David Woof on tue 14 dec 10
I like Paul Herman's idea of the warm water from his geo-thermo hot tub and=
=3D
all that cardio exercize from the bucket trips as a side benefit. Vince t=
=3D
oo has cited some very safe practical methods.
=3D20
However for all who are really scared of your propane tank=3D2C and in defe=
ns=3D
e of a time honored method(ie torching your tank) employed since there were=
=3D
propane tanks=3D2C here's why it works safely: a hydrocarbon/combustible g=
as=3D
will not burn untill it gets mixed with oxygen so unless one stupidly buil=
=3D
ds such a huge fire that the a rubber supply hose or copper tube burns thro=
=3D
ugh you won't have a fire from the gas inside or outside the tank.=3D20
And you won't have an out of control fire at the burnt end of the line beca=
=3D
use the regulator limits the discharge and the regulator will prevent a bac=
=3D
k flash getting into the tank which in turn wouldn't blow anyway even witho=
=3D
ut the regulator as long as there is a positive preasure (read outward flow=
=3D
) in the tank. Positive preasure exiting through a small hole allows no in=
=3D
ward flow of air/oxygen to cause the gas to become an internal gas/oxygen m=
=3D
ixture that will burn explosively!!! It is only an emptied tank that has th=
=3D
e potential to back flash and explode and in this senerio one has time whil=
=3D
e gas is still exiting to either turn off the gas valve or grap mama and ba=
=3D
bies and sprint over the hill and down the draw before the boom.
=3D20
So for all the years of my northern propane experience=3D2C very safety con=
ci=3D
ous but informed potters=3D2C myself included=3D2C have judiciously used li=
ve f=3D
lame or coals to heat a propane tank. As the tank starts to freeze and fla=
=3D
me at the burners slows I"ve used the burner itself to heat the tank enough=
=3D
to increase the gas flow to finish a raku firing. Did it this weekend=3D3=
B =3D
the tank was running towards empty=3D2C last firing of the day - ice formin=
g =3D
on tank - preasure dropping - three or four min. of warming the tank with t=
=3D
he burner and finished off with success and went home with all body parts =
=3D
intact.
=3D20
However this is only my experience=3D2C I am not advocating this method to=
a=3D
nyone. I do take this very seriously=3D2C have informed myself=3D2C and kno=
w wh=3D
at I am doing. Don't try this at home or without the consult and supervisi=
=3D
on of a certified gas technician.=3D20
=3D20
David Woof....Clarkdale=3D2C AZ.
________________________________________________________________________
7d. Re: Propane in winter
Posted by: "Vince Pitelka" vpitelka@DTCCOM.NET=3D20
Date: Mon Dec 13=3D2C 2010 9:46 am ((PST))
When raku-firing during the winter in Fargo=3D2C our 20-lb propane tanks al=
wa=3D
ys
froze up if we didn't heat them. At first we poured hot water over them=3D2=
C
but of course that just froze on the ground and created a deadly ice slick.
Then we got one of those flexible rubber tubs for mixing masonry=3D2C set t=
he
tank in that=3D2C and poured in a few gallons of hot water. That did the tr=
ic=3D
k
beautifully=3D2C but would not be a solution for an overnight firing. I wou=
ld
imagine that those low-wattage heat-tapes used in rain gutters and
downspouts could work well to keep the propane tank from freezing up.
There's gotta be a safe=3D2C reasonably-priced solution.
- Vince
=3D20
=3D
Lee Love on wed 15 dec 10
On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 9:14 PM, Vince Pitelka wrote:
> probably so old that it is not in the archives. =3DA0I suggested a cheap =
wa=3D
ter
> heater located in a nearby shed, and a cheap water circulating pump,
That would work and would be easier.
At Mugendo in Mashiko (a junk/antique shop) they had a really cool
copper wood stove that was also a water heater. I really wanted that
stove. A wood water heater might be a way to go too.
At Zuioji Monastery in Shikoku, Japan: for years, heated their
community bath with a woodfire oven beneath the big bathtub. But
shortly before we arrived, they installed a woodfired water heater.
Looked like a bigger American style water heater, except you stoked a
little box at the bottom of the tank. Used to take more than one
person, but the new water heater only required one person to stoke.
Many Mashiko houses had little woodfired water heaters for
their bathtubs. They were extremely simple and located behind the
house..
When they first built Hokyoji Monastery in New Albin Iowa, we
didn't have electricity and used a propane refrigerator.
--
=3DA0Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
Larry Andre on wed 15 dec 10
?You asked for a quick fix. Move to warmer climes, I am just kidding, but
proper insulation and the electric blanket might help. Just do nothing to
kill yourself.
-----Original Message-----
From: Amy Romaniec
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 6:49 PM
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Propane in winter/Dopes!!!
Folks.thank you for this thread.
I am excited that i have so many options.
I have a 500gal propane tank, a 35 cubic ft kiln and 2 big bertha
burners.
I plan to fire in the next week ^10 and it is 10 -15 degrees out ther=
e
now.UGH
Well,I had hoped it might get up to 25 but I will fire non the less. stuf=
f
has got to be in the mail by the 30th .
so i pre heat my shelves on top the wood burner makes it kinda fun stackin=
g
I am in luck as my burners do not reach out to the tank so that option is
out .
I do have a long extension cord and a couple hair dryers and a heating
blanket that will have to do. LOL Might heat some fire brick up and plac=
e
them under the blanket
Hey what about my electric heater and a tarp??
My propane tank tank is full --will that help?
Amy in Pa
> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 17:13:22 -0600
> From: vpitelka@DTCCOM.NET
> Subject: Re: Propane in winter/Dopes!!!
> To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>
> I would like to offer what I hope will be seen as a bit of clarity, from
> the
> standpoint of someone with 40 years of experience in ceramics,
> kiln-building, welding/fabrication, burner systems, etc. I want to say
> categorically that it is NEVER, EVER okay to heat up a propane tank with =
a
> gas burner or gas torch in any studio ceramics situation. I appreciate
> David's good intentions, but he should have known better than to even
> mention this on Clayart, because there is no guarantee that other people
> are
> going to approach this incredibly dangerous situation with experience or
> even common sense. David, are you willing to accept responsibility for
> that? What could you have been thinking?
>
> Again, no-how, no-way, is it EVER appropriate to heat a propane tank with
> a
> gas burner! Don't even think about it!
>
> I thought about capitalizing those two sentences so that I would be
> perceived as yelling, but decided that the exclamation points are enough.
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Craft
> Tennessee Tech University
> vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
=3D
John Britt on wed 15 dec 10
David,
The key phrase here is "DON"T TORCH THE TANK -DOPES"!
How many grave stones are carved with the final words : "I know what I am=
=3D
=3D20
doing" ?
John Britt
www.johnbrittpottery.com
David Woof on wed 15 dec 10
Hi John=3D2C=3D20
you are absolutely right=3D2C Dopes should not torch the tanks!!! I sa=
id=3D
much to that effect also in both of my previous posts on this subject.
=3D20
Respectfully=3D2C you have your area of expertise and do well there. I ha=
ve=3D
mine as well=3D2C and I seriously do know what I am doing.
=3D20
I did not write those posts to encourage "dopes and dummies" to torch their=
=3D
tanks=3D2C but offered to contribute to the accumulation of knowledge=3D2C=
dis=3D
pel irrational fears=3D2C and encourage education and understanding of the =
ph=3D
ysics involved=3D3B the how and why things work.=3D20
=3D20
As I've reminded many times=3D3B folks only fear what they don't understand=
a=3D
nd so develop myths to fill the void=3D2C which when repeated often enough =
be=3D
come unquestioned traditional thought based on error and false hoods. =3D2=
0
=3D20
I am distressed and disgusted by this rampant intellectual laziness which i=
=3D
s the breeding ground and rookery of irrational fears that cripple and para=
=3D
lyze creative thought. Some times the "Dummies" in rags are humble enough =
=3D
to consider and at some level comprehend and act on what the accomplished h=
=3D
ave become too self assured (read: haughty) to contemplate.
=3D20
So I also wrote to gently confront the summary labeling of folks whose beha=
=3D
vior we don't understand without considering that there is still knowledge =
=3D
we don't yet possess no matter how expert we may assume we are in our field=
=3D
.
=3D20
John I think you stepped right into it in your haste......
=3D20
Be well=3D2C =3D20
I sincerely appreciate the dedication your work gives evidence=3D2C and the=
i=3D
nformation you generously share.
=3D20
David Woof
**********************************
John sez:< David=3D2C
The key phrase here is "DON"T TORCH THE TANK -DOPES"!
How many grave stones are carved with the final words : "I know what I am=
=3D20
doing" ?>
John Britt
www.johnbrittpottery.com
=3D20
=3D20
=3D
John Britt on wed 15 dec 10
David,
You do what you want .......but regardless of the "reasons" for your choi=
=3D
ces, I=3D20
would recommend that no one else tries this!
There are much safer ways!
John Britt
www.johnbrittpottery.com
Vince Pitelka on wed 15 dec 10
I would like to offer what I hope will be seen as a bit of clarity, from th=
e
standpoint of someone with 40 years of experience in ceramics,
kiln-building, welding/fabrication, burner systems, etc. I want to say
categorically that it is NEVER, EVER okay to heat up a propane tank with a
gas burner or gas torch in any studio ceramics situation. I appreciate
David's good intentions, but he should have known better than to even
mention this on Clayart, because there is no guarantee that other people ar=
e
going to approach this incredibly dangerous situation with experience or
even common sense. David, are you willing to accept responsibility for
that? What could you have been thinking?
Again, no-how, no-way, is it EVER appropriate to heat a propane tank with a
gas burner! Don't even think about it!
I thought about capitalizing those two sentences so that I would be
perceived as yelling, but decided that the exclamation points are enough.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Dale Neese on wed 15 dec 10
Eh, those are the times when people are tempted to do outrageous things
involving dangerous actions are like.... "hey, hold my beer, watch this".
They
never knew what hit them.
Dale Tex
"across the alley from the Alamo"
Helotes, Texas USA
www.daleneese.com
__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
database 5706 (20101215) __________
The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
http://www.eset.com
__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature=
database 5706 (20101215) __________
The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
http://www.eset.com
David Woof on wed 15 dec 10
Oh John=3D2C....lighten up will you.... I am not advising it to anyone eith=
er=3D
as anyone reading my clearly stated posts would understand. You can't ref=
=3D
ute my considered statements of fact=3D2C so it seems you ignore them.
=3D20
I didn't set out to change anyone's mind and I especially didn't set out to=
=3D
suffer the obstinate and closed minded.
Could it be that you may want to be or have the last word of authority on t=
=3D
his=3D2C so if this is so=3D2C have at it=3D2C you can be my esteemed and h=
onored=3D
guest. I could be wrong about your intention=3D2C as I am on occasion=3D2=
C so=3D
I have my own plate of crow awaiting in the freezer.
=3D20
Let's share a muddy handshake and move on.
=3D20
Misneach=3D2C
=3D20
David Woof.... signing off: I have pots to make - new exciting glazes to d=
=3D
evelop - and if I don't get in tip top shape for wearing my Santa suit some=
=3D
naughty gal is going to have a not so merry holiday. (manly "that look" sm=
=3D
ile) (not leering! dummies!)
=3D20
Just can't let her down....the reputation of all the Irish Clans and at lea=
=3D
st one Native American nation rests on my shoulders. (smile) How's thin=
=3D
gs going for you John? Whatcha got goin on? (more smiles) =3D20
=3D20
Love to all....and to all good food=3D2C fine beverages=3D2C attentive love=
rs=3D
=3D2C and kilns loaded with care....in hopes that John Britt's rich glazes =
so=3D
on will shine there.
=3D20
*************************************
=3D20
John sez more: <"David=3D2C
You do what you want .......but regardless of the "reasons" for your choice=
=3D
s=3D2C I=3D20
would recommend that no one else tries this! [[[[Woof sez: agreed! =
=3D
as I said before=3D3B anyone still sticking their tongue on sub zero (-0 f)=
m=3D
ail boxes and pump handles after the age of 10 could probably screw this up=
=3D
as well.]]]]
There are much safer ways!"> [[[[ Woof sez: John=3D2C this may be your =
be=3D
lief=3D2C but in this instance "safer" is not a condition you can prove.]]]=
]
John Britt
www.johnbrittpottery.com>
=3D20
=3D20
=3D
Larry Kruzan on wed 15 dec 10
There are few things more dangerous than heating a propane tank with a
torch. Three years ago in North Pekin Illinois, there was a propane belevy
at a propane station. This explosion destroyed the business and several
homes. It severely injured four employees and you would not believe the
reports that came from the people who witnessed the employees running from
the site with their clothes burning.
Although the cause of this disaster was not heating a tank with a torch it
was later proved that a very small amount of propane that was leaking from =
a
tank that had been delivered was lying near the floor of the refill house -
that's where they refill the small tanks - when the employee turned a large
tank there was a small spark and disaster struck. Don't go there.
One of the employees was a member of our towns volunteer fire Department. H=
e
was unable to work due to his injuries and for physical therapy for over tw=
o
years as he slowly, slowly recovered. He will deal with this for the rest o=
f
his life - it's not worth the risk to get a firing done.
Larry Kruzan
Lost Creek Pottery
www.lostcreekpottery.com
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
(Email Guard: 7.0.0.18, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16520)
http://www.pctools.com/
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Lee Love on wed 15 dec 10
I wonder if anybody has ever made a water heat exchanger that uses
heat from the chimney to warm water to keep propane tanks warm?
Also, it would be easy to make an enclosure with styrofoam board to
reduce the amount of warmth you had to generate.
Certainly, liquid draw gets around the problem too.
--
=3DA0Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
Amy Romaniec on wed 15 dec 10
Folks.thank you for this thread.
I am excited that i have so many options.
I have a 500gal propane tank=3D2C a 35 cubic ft kiln and 2 big bertha b=
ur=3D
ners.
I plan to fire in the next week ^10 and it is 10 -15 degrees out ther=
=3D
e now.UGH
Well=3D2CI had hoped it might get up to 25 but I will fire non the less. =
st=3D
uff has got to be in the mail by the 30th .
so i pre heat my shelves on top the wood burner makes it kinda fun stackin=
=3D
g
I am in luck as my burners do not reach out to the tank so that option is=
=3D
out .=3D20
I do have a long extension cord and a couple hair dryers and a heating bla=
=3D
nket that will have to do. LOL Might heat some fire brick up and place t=
=3D
hem under the blanket=3D20
Hey what about my electric heater and a tarp??
My propane tank tank is full --will that help?
Amy in Pa
> Date: Wed=3D2C 15 Dec 2010 17:13:22 -0600
> From: vpitelka@DTCCOM.NET
> Subject: Re: Propane in winter/Dopes!!!
> To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>=3D20
> I would like to offer what I hope will be seen as a bit of clarity=3D2C f=
ro=3D
m the
> standpoint of someone with 40 years of experience in ceramics=3D2C
> kiln-building=3D2C welding/fabrication=3D2C burner systems=3D2C etc. I w=
ant to=3D
say
> categorically that it is NEVER=3D2C EVER okay to heat up a propane tank w=
it=3D
h a
> gas burner or gas torch in any studio ceramics situation. I appreciate
> David's good intentions=3D2C but he should have known better than to even
> mention this on Clayart=3D2C because there is no guarantee that other peo=
pl=3D
e are
> going to approach this incredibly dangerous situation with experience or
> even common sense. David=3D2C are you willing to accept responsibility f=
or
> that? What could you have been thinking?
>=3D20
> Again=3D2C no-how=3D2C no-way=3D2C is it EVER appropriate to heat a propa=
ne tan=3D
k with a
> gas burner! Don't even think about it!
>=3D20
> I thought about capitalizing those two sentences so that I would be
> perceived as yelling=3D2C but decided that the exclamation points are eno=
ug=3D
h.
> - Vince
>=3D20
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Craft
> Tennessee Tech University
> vpitelka@dtccom.net=3D3B wpitelka@tntech.edu
> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
=3D
Philip Poburka on wed 15 dec 10
Hi Lee,
What a good idea.
It could just be a simple free breathing Thermosyphon arrangement, and an
old Car or Refrigerator Radiator or other, or finned Copper Pipes for the
Heat Exchange at the enclosed Tank Body, the enclose being vented at the
bottom of course, could even have a little Electric Fan on a Rheostat to
move Air slowly through the Heat Exchange...using some Prestone or other
Antifreeze if need be so it does not itself become frozen when needed...or,
Water would be added to the system when needed and once a little warmth is
going...and drained out afterward.
Safe, simple, fun, efficient, and would not cost much to do a very nice Job
of, either.
Phil
Lv.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Love"
I wonder if anybody has ever made a water heat exchanger that uses
heat from the chimney to warm water to keep propane tanks warm?
Also, it would be easy to make an enclosure with styrofoam board to
reduce the amount of warmth you had to generate.
Certainly, liquid draw gets around the problem too.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
Vince Pitelka on wed 15 dec 10
Lee Love wrote:
I wonder if anybody has ever made a water heat exchanger that uses heat fro=
m
the chimney to warm water to keep propane tanks warm? Also, it would be eas=
y
to make an enclosure with styrofoam board to reduce the amount of warmth yo=
u
had to generate.
Lee -
Years ago I wrote a post to Clayart about exactly this subject, but using a
propane hot water heater rather than heat form the chimney. That post is
probably so old that it is not in the archives. I suggested a cheap water
heater located in a nearby shed, and a cheap water circulating pump, with a
tight wrap of flexible plastic pipe around the tank, fiberglass insulation
around that, and foam insulation around the pipes going to and from. I
think that the gas consumption of the water heater would be very low if the
tank is well insulated. It would be a simple matter to install a normal
household thermostat on the outside of the tank, set at 50 degrees
Fahrenheit, controlling the circulating pump. The water heater's built-in
thermostat would take care of itself. It would be a cheap, effective syste=
m
for firing in very cold weather.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Larry Andre on wed 15 dec 10
?
Be very careful. Unless you have the proper pressure relief valves do not
try this. The results if done wrong can be an explosion since you would hav=
e
super heated water in a closed system without room for expansion. In theory
the pipes could explode and then rupture the propane tanks. Your best bet i=
s
to wrap the tanks in fiberglass insulation, and all the hoses in pipe
insulation. Whatever you do please be careful and check out your plans with
a plumber and building officials first. Firing with propane in the winter i=
s
not worth dying for. L
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Love
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 5:16 PM
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Propane in winter/Dopes!!!
I wonder if anybody has ever made a water heat exchanger that uses
heat from the chimney to warm water to keep propane tanks warm?
Also, it would be easy to make an enclosure with styrofoam board to
reduce the amount of warmth you had to generate.
Certainly, liquid draw gets around the problem too.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
"Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent." --Rumi
Lee Love on wed 15 dec 10
On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 9:51 PM, wrote:
> ?
> Be very careful. Unless you have the proper pressure relief valves do not
> try this.
Yeah, don't be a jackass.
You really don't want to "super heat" water. You just want to
warm it to normal temperate temps, summer time temps or so. Most
brick chimneys can be touched with a bare hand. You can wrap copper
tubing around the stack. A small pump could circulate the water.
I've heard of someone doing something similar for supplimental
heating.
Wrapping tanks with ss would be a pain. You could make covers or a
simple enclosure made of styrofoam board. But you need a gentle heat
source. Just wrappng in fiberglass will not keep them warm. The cold
is created internally, as the LPG pressure is lowered:
The law is pV=3D3DnRT.
Basically, if the amount of gas (n) is constant (i.e. a closed tank),
and the pressure (p) goes down, the temperature of the gas (T) goes
down as well.
Conversely, if the pressure goes up (i.e. you squeeze more gas into a
space), the temperature goes up.
And yes, you=3D92re using up propane more of the liquid propane is
converting to gaseous propane due to the lower pressure, so the (n) is
basically constant. Therefore the pressure change causes more cooling
than the loss of gas causes heating.
--
=3DA0Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
Dan Hill on thu 16 dec 10
Hi Amy
With a full 500 gal. tank you will have no problem firing your 35 cu. ft.
kiln. without heating the tank with burners or any other safer option.
I have similar setup and only have tank freeze up when the tank is near
empty.
Dan Hill
Hill Pottery
^6 soda fired porcelain and stoneware
Folks.thank you for this thread.
I am excited that i have so many options.
I have a 500gal propane tank, a 35 cubic ft kiln and 2 big bertha
burners.
I plan to fire in the next week ^10 and it is 10 -15 degrees out ther=
e
now.UGH
Well,I had hoped it might get up to 25 but I will fire non the less. stuf=
f
has got to be in the mail by the 30th .
so i pre heat my shelves on top the wood burner makes it kinda fun stackin=
g
I am in luck as my burners do not reach out to the tank so that option is
out .
I do have a long extension cord and a couple hair dryers and a heating
blanket that will have to do. LOL Might heat some fire brick up and plac=
e
them under the blanket
Hey what about my electric heater and a tarp??
My propane tank tank is full --will that help?
Amy in Pa
>
Paul Herman on thu 16 dec 10
Amy,
If your 500 gallon tank is full, you don't need to worry about the
tank freezing up. If you were down to 30% or 35% of the tanks capacity
(150-175 gallons) then you could have some freezing problems.
Fire away!
best wishes,
Paul Herman
Great Basin Pottery
Doyle, California US
www.greatbasinpottery.com/
On Dec 15, 2010, at 6:49 PM, Amy Romaniec wrote:
> Folks.thank you for this thread.
> I am excited that i have so many options.
> I have a 500gal propane tank, a 35 cubic ft kiln and 2 big
> bertha burners.
> I plan to fire in the next week ^10 and it is 10 -15 degrees
> out there now.UGH
> Well,I had hoped it might get up to 25 but I will fire non the
> less. stuff has got to be in the mail by the 30th .
>
> so i pre heat my shelves on top the wood burner makes it kinda fun
> stacking
>
> I am in luck as my burners do not reach out to the tank so that
> option is out .
> I do have a long extension cord and a couple hair dryers and a
> heating blanket that will have to do. LOL Might heat some fire
> brick up and place them under the blanket
> Hey what about my electric heater and a tarp??
> My propane tank tank is full --will that help?
> Amy in Pa
Lee Love on thu 16 dec 10
On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Philip Poburka wrote:
> Antifreeze if need be so it does not itself become frozen when needed...o=
=3D
r,
> Water would be added to the system when needed and once a little warmth i=
=3D
s
> going...and drained out afterward.
Yes, antifreeze would be a essential. A water system like you
describe would be easier than making a heat sink for an air system
(air system plans I have seen require large diameter conduit running
through gravel pits in the ground. Which might work better as
supplemental heating for the studio.)
--
=3DA0Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
David Woof on sat 18 dec 10
Hi Vince and everyone=3D2C......I agree=3D2C Propane is a powerful and exp=
losi=3D
ve material and if used improperly will without doubt cause serious life th=
=3D
reatening injury or fatality.
I too realize that this thread is a no win because no matter how hard we wo=
=3D
rk to educate for good=3D2C someone somewhere will take that information an=
d =3D
turn it to harmful purpose. And if we chose not to educate=3D2C the conseq=
ue=3D
nces are still the same........fools will rise to the level of their ignora=
=3D
nce and faulty reasoning. You're right Vince=3D2C what the hell was I thin=
ki=3D
ng? Still..... my posts were a labor of love for my fellow firers of clay.=
=3D
=3D20
respectfully=3D2C here is what I was thinking=3D3B
I was not the first in this convoluted thread to post mention of live fire =
=3D
under a large propane tank and that poster referred to that person as a "Do=
=3D
rk" unsubstantiated by fact as to why he considered him a dork. The Subj=
=3D
ect (Re:) of this thread has changed at least 3 times so I'm sure that some=
=3D
of what was earlier said by myself and the originators is lost unless one =
=3D
cares enough to back track.
=3D20
So with the "cat already out of the bag" (North American idiom) and taking =
=3D
some issue with the "Dork" name calling=3D2C with best intentions as you s=
ay=3D
=3D2C I attempted to offer some factual information about the physical prop=
er=3D
ties of combustible gasses.. I cautioned that others should educate themse=
=3D
lves and not do it=3D2C just because I do=3D2C because something could be o=
verl=3D
ooked and go dangerously wrong for them.
=3D20
I maintain that accurate information is much preferred to unsupported warni=
=3D
ngs. I have not seen anyone come up with facts or even statistical data t=
=3D
o support this clamor of "it's not safe." So I challenged this with inform=
=3D
ation of fact and I still ask for fact! I am not satisfied with labels li=
=3D
ke "Dork" "Stupid" Extremely Unsafe"......Let's finish this!!! Many beli=
=3D
efs topple or change when confronted with a sincere "why?"
=3D20
The closest we got to research was from Lee who obviously googled most of t=
=3D
he information he shared=3D2C but kudos to him that he did it! Which is w=
ha=3D
t I was encouraging=3D3B research and information on a subject vital to saf=
e =3D
practice of our craft as well as efficient use of our valuable studio time.=
=3D
=3D20
=3D20
Aside from several simple and practical solutions cited=3D2C most of the id=
ea=3D
s offered for solutions to tank freezing sounded like the stuff of inventiv=
=3D
e pipe dreams=3D2C much like the "we're gonna do.... we could do" of our y=
ou=3D
thful lazy-daze in the park with our favorite indulgences. Not that I disp=
=3D
arage creative noodeling and brain storming but like potheads in the park n=
=3D
o one is going to build any of those fantastic solutions anyway (though it =
=3D
must have been idle fun to dream up!) so back we run to the shelter of "don=
=3D
't do its."
=3D20
With factual information one is less susceptible to being swayed and persu=
=3D
aded into unsafe practices and impulsively crazy ideas offered by others or=
=3D
spontaneously germinated in our own head. There are some stupidly suici=
=3D
dal things one can do with propane=3D2C it's handling=3D2C and storage tank=
s th=3D
at I didn't mention and some obvious mistakes and sheer thoughtless stupidi=
=3D
ty like not noticing or paying attention to a leak.....but these things are=
=3D
the outside of the tank issues. =3D20
=3D20
If one could induce an electrostatic spark inside the tank itself=3D2C it s=
ti=3D
ll could not explode because of the lack of oxygen inside the tank. However=
=3D
an empty tank is another very dangerous animal. Which is why if your lar=
=3D
ge tank runs dry a tech must come out for a $75.00 fee to purge and safety =
=3D
check your system before allowing refilling. Did anyone have this misfortu=
=3D
ne and instead of asking the tech why it was necessary=3D2C just stand with=
h=3D
ands fiddling in your pockets? =3D20
=3D20
It is interesting to me that the hydrogen filled zeppelin=3D2C The Hindenbu=
rg=3D
devastatingly blew a group of folks all to hell at the same time gasoline=
=3D
was vying for ascendency over hydrogen as the accepted fuel of choice for =
=3D
development and proliferation of the internal combustion engine and airplan=
=3D
e flights. Sure scared ignorant folks away from a clean green fuel didn't=
=3D
it?!!!! Now hydrogen fuel is in vogue and industry spends billions to de=
=3D
velop efficient hydrogen fuel cells while other folks have been running the=
=3D
ir cars and hippie vans on home made hydrogen for years=3D2C and other folk=
h=3D
ave been hedging gasoline costs by giving their fuel ratio a boost from a "=
=3D
fruit jar" hydrogen generator under the hood for decades now. Some folks ar=
=3D
e not running with the fearful masses by asking intelligent questions and f=
=3D
inding factual answers with which to act safely and effectively. Answers ba=
=3D
sed on known physics.=3D20
=3D20
And as far as people taking and misusing what we discuss=3D3B if the stupid=
h=3D
aven't already died speeding off a cliff in a rainstorm=3D2C they will some=
ho=3D
w manage to F it up no matter how many cautions we express or how much info=
=3D
rmation we try to withhold for their own good=3D2C which to me is the ultim=
at=3D
e insult to anyone's intelligence and a violation of person. =3D20
My task is to educate not control=3D2C and I see knowledge as a protective =
po=3D
wer to possess and exercise. I have spent a share of my life training as a=
=3D
healer and protector but not to the impossible task of protecting fools fr=
=3D
om themselves. It is to each to build his own house before he moves into i=
=3D
t.
=3D20
David Woof.......Saying it again!!! Propane is a powerful and explosive mat=
=3D
erial and if used improperly will without doubt cause life threatening inju=
=3D
ry or death.
This is a no win because no matter how hard we work to educate for good=3D2=
C =3D
someone somewhere will take that information and turn it to harmful purpose=
=3D
. And if we chose not to educate the consequences are still the same.....=
=3D
...fools will rise to the level of their ignorance and faulty reasoning. Y=
=3D
ou're right Vince what the hell was I thinking? Still..... this post was a=
=3D
labor of love!!!!
=3D20
Sleep well=3D2C live and love intensely!!!
*************************************
Re: Propane in winter/Dopes!!!
Posted by: "Vince Pitelka" vpitelka@DTCCOM.NET=3D20
Date: Wed Dec 15=3D2C 2010 4:12 pm ((PST))
I would like to offer what I hope will be seen as a bit of clarity=3D2C fro=
m =3D
the
standpoint of someone with 40 years of experience in ceramics=3D2C
kiln-building=3D2C welding/fabrication=3D2C burner systems=3D2C etc. I want=
to sa=3D
y
categorically that it is NEVER=3D2C EVER okay to heat up a propane tank wit=
h =3D
a
gas burner or gas torch in any studio ceramics situation. I appreciate
David's good intentions=3D2C but he should have known better than to even
mention this on Clayart=3D2C because there is no guarantee that other peopl=
e =3D
are
going to approach this incredibly dangerous situation with experience or
even common sense. David=3D2C are you willing to accept responsibility for
that? What could you have been thinking?
Again=3D2C no-how=3D2C no-way=3D2C is it EVER appropriate to heat a propane=
tank =3D
with a
gas burner! Don't even think about it!
=3D20
=3D
KATHI LESUEUR on sun 19 dec 10
On Dec 18, 2010, at 10:31 PM, David Woof wrote:
> Hi Vince and everyone,......I agree, Propane is a powerful and =3D
explosive material and if used improperly will without doubt cause =3D
serious life threatening injury or fatality.
> I too realize that this thread is a no win because no matter how hard =3D
we work to educate for good, someone somewhere will take that =3D
information and turn it to harmful purpose. And if we chose not to =3D
educate, the consequences are still the same........fools will rise to =3D
the level of their ignorance and faulty reasoning. You're right Vince, =3D
what the hell was I thinking? Still..... my posts were a labor of love =3D
for my fellow firers of clay.
I've been watching this thread for some time now and wondering why =3D
propane users didn't do the obvious. If you want to know the safest way =3D
to keep the gas from freezing up on your tanks ask the company you buy =3D
it from. In 1983 south Texas had a freeze for 28 hours below 32 degrees. =
=3D
All the nurseries had the same problem. We were pumping gas so fast to =3D
heat the greenhouses that the tanks were freezing. At one of our =3D
facilities we were pumping it so fast that the company brought the truck =
=3D
over and hooked it directly to our heaters. I won't tell you how they =3D
kept it from freezing. I won't give advice on something I'm not well =3D
versed on. Ask the company. They are the experts.
KATHI LESUEUR
http://www.lesueurclaywork.com
>=3D20
>=3D20
Dale Neese on sun 19 dec 10
We've got appreciate David's search for fact and truth when it comes to
applying heat to cold propane tanks in winter and his desire to educate us
with his and Lee's researched factual knowledge on the properties of
propane. Reading David's lengthy statement is a kin to reading a four page
artist statement in need to validate one's own argument that the rest of us
are some less knowledgeable.
Fact: "the common catalyst for causing a propane cylinder explosion is fire
and extreme heat." Fact: "The potential danger is generally introduced by
irresponsible behavior and/or human error."
If anyone reading on this list happens to be around someone applying
irresponsible behavior to a propane tank in any pottery firing situation I
suggest you excuse yourself from the area immediately.
Dale Tex
"across the alley from the Alamo"
Helotes, Texas USA
www.daleneese.com
__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature=
database 5715 (20101219) __________
The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
http://www.eset.com
Lee Love on sun 19 dec 10
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 9:08 AM, Dale Neese wrote:
> If anyone reading on this list happens to be around someone applying
> irresponsible behavior to a propane tank in any pottery firing situation =
=3D
I
> suggest you excuse yourself from the area immediately.
We should all write in and get Myth Busters to test propane tanks on.
I bet, if we wrote and explained this discussion amongst potters,
they'd be more than happy to do it! Maybe we need some a more
radical request, like car wrecks with propane tanks or shooting at
them.
Email: mythbusters@m5industries.com
Myth requests can be made at their message board:
http://community.discovery.com/eve/forums/a/cfrm/f/2991937776
--
=3DA0Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
David Woof on sun 19 dec 10
Hi Kathy=3D2C glad to see you on board and thinking!!! Thanks for sharein=
g =3D
your experience.
yes yes do ask the experts!!! This has been my point said in several ways!=
=3D
!!
=3D20
But one also must ask the right questions and be willing to sift thru the a=
=3D
nswers in the glare of proven physics=3D2C so if one is not willing to go t=
o =3D
these lengths for knowledge=3D2C or unable to wrap their brain around some =
ba=3D
sic physics or read whole sentences then it is all moot and becomes so like=
=3D
the question James asks=3D3B "why do they have No Smoking signs at the pro=
pa=3D
ne fill station?" This is a good basic question and if one is completely s=
=3D
atisfyed with the basic answer=3D3B "Because it's dangerous you Dork and yo=
u =3D
may get blown all the way to hell" then one should not even be in this curr=
=3D
ent conversation!!! For this person there is no need to question further.=
=3D
He/she is safe in this answer and will let someone else fill the tank an=
=3D
d rig it up!!! All good if they can read signs and run like hell should ne=
=3D
ed arise. Better not to have to try to outrun a fire ball which is why I a=
=3D
ssert again=3D3B accurate knowledge applied is far safer than reading no sm=
ok=3D
ing signs.
=3D20
On the other hand=3D2C I did consult the experts and read the texts and man=
ua=3D
ls when=3D2C as a young man=3D2C I fabricated and installed automated log h=
andl=3D
ing systems for lumber mills.
I layed out and installed the industrial wireing and supply piping for the =
=3D
pumps and motors=3D3B air=3D2C water=3D2C electric=3D2C hydrolic and propan=
e lines=3D
=3D2C and installed gas fired boilers for steam heated lumber drying kilns.=
=3D
I consulted and worked with engineers=3D2C industrial electritions....The G=
as=3D
People.....who ever it was necessary to bring in to get the job done right=
=3D
. And I asked the questions and got the answers. Concious and concened t=
=3D
hat lives were at stake every step of the way. ***
=3D20
With my art I play=3D2C take chances=3D2C see what will happen if...and in =
that=3D
spirit sometimes write tongue in cheek. I am having fun and it matters no=
=3D
t that some emotionaly and intelectually constipated humorless folks take p=
=3D
osition/title and themselves wayyy too seriously on a superficial level. =
=3D20
However with technical concerns on Clayart=3D2C in my studio=3D2C in the cl=
assr=3D
oom=3D2C in my life and those in my care=3D3B I don't bullshit=3D2C and if=
I can=3D
't add to the discussion in a constructive and factual way I keep my mouth =
=3D
shut.(and fingers off the keyboard)
=3D20
David Woof.... *** incidently=3D3B the APGreen #1's that came out of the =
wo=3D
od fired boilers we were replacing in 1978 wound up in my kiln yard at $0.1=
=3D
0 US apiece and have cycled thru several woof (typo?) fired kilns since=3D2=
C =3D
and the last 3000+ were hauled 31 hours in the back of a Ryder type truck t=
=3D
o find homes in the Cat salt kiln here in the wood fire land of AZ. Cl=3D=
3B=3D
arkdale!!! we have it going on down here.
********************************************
=3D20
1b. Re: Propane in winter/Dopes!!!
Posted by: "KATHI LESUEUR" kathi@LESUEURCLAYWORK.COM=3D20
Date: Sun Dec 19=3D2C 2010 5:38 am ((PST))
On Dec 18=3D2C 2010=3D2C at 10:31 PM=3D2C David Woof wrote:
> Hi Vince and everyone=3D2C......I agree=3D2C Propane is a powerful and ex=
plos=3D
ive material and if used improperly will without doubt cause serious life t=
=3D
hreatening injury or fatality.
> I too realize that this thread is a no win because no matter how hard we =
=3D
work to educate for good=3D2C someone somewhere will take that information =
an=3D
d turn it to harmful purpose. And if we chose not to educate=3D2C the conse=
qu=3D
ences are still the same........fools will rise to the level of their ignor=
=3D
ance and faulty reasoning. You're right Vince=3D2C what the hell was I thin=
ki=3D
ng? Still..... my posts were a labor of love for my fellow firers of clay.
I've been watching this thread for some time now and wondering why propane =
=3D
users didn't do the obvious. If you want to know the safest way to keep the=
=3D
gas from freezing up on your tanks ask the company you buy it from. In 198=
=3D
3 south Texas had a freeze for 28 hours below 32 degrees. All the nurseries=
=3D
had the same problem. We were pumping gas so fast to heat the greenhouses =
=3D
that the tanks were freezing. At one of our facilities we were pumping it s=
=3D
o fast that the company brought the truck over and hooked it directly to ou=
=3D
r heaters. I won't tell you how they kept it from freezing. I won't give ad=
=3D
vice on something I'm not well versed on. Ask the company. They are the exp=
=3D
erts.
KATHI LESUEUR
http://www.lesueurclaywork.com
>=3D20
>=3D20
=3D20
=3D
David Woof on sun 19 dec 10
Hi Dale=3D2C
now there's some fightin words padnah=3D2C better duck back inside the Alam=
o =3D
or warm up those barrels!!!=3D20
=3D20
Do you imagine that this is a "me" against the "rest" (all) of you exercise=
=3D
? Not so in my mind!!! I don't need to attack or talk down to anyone. =
=3D
Who is the "us" you speak of anyway? Who are these people? =3D20
=3D20
Do you suggest that "they" are my fellow and respected potters and colleagu=
=3D
es? Some of whom I have known and respected for years for the wealth of wi=
=3D
sdom and academic dedication they demonstrate and posses in many fields!!! =
=3D
Or are you just imagining yourself huddled safely in the confines of herd=
=3D
or gang mentality. There's enough of us! Yeaaa let's get woof??? well brin=
=3D
g it on sweetheart=3D2C I don't see folks lining up to join you. Sort of d=
ef=3D
ensive ole boy? =3D20
=3D20
Am I safe to assume that if you had anything of substance to share you woul=
=3D
d come forth with your contribution instead of taking an out of context sho=
=3D
t at my writing.=3D20
=3D20
So can we agree that on this subject you are most likely less knowledgeable=
=3D
=3D2C but that is ok=3D2C and that you are still probably a good and able p=
erso=3D
n deserving love and respect?
=3D20
I'll need to check with a therapist=3D2C attorney=3D2C spiritual leaders in=
the=3D
Vortex=3D2C Chiro/acupuncturist=3D2C herbologist=3D2C and my Scottish fr=
iend=3D
=3D2C Glen Livet PHD=3D2C to see if in fact my invitation to enter a seriou=
s co=3D
nversation really smacks of grandiosity or in anyway puts anyone down. =3D=
20
Misneach=3D2C
=3D20
David Woof........Mi sainted mum told me (she was always telling) that if I=
=3D
ever wondered if I had been insulted=3D3B I hadn't!!! But if a doubt lin=
ge=3D
red=3D2C to consider the source=3D2C and to always carry around a pocket fu=
ll o=3D
f compliments.
=3D20
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Propane in winter/Dopes!!!
Posted by: "Dale Neese" dneese@SATX.RR.COM=3D20
Date: Sun Dec 19=3D2C 2010 11:29 am ((PST))
Reading David's lengthy statement is a kin to reading a four page
artist statement in need to validate one's own argument that the rest of us
are some less knowledgeable.
=3D20
=3D20
=3D
Lis Allison on mon 20 dec 10
On December 19, 2010, you wrote:
> ..... like the question James asks; "why do they have No
> Smoking signs at the propane fill station?"
It's perfectly possible that the station had those signs to satisfy their
insurance. In some cases, perhaps most, insurance companies insist on
everything possible being done to avoid insurable 'events'. A sign to warn
the public may seem silly, but not having one would look like there was
something you hadn't done.
Here in cold north wilds of Canada, gas stations all have 'no smoking'
signs at the pumps.
Lis
--
Elisabeth Allison
Pine Ridge Studio
website: www.pine-ridge.ca
Pottery blog: www.studio-on-the-ridge.blogspot.com
Garden blog: www.garden-on-the-ridge.blogspot.com
James Freeman on mon 20 dec 10
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Dale Neese wrote:
>>>> Propane/butane tanks do not explode if strongly heated, (?)
>>>> propane/butane tanks flare off through relief valves.
>
> http://www.ksat.com/news/5356774/detail.html
>
Mr. Woof wrote:
"But one also must ask the right questions and be willing to sift thru
the answers in the glare of proven physics, so if one is not willing
to go to these lengths for knowledge, or unable to wrap their brain
around some basic physics or read whole sentences then it is all moot
and becomes so like the question James asks; "why do they have No
Smoking signs at the propane fill station?" This is a good basic
question and if one is completely satisfyed with the basic answer;
"Because it's dangerous you Dork and you may get blown all the way to
hell" then one should not even be in this current conversation!!!"
Even though I am a simpleton unable to wrap my brain around basic
physics or to read whole sentences, I will share a bit of what I know.
Mr. Woof is partially correct. It is, indeed, very difficult to get a
propane cylinder to explode. He is also correct when he says, or at
least I think he said, that the propane inside the tank will not
combust and explode per se. He is absolutely incorrect in his
assertion that propane tanks cannot and do not explode. They
absolutely can and do, and the cause is almost always the same; a
chain reaction; a small fire causing a bigger fire which in turn
causes a BLEVE, or boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion. The
BLEVE in turn frees the
flammable propane from the now ruptured tank, and the fun escalates
from there. The single most common cause of a propane tank BLEVE is
direct flame impingement. While such catastrophic chain reactions are
somewhat rare, they do indeed occur, as in the news story kindly
linked by Mr. Neese, and there is simply no good reason to even take
that chance. Fear has nothing to do with it, and no, those signs at
the propane dealer are not there to scare you nor to placate lawyers
and insurance companies. A google search on BLEVE, or "BLEVE propane"
will provide you with ample reading material, assuming of course that
unlike me, you are able to read whole sentences.
The following is from Propane101, the website of the propane dealers
association:
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D
The term BLEVE is well known among firefighters and hazardous
materials response teams and does not solely refer to propane tanks. A
BLEVE occurs when the pressure in the tank exceeds that at which the
safety relief valve can safely vent the excess pressure into the
outside atmosphere.
Let's look at a simple example involving something we're all familiar
with, a plastic 3 liter soft drink bottle. The soft drink bottle has a
1/4" hole drilled in its side (about the same diameter as the cord on
your mouse). This hole functions as the safety relief valve. If you
were to blow air into the bottle through the top after unscrewing the
cap, the excess pressure in the bottle would be relieved through the
opening in the bottle's side causing no damage to the bottle. Now,
suppose you attached an air hose that screwed onto the bottle top
forming a tight seal and the air hose was supplied by a large air
compressor. Turning the air compressor on starts the flow of air into
the bottle which in turn creates more pressure than the small hole
(relief valve) in the side of the bottle can keep up with. The plastic
bottle starts to expand and eventually ruptures. The reason the bottle
ruptures is that the amount of increasing pressure inside the bottle
is far greater and exceeds that at which the small hole allows to
escape. The pressure in the bottle is increasing faster than it can
escape through the "relief valve".
A propane tank BLEVE will occur when the container is subject to
extreme heat, such as in a fire. While the tank is being heated, the
liquid propane inside is being heated causing it to expand. The safety
relief valve will open allowing pressure to vent to the outside
atmosphere. If the pressure inside the tank grows to a level exceeding
that at which the safety relief valve can expel it from the tank, the
propane tank may rupture. If flames or a source of ignition is
present, the propane will ignite resulting in an explosion. It's
important to know that a BLEVE will occur only if the conditions are
right, such as being subject to continuous flame impingement over a
period of time.
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D
...and this:
Like ASME propane tanks, LP Gas cylinders do not explode easily and
nor do they explode on their own. The requirements for a cylinder to
"explode" or experience failure is related to heat in the same manner
that heat affects the failure of an ASME propane tank
...and this:
A search on a video website for propane explosions will normally yield
numerous results. Most all of these videos share a common theme, the
propane cylinders are placed on a fire or source of extreme heat.
...and finally this:
An employee is walking by the cylinder cage smoking a cigarette and
leans down to inspect the hissing noise coming from the cylinder. The
cigarette ignites the propane resulting in a small fire that under
most circumstances would be considered manageable. However the
employee panics and runs inside to call the fire department instead of
using the available fire extinguisher to put the fire out. In the
meantime, the original fire from the bleeder valve is directly
impinging on the adjacent cylinders resulting in the opening of their
relief valves and subsequent igniting of the escaping propane gas. The
original fire has become the catalyst for a chain reaction of propane
cylinder fires. Some of the cylinders rupture due to direct flame
impingement, intense heat and over pressure.
One can even order propane cylinder BLEVE simulation software
(http://www.thermdyne.com/BISdemo.htm), with which one can play around
with all of the various ways in which propane cylinders can explode
(Note: Fire is a common culprit!).
I could go on and on, but the point has probably been made. Yes, it
is very hard to get a propane cylinder to explode, even when you do
something stupid, but propane cylinders can and do explode, and
almost always from direct flame impingement. Do what you wish, as it
is your life. For me, even though I cannot grasp basic physics nor
read whole sentences, the answer is plain.
All the best.
...James
James Freeman
"...outsider artists, caught in the bog of their own consciousness,
too preciously idiosyncratic to be taken seriously."
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice.=3DA0 I
should not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
Dannon Rhudy on mon 20 dec 10
James said:
<<<<<physics or to read whole sentences, I will share a bit of what I know.
Mr. Woof is partially correct. It is, indeed, very difficult to get a
propane cylinder to explode. .........
He is absolutely incorrect in his
assertion that propane tanks cannot and do not explode. They
absolutely can and do, and the cause is almost always the same; a
chain reaction; a small fire causing a bigger fire which in turn
causes a BLEVE, or boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion.>>>>>>>
So Mr. Woof is partly right: it is difficult to get a propane
cylinder to explode; and Mr. Freeman is also right: propane
cylinders can and do explode.
My position on this issue is: what can happen, will happen.
A tenant of chaos theory, and I have observed it to be true.
Do we understand the term "unintended consequences"? I won't personally
be building any fires under propane tanks, nor yet hanging about
where others are doing so. There seems to me to be better
solutions to the temporary inconvenience of a propane tank
freezing up. I have no wish to be a Darwin Awards winner, either,
so perhaps cowardice enters in somewhere.
Meanwhile, though arguments can and sometimes do go on
forever, this one ought to be about to reach an end.
Won't. Will too. Won't. Will too. Won't......
Merry Christmas, folks.
regards
Dannon Rhudy
David Woof on tue 21 dec 10
Hi James=3D2C ( this is my last post on this thread)
I knew I could count on you to go and google up some vital information to a=
=3D
dd to this discussion. I also saw that I would have to piss you off a bit t=
=3D
o get you to move on it. No long lasting mal feelings I hope. =3D20
=3D20
James as this thread gained momentum it morphed through at least 3 new subj=
=3D
ect lines so no doubt you missed some of what I and others said so I wish t=
=3D
o correct one glaring misstatement where you say: <"He (woof) is absolutely=
=3D
incorrect in his assertion that propane tanks cannot and do not explode.">=
=3D
James I did not ever say or suggest that!!! =3D20
=3D20
I won't go line by line with you quibbling over choices of words let's just=
=3D
move forward and cherish the hard won facts that have come fourth.=3D20
In all my posts I warned and advised of the real as well as potential dange=
=3D
rs of excessive fire or heat applied to a propane tank through ignorance or=
=3D
carelessness. And threw out the invitation for others to quit just asserti=
=3D
ng "it's unsafe" and prove or disprove why with physical fact. =3D20
=3D20
There are the sheep'ple=3D2C the majority=3D2C who will unquestioningly hee=
d th=3D
e warnings given without explanation. I was not writeing to that audience=
=3D
( they are safe in their bliss.) =3D20
=3D20
I was after the information for the education of the intrepid who may not h=
=3D
ave enough information to safely execute their bright satori and acting on =
=3D
that impulse execute themselves and others as well. I saw that at the me=
=3D
re suggestion of that particular tank freezing remedy=3D2C and the calling =
of=3D
the perpetrator a Dork=3D2C would set the uninformed free spirits and "dor=
ks=3D
" to attempt it. Their personalities do not heed warnings from authority. =
=3D
So I was impelled to speak up for education of all the free spirited "dorks=
=3D
" to facilitate an informed choice to not do it=3D2C or do it safely and wi=
th=3D
due respect and caution. =3D20
=3D20
Vince kindly suggested that while he felt that I shouldn't pursue it=3D2C I=
n=3D
o doubt had good intentions. Yes I did have good intentions! I always do!=
=3D
!! I care.
=3D20
Vince I know and respect you as one of the lucid voices of reason in this c=
=3D
amp.
=3D20
I tend to draw my sword and ride like a cossack=3D2C but I do so with delib=
er=3D
ate purpose and forethought.
=3D20
Hope we can all share a smile and a muddy hand shake and move on to the see=
=3D
ing/drawing thread. =3D20
=3D20
You all be well and keep your feet warm and your head cool.
=3D20
David Woof
****************************************
6.1. Re: Propane in winter/Dopes!!!
Posted by: "James Freeman" jamesfreemanstudio@GMAIL.COM=3D20
Date: Mon Dec 20=3D2C 2010 11:38 am ((PST)).
Mr. Woof is partially correct. It is=3D2C indeed=3D2C very difficult to get=
a
propane cylinder to explode. He is also correct when he says=3D2C or at
least I think he said=3D2C that the propane inside the tank will not
combust and explode per se. He is absolutely incorrect in his
assertion that propane tanks cannot and do not explode.=3D20
=3D20
=3D
Philip Poburka on tue 21 dec 10
I was out hiking one time... I was 11.
I usually made a little Camp Fire at a certain spot, which was my
destination spot.
On the way, I found a full, brand new Aerosol Can of Hairspray...so, I
brought it
along.
Once the little Camp Fire was going well, I tenderly set the Can of
Hairspray on it, and, stepped back a ways.
Well, after a while, the bottom of the Can was deflecting a little, outward=
,
making some small sounds, and...then..."Buh-WOOOM!!!
Really good Fireball, really good soft-concussion ( kinda like getting hit
hard with a big 'Pillow' ).
To which I said -
"Wow..."
Nice thing about growing up when I did, kids had a chance to learn things i=
n
practical ways, by doing, with no busybody adults messing things up.
My Eyebrows grew back just fine, and, the mild reddish 'Sun Tan' sorts look=
,
faded...
Love,
Phil
Lv
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dannon Rhudy"
> James said:
>
> <<<<<> physics or to read whole sentences, I will share a bit of what I know.
>
> Mr. Woof is partially correct. It is, indeed, very difficult to get a
> propane cylinder to explode. .........
> He is absolutely incorrect in his
> assertion that propane tanks cannot and do not explode. They
> absolutely can and do, and the cause is almost always the same; a
> chain reaction; a small fire causing a bigger fire which in turn
> causes a BLEVE, or boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion.>>>>>>>
>
> So Mr. Woof is partly right: it is difficult to get a propane
> cylinder to explode; and Mr. Freeman is also right: propane
> cylinders can and do explode.
>
> My position on this issue is: what can happen, will happen.
> A tenant of chaos theory, and I have observed it to be true.
> Do we understand the term "unintended consequences"? I won't personally
> be building any fires under propane tanks, nor yet hanging about
> where others are doing so. There seems to me to be better
> solutions to the temporary inconvenience of a propane tank
> freezing up. I have no wish to be a Darwin Awards winner, either,
> so perhaps cowardice enters in somewhere.
>
> Meanwhile, though arguments can and sometimes do go on
> forever, this one ought to be about to reach an end.
> Won't. Will too. Won't. Will too. Won't......
>
> Merry Christmas, folks.
>
> regards
>
> Dannon Rhudy
Lee Love on tue 21 dec 10
On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 6:51 AM, Philip Poburka wrote:
> Nice thing about growing up when I did, kids had a chance to learn things=
=3D
in
> practical ways, by doing, with no busybody adults messing things up.
Me too. Kids today, would get arrested for the devices we made in
the lab and garage.
> My Eyebrows grew back just fine, and, the mild reddish 'Sun Tan' sorts lo=
=3D
ok,
> faded...
A friend, who Dennis, was not as careful as me & John (we
were known as the neighborhood "Mad Scientists") He burned of his
eyebrows and eyelashes and the front of his hair lighting one of his
devices by putting matches down the hole in the lid. He was lucky,
because it just shot flames out the top instead of going *BOOM*.
We also watched Dennis get shot in his garage. once. He found a
.30-06 shell in his father's dresser. He put it on the bench and
then shot a BB gun at the primer end. The shell went off and Dennis
fell to the ground, holding the inside of his thigh. He'd been shot!
But we notice the brass casing at his side. He was hit by the
casing and not the lead bullet. The lead is heavy and the lighter
casing is what is propelled when the bullet is not in the chamber. He
only had a bruise. I recently watched a Mythbuster program where
unchambered rounds were put in fires. I knew what would be flying
from Dennis's experiments. A "normal" kid, would have gave up the
experimenting, but Dennis's next .30-06 rounds were held secure in a
bench vise. Last I hear of Dennis, he was in the Marines and in
Vietnam. Hope he survived....
--
=3DA0Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
John Britt on tue 21 dec 10
Phil wrote:
"Nice thing about growing up when I did, kids had a chance to learn thing=
=3D
s in
practical ways, by doing, with no busybody adults messing things up.
My Eyebrows grew back just fine, and, the mild reddish 'Sun Tan' sorts lo=
=3D
ok,
faded..."
That reminds me a time, at age 11, that we took a can of hairspray and us=
=3D
ed it=3D20
to make a flame thrower to torch some poison ivy. (no mettlesome adults=3D2=
0=3D
around to warn us) My friend was allergic to poison ivy and breathed in =
=3D
the=3D20
fumes and got poison ivy in his lungs and throat and he died.
Some people's eyebrows don't grow back ....
And in light of the Christmas season, a quote from the "Christmas Story":=
=3D
=3D20=3D20
"You'll shout your eye out with that gun."
John Britt
www,johnbrittpottery.com
Philip Poburka on tue 21 dec 10
Hi John,
Ohhhh...sorry to hear that.
I was never bothered by Poison Ivy, I used to play in it, climbing through
Brush Tangles and so on. Did not even know what it looked like till someone
pointed it out in Horror.
I remember hearing stories of people using it in Camp Fires, or to roast
MarshMallows or Hot Dogs on, which of course, if true, was not so good.
There was a kid down the Street from me ( when I was a kid ) who died,
because his dad insisted he help in cleaning out an old, badly corroded
Commercial 40 Gallon or so Pressurized Pesticide Tank which once partially
re-filled and pressurized,
( maybe over-pressurized, ) split open, and a lot of the Pesticide
splattered on the kid, and, over a couple days, the effects killed him.
Another neighbor adult, killed himself accidentally, spraying for 'Bag
Worms'
on his Trees. The Breeze shifted, carrying the mist onto him, or onto
whatever parts of him were exposed, anyway. Could be his kid had been savvy
enough to split before Dad could insist he help?
I do not know what Pesticides they were using.
Another kid, some people my parents knew, parents gave him some Peanuts...h=
e
ate them, and, turns out was severely allergic...he died.
Another, in the Car with mom-n-dad, they got into a bad wreck, he died.
Another, parents took him to a doctor for some minor procedure, doctor
screwed up, he died.
So far, the odds of death by adult supervision, verses, unsupervised kids
doing things themselves,
would seem to be running about 5 to 1, or, would favor LIFE by avoiding
adult supervision, or, would suggest, 5 times more likelihood of death with
adult supervision, far as I can tell from my own
childhood memories.
I preferred to avoid 'adult supervision' myself.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Britt"
Phil wrote:
"Nice thing about growing up when I did, kids had a chance to learn things
in
practical ways, by doing, with no busybody adults messing things up.
My Eyebrows grew back just fine, and, the mild reddish 'Sun Tan' sorts look=
,
faded..."
That reminds me a time, at age 11, that we took a can of hairspray and used
it
to make a flame thrower to torch some poison ivy. (no mettlesome adults
around to warn us) My friend was allergic to poison ivy and breathed in th=
e
fumes and got poison ivy in his lungs and throat and he died.
Some people's eyebrows don't grow back ....
And in light of the Christmas season, a quote from the "Christmas Story":
"You'll shout your eye out with that gun."
John Britt
www,johnbrittpottery.com
Frank Colson on wed 22 dec 10
Olay! I'll jump into the propane tales, gig!
I have yet to read anything about the differences of propane "weight" and
natural gas! This little factor can be as dangerous as any
charateristic of these fuels. In case I missed it, it should be known that
propane fuel is heaver than air. Natural gas, not so!
Why care??? Well, one time while teaching at Penland, my assistant
designed a small propane melt furnace! The furnace had purposefully
a small hole in the bottom to allow overflow of melted metal.
One morning as I approached the the building in which he was crouched at th=
e
bottom of the furnace, attempting to ignite it from the top, while "heaver
than air" propane was pooling around hie feet, BOOM! And I mean a BIG
BOOM! I truned my head in his direction to
witness a human fireball running out the building!
The moral of the story, obviously, is "those who play with fire" better kno=
w
what they are doing!
Fortunately, the flaming body was superficial and onluy lasted a few
seconds. But it scared the living jesus out of him!
Frank Colson
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Woof"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 11:52 PM
Subject: Re: Propane in winter/Dopes!!!
Hi James, ( this is my last post on this thread)
I knew I could count on you to go and google up some vital information to
add to this discussion. I also saw that I would have to piss you off a bit
to get you to move on it. No long lasting mal feelings I hope.
James as this thread gained momentum it morphed through at least 3 new
subject lines so no doubt you missed some of what I and others said so I
wish to correct one glaring misstatement where you say: <"He (woof) is
absolutely incorrect in his assertion that propane tanks cannot and do not
explode."> James I did not ever say or suggest that!!!
I won't go line by line with you quibbling over choices of words let's just
move forward and cherish the hard won facts that have come fourth.
In all my posts I warned and advised of the real as well as potential
dangers of excessive fire or heat applied to a propane tank through
ignorance or carelessness. And threw out the invitation for others to quit
just asserting "it's unsafe" and prove or disprove why with physical fact.
There are the sheep'ple, the majority, who will unquestioningly heed the
warnings given without explanation. I was not writeing to that audience
( they are safe in their bliss.)
I was after the information for the education of the intrepid who may not
have enough information to safely execute their bright satori and acting on
that impulse execute themselves and others as well. I saw that at the
mere suggestion of that particular tank freezing remedy, and the calling of
the perpetrator a Dork, would set the uninformed free spirits and "dorks" t=
o
attempt it. Their personalities do not heed warnings from authority. So I
was impelled to speak up for education of all the free spirited "dorks" to
facilitate an informed choice to not do it, or do it safely and with due
respect and caution.
Vince kindly suggested that while he felt that I shouldn't pursue it, I no
doubt had good intentions. Yes I did have good intentions! I always do!!!
I care.
Vince I know and respect you as one of the lucid voices of reason in this
camp.
I tend to draw my sword and ride like a cossack, but I do so with deliberat=
e
purpose and forethought.
Hope we can all share a smile and a muddy hand shake and move on to the
seeing/drawing thread.
You all be well and keep your feet warm and your head cool.
David Woof
****************************************
6.1. Re: Propane in winter/Dopes!!!
Posted by: "James Freeman" jamesfreemanstudio@GMAIL.COM
Date: Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:38 am ((PST)).
Mr. Woof is partially correct. It is, indeed, very difficult to get a
propane cylinder to explode. He is also correct when he says, or at
least I think he said, that the propane inside the tank will not
combust and explode per se. He is absolutely incorrect in his
assertion that propane tanks cannot and do not explode.
=3D
Hank Murrow on wed 22 dec 10
For What It's Worth.....
The glass and ceramics ares at Penland now have troughs in the floors to =
=3D
catch any spilled propane and direct it out from the buildings and away =3D
from any flame source.
Cheers, Hank in Eugene
On Dec 22, 2010, at 8:18 AM, Frank Colson wrote:
> Olay! I'll jump into the propane tales, gig!
>=3D20
> I have yet to read anything about the differences of propane "weight" =3D
and
> natural gas! This little factor can be as dangerous as any
> charateristic of these fuels. In case I missed it, it should be known =
=3D
that
> propane fuel is heaver than air. Natural gas, not so!
>=3D20
> Why care??? Well, one time while teaching at Penland, my assistant
> designed a small propane melt furnace! The furnace had purposefully
> a small hole in the bottom to allow overflow of melted metal.
>=3D20
> One morning as I approached the the building in which he was crouched =3D
at the
> bottom of the furnace, attempting to ignite it from the top, while =3D
"heaver
> than air" propane was pooling around hie feet, BOOM! And I mean a =3D
BIG
> BOOM! I truned my head in his direction to
> witness a human fireball running out the building!
>=3D20
> The moral of the story, obviously, is "those who play with fire" =3D
better know
> what they are doing!
>=3D20
> Fortunately, the flaming body was superficial and onluy lasted a few
> seconds. But it scared the living jesus out of him!
>=3D20
> Frank Colson
>=3D20
>=3D20
>=3D20
>=3D20
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Woof"
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 11:52 PM
> Subject: Re: Propane in winter/Dopes!!!
>=3D20
>=3D20
> Hi James, ( this is my last post on this thread)
> I knew I could count on you to go and google up some vital information =
=3D
to
> add to this discussion. I also saw that I would have to piss you off a =
=3D
bit
> to get you to move on it. No long lasting mal feelings I hope.
>=3D20
> James as this thread gained momentum it morphed through at least 3 new
> subject lines so no doubt you missed some of what I and others said so =
=3D
I
> wish to correct one glaring misstatement where you say: <"He (woof) is
> absolutely incorrect in his assertion that propane tanks cannot and do =
=3D
not
> explode."> James I did not ever say or suggest that!!!
>=3D20
> I won't go line by line with you quibbling over choices of words let's =
=3D
just
> move forward and cherish the hard won facts that have come fourth.
>=3D20
> In all my posts I warned and advised of the real as well as potential
> dangers of excessive fire or heat applied to a propane tank through
> ignorance or carelessness. And threw out the invitation for others to =3D
quit
> just asserting "it's unsafe" and prove or disprove why with physical =3D
fact.
>=3D20
> There are the sheep'ple, the majority, who will unquestioningly heed =3D
the
> warnings given without explanation. I was not writeing to that =3D
audience
> ( they are safe in their bliss.)
>=3D20
> I was after the information for the education of the intrepid who may =3D
not
> have enough information to safely execute their bright satori and =3D
acting on
> that impulse execute themselves and others as well. I saw that at =3D
the
> mere suggestion of that particular tank freezing remedy, and the =3D
calling of
> the perpetrator a Dork, would set the uninformed free spirits and =3D
"dorks" to
> attempt it. Their personalities do not heed warnings from authority. =3D
So I
> was impelled to speak up for education of all the free spirited =3D
"dorks" to
> facilitate an informed choice to not do it, or do it safely and with =3D
due
> respect and caution.
>=3D20
> Vince kindly suggested that while he felt that I shouldn't pursue it, =3D
I no
> doubt had good intentions. Yes I did have good intentions! I always =3D
do!!!
> I care.
>=3D20
> Vince I know and respect you as one of the lucid voices of reason in =3D
this
> camp.
>=3D20
> I tend to draw my sword and ride like a cossack, but I do so with =3D
deliberate
> purpose and forethought.
>=3D20
> Hope we can all share a smile and a muddy hand shake and move on to =3D
the
> seeing/drawing thread.
>=3D20
> You all be well and keep your feet warm and your head cool.
>=3D20
> David Woof
> ****************************************
> 6.1. Re: Propane in winter/Dopes!!!
> Posted by: "James Freeman" jamesfreemanstudio@GMAIL.COM
> Date: Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:38 am ((PST)).
>=3D20
> Mr. Woof is partially correct. It is, indeed, very difficult to get a
> propane cylinder to explode. He is also correct when he says, or at
> least I think he said, that the propane inside the tank will not
> combust and explode per se. He is absolutely incorrect in his
> assertion that propane tanks cannot and do not explode.
>=3D20
>=3D20
>=3D20
>=3D20
>=3D20
>=3D20
> =3D3D
| |
|
