tony clennell on tue 19 oct 10
Every time I get an email which is regularly from the Acting Dept Head
and the Associate Dean they list their academic degree's in their
signature. I thought that I too should in my response to them and then
I forgot and included them in a note to a friend. I was embarrassed!
Do you think it pretentious to flag this stuff in your
correspondence?.
Cheers,
Tony
David Martin Hershey on tue 19 oct 10
Hi All,
Tony, don't do it.
It's the red flag of insecurity.
The only thing worse,
is putting it in your
email address...
And civilians don't really know what
MFA means, and they REALLY
don't trust academics
these days.
If I put MFA in my sig line,
my art school buds would
never let me live it down.
My cousin is an MD.
When new acquaintances
ask him what he does,
he says "I work in a hospital."
Self confidence.
But please advertise your sites
on every email sig.
It's strictly a numbers game,
and you never know who's going
to click.
I've found that
100 clicks=3D 1 ObamaCard Gold sold. ;^)
Best, DMH
David Martin Hershey
DMH Studio + Design
2629 Manhattan Ave #137
Hermosa Beach CA USA
90254-2447 424.241.3809
http://www.dmhstudio.com/
http://www.obamacardgold.com
http://www.winetastingtrolley.com/
Shula on tue 19 oct 10
Hi Tony,
In my day job, in health care, it is relevant for me to include my credenti=
als. And, truthfully, I find it helpful when others includes theirs. I can =
make certain assumptions when I interact with them. (The assumptions are us=
ually accurate, but not always.)
Shula, RN, BSN, MBA (I don't include my first BA ;-) )
Clinical Manager
-----Original Message-----
>From: tony clennell
>Sent: Oct 19, 2010 7:04 AM
>To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: What's in a signature?
>
>Every time I get an email which is regularly from the Acting Dept Head
>and the Associate Dean they list their academic degree's in their
>signature. I thought that I too should in my response to them and then
>I forgot and included them in a note to a friend. I was embarrassed!
>Do you think it pretentious to flag this stuff in your
>correspondence?.
>Cheers,
>Tony
Shula
Desert Hot Springs, California USA
www.claymystique.etsy.com
Victoria E. Hamilton on tue 19 oct 10
Yup, I do. Possibly some sort of compensating for something?
Vicki Hamilton
Seattle
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of tony clennell
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 7:04 AM
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: What's in a signature?
Every time I get an email which is regularly from the Acting Dept Head and
the Associate Dean they list their academic degree's in their signature. I
thought that I too should in my response to them and then I forgot and
included them in a note to a friend. I was embarrassed!
Do you think it pretentious to flag this stuff in your correspondence?.
Cheers,
Tony
Logan Johnson on tue 19 oct 10
Hey Tony & All,
Personally I like to see that info in a signature. There are a few reasons:
=3DA0First, it tells me something about the education of the person I'm tal=
ki=3D
ng to.=3DA0=3DA0=3DA0 Compared to many folks on this list=3DA0 I don't have=
a lot o=3D
f higher education I have no degrees myself so I tend to give more weight t=
=3D
o people that do.=3D20
Second:=3DA0 when I pass on something I've learned I'm able to say for exam=
pl=3D
e : this is from a teacher at so & so school of art or university, or someo=
=3D
ne with a degree in chemical engineering or a "Master" kiln builder or what=
=3D
ever they're a "Master" of.=3DA0 This tells whoever I'm speaking to it's no=
t =3D
just my opinion or my thoughts that I'm passing on .
Third :=3DA0 Seeing someones credentials tells me how much effort they have=
p=3D
ut into gaining their knowledge. =3DA0 I always appreciate=3DA0 the amount =
of e=3D
ffort it takes to get those degrees & respect the ability to learn & rememb=
=3D
er everything. (and in the right order) =3DA0 Some other dyslexics will kno=
w =3D
what I mean about=3DA0 remembering things in the right order & how hard tha=
t =3D
can be. ;oD
Just my silly $ .02
Have a great Tuesday everyone !
Logan
Logan Johnson=3D20
Yakima Valley Pottery & Supply=3D20
719 w. Nob Hill blvd.=3D20
Yakima Wa. 98902=3D20
(509) 469-6966=3D20
www.yakimavalleypottery.net
--- On Tue, 10/19/10, tony clennell wrote:
From: tony clennell
Subject: What's in a signature?
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Date: Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 7:04 AM
Every time I get an email which is regularly from the Acting Dept Head
and the Associate Dean they list their academic degree's in their
signature. I thought that I too should in my response to them and then
I forgot and included them in=3DA0 a note to a friend. I was embarrassed!
Do you think it pretentious to flag this stuff in your
correspondence?.
Cheers,
Tony
=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A
James Freeman on tue 19 oct 10
Tony...
I tend to dislike such alphabet soup, though I recognize that there
are occasional appropriate uses of such. Often, though, it seems to
be simply borrowed or demanded authority or respect.
I used to put EIEIO after my name, and no one ever questioned it!
Since I have no doubt that you could, if pressed, correctly identify
at least three animals that Old MacDonald had on his farm, and
properly mimic their respective sounds, I would be happy to confer
upon you an Honorary EIEIO. Use it in good health!
...James, RR, ROP, BOM, FinOP, NYSE-SA, MP, and three more that I
cannot even remember now (yes, all real!)
(...with a moo, moo here, and a moo, moo there, here a moo, there a
moo, everywhere a moo, moo...)
James Freeman
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice.=3DA0 I
should not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 10:04 AM, tony clennell w=
=3D
rote:
> Every time I get an email which is regularly from the Acting Dept Head
> and the Associate Dean they list their academic degree's in their
> signature. I thought that I too should in my response to them and then
> I forgot and included them in =3DA0a note to a friend. I was embarrassed!
> Do you think it pretentious to flag this stuff in your
> correspondence?.
Taylor Hendrix on tue 19 oct 10
I see no problem including your terminal degree credentials in a
signature line. Likewise professional certifications that require
similar study. Some people need to be persuaded ( I had to flog my
wife constantly until she started putting the PhD on her
signature--after all half of that was mine, darn it, and I'm proud of
all that hard work) There is NO pretension if hard work was involved.
Yeah, Tony, you strike me as a pretentious MFA ss for sure, so don't
use it, unless you're at a bar or talking to girls or both.
Taylor, Fisher of Fish
Rockport TX
wirerabbit1 on Skype (-0600 UTC)
http://wirerabbit.blogspot.com
http://wirerabbitpots.blogspot.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wirerabbit/
On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 9:04 AM, tony clennell wr=
ote:
> Do you think it pretentious to flag this stuff in your
> correspondence?.
> Cheers,
> Tony
>
steve graber on tue 19 oct 10
among friends they already know i'm the Exhaulted Ruler.=3DA0 at the day jo=
b,=3D
when i =3D0Ahad one, it was useful so vendors knew where i was in the comp=
an=3D
y food chain.=3DA0 =3D0Ahere's it's a handy way to get some=3DA0limited web=
site t=3D
raffic....=3DA0 =3D0A=3D0A=3D0Ahonestly my regular home e-mail simply says =
Steve.=3D
=3DA0 since i always misspell it.=3DA0 =3D0Athe other day job i have now of=
consu=3D
lting uses the signature so others simply =3D0Aknow how to contact me in ca=
se=3D
all they have is a printed out e-mail copy.=3DA0 =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3DA0=
Steve Graber=3D
, Graber's Pottery, Inc=3D0AClaremont, California USA=3D0AThe Steve Tool - =
for =3D
awesome texture on pots! =3D0Awww.graberspottery.com steve@graberspottery.c=
om=3D
=3D0A=3D0A=3D0AOn Laguna Clay's website=3D0Ahttp://www.lagunaclay.com/blog=
s/ =3D0A=3D
=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A----- Original Message ----=3D0A> From: tony clennell clennell=3D
@GMAIL.COM>=3D0A> To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG=3D0A> Sent: Tue, October 19,=
201=3D
0 7:04:14 AM=3D0A> Subject: What's in a signature?=3D0A> =3D0A> Every time =
I get =3D
an email which is regularly from the Acting Dept Head=3D0A> and the Associa=
te=3D
Dean they list their academic degree's in their=3D0A> signature. I thought=
t=3D
hat I too should in my response to them and then=3D0A> I forgot and include=
d =3D
them in=3DA0 a note to a friend. I was embarrassed!=3D0A> Do you think it p=
rete=3D
ntious to flag this stuff in your=3D0A> correspondence?.=3D0A> Cheers,=3D0A=
> Tony=3D
=3D0A> =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A
Snail Scott on tue 19 oct 10
On Oct 19, 2010, at 9:04 AM, tony clennell wrote:
> ...list their academic degrees in their
> signature...Do you think it pretentious to flag this stuff in your
> correspondence?.
Yep. Even for a dean. Current positions held,
yes; awards or academic degrees, no.
Perhaps I see this from a fine arts academic perspective,
as the terminal degree in studio art remains the Master's
degree.(The very new studio PhD is not yet standard.) I
sometimes see the doctorate-holding faculty in other
departments using the hierarchy of degrees to treat faculty
in art and other non-doctoral disciplines as country cousins
or even less than that, rather than professional colleagues.
A PhD IS harder to get than a master's degree; I think no
one disputes that. What is at issue is why the person in
question feels the need to continually state this achievement
(NOT rank) in all routine communication with people that
already know them.
Outside the academic world such distinctions, however
well-earned, are even less relevant, and people who put
PhD on their checks merely look absurd.
-Snail
Fabienne McMillan on tue 19 oct 10
I would expect the signature credentials to be appropriate for the
context in which it is used. So in the case of the dean, being a
business context from what I understand, I would expect them included
if the person wishes to do so. As far as sending it to a friend, I
have friends who use the same email for business and personal
correspondence and use the professional signature with the disclaimer;
again, no big deal, I figure they forgot or it's really not an issue
between us that they don't bother to remove it. Of course they could
have just never thought about it :) Overall, we earned all these
acronyms with our sweat and "blood" so if we want to use them, we
should be able to and if someone things it's pompous, I'd be wondering
why they feel that way, but wouldn't dwell on it - I have a theory,
but it might start "something" :p Ultimately, like anything else, no
everyone will be happy. You have good common sense, I'm sure you'll
figure it out :)
Fabienne
"We never touch people so lightly that we do not leave a trace." ~
Peggy Tabor Millin
On Oct 19, 2010, at 9:04 AM, tony clennell wrote:
> Every time I get an email which is regularly from the Acting Dept Head
> and the Associate Dean they list their academic degree's in their
> signature. I thought that I too should in my response to them and then
> I forgot and included them in a note to a friend. I was embarrassed!
> Do you think it pretentious to flag this stuff in your
> correspondence?.
> Cheers,
> Tony
Vince Pitelka on tue 19 oct 10
Tony Clennell wrote:
"Every time I get an email which is regularly from the Acting Dept Head and
the Associate Dean they list their academic degree's in their signature. I
thought that I too should in my response to them and then I forgot and
included them in a note to a friend. I was embarrassed! Do you think it
pretentious to flag this stuff in your
correspondence?
Tony -
This seems to be a practice primarily among the "piled higher and deeper"
(PhD) crowd. I rarely see anyone with an MFA putting it after their name o=
n
letters and other documents, and I would hope that we have a little more
humility and perhaps a more realistic sense of priorities about the things
that matter in life and in the profession.
That said, it certainly is not uncommon for someone to put their academic
rank (Instructor of Ceramics, Associate Professor of Art, etc.) on the next
line after their name at the bottom of the letter. I think it is a
situational thing. If you think that the person you are writing to will
benefit from the information, then include your academic rank, but I would
not include MFA after your name, because it will seem like you are trying t=
o
compete in the elitist world of "piled higher and deeper," and in my
experience, that just ain't your style. You don't have to go to any troubl=
e
to impress anyone, Tony.
I should point out that I have nothing at all against PhDs, and it's a
damned good thing. Aside from my sister, who is a professional violist in
LA and has no college degree, I am the least educated person in my family.
I only have an MFA, whereas my late mom and dad and my brother, wife, and
son all have PhDs.
There is a very good reason why medical doctors, registered nurses, and
other health care professionals always include their degrees/certifications
after their name. We, the patients, need to know that information, and it i=
s
reassuring to us. That's not the case in a university setting. With the
vetting systems in place today, students can be pretty damned sure that the
person teaching them has the proper qualifications. In our field, what's
far more important is whether or not the teacher can teach worth a damn and
can make good art, and no string of degrees guarantees that. It seems to m=
e
that you have clearly demonstrated in many different venues that you can
make good art, and you are a fine teacher.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Carl Finch on tue 19 oct 10
At 09:31 AM 10/19/2010, Shula wrote:
>In my day job, in health care, it is relevant for me to include my
>credentials. And, truthfully, I find it helpful when others includes
>theirs. I can make certain assumptions when I interact with them.
>(The assumptions are usually accurate, but not always.)
>
>Shula, RN, BSN, MBA (I don't include my first BA ;-) )
>Clinical Manager
Shula, your post brings to mind an old riddle:
Q: What do you call a physician who graduated at the bottom of his class?
A: "Doctor"
--Carl
Medford, Oregon
Salutatorian, 8th Grade, East Granville School, 1950
"Pretentious? Moi?!" [Mr. Johnson, Fawlty Towers, Feb., 1979]
Robert Harris on tue 19 oct 10
As someone who has to admit to owning a Ph.D. I heartily agree with Snail.
I NEVER use it - unless I'm applying for a job I suppose - or when
someone virulently attacks my credentials to make pronouncements on a
subject I actually know a little about. I bet there are plenty of
silica research chemists who don't know as much about glazes
(especially "studio" glazes) than many people on ClayArt. A Ph.D.
doesn't mean anything in the face of 50 years experience. Especially
since it is probably just in your little tiny niche of research.
I KNOW how little it means. Sure I put in a number of years hard work
at a University lab, but it sure as hell doesn't mean I'm smarter at
everyday life than most people I come across everyday who don't have
Ph.Ds, and I doubt I worked as hard as Tony Clennell et al. have for
donkeys years. Frankly to me all it means is that people have the
interest in a particular academic subject to take it as far as they
can - or in some cases they just want the title, which really is
arrogance or insecurity. Frankly research is about inclination (with a
smattering of talent) as much as anything else. Pretty much like
pottery really.
Robert
--
----------------------------------------------------------
Maggie Furtak on wed 20 oct 10
Tony Clennell wrote:
"Every time I get an email which is regularly from the Acting Dept Head and
the Associate Dean they list their academic degree's in their signature. I
thought that I too should in my response to them and then I forgot and
included them in a note to a friend. I was embarrassed! Do you think it
pretentious to flag this stuff in your
correspondence?"
Excessive use of advanced degrees makes people look like they're compensati=
ng
for something. Like a padded resume. Like introducing yourself as an arti=
st,
instead of letting other people decide to call you one. (Whoa! Can of wor=
ms!)
College wasn't that long ago for me. We all knew who was a PhD. The
professors who introduced themselves as "Doctor So-and-So" came across as v=
ery
lame and desperately seeking proof of authority. The ones who were known
affectionately by their first names or as "Doc" by the students were genera=
lly
the better loved, the more respected, and the better teachers. That said,
putting your degree in your email signature is not at all pretentious, as l=
ong
as you signed the email, "love and kisses, your pal, Tony." (:
Maggie
Mrs. Ray's Nursery School '85
Maybury Elementary School '91
with excellence in glue-eating
Awarded the "Worm-Rescuer" Prize for meritorious actions during the Playgro=
und
Flood of '87
Lee Love on wed 20 oct 10
I saw and heard the speakers at the Regis panel discussion a couple
days ago. Most folks in their 80s or nearly. All sharp as a tack.
Daley jumped off the stage to speak to someone, and then hopped back
on. Most have titles, but I don't see them using them. Mason was
upset because his sculptural piece was in the craft area of the
Minneapolis Institute of Art.
Only two potters, but they could defiantly hold the title
of Master Potter. The other six folks are Clay or Ceramic Artists.
See some photos.
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
(date they did the Regis the first time. I think, Regis Master is a title=
=3D
.)
Nino Caruso (2004), Val Cushing (2005), William Daley (1998), Warren
MacKenzie (1997),, John Mason (2005), James Melchert (1998), Ron
Meyers (2008),and Patti Warashina (2009).
--
=3DA0Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
Fabienne McMillan on thu 21 oct 10
Why _assume_ that the middle age man who drives a Porsche is having a
midlife crisis? Why _assume_ the middle age woman who dates someone
half her age is having a midlife crisis? Could just be timing; it
usually is hard to come by money younger to buy a Porsche and if a
woman dated a "man" half her age in her 20s... well... Could it just
be a touch of envy? So, why _assume_ that people who use acronyms of
hard earned degrees are trying to belittle us? I personally don't
feel threatened by someone putting one or more degrees/certifications
in their correspondence to me, especially if it provides me with
important information and is valid within the context. When not, I
don't feel threatened by it, I don't try to figure out why or _assume_
anything, if I'm really curious I start a conversation about it with
the person in questions and then even if I _assume_ (or find out) the
person is just stroking their ego, I feel amused and move on.
Fabienne
"We never touch people so lightly that we do not leave a trace." ~
Peggy Tabor Millin
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