wall? One layer of roofing
tin has very little insulation value.
Hey Lis,
I mounted my tin 1" out from the wall (spaced with old porcelain fence
insulators I found) and I spaced the bottom 2" off the floor. My thinking (=
I
really do think sometimes) was that the cool air would be drawn up from the
bottom and out the top. It works great and the one inspector we had check o=
n
it thought it was perfect answer.
There is a formula for spacing but you really don't need to be that
specific. A inch or two will dissipate a lot of heat. My gas kiln hard bric=
k
flu is 6" from the heat shield and the wall behind it is never even warm.
The flu measures 400+ degrees at peak temp and the metal shield checked @
150 degrees - the wall was 80 degrees.
Best Always,
Larry
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
(Email Guard: 7.0.0.18, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16120)
http://www.pctools.com/
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Snail Scott on sat 23 oct 10
> On October 21, 2010:
>> Old roofing tin? Hey, I have a piece of that in the shed...it came
>> with
>> the house we bought... I knew I'd find a use for it someday!!
>>
On Oct 21, 2010, at 12:15 PM, Lis Allison wrote:
> Umm, are you sure about that? Won't tin just heat up just as hot as
> the
> wall would have with no real protection of the wall?
Do not put the roofing tin flush against the wall!
It shold be used, as with the other materials
suggested, as a layer that has an AIR GAP
behind it! Use any of the suggested spacers
(the 1" kiln post suggestion was a clever one),
and leave a gap between the tin and the floor,
so that air can flow behind it from bottom to top.
-Snail
Judy Motzkin on sun 24 oct 10
As it turns out, on checking with the insurance agent, the problem the insu=
r=3D
ance company was with a piece of plywood temporarily stored near the kiln. =
T=3D
hey were right, it was too close and not safe. It was carelessly placed the=
r=3D
e and looked like a wall. The wall behind the kiln at 20" made of Sheetrock=
,=3D
even with the window frame is not at issue.=3D20
So the wood has been stashed elsewhere, the area cleaned up and pics sent o=
f=3D
f to the insurance agent. =3D20
My pack rat tendencies are deeply seated for better or worse. In the meanwh=
i=3D
le i found our leftover cement backing board pieces and they are now pieced=
t=3D
ogether behind the kiln. A better place to keep them anyway.=3D20
Thanks for responses and keep your studios safe, your kilns 18" from your w=
a=3D
lls, and your creative juices flowing.=3D20
Judy
Cambridge MA
Jo Smith on sun 24 oct 10
Ceramic Arts Discussion List
Any ideas for protecting the ceiling above the kiln? Mine are in a =3D
small enclosed porch that has a low ceiling.
Jo
Re: Wall near kiln=3D20
Posted by: "Snail Scott" claywork@FLYING-SNAIL.COM=3D20
Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:45 am (PDT)=3D20
> On October 21, 2010:
>> Old roofing tin? Hey, I have a piece of that in the shed...it came
>> with
>> the house we bought... I knew I'd find a use for it someday!!
>>
On Oct 21, 2010, at 12:15 PM, Lis Allison wrote:
> Umm, are you sure about that? Won't tin just heat up just as hot as
> the
> wall would have with no real protection of the wall?
Do not put the roofing tin flush against the wall!
It shold be used, as with the other materials
suggested, as a layer that has an AIR GAP
behind it! Use any of the suggested spacers
(the 1" kiln post suggestion was a clever one),
and leave a gap between the tin and the floor,
so that air can flow behind it from bottom to top.
-Snail
William & Susan Schran User on sun 24 oct 10
On 10/24/10 10:33 AM, "Jo Smith" wrote:
> Any ideas for protecting the ceiling above the kiln? Mine are in a smal=
l
> enclosed porch that has a low ceiling.
Same as the wall protection: fire proof paint, layer of cement board or
corrugated galvanized steel, either using spacers keeping material 1" away
from combustible surface.
Bill
--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
Joseph Herbert on mon 25 oct 10
Hello,
I posted some weeks ago about the standard industrial practice of limiting
combustible loading in the facility. Here is that issue again, combustible=
s
stored in proximity to a kiln. Do a self inspection, with a check list, on
a regular basis. This would be especially important for shared spaces, lik=
e
community studios, where things will just mysteriously move or appear.
Doing this at least quarterly would be a really good idea.
Since the surfaces of a well designed, properly maintained electric kiln
will not get hot enough to ignite something by radiation, ventilation is th=
e
solution for many heat buildup situations. Snail suggested the metal shiel=
d
with an airspace behind. This is a scheme for passive convective
ventilation of the space between the metal sheet and the wall board.
Allowing cool air to flow into the space by natural convection will keep th=
e
wall board cool. The rate of flow is dictated, to some extent, by the
heating of the metal surface. Also, the outlet for the air flow should be
larger than the inlet. The air is being heated and expanding while behind
the metal. There should be provision for the air to leave as rapidly as it
wishes to.
For an overhead space, the metal shield and convective cooling may not be
sufficient, since the situation does not allow for rapid air circulation.
There is not "up" in the situation and no easy supply of cooler air. Some
sort of forced air movement is probably required. An exhaust fan from an
enclosed area is a good idea, but there should also be a supply of cooler
air available to be drawn into the space. A louvered fan with a thermostat
(like used for attic cooling) installed in one wall with a similar louvered
inlet in another wall can keep the area cooler. The thermostats in attic
fans are often set at 140 degrees F. That will probably mean the fan would
run most of the time while the kiln is on.
If the kilns in question are not electric, there are venting issues beyond
the removal of heat.
Joe
Joseph Herbert
Training Developer
Arnold Howard on mon 25 oct 10
From: "Jo Smith"
Any ideas for protecting the ceiling above the kiln? Mine
are in a small enclosed porch that has a low ceiling.
----------
The heat can easily build up in small enclosed rooms. So it
is important to circulate the air with fans and open
windows.
Sincerely,
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA
ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com
Jo Smith on fri 5 nov 10
Thanks to all that responded. I think I will look into fire resistant =3D
paint for the old dried wood. Have an exhaust fan, plus when its warm I =
=3D
have another fan to blow into the kiln room. Then there is the little =3D
bitty squirrel cage fan that I place on the floor under the controller. =
=3D
When its really hot like this summer I won't fire. Not the ideal =3D
situation but us creative people will make due with what we have to do =3D
what we want. =3D20
Thanks again,
Jo
http://www.treenwareandpottery.com
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