John Rodgers on mon 7 feb 11
Marcey,
I lived in Fairbanks in late 60's early 70's. Moved to the community of C=
=3D
ollege at the edge of Fairbanks to study physics at the University of Ala=
=3D
ska. I too learned about the cold there, the cold hazards, and had my car=
=3D
killed by the cold a few times, until I figured it all out, what to do, =
=3D
how to do, what not to do. Electric cars there - dangerous in my opinion.=
=3D
To easy to get caught out. Even a very short trip in a regular automobil=
=3D
e in that extreme winter cold can turn deadly in just minutes, if one is =
=3D
not TOTALLY prepared to spend time outdoors in the cold in the event of c=
=3D
ar failure. If you have to walk for 30 minutes to an hour in any directio=
=3D
n when it is 40-50 below zero - you can be in big trouble in a heartbeat =
=3D
if not prepared. I went through the Air Force Cool School(Arctic Surviva=
=3D
l School) at Eielsen AFB just outside of Fairbanks. I learned not to eve=
=3D
n take a risk of any sort in that cold. Deadly!! You travel from your hou=
=3D
se to the grocery store with your car loaded up as if you are going to sp=
=3D
end a week camped out in the open in the cold and snow. It is the only sa=
=3D
fe way.
John
John Rodgers
Clayartist and Moldmaker
88'GL VW Bus Driver
Chelsea, AL
Http://www.moldhaus.com
On 2/7/2011 9:03 PM, Zephyr Sherman wrote:
> My sister in Alaska is a card carrying tree hugging vegetarian. Lives
> outside Fairbanks, Alaska because she doesn't like congregations of peo=
=3D
ple.
> When she was in the lower 48 3 or 4 years ago she bought a Prius, paid =
=3D
to
> have it shipped to Alaska and retooled for the climate. This means hea=
=3D
ters
> under the hood for the battery, the oil pan, and block with a cord that=
=3D
> hangs out the grill so you can plug in at home (and at work if your
> employer is a good one and provides plug-in stations). This is pretty
> standard for the area. If you don't have the car acclimatized then you=
=3D
> have to have a heated garage and keep the car running when it is out an=
=3D
d
> about. Some folks just never shut their cars off in the winter- idle t=
=3D
hem
> 24/7 in the winter. Which is why when they get a really cold snap the =
=3D
air
> quality is terrible.
>
> After the car got to Alaska she drove it several months before winter s=
=3D
et
> in. Once the cold weather hit she began to have problems with the car.=
=3D
> After 2 battery changes (under warranty but listing at $5000 each) she
> decided that the batteries also needed acclimatizing as well. If I
> remember correctly the batteries are located under the back seat and sh=
=3D
e
> solved the problem by adding an oversized heating pad to cover them wit=
=3D
h a
> layer of insulation over it. It gets plugged in when the car does. No=
=3D
> problems since then. I can't imagine having an all electric car there.=
=3D
>
> I do worry about her driving in AK in the car. It is very light but se=
=3D
ems
> to be doing well. The Alaska folks are very knowledgeable about cleari=
=3D
ng
> snow and keeping the roads clear. She does have a friend in town who w=
=3D
ill
> call her if a storm is hitting during the day to find out if she wants =
=3D
to
> rent a 4 wheel drive before her rental agency gives out the last one so=
=3D
my
> sister can get home. Good friend!
>
> And don't get me started about road kill! There is a sign outside
> Fairbanks which is updated periodically. Moose- 22 (or what ever the
> number is this year), Humans- 0. Occasionally the moose is injured but=
=3D
> more people die trying to avoid them, mostly because they know if they =
=3D
hit
> them it means serious damage to the car.
>
> Marcey Sherman
> Zephyr Pottery..... 1/2 way out Long Island, NY where the record snowfa=
=3D
ll
> had been melting a few days with 38- 40F weather, just in time for more=
=3D
> snow later this week. One big icy, slushy island.
>
>
Zephyr Sherman on mon 7 feb 11
My sister in Alaska is a card carrying tree hugging vegetarian. Lives
outside Fairbanks, Alaska because she doesn't like congregations of people.
When she was in the lower 48 3 or 4 years ago she bought a Prius, paid to
have it shipped to Alaska and retooled for the climate. This means heaters
under the hood for the battery, the oil pan, and block with a cord that
hangs out the grill so you can plug in at home (and at work if your
employer is a good one and provides plug-in stations). This is pretty
standard for the area. If you don't have the car acclimatized then you
have to have a heated garage and keep the car running when it is out and
about. Some folks just never shut their cars off in the winter- idle them
24/7 in the winter. Which is why when they get a really cold snap the air
quality is terrible.
After the car got to Alaska she drove it several months before winter set
in. Once the cold weather hit she began to have problems with the car.
After 2 battery changes (under warranty but listing at $5000 each) she
decided that the batteries also needed acclimatizing as well. If I
remember correctly the batteries are located under the back seat and she
solved the problem by adding an oversized heating pad to cover them with a
layer of insulation over it. It gets plugged in when the car does. No
problems since then. I can't imagine having an all electric car there.
I do worry about her driving in AK in the car. It is very light but seems
to be doing well. The Alaska folks are very knowledgeable about clearing
snow and keeping the roads clear. She does have a friend in town who will
call her if a storm is hitting during the day to find out if she wants to
rent a 4 wheel drive before her rental agency gives out the last one so my
sister can get home. Good friend!
And don't get me started about road kill! There is a sign outside
Fairbanks which is updated periodically. Moose- 22 (or what ever the
number is this year), Humans- 0. Occasionally the moose is injured but
more people die trying to avoid them, mostly because they know if they hit
them it means serious damage to the car.
Marcey Sherman
Zephyr Pottery..... 1/2 way out Long Island, NY where the record snowfall
had been melting a few days with 38- 40F weather, just in time for more
snow later this week. One big icy, slushy island.
Larry Kruzan on tue 8 feb 11
I'm always amazed when reading of intelligent, self proclaimed
"environmentally responsible" people living in a way that wastes tons of
energy, materials and jumping through all kinds of hoops to save just a
little gasoline, all because of some erroneous environmental guilt. Can you
imagine how much pollution - real serious pollution - was generated to make
three battery sets, plus the ongoing pollution to keep the thing charged an=
d
now to keep the batteries "warm".
Like the health food store where we buy a few things, they are very serious
about everything being wholesome, natural and healthy. The owner and I are
friends and on the chamber board together. We stopped in a week back and he
had picked up a line of very red Chinese made crock pots, looking them over
I found a very small sticky label that stated the pot was not safe for
contact with food. Want to bet that glaze was lead based? I pointed it out
to my horrified friend who confessed that he bought them because he knew I
could not sell them for what he bought them for. Hmmmm
I've got no problem with environmentalists who live the life they tout and
don't insist that "somebody needs to pass a law that everybody live like
they do" - I respect them. This may surprise some - I agree with a lot they
say. I do insist on consistency. I will not be a hypocrite. I will not
create 20 tons of carbon to make a product that can be made in a
"traditional manner" for 2 tons of carbon - then call it eco-friendly
because the box is printed with soy ink.
There's way too much of that going on.
Larry Kruzan
Lost Creek Pottery
www.lostcreekpottery.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Zephyr Sherman
<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>
My sister in Alaska is a card carrying tree hugging vegetarian. Lives
outside Fairbanks, Alaska because she doesn't like congregations of people.
When she was in the lower 48 3 or 4 years ago she bought a Prius, paid to
have it shipped to Alaska and retooled for the climate. This means heaters
under the hood for the battery, the oil pan, and block with a cord that
hangs out the grill so you can plug in at home (and at work if your
employer is a good one and provides plug-in stations). This is pretty
<<<<<<<<<<<<<< snip >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
After 2 battery changes (under warranty but listing at $5000 each) she
decided that the batteries also needed acclimatizing as well. If I
remember correctly the batteries are located under the back seat and she
solved the problem by adding an oversized heating pad to cover them with a
layer of insulation over it. It gets plugged in when the car does. No
problems since then. I can't imagine having an all electric car there.
<<<<<<<<<<< snip >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Doug Trott on tue 8 feb 11
I tend to agree, Larry, and there is way too much hypocrisy, or doing thing=
s
"for show." One gets the impression that some delight in suffering for
their beliefs.
I think it's also true that humans are (by definition!) full of
contradictions, and we must cut each other a little slack. We seem to want
perfection, and if we see the slightest flaw, that person looses all
credibility - whether an environmentalist or a politician. Of course, thos=
e
who pretend perfection deserve to be knocked off their high horse.
I think Wendell Berry wrote about humans being a combination of nurturers
and exploiters, with one being predominant but the other not completely
going away. By that logic I expect even the "greenest" to have some
not-so-green habits. And I don't mean areas for improvement, either - I
mean areas where the person has other priorities or preferences, and has
made an explicit decision to be less than perfectly green, and that's ok.
Perhaps instead of perfection we should request humility.
Doug
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:41 AM, Larry Kruzan wro=
te:
> ...
>
> I've got no problem with environmentalists who live the life they tout an=
d
> don't insist that "somebody needs to pass a law that everybody live like
> they do" - I respect them. This may surprise some - I agree with a lot th=
ey
> say. I do insist on consistency. I will not be a hypocrite. I will not
> create 20 tons of carbon to make a product that can be made in a
> "traditional manner" for 2 tons of carbon - then call it eco-friendly
> because the box is printed with soy ink.
>
> There's way too much of that going on.
>
> Larry Kruzan
> Lost Creek Pottery
> www.lostcreekpottery.com
>
>
Lee on tue 8 feb 11
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 10:35 AM, Doug Trott wrote:
> I tend to agree, Larry, and there is way too much hypocrisy, or doing thi=
=3D
ngs
> "for show."
it is easy to see the hypocrisy of others, especially to
justify ourselves. It is more difficult to see the hypocrisy in our
own hearts.
>I think Wendell Berry wrote
I agree with Wendell Berry when he said, "I am conservative about
things that should be preserved and progressive about things that
should be changed."
If you want to know what Berry believes about our
dependence on the oil/industrial/military complex, see article below.
He agrees with the conservative President Eisenhower:
Thoughts in the Presence of Fear
BY WENDELL BERRY
http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/article/214/
I like the ending:
"The first thing we must begin to teach our children (and learn
ourselves) is that we cannot spend and consume endlessly. We have got
to learn to save and conserve. We do need a =3D93new economy=3D94, but one
that is founded on thrift and care, on saving and conserving, not on
excess and waste. An economy based on waste is inherently and
hopelessly violent, and war is its inevitable by-product. We need a
peaceable economy."
--
=3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D9=
7that is, =3D
"The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Larry Kruzan on tue 8 feb 11
Hi Doug,
My new truck is one that most environmentalist love to hate (I have no idea
why) - it's a Dodge 1 ton dually pickup with a big diesel motor. With four
wheel drive and rear duals, it's a big truck - and it's MUCH more energy
efficient than my last one. My last van with a gas motor got 12mpg with jus=
t
me in it and when I'm towing my 35' Travel Trailer that weighs 8800 pounds,
that would drop to 6-8mpg.
This truck gets 20mpg cruising down the highway empty and 14mpg with the
trailer attached. Since I have a extra 50 gallon tank in the bed, my range
is well over 1000 miles towing on a fill with the trailer or 1600 mile
empty. Plus, since I tow 11,000 to 15,000 miles a year, this improvement in
mileage really adds up. In fact I have doubled my effective mileage by
buying a new diesel and getting away from gasoline. We're it driving to
Florida this weekend for a few weeks of sun before NCECA, we should make th=
e
round trip on two fills.
This is a real change, one that will make a difference in fuel used and I'l=
l
save a few dollars each trip.
I've been listening to "The Joy of finding things out" by the great
Physicist, Richard Feynman where he called for intellectual honesty in all
areas of research. That the researcher must perform all the test and proofs
for each step in their research. That if they accept the results of another
scientist that is later proved to be wrong - all their work is invalid. He
was gravely concerned that there were too many scientists accepting
potentially false data based on who said it, not on the proof of the work
itself.
A quick glance of the detergent isle of the store will show that every
product there has been rushed into new boxes with the word "green" on it.
Are we seeing the birth of a new religion? With converts accepting without
proof of outcome, the prophecy of it's leaders?
Just some thoughts. I'm heading to Florida.
Larry Kruzan
Lost Creek Pottery
www.lostcreekpottery.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Doug Trott
<<<<>>>>>>>>>
I tend to agree, Larry, and there is way too much hypocrisy, or doing thing=
s
"for show." One gets the impression that some delight in suffering for
their beliefs.
I think it's also true that humans are (by definition!) full of
contradictions, and we must cut each other a little slack. We seem to want
perfection, and if we see the slightest flaw, that person looses all
credibility - whether an environmentalist or a politician. Of course, thos=
e
who pretend perfection deserve to be knocked off their high horse.
<<<<>>>>
Arnold Howard on tue 8 feb 11
On 2/8/2011 2:40 PM, Larry Kruzan wrote:
> This truck gets 20mpg cruising down the highway empty and 14mpg with the
> trailer attached.
I used to drive an '80 diesel VW Rabbit that consistently got 45 mpg.
Sincerely,
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA
ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com
Lee on tue 8 feb 11
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 3:30 PM, Arnold Howard wrot=
=3D
e:
> I used to drive an '80 diesel VW Rabbit that consistently got 45 mpg.
Our first car in Japan was a Kei car. It got over 50mpg (better than
a Hybrid.) I've mentioned before, they come in every configuration.
Some come turbocharged and in two seat sporty models.
Look at these, the first Van has a custom package that makes it
look like a tiny VW Bus.
http://bit.ly/eDTEI9
or
http://www.google.com/images?rlz=3D3D1C1_____en&q=3D3Dkei+cars&um=3D3D1&ie=
=3D3DUTF-=3D
8&source=3D3Duniv&ei=3D3DFcJRTYCNPIO88gaA0qT-CQ&sa=3D3DX&oi=3D3Dimage_resul=
t_group&=3D
ct=3D3Dtitle&resnum=3D3D3&ved=3D3D0CDUQsAQwAg&biw=3D3D999&bih=3D3D607
--=3D20
--
=3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D9=
7that is, =3D
"The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Doug Trott on tue 8 feb 11
Jeez, Larry, a Dodge truck?!
I have the F250 diesel, the year they went down to 6.0 liter engines. I
also get 19-20 mpg, though I miss the days when diesel was less expensive
than gasoline. I don't drive it a whole lot (telecommuting I sometimes go
days without driving), but living rurally in west-central Minnesota, I don'=
t
think I could get by without a 4X4 pickup.
I'm lusting after one of these - but not as a replacement!
http://www.fiatusa.com/en/ Shame they don't have a diesel version.
Doug
http://www.prairie-garden.com
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 2:40 PM, Larry Kruzan wrot=
e:
> Hi Doug,
> My new truck is one that most environmentalist love to hate (I have no id=
ea
> why) - it's a Dodge 1 ton dually pickup with a big diesel motor. With fou=
r
> wheel drive and rear duals, it's a big truck - and it's MUCH more energy
> efficient than my last one. My last van with a gas motor got 12mpg with
> just
> me in it and when I'm towing my 35' Travel Trailer that weighs 8800 pound=
s,
> that would drop to 6-8mpg.
> This truck gets 20mpg cruising down the highway empty and 14mpg with the
> trailer attached....
>
Larry Kruzan on tue 8 feb 11
The Dodge lineup includes the MegaCab which is just big enough for my
wheelchair lift - the only truck big enough for that trick. Rynomobility.co=
m
is the company that does the conversion, they have a few photos. They have =
a
new conversion for a Ford but I'm too tall to drive from the wheelchair -
besides that, the truck seat is much more comfortable than my wheelchair,
best leather seats I've ever sat in.
As for the Fiat - would you buy two - one for each foot???? LOL. Looks cute
though.
Larry
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Doug Trott
<<<<<<>>>>>>>>
Jeez, Larry, a Dodge truck?!
I have the F250 diesel, the year they went down to 6.0 liter engines. I
also get 19-20 mpg, though I miss the days when diesel was less expensive
than gasoline. I don't drive it a whole lot (telecommuting I sometimes go
days without driving), but living rurally in west-central Minnesota, I don'=
t
think I could get by without a 4X4 pickup.
I'm lusting after one of these - but not as a replacement!
http://www.fiatusa.com/en/ Shame they don't have a diesel version.
Doug
Larry Kruzan on wed 9 feb 11
Hi Ivor,
Please do not think I'm anti electric cars - I'm an electrical engineer and
a total tech junky. I think that electric WILL be a help but it is not a
total solution. Those Milk trucks did a fine job for the time and place, bu=
t
if you were to attempt to produce them here and now, you would have to make
them conform to all the safety and environment regs that the auto industry
is drowning in. They would cost $75,000, weight 5,000 pounds and run for 40
miles.
I lived in Germany for a few years and a friend had a little Italian car
called a "Bamby" or "Bambito" (as I recall - sorry, cloudy memory). That
little thing got 45-50mpg. It had a 3 cylinder air cooled motor and six of
us could pick it up and carry it around. LOL (A long story that involved
moving it into a place no car could go) It did not have the least hint of a
safety device - no seat belts, air bags and the seat were formed plastic -
it was a death trap.
We really don't want to go there, but perhaps a bit less junk piling up our
car and trucks would help us get better mileage. A friend has a 07 Dodge
truck with a Diesel that got 18mpg from the factory. One day he replaced th=
e
catalytic converter with a straight pipe, pulled off the EGR system and
about 40 pounds of other junk off the motor, added a high tech engine
programmer in the cab and ended up with a increase of over 100hp and
increased his mileage to 23mpg. He then ran through Texas EPA check and
passed.
Everybody who is honest knows how to get good economy and run clean, but
it's hardly possible with the hodge-podge mess of regs the car makers have
to live with. Ask ANY street rodder who is building their own car how to ge=
t
mileage - they KNOW - a small block with a mild cam, low compression piston=
s
and a 500cfm carb, good headers with turbo mufflers, plugged into a 1200
pound frame and full body will get 20-25mpg if the driver keeps his foot ou=
t
of it. They can be made better in lots of ways.
BTW a 1 KW solar charger would not be nearly enough to charge these cars
I've seen. I can't quote the actual energy consumption of them, but I'd be
surprised if it was less than 20-30kw hr. at cruise speed. It takes much
more power to accelerate from a stop. Ride around for 3-4 hours and your 1k=
w
charger will take a few days to bring it back (12kw a day does not do much
work). The math is pretty simple - it takes a specific quantity of energy t=
o
accelerate 1 pound of weight to a specific speed. That's a fixed quantity -
no matter what. Physics 101 (I could look up the exact numbers if you want
tomorrow)
With all the crap that DC has mandated that all cars will have, a car HAS t=
o
weight 2000+ pounds. I'm not saying it's all bad or worthless (although a
percentage certainly is), I'm just saying that 50mpg car or a all electric
car, that will go the distance we need in this country, cannot be built.
There is also the (my personal) problem of getting my big wheelchair in one
- none of the car builders build a hybrid, electric, or econobox that I (or
any disabled person) can use.
So I'll keep driving my Diesel Truck - Cummins claims the motor will go one
million miles - I'm going to test it.
Larry Kruzan
Lost Creek Pottery
www.lostcreekpottery.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of ivor and olive
lewis
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 7:24 PM
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Electric Cars in The Great White North
Dear Larry Kruzan,
Back in the 1960's I used to visit a factory on the Team Valley Industrial
Trading Estate just south of Newcastle upon Tyne that produced electric Mil=
k
Drays (or if you wish,Floats) They were used for milk deliveries all over
the UK.
They were ideal vehicles for short journeys which required constant stoppin=
g
and restarting. Their only drawback was the weight of the Lead/Acid
batteries which made them rather slow chariots.
On recent designs roof, trunk and bonnet space is wasted even though it
might collect about a kilowatt of energy per hour per square metre in brigh=
t
sunlight
Lis Allison on thu 10 feb 11
On February 9, 2011, Larry Kruzan wrote:
>.....
> There is also the (my personal) problem of getting my big wheelchair in
> one - none of the car builders build a hybrid, electric, or econobox
> that I (or any disabled person) can use.
>
> So I'll keep driving my Diesel Truck .....
Don't forget, though: even if a small electric vehicle won't work for
every application, having them for situations where they are effective
will be a net gain. What I mean is, even if some gas burners continue to
be needed (think 18-wheelers moving 40,000 lb. loads across the country),
having more eficient and environmentally-friendly options available for
other uses will be a great thing.
Don't feel guilty about your truck!
Lis
--
Elisabeth Allison
Pine Ridge Studio
website: www.pine-ridge.ca
Pottery blog: www.studio-on-the-ridge.blogspot.com
Garden blog: www.garden-on-the-ridge.blogspot.com
ivor and olive lewis on thu 10 feb 11
Dear Larry Kruzan,
Back in the 1960's I used to visit a factory on the Team Valley Industrial
Trading Estate just south of Newcastle upon Tyne that produced electric Mil=
k
Drays (or if you wish,Floats) They were used for milk deliveries all over
the UK.
They were ideal vehicles for short journeys which required constant stoppin=
g
and restarting. Their only drawback was the weight of the Lead/Acid
batteries which made them rather slow chariots.
On recent designs roof, trunk and bonnet space is wasted even though it
might collect about a kilowatt of energy per hour per square metre in brigh=
t
sunlight
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