Monica Wright on thu 6 jan 11
Turning in request to my district office for 3 new kilns tomorrow.
=3DA0
Skutt km1227-3
=3DA0
or
=3DA0
L&L e28T-3 easy fire
=3DA0
basically comes down to ease of the controls.=3DA0 Have used skutt controls=
b=3D
efore.=3DA0 pretty straight forward.=3DA0 How does L&L control panel compar=
e?=3D
=3DA0 I like L&L because they seem more heavy duty, not that the skutts are=
b=3D
ad in any way though.
=3DA0
I know I will get 2 of the kilns, hope to get all 3.=3DA0 Thanks in advance=
.
William & Susan Schran User on fri 7 jan 11
On 1/6/11 10:56 PM, "Monica Wright" wrote:
> Skutt km1227-3 or L&L e28T-3 easy fire =3DA0
> basically comes down to ease of the controls.=3DA0 Have used skutt contro=
ls
> before.=3DA0 pretty straight forward.=3DA0 How does L&L control panel com=
pare?=3DA0 I=3D
like
> L&L because they seem more heavy duty, not that the skutts are bad in any=
=3D
way
> though.
Both are well made kilns and will provide years of service.
If price is primary consideration, the Skutt will probably cost less.
If you are going to be a heavy user, then L&L because replacing elements is
so much easier.
Both use Bartlett controllers.
Just remember, the only information you are feeding the controller is how
fast the heating/cooling ramp is, to what temperature each ramp segment is
and if there is a hold on the segment - that's it!
The interface on Skutt and L&L are slightly different.
I am biased towards L&L and have been using their kilns for many years.
The quality of their kilns have improved greatly over the years.
I have a e23s in my studio that I use for crystalline glazes.
I have just completed firing number 60, with no change in set firing speed.
The Easy Fire option is great for bisque firings. The auto program is set t=
=3D
o
Orton's recommended firing schedule.
Can't go wrong with either, but you might want to consider Paragon kilns
also. They also have a very fine product.
Bill
--=3D20
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
C Sullivan on fri 7 jan 11
Hi Monica
I have a Skutt and am pleased as punch with it! It does exactly what it's
spoze to do. After years of fighting with my original,
straight-from-the-factory, Paragon kiln which never performed well, would
barely reach cone 5 (and that only with constant coaxing), and was one of
the more frustrating experiences in life, it's such a joy to have the
Skutt. The local arts council has a Skutt, they run it constantly, and the
kiln stands up under that kind of pressure.
My friend has an L&L and she is very pleased with hers. She went the L&L
way because, evidently, the elements are easier to change out than the
Skutt.
So both have braggable points and i'm sure you will be please with either o=
f
these two kiln types.
Chae
On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 5:31 AM, William & Susan Schran User t
> wrote:
> On 1/6/11 10:56 PM, "Monica Wright" wrote:
>
> > Skutt km1227-3 or L&L e28T-3 easy fire
> > basically comes down to ease of the controls. Have used skutt controls
> > before. pretty straight forward. How does L&L control panel compare? =
I
> like
> > L&L because they seem more heavy duty, not that the skutts are bad in a=
ny
> way
> > though.
>
> Both are well made kilns and will provide years of service.
> If price is primary consideration, the Skutt will probably cost less.
> If you are going to be a heavy user, then L&L because replacing elements =
is
> so much easier.
> Both use Bartlett controllers.
> Just remember, the only information you are feeding the controller is how
> fast the heating/cooling ramp is, to what temperature each ramp segment i=
s
> and if there is a hold on the segment - that's it!
> The interface on Skutt and L&L are slightly different.
>
> I am biased towards L&L and have been using their kilns for many years.
> The quality of their kilns have improved greatly over the years.
> I have a e23s in my studio that I use for crystalline glazes.
> I have just completed firing number 60, with no change in set firing spee=
d.
>
> The Easy Fire option is great for bisque firings. The auto program is set
> to
> Orton's recommended firing schedule.
>
> Can't go wrong with either, but you might want to consider Paragon kilns
> also. They also have a very fine product.
>
> Bill
>
> --
> William "Bill" Schran
> wschran@cox.net
> wschran@nvcc.edu
> http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
>
Vince Pitelka on fri 7 jan 11
Monica Wright wrote:
Turning in request to my district office for 3 new kilns tomorrow. Skutt
km1227-3 or L&L e28T-3 easy fire. Basically comes down to ease of the
controls.=3DA0 Have used skutt controls before.=3DA0 pretty straight =3D
forward.=3DA0 How
does L&L control panel compare?=3DA0 I like L&L because they seem more =3D
heavy
duty, not that the skutts are bad in any way though. I know I will get 2 =
=3D
of
the kilns, hope to get all 3.=3DA0 Thanks in advance.
Monica -=3D20
Skutt makes a very good kiln, but for institutional use I prefer the =3D
L&L.
We have three e24t toploaders and several other L&Ls, and I would not =3D
buy
anything else. They have given us excellent service under very hard
institutional use. One thing I would say about all of these toploader =3D
kilns
is that none of them will perform long-term doing high-firing, but I =3D
don't
expect that is your plan. For low-fire and mid-range, they work great. =
=3D
One of the best things about the L&L is the refractory element holders =3D
inset
into the brick. The elements last longer, you never have problems with
sagging elements, you never have to use pins to anchor the elements in =3D
the
brick, and changing elements is a breeze when it finally does become
necessary.
I believe that the control panel is just the same as the Skutt. It is =3D
very
easy to use.=3D20
Before the e23t, we had a bunch of the older kiln-sitter L&Ls. For =3D
reasons
I do not fully understand, we replace elements far less frequently on =3D
the
newer programmable kilns, and hardly ever encounter any maintenance =3D
problems
with wiring or relays. There is so much less maintenance and repair =3D
with
the e23 Easy-Fire kilns. They are very well-built, and L&L is a =3D
responsive
company with excellent customer service.
I hope this is helpful.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu=3D20
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
=3D20
Patty on fri 7 jan 11
I've fired the skutt in art centers and have the L&L at home. Not sure
there is really any difference between the control panels or their
programming. I do love my L&L it survived a move from New Jersey to Hawaii
and keeps on ticking. I've a small chip of brick missing but it didn't
affect the element channels.
Patty Kaliher
Sandy miller on fri 7 jan 11
Have had both and a Cress
my next kiln will be a kiln built by Frank Tucker!
I love my DaVinci L&L when I'm changing elements but for energy efficiency
and overall build
I'm headed to Tucker.
Good luck with whatever you choose.
Sandy Miller
www.sandymillerpottery.com
On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 12:12 PM, C Sullivan wrote:
> Hi Monica
> I have a Skutt and am pleased as punch with it! It does exactly what it'=
s
> spoze to do. After years of fighting with my original,
> straight-from-the-factory, Paragon kiln which never performed well, would
> barely reach cone 5 (and that only with constant coaxing), and was one of
> the more frustrating experiences in life, it's such a joy to have the
> Skutt. The local arts council has a Skutt, they run it constantly, and t=
he
> kiln stands up under that kind of pressure.
> My friend has an L&L and she is very pleased with hers. She went the L&L
> way because, evidently, the elements are easier to change out than the
> Skutt.
> So both have braggable points and i'm sure you will be please with either
> of
> these two kiln types.
> Chae
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 5:31 AM, William & Susan Schran User <
> wschran@cox.net
> > wrote:
>
> > On 1/6/11 10:56 PM, "Monica Wright" wrote:
> >
> > > Skutt km1227-3 or L&L e28T-3 easy fire
> > > basically comes down to ease of the controls. Have used skutt contro=
ls
> > > before. pretty straight forward. How does L&L control panel compare=
?
> I
> > like
> > > L&L because they seem more heavy duty, not that the skutts are bad in
> any
> > way
> > > though.
> >
> > Both are well made kilns and will provide years of service.
> > If price is primary consideration, the Skutt will probably cost less.
> > If you are going to be a heavy user, then L&L because replacing element=
s
> is
> > so much easier.
> > Both use Bartlett controllers.
> > Just remember, the only information you are feeding the controller is h=
ow
> > fast the heating/cooling ramp is, to what temperature each ramp segment
> is
> > and if there is a hold on the segment - that's it!
> > The interface on Skutt and L&L are slightly different.
> >
> > I am biased towards L&L and have been using their kilns for many years.
> > The quality of their kilns have improved greatly over the years.
> > I have a e23s in my studio that I use for crystalline glazes.
> > I have just completed firing number 60, with no change in set firing
> speed.
> >
> > The Easy Fire option is great for bisque firings. The auto program is s=
et
> > to
> > Orton's recommended firing schedule.
> >
> > Can't go wrong with either, but you might want to consider Paragon kiln=
s
> > also. They also have a very fine product.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > --
> > William "Bill" Schran
> > wschran@cox.net
> > wschran@nvcc.edu
> > http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
> >
>
Fred Parker on sat 8 jan 11
Monica:
The controllers are essentially the same on both. Before I got my e23t I=
=3D
first used (borrowed) a Skutt 27" counterpart and, operationally, found n=
=3D
o
difference there. Later, I inherited a burned-out Skutt 23" kiln setter
kiln, which I fired for a couple of years. The big difference I see is
L&L's hard element channels which really do protect the element chann=3D
els
from chipping when loading and unloading. The interior of my L&L loo=3D
ks
about the same as it did the day I unpacked it. The larger Skutt I used =
=3D
for
a couple of years had done commercial service in a "paint-a-pot" shop
somewhere before my friend bought it. Its interior was fairly rough --
especially around the element channels where unavoidable shelf hits chipp=
=3D
ed
and ground them down over the years. The smaller Skutt -- retired from a=
=3D
classroom -- looked as if a hand grenade had exploded inside but it still=
=3D
managed to fire very well for the time I used it.
I have not had to replace elements in any kiln, but I did have to go into=
=3D
my
controller once or twice when my L&L was new. I was impressed by its=3D
simplicity -- consistent with L&L's theme of designing to facilitate =3D
repairs
by potters. Everything was easily accessible, without the use of
impossible-to-find connectors/terminals, etc.
Both Skutt and L&L are excellent kilns, but if I were buying for a sc=3D
hool I
would go with the L&L.
Fred Parker
On Thu, 6 Jan 2011 19:56:33 -0800, Monica Wright =3D
>
wrote:
>Turning in request to my district office for 3 new kilns tomorrow.
>=3DA0
>Skutt km1227-3
>=3DA0
>or
>=3DA0
>L&L e28T-3 easy fire
>=3DA0
SNIP
Susan Fox Hirschmann on sat 8 jan 11
Amen to excellent customer support with L&L's. Whenever there is a problem,=
=3D
or =3D0Aissue, Rob in CA is always a willing ear, giving valuable support.=
=3D
=3D0AI love my L&L and would highly recommend it!=3D0ASusan=3D0Asusan fox h=
irschm=3D
ann=3D0Awww.potteryart.biz=3D0A=3D0A=3DA0=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A______________=
________________=3D
__=3D0AFrom: Vince Pitelka =3D0ATo: Clayart@LSV.CERAMI=
CS.O=3D
RG=3D0ASent: Fri, January 7, 2011 2:19:04 PM=3D0ASubject: Re: L&L or Skutt?=
??=3D
=3D0A=3D0AMonica Wright wrote:=3D0ATurning in request to my district office=
for 3=3D
new kilns tomorrow. Skutt=3D0Akm1227-3 or L&L e28T-3 easy fire.=3DA0 Basic=
ally=3D
comes down to ease of the=3D0Acontrols.=3DA0 Have used skutt controls befo=
re.=3D
=3DA0 pretty straight forward.=3DA0 How=3D0Adoes L&L control panel compare?=
=3DA0 I =3D
like L&L because they seem more heavy=3D0Aduty, not that the skutts are bad=
i=3D
n any way though. I know I will get 2 of=3D0Athe kilns, hope to get all 3.=
=3DA0=3D
Thanks in advance.=3D0A=3D0AMonica - =3D0ASkutt makes a very good kiln, bu=
t for =3D
institutional use I prefer the L&L.=3D0AWe have three e24t toploaders and s=
ev=3D
eral other L&Ls, and I would not buy=3D0Aanything else.=3DA0 They have give=
n us=3D
excellent service under very hard=3D0Ainstitutional use.=3DA0 One thing I =
woul=3D
d say about all of these toploader kilns=3D0Ais that none of them will perf=
or=3D
m long-term doing high-firing, but I don't=3D0Aexpect that is your plan.=3D=
A0 F=3D
or low-fire and mid-range, they work great.=3DA0 =3D0A=3D0AOne of the best =
things=3D
about the L&L is the refractory element holders inset=3D0Ainto the brick.=
=3DA0=3D
The elements last longer, you never have problems with=3D0Asagging element=
s,=3D
you never have to use pins to anchor the elements in the=3D0Abrick, and ch=
an=3D
ging elements is a breeze when it finally does become=3D0Anecessary.=3D0A=
=3D0AI b=3D
elieve that the control panel is just the same as the Skutt.=3DA0 It is ver=
y=3D
=3D0Aeasy to use. =3D0A=3D0ABefore the e23t, we had a bunch of the older ki=
ln-sit=3D
ter L&Ls.=3DA0 For reasons=3D0AI do not fully understand, we replace elemen=
ts f=3D
ar less frequently on the=3D0Anewer programmable kilns, and hardly ever enc=
ou=3D
nter any maintenance problems=3D0Awith wiring or relays.=3DA0 There is so m=
uch =3D
less maintenance and repair with=3D0Athe e23 Easy-Fire kilns.=3DA0 They are=
ver=3D
y well-built, and L&L is a responsive=3D0Acompany with excellent customer s=
er=3D
vice.=3D0A=3D0AI hope this is helpful.=3D0A- Vince=3D0A=3D0AVince Pitelka=
=3D0AAppalachi=3D
an Center for Craft=3D0ATennessee Tech University=3D0Avpitelka@dtccom.net; =
wpit=3D
elka@tntech.edu =3D0Ahttp://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A
Alice DeLisle on sun 9 jan 11
Another positive feature of the L&L is that the thermocouple has a ceramic =
cover
on it for protection. When I was kiln shopping a couple of years ago the o=
ther
brands did not. I don't know about the current status.
Alice DeLisle
wanderland@att.net
http://www.etsy.com/shop/IslandTextures
Bonnie Staffel on sun 9 jan 11
Hi Fred,
I too am a fan and current user of an L&L. I have used both and they are
fine kilns. However, the inserts for the elements was one selling point =3D
for
me as well as the square DaVinci models. You can't beat a square shaped =3D
kiln
for production IMO. Now I am having trouble filling it with my current
production efforts, which are very low indeed. But at this time of my =3D
life,
do not need to purchase a new smaller kiln. The next big pots beckon me =3D
and
I will need the room to load them into the kiln. Now to get to the =3D
studio.
Bonnie
http://webpages.charter.net/bstaffel/
http://vasefinder.com/bstaffelgallery1.html
DVD=3DA0 Throwing with Coils and Slabs
DVD=3DA0 Introduction to Wheel Work
Charter Member Potters Council
Sawmill Pottery on sun 9 jan 11
I have been in business for 7 years. I am a full time studio potter, as we=
ll as
a community studio and gallery owner. I own 3 kilns (one Skutt and two L&L=
s),
and I teach an average of 30 students per term. Many of these students hav=
e now
gone on to sell their work professionally or set up personal studios at hom=
e.
They always come to me for advice on what equipment to buy. Before this y=
ear,
I always promoted L&L. I know for sure of at least 6 students who've bough=
t L&L
kilns because of my advice. No longer.
The short, less gory version of my horror story with L&L is that a year ago=
, I
was sold a kiln with a malfunctioning Dynatrol board. This was very clear,=
as I
had non-stop problems for 6 months that never were corrected until L&L fina=
lly
replaced the board. (Before they looked at the board, they had me replace =
every
other working part of the kiln.) This problem cost me unreasonable amounts=
of
time and money. It caused me incredible aggravation, frustrated my student=
s,
and ruined many, many pots.
When I brought this to Steven Lewicki's attention, hoping for a little
compensation for my lost revenue as well as the money that I had unnecessar=
ily
spent on replacement parts, I was brushed aside. He sent me the company
warranty policy. I completely understand the need for policies and warrant=
ies,
but this kiln COST me money, and it was their fault.
I am a business owner who prides myself on my reputation as well as my genu=
ine
concern for my customers and students. I have grown to support other busin=
esses
who value their customers, as I do. I believe that every customer, no matt=
er
how insignificant their purchase is to my bottom line, deserves a quality
product. I will stand behind my work. I can't say the same for L&L.
Dot Burnworth
Sawmill Pottery
Josh White on mon 10 jan 11
I have to put in a good word for Skutt kilns. I work in a demanding
production environment making tiles that need to look the same day in and
day out every year (a nearly impossible goal). We currently have 11 Skutt
KM1231PK kilns. We fire our kilns nearly every day. I appreciate Skutt's
customer service and technical support. If you have never changed elements
in a kiln than you can not possibly imagine all that can go wrong with them
when you put as many firings on a kiln in a year as we do. Our Skutt kilns
are dependable, easy to use and easy to understand. I deal with people fro=
m
all over the country in many different fields every day in my job. The
people at Skutt are always among my most favorite to work with. They are
professional and they really know their stuff. I can not say enough good
things about them and their kilns.
Josh White
Production Manager
Syzygy Inc.
Silver City, NM
www.syzygytile.com
Bonnie Staffel on mon 10 jan 11
When I purchased my DaVinci kiln back in the mid 1990s I used it for a =3D
while
and then the computer started to act up. I contacted L&L and I now =3D
forget
the timeline involved, but they sent me another board but I had to hire =3D
a
special electrician to hook it up. It has worked fine every since. I =3D
must
say, also, that I have all three safeguards, the witness cones, the Kiln
Sitter and the computerized mechanics.=3D20
Sorry you had a bad experience, but maybe what you put in, you get out. =3D
In
my dealings with L&L I have always been helped with pleasant responses.
Bonnie
http://webpages.charter.net/bstaffel/
http://vasefinder.com/bstaffelgallery1.html
DVD=3DA0 Throwing with Coils and Slabs
DVD=3DA0 Introduction to Wheel Work
Charter Member Potters Council
Bonnie Staffel on mon 10 jan 11
I must have one of L&L dream kilns. I have a DaVinci 2425 or something =3D
like
that size. Anyway, if the controller should stop working they told me a =3D
neat
trick to operate the kiln manually. At the top of the switch box, the
sizeable yellow metal box separate from the kiln where the wires and all =
=3D
the
equipment to run the kiln is stored. At the top, where one plugs in the
computer, you can unplug it and make a U shaped lamp wire attachment and
plug each end into the slots of the electric prong place and that will
operate the kiln manually by using the increment switches on the yellow =3D
box
as well as the Kiln sitter and the witness cones. At the recent call =3D
that my
electrician came to take care of a minor problem, he made me a special =3D
loop
with nice clamped on ends instead of the frayed wires in the lamp cord =3D
that
I had on hand. I believe that I have used this device only once during =3D
my
ownership since 1996. =3D20
This is a very nice feature in case the computer should ever fail. So =3D
far
things have been working very well with everything. My only trouble now =3D
is
that my girls park their cars in the garage where my kiln is located. I =3D
had
them push it back to make room for one of the cars. It is a close call.
There are about three inches between her bumper and the kiln. Good thing =
=3D
I
don't fire often and may not fire until spring as it takes me a while to
amass enough pots to fill this huge monster.=3D20
Bonnie
http://webpages.charter.net/bstaffel/
http://vasefinder.com/bstaffelgallery1.html
DVD=3DA0 Throwing with Coils and Slabs
DVD=3DA0 Introduction to Wheel Work
Charter Member Potters Council
Bonnie Staffel on mon 10 jan 11
I forgot to say that my computer is on the wall, not attached to the =3D
kiln.
Keeps it cool.
Bonnie
http://webpages.charter.net/bstaffel/
http://vasefinder.com/bstaffelgallery1.html
DVD=3DA0 Throwing with Coils and Slabs
DVD=3DA0 Introduction to Wheel Work
Charter Member Potters Council
Vince Pitelka on mon 10 jan 11
Dot Burnworth of Sawmill Pottery wrote of her bad experience with a L&L
kiln.
Dot -
Of course we do not know all the details of your experience with L&L, but i=
t
was very unfortunate that you had a bad experience with one of their kilns.
I think it is important to point out that over the years the Clayart posts
and feedback about L&L kilns and their customer service have been
overwhelmingly positive. In my experience they are very responsive, and
always prompt in dealing with problems.
I have never known Stephen Lewicki (president of L&L) to brush anyone aside=
,
but if it seemed that way to you, it is probably because the manufacturer
would never held liable for your lost revenue in a situation like this,
especially when they had been working with you to fix the problem. That's
just not the way it works, and no matter how frustrating it might have been
for you, it isn't fair to L&L to complain on a public forum like Clayart
that they should have compensated you.
Also, saying "it was all their fault" betrays a level of bitterness that
does no one any good in this situation. Every manufacturer, no matter how
high the quality of their product, occasionally produces a defective item,
and sometimes it is very difficult to isolate the problem. I would say tha=
t
someone who is running a studio where they teach classes and produce potter=
y
on the level that you seem to be doing needs to always cover for the realit=
y
that one kiln could be out of service at any time. Having an extra kiln
on-hand is like money in the bank, and would have saved the grief you
experienced when the diagnosis and repair of your kiln took longer than
expected.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Arnold Howard on tue 11 jan 11
On 1/7/2011 11:12 AM, C Sullivan wrote:
After years of fighting with my original,
> straight-from-the-factory, Paragon kiln which never performed well, would
> barely reach cone 5 (and that only with constant coaxing), and was one of
> the more frustrating experiences in life, it's such a joy to have the
> Skutt.
Chae, I'm sorry your Xpress-1193 will not reach cone 6. I suspect it is
because of low voltage. A 120-volt kiln of that size will underfire
unless it has a full 120 volts under load.
Believe me, I take it to heart when a customer has a negative experience
with a Paragon. I like to think that a kiln is a joy to purchase and
that it will still be firing years from now.
Let me know if you need my assistance.
Sincerely,
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA
ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com
David Woof on thu 13 jan 11
Hi C. S=3D2C =3D20
I'm sure Howard nailed it=3D3B lower than the expected 120 volt delivery i=
s =3D
a real issue in residential electrical service. We are underpowered in the=
=3D
area where I live so each late afternoon=3D2C during the dinner cooking ti=
me=3D
in nearby "Patio Town"=3D2C my kilns and welders have fits because of the=
i=3D
ncreased voltage drain. My solution is to fire over night and if I need t=
=3D
o weld=3D2C I work mid AM thru about 3 PM=3D2C or after dinner. =3D20
I could raise a ruckus with APS and demand more power=3D3B but this is the=
l=3D
and of manana so who can say what year we would actually get to it=3D2C and=
t=3D
omorrow works for me also as it is of no real inconvenience or consequence =
=3D
for me here in Arizona where serenity is at a premium.
=3D20
Have your service tested during peak use times vs. off hrs=3D3B you may be=
s=3D
urprised at the variation in voltage readings.
=3D20
David Woof
=3D20
=3D20
_______________________________________________________________________
6a. Re: L&L or Skutt???
Posted by: "Arnold Howard" ahoward@PARAGONWEB.COM=3D20
Date: Tue Jan 11=3D2C 2011 4:22 pm ((PST))
=3D20
On 1/7/2011 11:12 AM=3D2C C Sullivan wrote:
After years of fighting with my original=3D2C
> straight-from-the-factory=3D2C Paragon kiln which never performed well=3D=
2C w=3D
ould
> barely reach cone 5 (and that only with constant coaxing)=3D2C and was on=
e =3D
of
> the more frustrating experiences in life=3D2C it's such a joy to have the
> Skutt.
=3D20
Chae=3D2C I'm sorry your Xpress-1193 will not reach cone 6. I suspect it is
because of low voltage. A 120-volt kiln of that size will underfire
unless it has a full 120 volts under load.
=3D20
Believe me=3D2C I take it to heart when a customer has a negative experienc=
e
with a Paragon. I like to think that a kiln is a joy to purchase and
that it will still be firing years from now.
=3D20
Let me know if you need my assistance.
=3D20
Sincerely=3D2C
=3D20
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries=3D2C L.P.=3D2C Mesquite=3D2C Texas USA
ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com
=3D20
=3D20
=3D
C Sullivan on thu 13 jan 11
Hi David
Rather than rehash old beans, i was going to ignore Howard's post. But
since you sound absolutely sincere, i'll just say that i'm absolutely
grateful that the same house current which purportedly didn't have enough
voltage to run a little ole 110 V kiln, does have enough voltage to run the
large Skutt 240V kiln in peak hours.
And gosh !!! am i ever thanking God that this kiln works perfectly.
Chae
On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 11:13 AM, David Woof wrote:
> Hi C. S,
> I'm sure Howard nailed it; lower than the expected 120 volt delivery is =
a
> real issue in residential electrical service. We are underpowered in the
> area where I live so each late afternoon, during the dinner cooking time =
in
> nearby "Patio Town", my kilns and welders have fits because of the
> increased voltage drain. My solution is to fire over night and if I nee=
d
> to weld, I work mid AM thru about 3 PM, or after dinner.
> I could raise a ruckus with APS and demand more power; but this is the
> land of manana so who can say what year we would actually get to it, and
> tomorrow works for me also as it is of no real inconvenience or consequen=
ce
> for me here in Arizona where serenity is at a premium.
>
> Have your service tested during peak use times vs. off hrs; you may be
> surprised at the variation in voltage readings.
>
> David Woof
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> 6a. Re: L&L or Skutt???
> Posted by: "Arnold Howard" ahoward@PARAGONWEB.COM
> Date: Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:22 pm ((PST))
>
> On 1/7/2011 11:12 AM, C Sullivan wrote:
> After years of fighting with my original,
> > straight-from-the-factory, Paragon kiln which never performed well, wou=
ld
> > barely reach cone 5 (and that only with constant coaxing), and was one =
of
> > the more frustrating experiences in life, it's such a joy to have the
> > Skutt.
>
> Chae, I'm sorry your Xpress-1193 will not reach cone 6. I suspect it is
> because of low voltage. A 120-volt kiln of that size will underfire
> unless it has a full 120 volts under load.
>
> Believe me, I take it to heart when a customer has a negative experience
> with a Paragon. I like to think that a kiln is a joy to purchase and
> that it will still be firing years from now.
>
> Let me know if you need my assistance.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Arnold Howard
> Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA
> ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
Steve Slatin on fri 14 jan 11
Chae, you've probably got 3 phases of
power at your home. (Not all outlets are
attached to the same phase.) You may,
actually, have one phase with all of the
110 V appliances on it -- including the
occasional small kiln -- and two that
are used only for water heater, dryer,=3D20
etc.
Depending on how your entire neighborhood
is wired up, it may even be that the two
phases used for heavy appliances are actually
right up to rated voltage and the one that's
used for practically everything else is quite
low. When I lived in D.C., the wiring I
started with gave me 105 V on a good day, and
on a hot summer afternoon barely 100 V. I
found I have a perfectly good phase that
supported a steady 112 V in the building.
But my whole neighborhood was wired up in the
early years of the last century, and that first
phase was WAAAYYY overcommitted. The other
two were mostly from the 1960's and 1970's
(lots of rehabbing done then in that neighborhood)
and they were more reliable.
There are many different things that could have
been problems with that Paragon kiln of yours,=3D20
but the large number of satisfied Paragon customers
indicates that most of their products hit rated
temps without difficulties. Could it have been
defective? Yes! Perhaps the elements were of the
wrong impedance, for example. Perhaps the kiln
had too much air (and, consequently, heat) leakage.
Perhaps the controller was off, or there was a
problem with the switches.
But the likeliest source of the problem is=3D20
low voltage, and it's irrelevant that a 220 V
appliance in the same house works correctly.
Best wishes --
Steve Slatin =3D20
> Hi David
> Rather than rehash old beans, i was going to ignore
> Howard's post.=3DA0 But
> since you sound absolutely sincere, i'll just say that i'm
> absolutely
> grateful that the same house current which purportedly
> didn't have enough
> voltage to run a little ole 110 V kiln, does have enough
> voltage to run the
> large Skutt 240V kiln in peak hours.=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A
Nancy Spinella on fri 14 jan 11
Steve, are you sure you're using "phases" correctly?
3-phase power is usually a business/school thing; single-phase power is a
residential thing.
You can have more than one outlet attached to the same breaker; 220v outlet=
s
*must* be attached to a double-pole breaker (110x2). So you definitely can'=
t
have 110v appliances and 220v appliances on the same breaker, but if you
have more than one item on the same breaker it could affect your voltage.
Just wanted to clarify....
--Nancy
On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 1:19 PM, Steve Slatin wrote=
:
> Chae, you've probably got 3 phases of
> power at your home. (Not all outlets are
> attached to the same phase.) You may,
> actually, have one phase with all of the
> 110 V appliances on it -- including the
> occasional small kiln -- and two that
> are used only for water heater, dryer,
> etc.
>
> Depending on how your entire neighborhood
> is wired up, it may even be that the two
> phases used for heavy appliances are actually
> right up to rated voltage and the one that's
> used for practically everything else is quite
> low. When I lived in D.C., the wiring I
> started with gave me 105 V on a good day, and
> on a hot summer afternoon barely 100 V. I
> found I have a perfectly good phase that
> supported a steady 112 V in the building.
>
> But my whole neighborhood was wired up in the
> early years of the last century, and that first
> phase was WAAAYYY overcommitted. The other
> two were mostly from the 1960's and 1970's
> (lots of rehabbing done then in that neighborhood)
> and they were more reliable.
>
> There are many different things that could have
> been problems with that Paragon kiln of yours,
> but the large number of satisfied Paragon customers
> indicates that most of their products hit rated
> temps without difficulties. Could it have been
> defective? Yes! Perhaps the elements were of the
> wrong impedance, for example. Perhaps the kiln
> had too much air (and, consequently, heat) leakage.
> Perhaps the controller was off, or there was a
> problem with the switches.
>
> But the likeliest source of the problem is
> low voltage, and it's irrelevant that a 220 V
> appliance in the same house works correctly.
>
> Best wishes --
> Steve Slatin
>
> > Hi David
> > Rather than rehash old beans, i was going to ignore
> > Howard's post. But
> > since you sound absolutely sincere, i'll just say that i'm
> > absolutely
> > grateful that the same house current which purportedly
> > didn't have enough
> > voltage to run a little ole 110 V kiln, does have enough
> > voltage to run the
> > large Skutt 240V kiln in peak hours.
>
>
>
>
--
www.twitter.com/nanspins
www.wix.com/nanspin/pottery
Steve Slatin on fri 14 jan 11
Nancy --
It's a common usage in the building trades, if not
a universal one. Briefly, there is a difference
between a circuit and an independent circuit -- and
it makes no difference to us here. And there is
a difference between true 3-phase power and power
with three 'legs' though it is also irrelevant to
most of us.
But where a circuit breaker is in the system
doesn't change the voltage. If you're on one phase
(if you will, call it one 'leg') home power
system with 100 amps at the panel, and you've got a
coffee maker, a hair dryer, and a space heater on it,
that's no problem. If you've got them on one 30 amp
circuit breaker, you'll pop the breaker over and over.
If you bring an electrician into the house and
explain the problem, he'll find the problem, and
do what's called "balancing the load" -- which will
involve putting the outlet where the space heater
is on the circuit breaker that supports, say, the
ceiling fixtures in the bedroom, and the outlet that
supports the coffee pot on perhaps the circuit that
supports the wall sockets in the study, and then
the hair dryer is on a circuit with no other
high-drawing appliances and 30 amp -- or even
lower-rated -- circuit breakers won't blow.
But all of these examples presume that the big
cable from the power company just has one 'live'
wire and a return wire plus maybe a ground (or,
if you're very rural, perhaps a live wire alone,
though I haven't seen one of these setups in many years).
So how does your house run 220 V appliances? Well,
your electric company runs high voltage to a nearby
transformer (that big cannister on the power line
that you can hear humming on a quiet summer day) and
steps down the voltage in the cannister to 220 V --
and 'center taps' the output to provide two separate
'live' lines, which are run in a big honking cable
to your house along with a neutral wire.
Either 'live' line to the neutral gives 120 V.
The two 'live' lines running one to the other give
220 V. The ground wire is not involved with this.
PEOPLE! THE NEUTRAL WIRE IS NOT A GROUND! (Shouting
because I had to repair a dangerous installation
once done by someone who thought he knew what he
was doing.) These two 'live' lines are sometimes
called 'legs' but are more commonly known as phases.
Now, is there something that's called a phase, and
is it different? Yes! Our example has your electrical
company bringing 220 power in center tapped on two
different live lines. But in some environments,
especially schools, commercial establishments, and
larger apartment buildings, the power company may
bring in three live lines, each of which comes out
of a separate coil in a generator. The total voltage
is 480, but it's spread across the 3 'live' lines.
Each of these live lines has the same 'high' voltage
(which looks just like a sine wave on an oscilliscope)
but each is 1/3 of a complete revolution out of sync
with the next -- call it out of phase, and suddenly
the source of the term phase becomes evident.
The 208 voltage standard you see for some kilns
is actually the output voltage BETWEEN phases of
the secondary windings of a Wye transformer stepping
down from 480 V to a normal range.
If anyone wants to know about the difference between
the wiring a a Wye transformer and a Delta transformer
(the other standard for those 480 V power systems)
I will be happy to address it, but I believe it has
no relevance here.
The point is, you overcommit on a circuit breaker,
you blow a circuit breaker. Overcommit on a circuit,
going through several breakers, and your breakers
won't pop but your voltage can drop. A voltage drop
on one circuit (aka phase, aka leg) in your home
while other circuits are just peachy is not uncommon.
Sorry for going on too long, but I don't have time
today to make it shorter.
Steve Slatin --
--- On Fri, 1/14/11, Nancy Spinella wrote:
> Steve, are you sure you're using
> "phases" correctly?
>
> 3-phase power is usually a business/school thing;
> single-phase power is a
> residential thing.
>
Larry Kruzan on sat 15 jan 11
Steve - in 35 years of being an electrician, electrical engineer, and
electrical contractor that is the most wrong description of how electricity
is supplied I have EVER read or heard.
Phases are just that - each phase of a three phase ciruit has energy
supplied at 180 degrees off phase from each of the other two, thereby
supplying a smoother level of power as compared to a single phase which see=
n
as a simple sine wave, ossilating from 0 to 120 and back to 0 volts 60 time=
s
a second (one cycle of 60 per second). Three phase power is supplied with
each leg 180 degrees out of phase from the other so that when leg 1's
voltage reaches its peak voltage, leg 2 is 0 volts of that voltage and leg =
3
is at maximum negative voltage - this is not exact but is relatively
correct. Three phases - all equal.
AS you pointed out, household electricity is single phase but that's about
all that's correct. It is really a 120 volt supply, single phase - period.
There are two wires that carry power and a ground. If you measure the
potential (volts) between the two power wires, it will read 240v, measure
the potential between a power wire and ground and it will measure 120v. If
you look at the oscilloscope output, the two power leads are 180 inverted
from each other - when lead one is at maximum, the other lead will show
minimum (the lowest point of the sine wave) and since these two are each
120v leads you end up with 240v of potential between them. Where you got
confused is that each of the wires in a household service are still in-phas=
e
with each of the others. A single phase.
A lot of the problem is semantics but there is a lot of confusion too. I
don't even want to jump into the rest of what you said about the transforme=
r
boxes and what is supplied in and out. Most of what has been put out is jus=
t
inaccurate, wrong and potentially dangerous. Keep out of the breaker box if
you don't know what's in there!
I've been out of touch for a few days and will be for a few more - putting
my mom in a nursing home right now - bigger fish to fry. But I check back
from time to time.
Larry Kruzan
Lost Creek Pottery
www.lostcreekpottery.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Steve Slatin
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 9:21 PM
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: L&L or Skutt???
Nancy --
It's a common usage in the building trades, if not
a universal one. Briefly, there is a difference
between a circuit and an independent circuit -- and
it makes no difference to us here. And there is
a difference between true 3-phase power and power
with three 'legs' though it is also irrelevant to
most of us.
But where a circuit breaker is in the system
doesn't change the voltage. If you're on one phase
(if you will, call it one 'leg') home power
system with 100 amps at the panel, and you've got a
coffee maker, a hair dryer, and a space heater on it,
that's no problem. If you've got them on one 30 amp
circuit breaker, you'll pop the breaker over and over.
If you bring an electrician into the house and
explain the problem, he'll find the problem, and
do what's called "balancing the load" -- which will
involve putting the outlet where the space heater
is on the circuit breaker that supports, say, the
ceiling fixtures in the bedroom, and the outlet that
supports the coffee pot on perhaps the circuit that
supports the wall sockets in the study, and then
the hair dryer is on a circuit with no other
high-drawing appliances and 30 amp -- or even
lower-rated -- circuit breakers won't blow.
But all of these examples presume that the big
cable from the power company just has one 'live'
wire and a return wire plus maybe a ground (or,
if you're very rural, perhaps a live wire alone,
though I haven't seen one of these setups in many years).
So how does your house run 220 V appliances? Well,
your electric company runs high voltage to a nearby
transformer (that big cannister on the power line
that you can hear humming on a quiet summer day) and
steps down the voltage in the cannister to 220 V --
and 'center taps' the output to provide two separate
'live' lines, which are run in a big honking cable
to your house along with a neutral wire.
Either 'live' line to the neutral gives 120 V.
The two 'live' lines running one to the other give
220 V. The ground wire is not involved with this.
PEOPLE! THE NEUTRAL WIRE IS NOT A GROUND! (Shouting
because I had to repair a dangerous installation
once done by someone who thought he knew what he
was doing.) These two 'live' lines are sometimes
called 'legs' but are more commonly known as phases.
Now, is there something that's called a phase, and
is it different? Yes! Our example has your electrical
company bringing 220 power in center tapped on two
different live lines. But in some environments,
especially schools, commercial establishments, and
larger apartment buildings, the power company may
bring in three live lines, each of which comes out
of a separate coil in a generator. The total voltage
is 480, but it's spread across the 3 'live' lines.
Each of these live lines has the same 'high' voltage
(which looks just like a sine wave on an oscilliscope)
but each is 1/3 of a complete revolution out of sync
with the next -- call it out of phase, and suddenly
the source of the term phase becomes evident.
The 208 voltage standard you see for some kilns
is actually the output voltage BETWEEN phases of
the secondary windings of a Wye transformer stepping
down from 480 V to a normal range.
If anyone wants to know about the difference between
the wiring a a Wye transformer and a Delta transformer
(the other standard for those 480 V power systems)
I will be happy to address it, but I believe it has
no relevance here.
The point is, you overcommit on a circuit breaker,
you blow a circuit breaker. Overcommit on a circuit,
going through several breakers, and your breakers
won't pop but your voltage can drop. A voltage drop
on one circuit (aka phase, aka leg) in your home
while other circuits are just peachy is not uncommon.
Sorry for going on too long, but I don't have time
today to make it shorter.
Steve Slatin --
--- On Fri, 1/14/11, Nancy Spinella wrote:
> Steve, are you sure you're using
> "phases" correctly?
>
> 3-phase power is usually a business/school thing;
> single-phase power is a
> residential thing.
>
Adron Lilly on sat 15 jan 11
Larry,
The phases are separated by 120 degrees, not 180.
Big difference.=3D20
Adron
On Sat, 15 Jan 2011 09:18:22 -0600, you wrote:
>
"Steve - in 35 years of being an electrician, electrical engineer, and
electrical contractor that is the most wrong description of how
electricity is supplied I have EVER read or heard.
Phases are just that - each phase of a three phase ciruit has energy
supplied at 180 degrees off phase from each of the other two,
thereby..."
Larry Kruzan on sat 15 jan 11
-----Original Message-----
Phases are just that - each phase of a three phase ciruit has energy
supplied at 180 degrees off phase from each of the other two,
<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Oops - should have been 120 degrees off phase.
Sorry,
Larry
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