David Hendley on tue 19 apr 11
After returning from a long weekend, I went in my studio this morning
and was stunned to see my electric kiln lid smashed to pieces on top
of and inside the kiln.
It had been left open, supported by the hinge. The rusty steel binding
around the circumference of the lid gave way, close to the hinge point,
and the whole lid crashed down, the hinge still in the 'up' position.
I need a whole new lid. Has anyone fabricated a new lid for their
top-loading electric? If so, I would appreciate any tips or suggestions.
It seems like it wouldn't be so difficult. I have IFBs, so I should be
able to mortar some together and then cut to shape with a pattern
from the kiln bottom.
Is a stainless steel band really needed? Why not just cut a groove
around the perimeter and install a cable with a turnbuckle?
Thanks,
David Hendley
david@farmpots.com
http://www.farmpots.com
Dannon Rhudy on tue 19 apr 11
David, I fixed one once, but the damage
was not so severe. I did need to use
a stainless band, width of brick, because
anything else cut into the soft brick. You
can get stainless sheet at box stores, but
likely you could see the local machine-shop
guy and see what he could do for you. Might
be you could use a different material, but
you know how corrosive the fumes are. On
top of the stainless, you could likely
use cable. I used a stainless strap tool (called Band-it)
and the buckles that came with it to hold
it all together on top of the brick-wide band.
As I remember the Band-it strap was about
an inch wide. Don't
have any pictures, sorry, and it was a school
kiln, some time back. Got the stainless from
the school shop, leftover from something.
I used ITC 100 to glue the brick together.
let me know what you end up doing. best - Dannon
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of David Hendley
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 1:07 PM
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Has anyone made a replacement kiln lid?
After returning from a long weekend, I went in my studio this morning
and was stunned to see my electric kiln lid smashed to pieces on top
of and inside the kiln.
It had been left open, supported by the hinge. The rusty steel binding
around the circumference of the lid gave way, close to the hinge point,
and the whole lid crashed down, the hinge still in the 'up' position.
I need a whole new lid. Has anyone fabricated a new lid for their
top-loading electric? If so, I would appreciate any tips or suggestions.
It seems like it wouldn't be so difficult. I have IFBs, so I should be
able to mortar some together and then cut to shape with a pattern
from the kiln bottom.
Is a stainless steel band really needed? Why not just cut a groove
around the perimeter and install a cable with a turnbuckle?
Thanks,
David Hendley
david@farmpots.com
http://www.farmpots.com
Hank Murrow on tue 19 apr 11
On Apr 19, 2011, at 10:06 AM, David Hendley wrote:
> Is a stainless steel band really needed? Why not just cut a groove
> around the perimeter and install a cable with a turnbuckle?
The nice thing about stainless banding is that it needs little but a =3D
piece of galvanized sheet or S.S. sheet to go around the 'corners', =3D
protecting the brick from incursion. I get my very large diameter S.S. =3D
bands from A-1 Hose Supply here in Eugene...... these have an integral =3D
worm-drive adjustment to tighten. With a dimension, I could send you =3D
one(or two).
Cheers, Hank=3D
WJ Seidl on tue 19 apr 11
David:
Sorry to hear about that...that really sux.
Be careful "re-engineering" the lid. The reason I suspect
for using the stainless band (thin) (besides manufacturing costs) is
expansion under heating.
Arnold Howard can probably tell you more, but I know from experience
that stainless cable
will NOT expand as quickly as stainless sheet metal. The bricks expand,
the cable doesn't,
and before you know it you have crumbling bricks (again).
It does not have to be a stainless replacement band. Standard sheet
steel (say 16-18 gauge, available at better hardware stores everywhere)
should work fine. You can spray the band you create with high-heat
woodstove paint (inside and outside surfaces)
to slow down rust. I believe it comes in red and black. Some wood
stove manufacturers may also have other colors.
One "innovation" I would recommend is a clamp-like arrangement. Once
the band is wrapped around the bricks, bend the ends of the band
90 degrees outward. Drill through both ends in two places and use two
10-24 bolts or similar (1/4-20 may be overkill, but if you have them
handy...) of the proper length to hold the band tight on the bricks. If
these are completely threaded along their length, they can then be
loosened and tightened as needed in the future. Or you could pop-rivet
(use steel) two automotive band clamps to the edge of the steel band and
tighten it that way.
Or, if you're REALLY up for a project, cast from refractory the entire
lid, and put in the edge some of those fancy screw threads you use on
your bottles. (I'm still amazed at those.) A Dremel can grind the
matching thread into the top bricks of the kiln wall.
Then you can just screw the kiln lid on .
Best,
Wayne Seidl
On 4/19/2011 1:06 PM, David Hendley wrote:
> After returning from a long weekend, I went in my studio this morning
> and was stunned to see my electric kiln lid smashed to pieces on top
> of and inside the kiln.
> It had been left open, supported by the hinge. The rusty steel binding
> around the circumference of the lid gave way, close to the hinge point,
> and the whole lid crashed down, the hinge still in the 'up' position.
>
> I need a whole new lid. Has anyone fabricated a new lid for their
> top-loading electric? If so, I would appreciate any tips or suggestions.
>
> It seems like it wouldn't be so difficult. I have IFBs, so I should be
> able to mortar some together and then cut to shape with a pattern
> from the kiln bottom.
> Is a stainless steel band really needed? Why not just cut a groove
> around the perimeter and install a cable with a turnbuckle?
>
> Thanks,
> David Hendley
> david@farmpots.com
> http://www.farmpots.com
>
William & Susan Schran User on tue 19 apr 11
On 4/19/11 1:06 PM, "David Hendley" wrote:
> I need a whole new lid. Has anyone fabricated a new lid for their
> top-loading electric? If so, I would appreciate any tips or suggestions.
> It seems like it wouldn't be so difficult. I have IFBs, so I should be
> able to mortar some together and then cut to shape with a pattern
> from the kiln bottom.
> Is a stainless steel band really needed? Why not just cut a groove
> around the perimeter and install a cable with a turnbuckle?
Hi David,
Yes, I've built/rebuilt a couple new lids for top loaders.
Want to work on perfectly level surface.
I found pipe clamps very useful for firmly holding together bricks while
cement dried.
Each kiln manufacturer has its own secret recipe for kiln cement, but
they'll all work.
Rubbing the bricks together to form an absolutely flat mating surface is
essential, as is removing all loose brick dust.
I put the cement, a little soupy, in a drywall compound box and dipped the
edge of brick in the cement, rubbing the bricks with cement between to get =
a
tight seal, repeating sticking the bricks together.
I then laid a 2x4 on the outside and clamped firmly with pipe clamps until
dry.
There is also a facing cement to keep the bricks dusting.
I think you want the band of metal to spread out the force of holding
together rather than cable that will cut into brick and might even cause
uneven twist.
Here's a good video from Paragon showing cementing bricks together:
http://www.paragonweb.com/VideoInfo.cfm?VID=3D38
I did find that I didn't need the computer or C&C router to cut the lid
shape as shown in the video.
Bill
--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
jonathan byler on tue 19 apr 11
I need to do this at some point, too. most important is to have a
flat surface on which to work. paragon will sell you the cement for
cheap. everyone else, prices seemed really high. a pint is $8.25, or
you can get it dry for 5.75/lb according to the literature I picked up
from them at NCECA. they also sell the kiln coating (not the cement)
that you use to coat the inside of the lid to keep stuff from
crumbling and falling on your pots. I would paint the lid coating on
both the inside and the edges under the stainless steel band, maybe on
top too, although it won't get hot enough to cure it properly
outside. it may help keep the brick from deteriorating.
I can't find it right now, but I watched a good video that someone put
up on the internet (maybe arnold howard) showing them building lids.
maybe someone else can chime in if they find it.
as to holding it all together, stick with the stainless steel band.
tried and true engineering-wise, it puts the least stress on the
bricks because it is clamping them over the whole surface of the brick
instead of at a few small pressure points. if you know someone with a
spot welder, you can spot weld the band clamps on to the band just
like new. or use stainless steel rivets (only use stainless, not
aluminum - they will corrode). spot welding seems superior, though,
if done right.
interestingly enough, the only places on our kilns where the bricks
have really gone bad is where the stainless steel touches the brick.
there is what looks like a sulfur/chrome compound getting formed there
which seems to flux the brick and eat up the steel at the same time.
not good. my next electric is going to be a front loader with the
bricks coated on all sides with cement, and as little contact with
metal frame surfaces as possible.
On Apr 19, 2011, at 12:06 PM, David Hendley wrote:
> After returning from a long weekend, I went in my studio this morning
> and was stunned to see my electric kiln lid smashed to pieces on top
> of and inside the kiln.
> It had been left open, supported by the hinge. The rusty steel binding
> around the circumference of the lid gave way, close to the hinge
> point,
> and the whole lid crashed down, the hinge still in the 'up' position.
>
> I need a whole new lid. Has anyone fabricated a new lid for their
> top-loading electric? If so, I would appreciate any tips or
> suggestions.
>
> It seems like it wouldn't be so difficult. I have IFBs, so I should be
> able to mortar some together and then cut to shape with a pattern
> from the kiln bottom.
> Is a stainless steel band really needed? Why not just cut a groove
> around the perimeter and install a cable with a turnbuckle?
>
> Thanks,
> David Hendley
> david@farmpots.com
> http://www.farmpots.com
Steve Mills on tue 19 apr 11
David, I've done this a few times.=3D20
I don't cement the bricks together as they are, I "machine" a Tongue & Groo=
v=3D
e profile on each brick, doubling the surface area so that they lock togeth=
e=3D
r when cemented, making a much stronger structure. I also use a stainless "=
h=3D
oseclip" material rivited (with stainless rivits) to hold the stainless ban=
d=3D
ing together. In addition I finish off the lid with a coating of very smoot=
h=3D
(sieved) cement to eradicate dusting.=3D20
The new lids tend to outlast the kilns!
More detail available if you want it.=3D20
Steve M
Steve Mills
Bath
UK
www.mudslinger.me.uk
Sent from my Ipod touch
On 19 Apr 2011, at 18:06, David Hendley wrote:
> After returning from a long weekend, I went in my studio this morning
> and was stunned to see my electric kiln lid smashed to pieces on top
> of and inside the kiln.
> It had been left open, supported by the hinge. The rusty steel binding
> around the circumference of the lid gave way, close to the hinge point,
> and the whole lid crashed down, the hinge still in the 'up' position.
>=3D20
> I need a whole new lid. Has anyone fabricated a new lid for their
> top-loading electric? If so, I would appreciate any tips or suggestions.
>=3D20
> It seems like it wouldn't be so difficult. I have IFBs, so I should be
> able to mortar some together and then cut to shape with a pattern
> from the kiln bottom.
> Is a stainless steel band really needed? Why not just cut a groove
> around the perimeter and install a cable with a turnbuckle?
>=3D20
> Thanks,
> David Hendley
> david@farmpots.com
> http://www.farmpots.com
jonathan byler on tue 19 apr 11
steve, how deep are the tongue & groove profiles on your bricks? this
would take some extra effort to do, but seems like it might be worth
it to a person who isn't trying to make money selling kilns, or to
someone who wants extra strength.
On Apr 19, 2011, at 4:10 PM, Steve Mills wrote:
> David, I've done this a few times.
>
> I don't cement the bricks together as they are, I "machine" a Tongue
> & Groove profile on each brick, doubling the surface area so that
> they lock together when cemented, making a much stronger structure.
> I also use a stainless "hoseclip" material rivited (with stainless
> rivits) to hold the stainless banding together. In addition I finish
> off the lid with a coating of very smooth (sieved) cement to
> eradicate dusting.
> The new lids tend to outlast the kilns!
>
> More detail available if you want it.
>
> Steve M
>
> Steve Mills
> Bath
> UK
> www.mudslinger.me.uk
> Sent from my Ipod touch
>
> On 19 Apr 2011, at 18:06, David Hendley wrote:
>
>> After returning from a long weekend, I went in my studio this morning
>> and was stunned to see my electric kiln lid smashed to pieces on top
>> of and inside the kiln.
>> It had been left open, supported by the hinge. The rusty steel
>> binding
>> around the circumference of the lid gave way, close to the hinge
>> point,
>> and the whole lid crashed down, the hinge still in the 'up' position.
>>
>> I need a whole new lid. Has anyone fabricated a new lid for their
>> top-loading electric? If so, I would appreciate any tips or
>> suggestions.
>>
>> It seems like it wouldn't be so difficult. I have IFBs, so I should
>> be
>> able to mortar some together and then cut to shape with a pattern
>> from the kiln bottom.
>> Is a stainless steel band really needed? Why not just cut a groove
>> around the perimeter and install a cable with a turnbuckle?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> David Hendley
>> david@farmpots.com
>> http://www.farmpots.com
jonathan byler on tue 19 apr 11
and bill found the video! excellent.
paragon is good people, like mel keeps telling us. and it is very
nice of them to have arnold do what he does. they understand, I
think, that it is good for business to tell a few folks like us how to
do this stuff, knowing that almost everyone else is just going to call
them and buy a new lid anyway. like I said in my earlier post, they
will sell you the cement and the coating - works great from what I
have seen... I will be doing this in the next few months. hopefully
it is as easy as it looks.
On Apr 19, 2011, at 2:13 PM, William & Susan Schran User wrote:
> On 4/19/11 1:06 PM, "David Hendley" wrote:
>> I need a whole new lid. Has anyone fabricated a new lid for their
>> top-loading electric? If so, I would appreciate any tips or
>> suggestions.
>> It seems like it wouldn't be so difficult. I have IFBs, so I should
>> be
>> able to mortar some together and then cut to shape with a pattern
>> from the kiln bottom.
>> Is a stainless steel band really needed? Why not just cut a groove
>> around the perimeter and install a cable with a turnbuckle?
>
> Hi David,
> Yes, I've built/rebuilt a couple new lids for top loaders.
> Want to work on perfectly level surface.
> I found pipe clamps very useful for firmly holding together bricks
> while
> cement dried.
> Each kiln manufacturer has its own secret recipe for kiln cement, but
> they'll all work.
> Rubbing the bricks together to form an absolutely flat mating
> surface is
> essential, as is removing all loose brick dust.
> I put the cement, a little soupy, in a drywall compound box and
> dipped the
> edge of brick in the cement, rubbing the bricks with cement between
> to get a
> tight seal, repeating sticking the bricks together.
> I then laid a 2x4 on the outside and clamped firmly with pipe clamps
> until
> dry.
> There is also a facing cement to keep the bricks dusting.
> I think you want the band of metal to spread out the force of holding
> together rather than cable that will cut into brick and might even
> cause
> uneven twist.
>
> Here's a good video from Paragon showing cementing bricks together:
> http://www.paragonweb.com/VideoInfo.cfm?VID=3D38
>
> I did find that I didn't need the computer or C&C router to cut the
> lid
> shape as shown in the video.
>
> Bill
>
> --
> William "Bill" Schran
> wschran@cox.net
> wschran@nvcc.edu
> http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
Snail Scott on tue 19 apr 11
On Apr 19, 2011, at 12:06 PM, David Hendley wrote:
> I need a whole new lid. Has anyone fabricated a new lid for their
> top-loading electric?
Easier to pillage an old lid or floor, in my experience.
> Is a stainless steel band really needed? Why not just cut a groove
> around the perimeter and install a cable with a turnbuckle?
The band width (so to speak) seems mainly to give
attachment points for the hinge. I also wonder if a
cable might tend to bite in and erode its channel
too rapidly without it.
My steel band is held with baling wire. The wire holds
the brick together, and the band distributes the wire's
force and allows for attachment. I meant this arrangement
to be a strictly temporary emergency measure after the
hose clamps rusted through, but it's been holding for a
decade. On the floor, not the lid, so the stresses are less.
For a lid, I think I'd actually replace the hose clamps.
-Snail
Steve Mills on wed 20 apr 11
Inch wide and inch deep. I use a home-made cutter and jig on my drill stand=
r=3D
ather than a Router (I find them too brutal), taking the brick to the cutte=
r=3D
rather than t'other way round...more control (and Wear a Respirator!!).
Steve M
Steve Mills
Bath
UK
www.mudslinger.me.uk
Sent from my Ipod touch
On 20 Apr 2011, at 00:02, jonathan byler wrote:
> steve, how deep are the tongue & groove profiles on your bricks? this
> would take some extra effort to do, but seems like it might be worth
> it to a person who isn't trying to make money selling kilns, or to
> someone who wants extra strength.
>=3D20
>=3D20
> On Apr 19, 2011, at 4:10 PM, Steve Mills wrote:
>=3D20
>> David, I've done this a few times.
>>=3D20
>> I don't cement the bricks together as they are, I "machine" a Tongue
>> & Groove profile on each brick, doubling the surface area so that
>> they lock together when cemented, making a much stronger structure.
>> I also use a stainless "hoseclip" material rivited (with stainless
>> rivits) to hold the stainless banding together. In addition I finish
>> off the lid with a coating of very smooth (sieved) cement to
>> eradicate dusting.
>> The new lids tend to outlast the kilns!
>>=3D20
>> More detail available if you want it.
>>=3D20
>> Steve M
>>=3D20
>> Steve Mills
>> Bath
>> UK
>> www.mudslinger.me.uk
>> Sent from my Ipod touch
>>=3D20
>> On 19 Apr 2011, at 18:06, David Hendley wrote:
>>=3D20
>>> After returning from a long weekend, I went in my studio this morning
>>> and was stunned to see my electric kiln lid smashed to pieces on top
>>> of and inside the kiln.
>>> It had been left open, supported by the hinge. The rusty steel
>>> binding
>>> around the circumference of the lid gave way, close to the hinge
>>> point,
>>> and the whole lid crashed down, the hinge still in the 'up' position.
>>>=3D20
>>> I need a whole new lid. Has anyone fabricated a new lid for their
>>> top-loading electric? If so, I would appreciate any tips or
>>> suggestions.
>>>=3D20
>>> It seems like it wouldn't be so difficult. I have IFBs, so I should
>>> be
>>> able to mortar some together and then cut to shape with a pattern
>>> from the kiln bottom.
>>> Is a stainless steel band really needed? Why not just cut a groove
>>> around the perimeter and install a cable with a turnbuckle?
>>>=3D20
>>> Thanks,
>>> David Hendley
>>> david@farmpots.com
>>> http://www.farmpots.com
Arnold Howard on thu 28 apr 11
On 4/19/2011 2:13 PM, William & Susan Schran User wrote:
> Here's a good video from Paragon showing cementing bricks together:
> http://www.paragonweb.com/VideoInfo.cfm?VID=3D38
>
As you will see from the video, the firebrick surfaces to be cemented
should be as flat as possible. Place the cement in a large tray so the
entire firebrick piece can receive the cement in one dip. Because the
cement is applied quickly, the firebricks do not need to be sprayed with
water.
You can also find the video on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dd53iug-tUmw
Sincerely,
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA
ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com
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