David Martin Hershey on sat 27 nov 10
Hi Tony,
Could it be the slower cooling of the gas kiln?
You could test it by doing another 04 firing in the gas kiln.
Measure the temp every hour after it's shut down.
Then design a firing down profile in the electric to match,
and see what happens.
If that doesn't work, measure the firing up profile too.
Also, could it be reducing just a little?
"She blinded me with science..." T. Dolby
Best, DMH
David Martin Hershey
DMH Studio + Design
2629 Manhattan Ave #137
Hermosa Beach CA USA
90254-2447 424.241.3809
http://www.dmhstudio.com/
http://www.obamacardgold.com
http://www.winetastingtrolley.com/
> Subject: You're fired!
>
> As a point of interest I have a student doing Cone 04 majoica that is ver=
y
> lovely. I convinced her to fire it in the gas kiln Oxidation 04.
> The glaze is soooooooooooooo much more beautiful. It is a soft mint white
> and not a bright shiny glaring hospital white. I remember my aunt and
> uncle's work when fired in a gas kiln was so much more rich so I suggeste=
d
> it. Anyone of the geeks out there know why it is far more superior. Even =
the
> clay colour was darker and richer. Is it the water and sulphur in the gas=
?
> cheers,
> Tony
>
>
tony clennell on sat 27 nov 10
I have only been lurking on Clayart for the past few months. Up to my
arse in alligators with students. Their work has consumed mine and I'm
itching for Christmas holidays when I can go to the studio every day
all by my lonesome. I have found out what it is like to put your pots
in someone else's hands. I have had some pretty nice work to be fired
at school in student firings. The work sucks! One firing they couldn't
lift the large casseroles (approximately 35 lbs) into the salt kiln so
they kinda went in on their sides and all the wads fell into the
middle of the casserole- what a mess. The second firing I get more
salt on my french fries- dry as a popcorn fart. So the lesson for me
is fire my own work and then I have no one to blame but myself.
I know now what all of you that belong to guilds are up against. I
never want to have to do this. I will always have a kiln even if it is
the size of a toaster oven.
As a point of interest I have a student doing Cone 04 majoica that is
very lovely. I convinced her to fire it in the gas kiln Oxidation 04.
The glaze is soooooooooooooo much more beautiful. It is a soft mint
white and not a bright shiny glaring hospital white. I remember my
aunt and uncle's work when fired in a gas kiln was so much more rich
so I suggested it. Anyone of the geeks out there know why it is far
more superior. Even the clay colour was darker and richer. Is it the
water and sulphur in the gas?
cheers,
Tony
Edouard Bastarache on sat 27 nov 10
Tony,
"La morale de cette histoire":
Stay at home in your own shop
GRIN
Gis,
Edouard Bastarache
Spertesperantisto
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30058682@N00/
http://edouardbastarache.blogspot.com/
http://blogsalbertbastarache.blogspot.com/
http://cerampeintures.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/edouard.bastarache
----- Original Message -----
From: "tony clennell"
To:
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2010 9:32 AM
Subject: You're fired!
>I have only been lurking on Clayart for the past few months. Up to my
> arse in alligators with students. Their work has consumed mine and I'm
> itching for Christmas holidays when I can go to the studio every day
> all by my lonesome. I have found out what it is like to put your pots
> in someone else's hands. I have had some pretty nice work to be fired
> at school in student firings. The work sucks! One firing they couldn't
> lift the large casseroles (approximately 35 lbs) into the salt kiln so
> they kinda went in on their sides and all the wads fell into the
> middle of the casserole- what a mess. The second firing I get more
> salt on my french fries- dry as a popcorn fart. So the lesson for me
> is fire my own work and then I have no one to blame but myself.
> I know now what all of you that belong to guilds are up against. I
> never want to have to do this. I will always have a kiln even if it is
> the size of a toaster oven.
> As a point of interest I have a student doing Cone 04 majoica that is
> very lovely. I convinced her to fire it in the gas kiln Oxidation 04.
> The glaze is soooooooooooooo much more beautiful. It is a soft mint
> white and not a bright shiny glaring hospital white. I remember my
> aunt and uncle's work when fired in a gas kiln was so much more rich
> so I suggested it. Anyone of the geeks out there know why it is far
> more superior. Even the clay colour was darker and richer. Is it the
> water and sulphur in the gas?
> cheers,
> Tony
>
Victoria E. Hamilton on sat 27 nov 10
Hello Tony and all -
I got it!
This is precisely why, in my teaching/cooperative studio/art center
situation, I usually manage to fire my own work. If the work is really,
really important, I make sure I fire it. Students do not fire the reductio=
n
kiln - we are a team of 3 who fire our wonderful 46-year old updraft A.D.
Alpine kiln. The other members of my team (we call ourselves "The Firing
Squad") are attentive to their firings in their way, and I am attentive in
my way. The differences in the results are mostly subtle, but there are
differences.
Cheers, and best for the season!
Vicki Hamilton
Seattle, where the Thanksgiving snow and ice has disappeared and is replace=
d
with rain.
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of tony clennell
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2010 6:32 AM
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: You're fired!
I have only been lurking on Clayart for the past few months. Up to my arse
in alligators with students. Their work has consumed mine and I'm itching
for Christmas holidays when I can go to the studio every day all by my
lonesome. I have found out what it is like to put your pots in someone
else's hands. I have had some pretty nice work to be fired at school in
student firings. The work sucks! One firing they couldn't lift the large
casseroles (approximately 35 lbs) into the salt kiln so they kinda went in
on their sides and all the wads fell into the middle of the casserole- what
a mess. The second firing I get more salt on my french fries- dry as a
popcorn fart. So the lesson for me is fire my own work and then I have no
one to blame but myself.
I know now what all of you that belong to guilds are up against. I never
want to have to do this. I will always have a kiln even if it is the size o=
f
a toaster oven.
As a point of interest I have a student doing Cone 04 majoica that is very
lovely. I convinced her to fire it in the gas kiln Oxidation 04.
The glaze is soooooooooooooo much more beautiful. It is a soft mint white
and not a bright shiny glaring hospital white. I remember my aunt and
uncle's work when fired in a gas kiln was so much more rich so I suggested
it. Anyone of the geeks out there know why it is far more superior. Even th=
e
clay colour was darker and richer. Is it the water and sulphur in the gas?
cheers,
Tony
ivor and olive lewis on sun 28 nov 10
Dear Tony Clennell,
You ask <that is very lovely. I convinced her to fire it in the gas kiln Oxidation
04.
The glaze is soooooooooooooo much more beautiful. It is a soft mint white
and not a bright shiny glaring hospital white.>>
At this distance and without considerably more information there are two
scenarios that might have to be considered. I am going to make an assumptio=
n
that the Majolica surface is non reflective, that it has a degree of
mattness, possibly the appearance of a "Mint Imperial".
So either (A) The glaze may be underfired and some of the ingredients have
not become incorporated into the vitreous Silicate solution. Or (B) The
cooling characteristics of the gas fired kiln are such that sufficient heat
is retained for a period of time that allows some compound or other to
crystallise out of a fully homogeneous vitreous solution.
I am concerned about the degree of supervision and quality of instruction
being given to your students.
The events you describe suggest they are not aware of constraints and
necessary , possibly mandatory protocols that are applicable when firing a
communal kiln. As you describe the event, your students worked in a
situation without adequate supervision. You should exercise greater caution
in the selection of examples of what should be included in a firing to
demonstrate the educational aims and objective of the course you are
teaching. There may be Occupational Health, Safety and Welfare issues that
need to be considered.
Keep well and enjoy your winter break,
Sincere regards,
Ivor Lewis,
REDHILL,
South Australia
tony clennell on sun 28 nov 10
David: All good thoughts. We tried to fire the gas kiln in exactly the
same time as the electric. The cooling was also out in the same time.
The degree of cooling from shut down to 650C I'm not sure about. I
will monitor this next firing.
As for Ivor's comments about inadequate supervision- There are 5 gas
reduction kilns, a wood kiln, a salt kiln and 8 electrics. The studio
runs 24/7 and students fire kilns on their own. For faculty to be
there at all times would be out of the question. I don't think we want
a ceramics program that only operates when the faculty are present.
They learn to fire the kilns. Mistakes are made but they are well
prepared for safe operation of the kilns. You can fire safely and
still have bad firings. I still manage to here at home and I've been
at it for 3 decades. So many variables.
Cheers,
Tony
P.S It's Sunday morning and I'm home having a coffee. An hour away at
Sheridan some keener is firing a kiln. That makes me smile.
On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 12:37 AM, David Martin Hershey
wrote:
> Hi Tony,
>
> Could it be the slower cooling of the gas kiln?
>
> You could test it by doing another 04 firing in the gas kiln.
> Measure the temp every hour after it's shut down.
>
> Then design a firing down profile in the electric to match,
> and see what happens.
>
> If that doesn't work, measure the firing up profile too.
>
> Also, could it be reducing just a little?
>
> "She blinded me with science..." T. Dolby
>
> Best, DMH
>
> David Martin Hershey
> DMH Studio + Design
> 2629 Manhattan Ave #137
> Hermosa Beach =3DA0 CA =3DA0 USA
> 90254-2447 =3DA0424.241.3809
> http://www.dmhstudio.com/
> http://www.obamacardgold.com
> http://www.winetastingtrolley.com/
>>
>> Subject: You're fired!
>>
>> As a point of interest I have a student doing Cone 04 majoica that is ve=
=3D
ry
>> lovely. I convinced her to fire it in the gas kiln Oxidation 04.
>> The glaze is soooooooooooooo much more beautiful. It is a soft mint whit=
=3D
e
>> and not a bright shiny glaring hospital white. I remember my aunt and
>> uncle's work when fired in a gas kiln was so much more rich so I suggest=
=3D
ed
>> it. Anyone of the geeks out there know why it is far more superior. Even
>> the
>> clay colour was darker and richer. Is it the water and sulphur in the ga=
=3D
s?
>> cheers,
>> Tony
>>
>>
>
DJ Brewer on sun 28 nov 10
Dear Tony,
Ummm before you get "fired" for unsupervisoryness from a person a globe awa=
y
from you who did not see the firing, can you please send me the soft mint w=
hite
majolica recipe that did well in oxidation?
Thanks so much!
DJ the Totally Unsupervised
On Sunday, November 28, 2010 01:24:32 am you wrote:
> Dear Tony Clennell,
>
> You ask <> that is very lovely. I convinced her to fire it in the gas kiln Oxidation
> 04.
>
> The glaze is soooooooooooooo much more beautiful. It is a soft mint white
> and not a bright shiny glaring hospital white.>>
>
>
>
> At this distance and without considerably more information there are two
> scenarios that might have to be considered. I am going to make an
> assumption that the Majolica surface is non reflective, that it has a
> degree of mattness, possibly the appearance of a "Mint Imperial".
>
> So either (A) The glaze may be underfired and some of the ingredients hav=
e
> not become incorporated into the vitreous Silicate solution. Or (B) The
> cooling characteristics of the gas fired kiln are such that sufficient he=
at
> is retained for a period of time that allows some compound or other to
> crystallise out of a fully homogeneous vitreous solution.
>
>
>
> I am concerned about the degree of supervision and quality of instruction
> being given to your students.
>
> The events you describe suggest they are not aware of constraints and
> necessary , possibly mandatory protocols that are applicable when firing=
a
> communal kiln. As you describe the event, your students worked in a
> situation without adequate supervision. You should exercise greater cauti=
on
> in the selection of examples of what should be included in a firing to
> demonstrate the educational aims and objective of the course you are
> teaching. There may be Occupational Health, Safety and Welfare issues tha=
t
> need to be considered.
>
> Keep well and enjoy your winter break,
>
> Sincere regards,
>
> Ivor Lewis,
> REDHILL,
> South Australia
Lee Love on sun 28 nov 10
On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 8:32 AM, tony clennell wr=
=3D
ote:
> The glaze is soooooooooooooo much more beautiful. It is a soft mint
> white and not a bright shiny glaring hospital white. I remember my
> aunt and uncle's work when fired in a gas kiln was so much more rich
> so I suggested it. Anyone of the geeks out there know why it is far
> more superior. Even the clay colour was darker and richer. Is it the
> water and sulphur in the gas?
Tony, maybe the "more neutral" atmosphere helps. That, combined
with slow cooling. Have you ever looked at French Jaspe' ware?
It is woodfired, is more folksy, and feels warmer than what we usually
thing of as majolica.
--=3D20
--
=3DA0Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
tony clennell on sun 28 nov 10
Lee: I have another student doing 04 Jasper ware complete with all the
multiple sprigging. She is doing a good job of the very ornate press
molded handles. Our second year program is exclusively high fire and
yet this year in the final third year group there is only one student
doing high fire. Perhaps it is facing up to what will be their reality
when they leave school or perhaps it is just easier to program ramps
and go home. I am liking the 04 work and can foresee Sheila and
switching over at some point.
Nice to be surrounded by people doing different things with clay and atmosp=
=3D
here.
Cheers,
tc
On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 11:25 AM, Lee Love wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 8:32 AM, tony clennell =
=3D
wrote:
>
>> The glaze is soooooooooooooo much more beautiful. It is a soft mint
>> white and not a bright shiny glaring hospital white. I remember my
>> aunt and uncle's work when fired in a gas kiln was so much more rich
>> so I suggested it. Anyone of the geeks out there know why it is far
>> more superior. Even the clay colour was darker and richer. Is it the
>> water and sulphur in the gas?
>
> =3DA0Tony, =3DA0maybe the "more neutral" atmosphere helps. =3DA0 That, co=
mbined
> with slow cooling. =3DA0 =3DA0Have you ever looked at French Jaspe' ware?
> It is woodfired, is more folksy, and feels warmer than what we usually
> thing of as majolica.
>
> --
> --
> =3DA0Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
> http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
>
> =3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
> the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
>
--=3D20
Tony Clennell, =3DA0MFA, RCA
Studio Potter, Educator, Author
http://sourcherrypottery.com
http://smokieclennell.blogspot.com
Lee Love on sun 28 nov 10
On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 10:56 AM, tony clennell w=
=3D
rote:
> and go home. I am liking the 04 work and can foresee Sheila and
> switching over at some point.
I've been experimenting with cone 1. It rings more nicely than
porcelain. When I get space, I will fire in soda. So, good luck!
Ron Meyers work lives in high fire and earlthware most easily.
> Nice to be surrounded by people doing different things with clay and atmo=
=3D
sphere.
I complain about not being able to fire at home (That will
change in the new year), but the best thing about firing at Clay
Center is being exposed to all kinds of work. Often, the most
inspiring work is most unlike your own.
In May I'll be an artist of the month at NCC with
Posey Bacopoulos and Victoria Christen. They both do amazing work!
I was looking at Posey's work at the holiday show, and what is so
inspiring about it to me, is that she doesn't let form be neglected
under all that wonderful decoration. Her forms are as good as they
get! So, their good work inspires me to do better.
--
=3DA0Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
Snail Scott on mon 29 nov 10
On Nov 29, 2010, at 10:29 AM, Stephani Stephenson wrote:
> 1. SOAK you can soak at the high end in a gas kiln. if you have a
> manual
> electric with a kilnsitter, you can't soak. I suppose this comes
> under the
> heading of heat/work too.
Well, you can, but not if you use the kiln
sitter as a shutoff device and walk away.
If you turn the kiln down (not off, but down)
after the witness cones read your intended
cone, you can indeed soak. It's simply not
automatic. You can do a high soak or a
controlled cool in this way. You just have
to be there to make it happen.
-Snail
Snail Scott on mon 29 nov 10
On Nov 27, 2010, at 8:32 AM, tony clennell wrote:
> ... I convinced her to fire it in the gas kiln Oxidation 04.
> The glaze is soooooooooooooo much more beautiful...anyone of the
> geeks out there know why it is far
> more superior...?
I think that duration of firing, and more to the
point, duration of cooling, are a huge factor.
Gas versus electricity is the obvious difference
in the way we typically describe them, but
most electric kilns are little thin-walled things
compared with the usual gas kiln.
Also, it's not always a true neutral atmosphere
when firing 'oxidation' in a gas kiln. It might be
oxidizing _on average_, but may drift toward
reduction in some places and times.
-Snail
Dinah Snipes Steveni on mon 29 nov 10
Could the firing schedules (gas & electric) for that student's oxidized maj=
olica glaze please be shared. Excellent glazes for majolica abound (referen=
ce M Ostermann's The New Maiolica, and D Carnegy's Tin-glazed Earthenware).=
The firing schedules are of marginally greater interest; but I wouldn't sa=
y no to having a look at student's glaze formula either. Thanks.
PS: That "hospital white" is easily knocked back with a smidgeon of rutile=
. Test.
Dinah
http://www.dinahsnipessteveni.com
jd.steveni@comcast.com
Plein Air Washington
FB Dianthus Visual Arts Page
Stephani Stephenson on mon 29 nov 10
Tony
In the past I also thought I noticed a more yummy effect with majolica =
=3D
in
a gas fire v. electric fire, and i also heard the same things you mention=
=3D
,about the moisture in the firing making a difference.=3D20
I can't say if that is or isn't true, though I ,too, certainly thought i=
=3D
t
could be true. it is one of those cases where you chose to believe it or
not, because who knows if there is any evidence to back that up? and unle=
=3D
ss
that particular type of work is your work, you may never get to observe i=
=3D
t
enough to come to your own definite conclusions.
However, I will tell you I have seen majolica work that I swore came out=
=3D
of
a gas fire, that was indeed fired in an electric kiln.
what I mean by yummy is what you mean by yummy, i think. that ,not only =
=3D
is
the glazed surface itself more complex or appealing, the glaze and
claybody interact more. the red clay and the glaze are melting together=
=3D
,
the clay shows through in the thin spots and there is a less stark divisi=
=3D
on
between where the clay ends and the glaze begins, otherwise known as the=
=3D
interface. something to appreciate at cone 04.
I think there are a couple of factors.
1. SOAK you can soak at the high end in a gas kiln. if you have a manual
electric with a kilnsitter, you can't soak. I suppose this comes under th=
=3D
e
heading of heat/work too.
2.HEAT. you can 'overfire' in a gas kiln. Maybe the work actually got a
little hotter in the gas fire. I discovered some amazing differences when=
=3D
i
fired my work to cone 03, 02, or 01 instead of 04, realizing that , even=
=3D
using "cone 04 " clay and glazes, the work , the clay as well as the glaz=
=3D
e,
can be underfired at that temp.=3D20
3. COOLING. fast cooling can choke the visual complexity out of some gla=
=3D
zes.
Slow cooling encourages crystalline development. it allows the clay and
glaze to remain at a higher temp for longer. higher temp is where the
molten molecular interaction is!
my electric kiln has walls that are 7 inches thick. it takes a week for t=
=3D
he
kiln to cool down if I don't crack the lid. Glazes I thought were boring
suddenly became very interesting in this kiln. those with programmable
electrics have the technology to do this in any kiln.
=3D20
5.CLAY. I think the real factor in majolica isn't the glaze so much as th=
=3D
e
clay. some clays flux differently and mature differently than others. It=
=3D
is
the clay/glaze interaction that brings out the spice in red clay and
majolica . maybe this student's clay isn;t really mature at cone 04 . Sh=
=3D
e
might try finding a red clay that actually matures at a lower temp, con=
=3D
e
06-04, or and try adapting on or more of the above factors .
6.Oxidation/reduction variation. this is another one of those things I wo=
=3D
n't
swear to, but wonder about. In a wood fire you have periods of reductio=
=3D
n
and oxidation that cycle throughout the firiing as fuel is added and burn=
=3D
ed,
as weather influences atmospheric conditions (wind, humidity, etc) . In a=
=3D
gas firing the same thing,=3D20
there can be greater fluctuations in atmosphere than in a similar firing =
=3D
in
an electric kiln. i have often wondered if this contributed to the resul=
=3D
ts.
especially with iron clay, there would be periods where the iron in the c=
=3D
lay
is fluxing in reduction, then oxidizing again...
that gets complicated, because of temperatures and melting, etc. but agai=
=3D
n,
in my mind , anyway , I can see this having an effect. maybe even a majo=
=3D
r
effect.=3D20
happy firing and/or coffee sipping!
Stephani=3D20
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