jonathan byler on mon 18 apr 11
as I stated earlier, we use the nitride bonded shelves (chinese from
larkin) and none have had any problems with spraying in a soda
solution. read vince's reply on this too, he has had no problems and
has done many more firings than I have with the same shelves. oxide
bonded is not a necessity, but apparently the advancers really don't
like temperature differentials, and probably don't work so good in a
steam filled kiln for that reason.
On Apr 18, 2011, at 9:51 PM, William & Susan Schran User wrote:
>
> Stick with the oxide bonded SiC shelves.
>
> Bill
>
> --
> William "Bill" Schran
> wschran@cox.net
> wschran@nvcc.edu
> http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
David Beumee on mon 18 apr 11
What are soda fire potters experience with the use of Advancer shelves?
Smith-Sharpe says never spray pots pots directly if Advancers are being
used, but if pots are not sprayed directly? What if the soda solution is
sprayed into the fire boxes only? Sure would like to save the weight, but i=
f
there's any chance of them blowing, I won't take it. I'll buy regular
silicon carbide shelves and deal with the weight.
--
David Beumee
Porcelain by David Beumee
806 East Baseline Road
Lafayette, CO 80026
www.davidbeumee.com
303-665-6925
jonathan byler on mon 18 apr 11
we have used our soda kiln only a few times so far, but have gotten
good results with the nitride bonded shelves from larkin. not sure
about delivery costs to your area, but their prices seemed reasonable
and the shelves seem to be holding up. we have the same shelves in
our ^10 reduction kiln and they have held up well through quite a few
firings despite lots of nasty glaze drips. none have cracked or
broken, except for the one I dropped. and you can't blame a shelf for
breaking when you do something like that.
Vince pitelka might chime in here, but I think he uses the same
shelves we do with good results.
On Apr 18, 2011, at 6:02 PM, David Beumee wrote:
> What are soda fire potters experience with the use of Advancer
> shelves?
> Smith-Sharpe says never spray pots pots directly if Advancers are
> being
> used, but if pots are not sprayed directly? What if the soda
> solution is
> sprayed into the fire boxes only? Sure would like to save the
> weight, but if
> there's any chance of them blowing, I won't take it. I'll buy regular
> silicon carbide shelves and deal with the weight.
>
> --
> David Beumee
> Porcelain by David Beumee
> 806 East Baseline Road
> Lafayette, CO 80026
> www.davidbeumee.com
> 303-665-6925
Vince Pitelka on mon 18 apr 11
I would never pay the price for Advancers and use them in soda. The Chines=
e
nitride-bonded shelves sold by Larkin work great in soda. Jonathan Byler
mentioned them in a post today. Bailey also sells similar 1/2"
nitride-bonded shelves for good prices.
I am not sure what it is about the nitride-bonded silicon carbide that make=
s
glaze runs and drips scrape off so easily. We use them in our reduction
kiln with no shelf wash, and glaze drips come off very easily. It is a goo=
d
idea to use wax with alumina mixed in if you are going to use these shelves
in midrange or highfire kiln with no shelf wash, otherwise you might get
some plucking on porcelain and whiteware bodies.
Recently one of my students had a large cone-pack explode on some of the
nitride-bonded shelf, and the cones melted all over the shelves. They
looked hopeless, but the mess scraped off with wide putty-knife and cleaned
up with a standard silicon-carbide abrasive block.
When we use these shelves in soda firing, we just give them a good scraping
after each firing to remove the accumulated soda, and they hold up very
well. They do erode slightly over time, and will eventually fail, but we
try to cull them out before that happens.
Keep in mind that you need to be careful with these shelves. If one of them
falls over on a concrete slab, it will shatter. They are more vulnerable
than thicker clay or silicon carbide shelves, but they are very worth the
price because of the ease of handling and cleaning.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
William & Susan Schran User on mon 18 apr 11
On 4/18/11 7:02 PM, "David Beumee" wrote:
> What are soda fire potters experience with the use of Advancer shelves?
> Smith-Sharpe says never spray pots pots directly if Advancers are being
> used, but if pots are not sprayed directly? What if the soda solution is
> sprayed into the fire boxes only? Sure would like to save the weight, but=
if
> there's any chance of them blowing, I won't take it. I'll buy regular
> silicon carbide shelves and deal with the weight.
I use Advancer shelves , but have never done a soda firing with them.
At a workshop I gave in NJ a few years back, the host had a soda kiln and
first time he sprayed soda solution in the kiln he broke 3-4 Advancer
shelves. Stick with the oxide bonded SiC shelves.
Bill
--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
William & Susan Schran User on tue 19 apr 11
> On Apr 18, 2011, at 9:51 PM, William & Susan Schran User wrote:
>> Stick with the oxide bonded SiC shelves.
>>
>> Bill
On 4/18/11 11:35 PM, "jonathan byler" wrote:
> as I stated earlier, we use the nitride bonded shelves (chinese from
> larkin) and none have had any problems with spraying in a soda
> solution. read vince's reply on this too, he has had no problems and
> has done many more firings than I have with the same shelves. oxide
> bonded is not a necessity, but apparently the advancers really don't
> like temperature differentials, and probably don't work so good in a
> steam filled kiln for that reason.
I'm glad to hear Jonathan & Vince are having good results with nitride
bonded shelves in their soda kilns.
During the research for the section on kiln shelves in Mel's book, I spoke
with the representative of one of the Chinese companies that makes the
nitride bonded SiC shelves and asked him about different applications and
that, at the time, there were several stories about these shelves cracking.
The rep told me a rapid change in temperature gradient across the shelf
would cause cracking and this would be from rapid heating/cooling or
spraying water based solutions on the shelves when they are hot. Thus my
recommendation for oxide bonded shelves.
I believe much of the issue with cracking of the Chinese-made shelves when
first introduced were probably more a matter of quality control of material=
s
and manufacturing. Since they do have a greater absorption rate than
Advancer shelves, this probably allows for some moisture application.
I would ask Jonathan & Vince; Are the shelves directly in the path of where
the soda solution is sprayed or is the solution sprayed in the flame path
and carried to the pots/shelves? If the solution is not sprayed directly on
the pots/shelves, that might be why the shelves are working for you.
Always good to have in-field information, thank you.
Bill
--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
June on tue 19 apr 11
I spray the soda solution directly on my pots as spraying a bit into the fi=
rebox. The advancers do fine; but two nitride bonded shelves cracked - both=
in the same place. I fire slowly and cool slowly (hard brick kiln), so the=
broken nitride bonded shelves didn't have anything to do with the firing =
schedule. Others have also reported breakage with those shelves. It could b=
e lack of quality control. I don't know. I see that the new nitride bonded =
come without those slits. I don't know if that makes a difference in their =
durability.
Ruggls and Rankin use advancers in their wood soda kiln with no breakage, a=
s do others. I'm just wondering it some people are spraying too much soda s=
olution in at one time, or not storing them properly, or if they're kiln wa=
shing them and not letting the shelves dry thoroughly, or?????
The nitride bonded shelves warp and also, they're only rated to cone 11 so =
if you're firing higher they would not be a good choice.
Warm regards,
June (watching my cooling kiln (now under 200F and looking pretty good from=
what I can see)
http://wwww.shambhalapottery.blogspot.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sodasaltfiring/
http://www.shambhalapottery.com
----- Original Message -----
From: William & Susan Schran User
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Sent: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 13:13:52 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: Advancers and soda
> On Apr 18, 2011, at 9:51 PM, William & Susan Schran User wrote:
>> Stick with the oxide bonded SiC shelves.
>>
>> Bill
On 4/18/11 11:35 PM, "jonathan byler" wrote:
> as I stated earlier, we use the nitride bonded shelves (chinese from
> larkin) and none have had any problems with spraying in a soda
> solution. read vince's reply on this too, he has had no problems and
> has done many more firings than I have with the same shelves. oxide
> bonded is not a necessity, but apparently the advancers really don't
> like temperature differentials, and probably don't work so good in a
> steam filled kiln for that reason.
I'm glad to hear Jonathan & Vince are having good results with nitride
bonded shelves in their soda kilns.
During the research for the section on kiln shelves in Mel's book, I spoke
with the representative of one of the Chinese companies that makes the
nitride bonded SiC shelves and asked him about different applications and
that, at the time, there were several stories about these shelves cracking.
The rep told me a rapid change in temperature gradient across the shelf
would cause cracking and this would be from rapid heating/cooling or
spraying water based solutions on the shelves when they are hot. Thus my
recommendation for oxide bonded shelves.
I believe much of the issue with cracking of the Chinese-made shelves when
first introduced were probably more a matter of quality control of material=
s
and manufacturing. Since they do have a greater absorption rate than
Advancer shelves, this probably allows for some moisture application.
I would ask Jonathan & Vince; Are the shelves directly in the path of where
the soda solution is sprayed or is the solution sprayed in the flame path
and carried to the pots/shelves? If the solution is not sprayed directly on
the pots/shelves, that might be why the shelves are working for you.
Always good to have in-field information, thank you.
Bill
--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
Brandon Phillips on tue 19 apr 11
I have the oxide bonded shelves from Larkin, they're about 1/2" thick,
same as the nitride. We have the nitride bonded at the university, glaze
drips come off in a pinch. I have a wood/salt kiln and my oxide bonded
shelves have been through 21 firings in that kiln and about 40 firings in
my gas salt/soda kiln before that. Never flipped them, never had one
crack. They're just now starting to sag a little. They're a little
tougher to clean than the nitride but hey, you don't soda fire because
it's easy, right? I've not heard good things about the nitrides in
salt/soda...but no direct experience. Play it safe and go with the oxide
bonded. Don't drop $150-200 per shelf on advancers for soda.
The oxide bonded are only like 4 or 5 pounds heavier than the advancers
but still half the weight of those 3/4-1" bastards. so the only real
advantage to advancers would be how flat they are...but in a soda kiln
you're wadding everything so that is a moot point. You can get the oxide
bonded for $50-55. At larkin if you order 20 or more you get $5 off per
shelf, or used to anyways.
Brandon Phillips
supportyourlocalpotter.blogspot.com
>> On Apr 18, 2011, at 9:51 PM, William & Susan Schran User wrote:
>>> Stick with the oxide bonded SiC shelves.
>>>
>>> Bill
> On 4/18/11 11:35 PM, "jonathan byler" wrote:
>> as I stated earlier, we use the nitride bonded shelves (chinese from
>> larkin) and none have had any problems with spraying in a soda
>> solution. read vince's reply on this too, he has had no problems and
>> has done many more firings than I have with the same shelves. oxide
>> bonded is not a necessity, but apparently the advancers really don't
>> like temperature differentials, and probably don't work so good in a
>> steam filled kiln for that reason.
>
> I'm glad to hear Jonathan & Vince are having good results with nitride
> bonded shelves in their soda kilns.
>
> During the research for the section on kiln shelves in Mel's book, I spok=
e
> with the representative of one of the Chinese companies that makes the
> nitride bonded SiC shelves and asked him about different applications and
> that, at the time, there were several stories about these shelves
> cracking.
> The rep told me a rapid change in temperature gradient across the shelf
> would cause cracking and this would be from rapid heating/cooling or
> spraying water based solutions on the shelves when they are hot. Thus my
> recommendation for oxide bonded shelves.
>
> I believe much of the issue with cracking of the Chinese-made shelves whe=
n
> first introduced were probably more a matter of quality control of
> materials
> and manufacturing. Since they do have a greater absorption rate than
> Advancer shelves, this probably allows for some moisture application.
>
> I would ask Jonathan & Vince; Are the shelves directly in the path of
> where
> the soda solution is sprayed or is the solution sprayed in the flame path
> and carried to the pots/shelves? If the solution is not sprayed directly
> on
> the pots/shelves, that might be why the shelves are working for you.
>
> Always good to have in-field information, thank you.
>
> Bill
>
> --
> William "Bill" Schran
> wschran@cox.net
> wschran@nvcc.edu
> http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
>
William & Susan Schran User on tue 19 apr 11
On 4/19/11 10:06 AM, "June" wrote:
> Ruggls and Rankin use advancers in their wood soda kiln with no breakage,=
as
> do others. I'm just wondering it some people are spraying too much soda
> solution in at one time, or not storing them properly, or if they're kiln
> washing them and not letting the shelves dry thoroughly, or?????
>
> The nitride bonded shelves warp and also, they're only rated to cone 11 s=
o if
> you're firing higher they would not be a good choice.
This discussion of shelves and firings is great and should continue with al=
l
concerned contributing their individual experiences. I contribute based on
my experiences and research with experts from industry.
The biggest issue with all nitride bonded Sic shelves is primarily flame
impingement that will result in too radical a change in the temperature
gradient across the surface, leading to breakage. Spraying a water/soda
solution directly on the shelf may also cause breakage. This could also
happen with an oxide bonded SiC shelf, though they are less prone to
temperature variation issues.
A good example: I spoke with the folks at the Bailey's booth at NCECA about
their gas fired kilns and using Advancer shelves. They recommend using high
alumina shelves on the first couple stacks of shelves where flame contact
may be an issue. Above that height, Advancer shelves are fine.
I spoke with Paul Geil of Geil Kilns a couple years back at NCECA. He got o=
n
the band wagon when the Chinese made nitride bonded SiC first came on the
market and ordered a bunch of them. Very shortly he was getting complaints
from customers that these new fangled shelves were cracking. He told me he
ended up having to replace nearly all the nitride bonded shelves, got no
satisfaction from the manufacturer and said he'd never use those G.D.
shelves again.
I know Tony C. uses the Chinese made nitride bonded shelves with good
success. So what is one to believe?
I have a Chinese made nitride bonded shelf that was sent to me for testing =
a
few years back. This was when they began forming them with expansion cuts t=
o
help relieve stresses that might cause cracking. I never applied kiln wash
and used the shelf in ^10/11 reduction firings for a couple years and I
still use it in ^6 reduction firings. Without kiln wash I can flip the shel=
f
each firing and have no warping.
A kiln wash can be applied to Advancer shelves. If one wants to go this
route, I would suggest contacting Marshall Brown at Smith-Sharpe for his
recommendations.
In the end, I guess one can only say: "Your mileage may vary..."
Bill
--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
jonathan byler on tue 19 apr 11
the soda is sprayed into the firebox directly, but if things don't go
well, it can ( and I think has) sprayed directly towards the shelves.
it is so hot that the solution vaporizes well before it hits the
shelves as far as I can tell.
On Apr 19, 2011, at 8:13 AM, William & Susan Schran User wrote:
>> On Apr 18, 2011, at 9:51 PM, William & Susan Schran User wrote:
>>> Stick with the oxide bonded SiC shelves.
>>>
>>> Bill
> On 4/18/11 11:35 PM, "jonathan byler" wrote:
>> as I stated earlier, we use the nitride bonded shelves (chinese from
>> larkin) and none have had any problems with spraying in a soda
>> solution. read vince's reply on this too, he has had no problems and
>> has done many more firings than I have with the same shelves. oxide
>> bonded is not a necessity, but apparently the advancers really don't
>> like temperature differentials, and probably don't work so good in a
>> steam filled kiln for that reason.
>
> I'm glad to hear Jonathan & Vince are having good results with nitride
> bonded shelves in their soda kilns.
>
> During the research for the section on kiln shelves in Mel's book, I
> spoke
> with the representative of one of the Chinese companies that makes the
> nitride bonded SiC shelves and asked him about different
> applications and
> that, at the time, there were several stories about these shelves
> cracking.
> The rep told me a rapid change in temperature gradient across the
> shelf
> would cause cracking and this would be from rapid heating/cooling or
> spraying water based solutions on the shelves when they are hot.
> Thus my
> recommendation for oxide bonded shelves.
>
> I believe much of the issue with cracking of the Chinese-made
> shelves when
> first introduced were probably more a matter of quality control of
> materials
> and manufacturing. Since they do have a greater absorption rate than
> Advancer shelves, this probably allows for some moisture application.
>
> I would ask Jonathan & Vince; Are the shelves directly in the path
> of where
> the soda solution is sprayed or is the solution sprayed in the flame
> path
> and carried to the pots/shelves? If the solution is not sprayed
> directly on
> the pots/shelves, that might be why the shelves are working for you.
>
> Always good to have in-field information, thank you.
>
> Bill
>
> --
> William "Bill" Schran
> wschran@cox.net
> wschran@nvcc.edu
> http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
>
>
jonathan byler on tue 19 apr 11
they still drop the price $5 for 20 or more.
On Apr 19, 2011, at 9:20 AM, Brandon Phillips wrote:
> I have the oxide bonded shelves from Larkin, they're about 1/2" thick,
> same as the nitride. We have the nitride bonded at the university,
> glaze
> drips come off in a pinch. I have a wood/salt kiln and my oxide
> bonded
> shelves have been through 21 firings in that kiln and about 40
> firings in
> my gas salt/soda kiln before that. Never flipped them, never had one
> crack. They're just now starting to sag a little. They're a little
> tougher to clean than the nitride but hey, you don't soda fire because
> it's easy, right? I've not heard good things about the nitrides in
> salt/soda...but no direct experience. Play it safe and go with the
> oxide
> bonded. Don't drop $150-200 per shelf on advancers for soda.
>
> The oxide bonded are only like 4 or 5 pounds heavier than the
> advancers
> but still half the weight of those 3/4-1" bastards. so the only real
> advantage to advancers would be how flat they are...but in a soda kiln
> you're wadding everything so that is a moot point. You can get the
> oxide
> bonded for $50-55. At larkin if you order 20 or more you get $5 off
> per
> shelf, or used to anyways.
>
> Brandon Phillips
> supportyourlocalpotter.blogspot.com
>
jonathan byler on tue 19 apr 11
the ones I got, some were perfectly flat, some came a little warped.
we fire to ^9-1/2 to ^10 - 1/2 depending on how things go and where in
the kiln and how well we control the heat. none of our shelves have
warped any worse than they were, and for the price, and how easy it is
to get glaze runs off, I am happy. all the corderite shelves we have
warped, too, and they don't go into soda kilns at all.
I don't know where everyone else gets their chinese shelves from, but
the ones larkin sold us, (two different batches and we will be buying
more) I have no complaints so far. he is a good guy to do business
with, who also seems to know his stuff, and I suspect that he would
stand by what he sells if we weren't abusing them.
On Apr 19, 2011, at 9:06 AM, June wrote:
>
> The nitride bonded shelves warp and also, they're only rated to cone
> 11 so if you're firing higher they would not be a good choice.
>
> Warm regards,
> June (watching my cooling kiln (now under 200F and looking pretty
> good from what I can see)
>
David Beumee on tue 19 apr 11
Great information everyone. Thank you all.
Question for Vince and Jonathan concerning the use of Chinese nitride
bonded SiC shelves in soda: Have been OK with soda solution sprayed directl=
y
on the pots, or into the fireboxes only?
Bill and Brandon - According to Bill's article in 21st Century Kilns, both
1/2 and 3/4" oxide bonded SiC shelves are available. Brandon - are the ones
that are only 4 - 5 pds. heavier than Advancers the 1/2" or the 3/4"?
David Beumee
Porcelain by David Beumee
806 East Baseline Road
Lafayette, CO 80026
www.davidbeumee.com
303-665-6925
On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 2:28 PM, jonathan byler wrote:
> the ones I got, some were perfectly flat, some came a little warped.
> we fire to ^9-1/2 to ^10 - 1/2 depending on how things go and where in
> the kiln and how well we control the heat. none of our shelves have
> warped any worse than they were, and for the price, and how easy it is
> to get glaze runs off, I am happy. all the corderite shelves we have
> warped, too, and they don't go into soda kilns at all.
>
> I don't know where everyone else gets their chinese shelves from, but
> the ones larkin sold us, (two different batches and we will be buying
> more) I have no complaints so far. he is a good guy to do business
> with, who also seems to know his stuff, and I suspect that he would
> stand by what he sells if we weren't abusing them.
>
>
>
> On Apr 19, 2011, at 9:06 AM, June wrote:
>
>
>> The nitride bonded shelves warp and also, they're only rated to cone
>> 11 so if you're firing higher they would not be a good choice.
>>
>> Warm regards,
>> June (watching my cooling kiln (now under 200F and looking pretty
>> good from what I can see)
>>
>>
--
William & Susan Schran User on tue 19 apr 11
On 4/19/11 7:06 PM, "David Beumee" wrote:
> Bill and Brandon - According to Bill's article in 21st Century Kilns, bot=
h
> 1/2 and 3/4" oxide bonded SiC shelves are available. Brandon - are the on=
es
> that are only 4 - 5 pds. heavier than Advancers the 1/2" or the 3/4"?
David,
My 12 x 24 Advancer shelves weigh 9 pounds each.
I have some old 3/4" 12x24 silicon carbide shelves that weigh 22 pounds
each.
Can't recall the weight of the 1/2" oxide bonded shelf I had for testing,
didn't seem like much more than the Advancers, maybe 4 pounds more - droppe=
d
and broke about a year back, but now all the little pieces serve as 1/2"
kiln posts.
Bill
--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
Vince Pitelka on tue 19 apr 11
Bill Schran wrote:
"I would ask Jonathan & Vince; Are the shelves directly in the path of wher=
e
the soda solution is sprayed or is the solution sprayed in the flame path
and carried to the pots/shelves? If the solution is not sprayed directly on
the pots/shelves, that might be why the shelves are working for you."
Hi Bill -
I think I probably covered this partially in another post. We charge
primarily into the firebox, but my students do occasionally spray directly
onto pots. Generally they only do that in little bursts, and they do spray
it directly towards areas on the pieces in the kiln. I would think that th=
e
results would be very undesirable if soda was sprayed more heavily directly
onto the pots. And I am trying to imagine why anyone would ever spray soda
solution directly onto the shelves. I would think that common sense would
tell a person to never do that, but then again, common sense is often in
short supply these days.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Brandon Phillips on tue 19 apr 11
Mine are 14 pounds...just weighed it. They are 1/2". I have the ones
with the relief cuts on each side, no problems. I have a few old 3/4" SiC
shelves and most of them have cracks right where those relief cuts are in
the 1/2". Guess they know what they're doing.
Brandon Phillips
supportyourlocalpotter.blogspot.com
> Great information everyone. Thank you all.
>
> Question for Vince and Jonathan concerning the use of Chinese nitride
> bonded SiC shelves in soda: Have been OK with soda solution sprayed
> directly
> on the pots, or into the fireboxes only?
>
> Bill and Brandon - According to Bill's article in 21st Century Kilns, bot=
h
> 1/2 and 3/4" oxide bonded SiC shelves are available. Brandon - are the
> ones
> that are only 4 - 5 pds. heavier than Advancers the 1/2" or the 3/4"?
>
>
> David Beumee
> Porcelain by David Beumee
> 806 East Baseline Road
> Lafayette, CO 80026
> www.davidbeumee.com
> 303-665-6925
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 2:28 PM, jonathan byler
> wrote:
>
>> the ones I got, some were perfectly flat, some came a little warped.
>> we fire to ^9-1/2 to ^10 - 1/2 depending on how things go and where in
>> the kiln and how well we control the heat. none of our shelves have
>> warped any worse than they were, and for the price, and how easy it is
>> to get glaze runs off, I am happy. all the corderite shelves we have
>> warped, too, and they don't go into soda kilns at all.
>>
>> I don't know where everyone else gets their chinese shelves from, but
>> the ones larkin sold us, (two different batches and we will be buying
>> more) I have no complaints so far. he is a good guy to do business
>> with, who also seems to know his stuff, and I suspect that he would
>> stand by what he sells if we weren't abusing them.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 19, 2011, at 9:06 AM, June wrote:
>>
>>
>>> The nitride bonded shelves warp and also, they're only rated to cone
>>> 11 so if you're firing higher they would not be a good choice.
>>>
>>> Warm regards,
>>> June (watching my cooling kiln (now under 200F and looking pretty
>>> good from what I can see)
>>>
>>>
>
>
> --
>
Vince Pitelka on tue 19 apr 11
David Beumee wrote:
"Question for Vince and Jonathan concerning the use of Chinese nitride
bonded SiC shelves in soda: Have been OK with soda solution sprayed directl=
y
on the pots, or into the fireboxes only?"
David -
I am not sure what the difference is between the nitride-bonded and the
oxide-bonded. Does oxide-bonded refer to the old heavy silicon-carbide
shelves? The 1/2" shelves that Jonathan and I have both been getting from
Larkin are advertised as nitride bonded.
We normally only spray soda solution into the firebox, but occasionally my
students spray directly onto the pots, and that has not been a problem. I
cannot imagine what the issue would be. The difficulties with Advancers or
Crystars have occurred when the shelf was allowed to absorb moisture while
cold and was then heated in the kiln. Of course the soda solution vaporize=
s
instantly when sprayed into the superheated kiln atmosphere, and I see no
way it could cause any problem with the shelves.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
John Hesselberth on wed 20 apr 11
On Apr 19, 2011, at 8:48 PM, Vince Pitelka wrote:
> Of course the soda solution vaporizes
> instantly when sprayed into the superheated kiln atmosphere, and I see =
=3D
no
> way it could cause any problem with the shelves.
Hi Vince and everyone,
Excellent point. Unless the spray is extremely course and propelled with =
=3D
the force of many psi, there is little chance any liquid water is =3D
hitting a shelf or a pot. As a crude illustration, think back to the =3D
images/videos of people throwing hot water into the air when it was so =3D
cold this last winter. It instantly turned to snow. And that was only a =3D
temperature difference of maybe 100-150 deg F. In a kiln, of course, it =3D
will be the reverse of forming snow--it will vaporize, but the =3D
temperature difference is more like 1500-1800F--huge. That soda solution =
=3D
will be vapor before it gets near a shelf or pot. The vapor cloud may be =
=3D
a few degrees cooler than the kiln environment for an instant, but it =3D
will not be liquid.
Regards,
John
jonathan byler on wed 20 apr 11
I have also found that our kiln wash put on very thin doesn't flake
off or come off very easily on these shelves. I have been using it on
some spots where there were some very pernicious glaze runs that won't
come off (raku glazed pieces that made it into the ^10 kiln). it
seems to help leach the glaze out of the shelf. I'm not sure flipping
them with this kiln wash would be a problem, at least it hasn't been
so far... we use 2 scoops alumina, 1 scoop epk, water to make a good
brush-able consistency. works for us.
On Apr 20, 2011, at 9:34 PM, William & Susan Schran User wrote:
> On 4/20/11 4:54 PM, "David Beumee" wrote:
>
>>
>> My question for this discussion: Is it worth it to spend the extra
>> $15 per
>> shelf for the nitride bonded SiC shelves, considering ease of
>> cleanup and
>> maybe a little less weight?
> David,
> If it is just you and you have control over everything, for $15 more
> I'd go
> with the nitride bonded shelves. Won't need kiln wash, can flip them
> routinely. One caveat - with porcelain you might encounter plucking
> using
> nitride bonded shelves. Easy fix - mix alumina in with your wax that
> you
> apply to the pots feet.
>
> Bill
>
> --
> William "Bill" Schran
> wschran@cox.net
> wschran@nvcc.edu
> http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
John Britt on wed 20 apr 11
It all depends if you spray the soda solution in a fine mist or a stream.=
=3D
A mist will=3D20
vaporize immediately but a stream will splash on the shelves. (I say that=
=3D
because=3D20
I have done it!) It also depends on the pressure in the tank. High pressu=
=3D
re will=3D20
propel the stream far into the kiln. Some potters love to over do the sod=
=3D
a. More is=3D20
better. eh?! That is the problem and how you crack Advancers.
johnbrittpottery.com
http://www.youtube.com/user/johnbrittpottery
John Britt on wed 20 apr 11
Hey David,
If it were me I would by half and half ,that way you can see which perform
better under your conditions. You may want uniformity, so that may be a
consideration. You may think you can do without kiln wash (which is the
dream of all potters), but my experience is that sometimes you still want
kiln wash. (Although I know that some potters don't use it and then flip
shelves.) But using some porcelain I have gotten plunking with no kiln wash
/or alumina hydrate.
Just my useless opinion,
johnbrittpottery.com
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 4:54 PM, David Beumee wrote=
=3D
:
> I asked the folks from Larkin about the differences between oxide bonded
> and nitride bonded shelves. Their reply:
>
> The main differences between the oxide bonded and the nitride bonded Sic
> shelves is that the nitride bonded shelves are lighter and a little bit
> stronger that the oxide bonded. The main advantage is that you don=3D92t=
h=3D
ave
> to use kiln wash with the nitride bonded shelves. Some people prefer the
> oxide bonded shelves because they are cheaper and when handled a lot,
> especially by students, they tend to get broken and the oxide bonded are
> just cheaper to replace.
>
> Both shelves will hold up the cone 10. The oxide bonded are 5/8=3D94 thi=
ck=3D
and
> the nitride bonded are 3/8=3D94 thick.
>
> Price: oxide bonded 12x24x5/8 =3D96 $50.00 ea
> nitride bonded 12x24x3/8 =3D96 $65.00 ea
>
> My question for this discussion: Is it worth it to spend the extra $15 pe=
=3D
r
> shelf for the nitride bonded SiC shelves, considering ease of cleanup and
> maybe a little less weight?
>
> David Beumee
> Porcelain by David Beumee
> 806 East Baseline Road
> Lafayette, CO 80026
> www.davidbeumee.com
> 303-665-6925
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 6:38 AM, John Britt w=
=3D
rote:
>
>> It all depends if you spray the soda solution in a fine mist or a stream=
=3D
.
>> A mist will
>> vaporize immediately but a stream will splash on the shelves. (I say tha=
=3D
t
>> because
>> I have done it!) It also depends on the pressure in the tank. High
>> pressure will
>> propel the stream far into the kiln. Some potters love to over do the
>> soda. More is
>> better. eh?! That is the problem and how you crack Advancers.
>>
>> johnbrittpottery.com
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/user/johnbrittpottery
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
--=3D20
Regards,
John
johnbrittpottery@gmail.com
http://ncclayclub.blogspot.com
www.johnbrittpottery.com
David Beumee on wed 20 apr 11
I asked the folks from Larkin about the differences between oxide bonded
and nitride bonded shelves. Their reply:
The main differences between the oxide bonded and the nitride bonded Sic
shelves is that the nitride bonded shelves are lighter and a little bit
stronger that the oxide bonded. The main advantage is that you don=3D92t h=
av=3D
e
to use kiln wash with the nitride bonded shelves. Some people prefer the
oxide bonded shelves because they are cheaper and when handled a lot,
especially by students, they tend to get broken and the oxide bonded are
just cheaper to replace.
Both shelves will hold up the cone 10. The oxide bonded are 5/8=3D94 thick=
a=3D
nd
the nitride bonded are 3/8=3D94 thick.
Price: oxide bonded 12x24x5/8 =3D96 $50.00 ea
nitride bonded 12x24x3/8 =3D96 $65.00 ea
My question for this discussion: Is it worth it to spend the extra $15 per
shelf for the nitride bonded SiC shelves, considering ease of cleanup and
maybe a little less weight?
David Beumee
Porcelain by David Beumee
806 East Baseline Road
Lafayette, CO 80026
www.davidbeumee.com
303-665-6925
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 6:38 AM, John Britt wro=
=3D
te:
> It all depends if you spray the soda solution in a fine mist or a stream.=
=3D
A
> mist will
> vaporize immediately but a stream will splash on the shelves. (I say that
> because
> I have done it!) It also depends on the pressure in the tank. High pressu=
=3D
re
> will
> propel the stream far into the kiln. Some potters love to over do the sod=
=3D
a.
> More is
> better. eh?! That is the problem and how you crack Advancers.
>
> johnbrittpottery.com
>
> http://www.youtube.com/user/johnbrittpottery
>
--
jonathan byler on wed 20 apr 11
YES. but that depends on how much money you have (and want) to spend =3D20=
=3D
on shelves. I wouldn't spend my money on the advancers unless I =3D20
needed perfectly flat shelves, or just had a bunch of money to blow. =3D20=
=3D
or maybe you want to buy local so to speak. that is a good reason =3D20
also. but if you are going with the imports, I would try to pony up =3D20
the extra money. most glazes chip right off. why pay extra to heat =3D20
up the extra mass in the thicker shelves if you don't have to? small =3D20=
=3D
additional investment up front might save you money in the future.
On Apr 20, 2011, at 3:54 PM, David Beumee wrote:
> I asked the folks from Larkin about the differences between oxide =3D20
> bonded
> and nitride bonded shelves. Their reply:
>
> The main differences between the oxide bonded and the nitride bonded =3D2=
0=3D
> Sic
> shelves is that the nitride bonded shelves are lighter and a little =3D20=
=3D
> bit
> stronger that the oxide bonded. The main advantage is that you =3D20
> don=3D92t have
> to use kiln wash with the nitride bonded shelves. Some people prefer =3D2=
0=3D
> the
> oxide bonded shelves because they are cheaper and when handled a lot,
> especially by students, they tend to get broken and the oxide bonded =3D2=
0=3D
> are
> just cheaper to replace.
>
> Both shelves will hold up the cone 10. The oxide bonded are 5/8=3D94 =3D=
20=3D
> thick and
> the nitride bonded are 3/8=3D94 thick.
>
> Price: oxide bonded 12x24x5/8 =3D96 $50.00 ea
> nitride bonded 12x24x3/8 =3D96 $65.00 ea
>
> My question for this discussion: Is it worth it to spend the extra =3D20
> $15 per
> shelf for the nitride bonded SiC shelves, considering ease of =3D20
> cleanup and
> maybe a little less weight?
>
> David Beumee
> Porcelain by David Beumee
> 806 East Baseline Road
> Lafayette, CO 80026
> www.davidbeumee.com
> 303-665-6925
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 6:38 AM, John Britt =3D
> >wrote:
>
>> It all depends if you spray the soda solution in a fine mist or a =3D20
>> stream. A
>> mist will
>> vaporize immediately but a stream will splash on the shelves. (I =3D20
>> say that
>> because
>> I have done it!) It also depends on the pressure in the tank. High =3D20=
=3D
>> pressure
>> will
>> propel the stream far into the kiln. Some potters love to over do =3D20
>> the soda.
>> More is
>> better. eh?! That is the problem and how you crack Advancers.
>>
>> johnbrittpottery.com
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/user/johnbrittpottery
>>
>
>
>
> --
Vince Pitelka on wed 20 apr 11
Brandon Phillips wrote:
"Mine are 14 pounds...just weighed it. They are 1/2". I have the ones wit=
h
the relief cuts on each side, no problems. I have a few old 3/4" SiC
shelves and most of them have cracks right where those relief cuts are in
the 1/2". Guess they know what they're doing."
Brandon -
Those sound exactly like ours, and the same thing occurred to me - that the
slits are just where silicon carbide shelves tend to crack. The only
problem with those slits is if someone knocks a shelf over - it is far more
likely to break. But of course the solution is to not knock the damn thing=
s
over. I have my students pretty much conditioned to that - to taking extra
good care of these shelves.
When I was making pots full-time in Northern California I had a
100-cubic-foot car kiln, and purchased 40 14x28x3/4 silicon carbide shelves=
.
I was doing full-on production, and I fired a lot, and I fired fast.
Silicon carbide shelves do not like very quick firings. When I went off to
grad school and sold the studio equipment, I had to just give those silicon
shelves away, because almost every single one was cracked. I kept using
them, but they all had cracks that had formed to relieve the thermal stress=
.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Vince Pitelka on wed 20 apr 11
David Beumee wrote:
"My question for this discussion: Is it worth it to spend the extra $15 per
shelf for the nitride bonded SiC shelves, considering ease of cleanup and
maybe a little less weight?"
David -
I agree with what Jonathan wrote in an earlier post in response to yours.
Yes, I would definitely spend the extra $15 per shelf for the nitride
bonded, for the lower weight, the ease of cleaning, and less thermal mass t=
o
heat up. For those advantages, they are a bargain for an extra $15.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
William & Susan Schran User on wed 20 apr 11
On 4/20/11 4:54 PM, "David Beumee" wrote:
>
> My question for this discussion: Is it worth it to spend the extra $15 pe=
r
> shelf for the nitride bonded SiC shelves, considering ease of cleanup and
> maybe a little less weight?
David,
If it is just you and you have control over everything, for $15 more I'd go
with the nitride bonded shelves. Won't need kiln wash, can flip them
routinely. One caveat - with porcelain you might encounter plucking using
nitride bonded shelves. Easy fix - mix alumina in with your wax that you
apply to the pots feet.
Bill
--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
Brandon Phillips on thu 21 apr 11
For soda I would probably use a thin wash anyways...the soda/salt bubbles
up on the shelf...especially if you're using a lot. You can either wash
the shelves or wad the pieces up higher.
brandon phillips
supportyourlocalpotter.blogspot.com
>> My question for this discussion: Is it worth it to spend the extra $15
>> per
>> shelf for the nitride bonded SiC shelves, considering ease of cleanup
>> and
>> maybe a little less weight?
> David,
> If it is just you and you have control over everything, for $15 more I'd
> go
> with the nitride bonded shelves. Won't need kiln wash, can flip them
> routinely. One caveat - with porcelain you might encounter plucking using
> nitride bonded shelves. Easy fix - mix alumina in with your wax that you
> apply to the pots feet.
>
> Bill
>
> --
> William "Bill" Schran
> wschran@cox.net
> wschran@nvcc.edu
> http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
>
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