Mel Jacobson on sat 17 jan 98
in most all cases....use hard brick.
we have melted a k-26 kiln into the ground.
we are going to rebuild it with hard brick.
hard only.
mel
http://www.pclink.com/melpots
mel jacobson on sun 18 jun 00
rick,
we are just trying to defuse the notion that all
kilns firing, salt, wood, gas...kill everything
within 20 miles.
what comes out of salt kilns is salt,
with the carbon and other things that come from
a gas kiln.
everyone wants to make a big deal of it.
so, then we can all be shut down...while
the big boys keep on spewing crap that kills us.
we become the `big` example.
and we cannot keep saying on this public forum....
`chicken little, the world is falling.`
mel
FROM MINNETONKA, MINNESOTA, USA
http://www.pclink.com/melpots (website)
Larry Phillips on mon 19 jun 00
David Woodin wrote:
>
> After seeing the firebox which was eaten away metal, brick etc
> wondered what happened to the workers who feed the salt to this
> kiln?
I am reminded of a story about a student in an electronics class, who
asked the instructor for a meter that would measure AC. When asked why
he wanted it, the student replied that he did not think the 110 volt
power was coming to his power supply. The instructor suggested the
student just brush the terminals with the back of his fingers, a trick
used by many.
The student was dubious, but went back to his lab bench. A few moments
later, the insctructor heard a very loud bang, and saw a bright flash.
The student ran up to the instructor, brandishing a screwdriver that was
about 2" shorter than it should be, obviously burned and melted. "Look!"
he said, "See what would have happened to my fingers if I had taken your
advice!."
--
Hukt on fonix werkt fer me!
http://cr347197-a.surrey1.bc.wave.home.com/larry/
Tim J Havens on mon 19 jun 00
Yea Earl;
A pal and I used up a 60 footer and a 20 footer - melted em . Great fun
but we did not have a whole lot of luck unloading the stock either ; more
was given to friends than was sold . What I'm getting to is the salt out
of the chimney - we did not notice any problem . The cows in the pasture
next door always moved to the other end but they did that with the raku
and pit fires also . We were always careful to stay up wind but sometimes
the wind would turn and we would be in the thick of it . It wasn't
something you wanted to breath but neither of us has shown any sign of
lung problems at least 15 years later and we are still very active - the
cows were more upset with the raku actually. Alohaz Tim
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ferenc jakab on mon 19 jun 00
----- Original Message -----
From: "mel jacobson"
To:
Sent: Monday, 19 June 2000 10:58 am
Subject: salt
> rick,
> we are just trying to defuse the notion that all
> kilns firing, salt, wood, gas...kill everything
> within 20 miles.
>
> what comes out of salt kilns is salt,
> with the carbon and other things that come from
> a gas kiln.
>
> everyone wants to make a big deal of it.
> so, then we can all be shut down...while
> the big boys keep on spewing crap that kills us.
>
> we become the `big` example.
> and we cannot keep saying on this public forum....
> `chicken little, the world is falling.`
> mel
Mel,
I've sent a reply on this subject to an earlier post. I take your point that
potters in the U.S. might have justification for being paranoid about
regulation. Never the less there is an induced myopia amongst potters on
this forum about the reality of the environmental unfriendlyness of some of
our activities. We have to face the fact that some of our activites are
environmentally destructive and yes each individual potter only contributes
a small amount, and yes the big boys are getting away with much worse. But
let us not hide our heads in the sand or sooner or later some one will kick
our arses.
Feri.
mel jacobson on mon 19 jun 00
thank you gavin for your scientific report on salt.
i more than understand what rick is saying, and in many
ways agree. things that come from kilns are dangerous...and
when it is done in a public space, well we ask for trouble.
i do not care much for salt. really. we have that kiln
at the farm, in a very private, rural setting. we do not enrage
our neighbors with it, and we are very careful not to over salt
and create clouds of vapor. we stay away from the fumes, and
are very careful.
when teaching or advising people on kilns, i often see folks
rushing to get that `soda` look that is so popular...i
tell them to wait a bit, and the craze will go away. building
a kiln is a very important decision, and what comes from the stack
and where it goes is critical in you staying in business...care and
concern for those things in the beginning are very important.
safety, neighborhood concern and pollution of course have to be
first and foremost, but, we also have to fire our work, and i know
of no way to do that without making smoke...and that goes for
electric kilns as well.
what really upsets me the most is watching college kids, not understanding
what is going on....adding 20-30 pounds of salt into an urban kiln because
they `want a really salty look`. vapors going all over campus, people
really angry....that is what is going to smack us all in the chops.
kilns and firing are a part of the history of potters. it is what brought
many of us to clay. we have to be responsible, smart, and use
as much modern science as we can learn to fire better, and more
cleanly.
we cannot let the urban legends rule our science however. we have
to get quality opinions, and do better science. i think gil stengal
did as well as he was able in researching salt fumes...he is a serious
guy, and is doing his best to get the word out about salt. i do
believe his research, or until someone else proves him wrong. then
i will adjust my thinking.
i have gotten those sore throats from the salt kiln at pigeon lake..
(univ of wisconsin) my friend, the state toxicologist for minnesota,
advised me to gargle with maalox or tums...he said i had
very slight salt burns at the top of my throat...it went away
in hours...with the gargle technique...he also told me to stay
out of salt fumes....they are salty. he also would agree with
gavin, when the stuff comes out and re unites with oxygen it
reverts back to salt.
i am an artist and a potter, not a scientist, i try to gather information
that will be responsible, but i have to be led by others.
we hope they know of what they speak.
mel
FROM MINNETONKA, MINNESOTA, USA
http://www.pclink.com/melpots (website)
David Woodin on mon 19 jun 00
I have seen a salt fired kiln used for industry. It was shut down by the
state in California. After seeing the firebox which was eaten away metal,
brick etc wondered what happened to the workers who feed the salt to this
kiln?
David
Earl Brunner on mon 19 jun 00
The corrosion that you see done by salt to bricks in a fire
box takes place at very high temperatures, so if the workers
are/were unfortunate enough to be in the firebox when the
corrosion took place then I fear the worse for them. Alas!
they no doubt are no more! Boy! I've seen what water can
do! Have you ever seen the Grand Canyon? Lets give up
water.
Dump some glaze into your fire box, see what happens.
The point is, that precious little has been done in studying
emissions from Salt kilns. People hear sodium chloride,
sodium going into the glaze, chloride going somewhere else
and ASSUME everyone within 100 miles will die. It's my
understanding that most industrial ones quit operations
prior to modern pollution standards and measurements, at
least in the U.S.
David Woodin wrote:
>
> I have seen a salt fired kiln used for industry. It was shut down by the
> state in California. After seeing the firebox which was eaten away metal,
> brick etc wondered what happened to the workers who feed the salt to this
> kiln?
> David
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
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--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
mailto:bruec@anv.net
Ray Aldridge on mon 19 jun 00
At 09:03 AM 6/19/00 EDT, you wrote:
>I have seen a salt fired kiln used for industry. It was shut down by the
>state in California. After seeing the firebox which was eaten away metal,
>brick etc wondered what happened to the workers who feed the salt to this
>kiln?
Probably nothing very bad, unless they fell into the firebox. (1) If you
can come up with a study that demonstrates some health-impairing effect
specific to salt fire workers in industry, it will be the first I've heard
of. (2) I wonder if the kiln was actually shut down by the state, since
the saltfire heavy clay industry was extinct long before there was much
official concern about environmental health.
Here's some anecdotal evidence that tends to make me believe that the
dangers of salt fumes are overrated. In Germany, birthplace of salt, the
few large commercial kilns left (and maybe they're all gone by now) are
updraft, with numerous flue holes in the roof. They are salted by workers
who walk around on top of the kilns pouring scoops of salt through these
flues. As a consequence, these workers are enveloped by clouds of fume. I
understand that they rarely keel over dead. In fact, some of these workers
are quite ancient.
(Note to the terminally earnest: I'm not saying that this is a healthy
thing to do. My point is that if there were much chlorine gas being
liberated, these salters wouldn't last very long.)
Just a data point, but it seems more relevant than the state of fireboxes
that were salted at white heat.
Ray
Aldridge Porcelain and Stoneware
http://www.goodpots.com
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