Lee on fri 22 apr 11
Craig,
Marguerite Wildenhain and the Bauhaus, edited by Dean Schwartz.
http://www.southbearpress.org/Home.html
I can lend it to you. It is a fat volume. I will look up the
passage and share it later.
It is one of those things like copper: folks think salt
firing and copper glazes are dangerous, not remembering that in both
cases, it is their association with lead that made them dangerous, and
not salt firing or copper by themselves.
--
=3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D9=
7that is, =3D
"The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
mel jacobson on fri 22 apr 11
remember, salt kilns in past times were made
for industrial production.
the most memorable were the german kilns that
once fired bottles...they just stacked them in the
kiln by the thousands.
salted the hell out of the kiln.
if they stuck together, they just broke them apart.
`graybeards` they were called.
lots of loss, but they did not care.
here in hopkins, minnesota there was a huge
salt kiln, right downtown in the late 1800's.
they made sewer tiles...those wonderful toast colored
tiles with the orange peel surface.
they stacked them in with no shelves. big bee hive
kiln. i have seen pix at the historical society.
in fact some at the society had no idea how they
worked, or what they were.
art and craft almost always take an old system of
work, and make it art and craft...however, as time
goes on...and methods change, and then it becomes
doctrine...folks forget where we come from.
think of the ming dynasty. porcelain pots. no kiln shelves.
glazed, perfect, no snot. no kiln shelves.
saggers. now we free stack pots in a wood kiln
and create a doctrine about how pots should look.
silliness.
times cures silliness.
if we look over our shoulder now and then, and see
how things were done....arrogance fades fast.
mel
from: minnetonka, mn
website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
clayart link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
new book: http://www.21stcenturykilns.com
alternate: melpots7575@gmail.com
Lee on fri 22 apr 11
On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 6:28 AM, mel jacobson wrote:
>
> remember, salt kilns in past times were made
> for industrial production.
During my apprenticeship, a potter from near Dresden in Germany (old
East Germany) worked at the studio for a couple months. =3DA0 I was happy
to see a Dresden potter is attending the=3DA0Mungyeong Tea Bowl Festival.
www.sabal21.com I hope to hear news of my friend. He studied with
the Master Kiln builder in Mashiko. Where he lives is peppered with
old salt anagama. He is building noborigama there.
>
> the most memorable were the german kilns that
> once fired bottles...they just stacked them in the
> kiln by the thousands.salted the hell out of the kiln.
They put in a mixture of salt and lead. =3DA0 Potters died young. =3DA0 I i=
ts
good to look at the past for both good and bad examples.
>
> think of the ming dynasty. =3DA0porcelain pots. =3DA0no kiln shelves...sa=
ggar=3D
s
=3DA0=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0Sung pots used saggers. =3DA0 As did climbing kilns. =
=3DA0 I've s=3D
een
tenmoku teabowls stuck in their saggers at the Idemitsu museum in
Tokyo.
> glazed, perfect, no snot. =3DA0no kiln shelves.
=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0The anagama died out and was replaced by more=
=3DA0efficien=3D
t
climbing kilns. =3DA0 But =3DA0they were revived in the middle of th 20th
century in Japan for their fly ash glaze effects.=3DA0=3DA0Modern potters
have the resources, knowledge and flexibility that industrial potters
of old did not. So they pick their firing according to the effect
they desire.
=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 One of the=3DA0aesthetics I have always been =
influenced b=3D
y is
the upper midwest =3DA0method of firing in vapor kilns, often in short
noborigama, This process doesn't aim at heavy or runny ash, but more
colorful flashing. =3DA0 =3DA0It was influenced by the work of Mark Pharis =
and
Michael Simon at the UofMn and also by the influences of the Yohen
chamber in Shimaoka's climbing kiln that Randy Johnston came back
with.
--
=3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D9=
7that is, =3D
"The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Craig Edwards on fri 22 apr 11
Lee--- could you reference where you got the idea that the Germans mixed
lead with salt. Thanks
~Craig
On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 8:19 AM, Lee wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 6:28 AM, mel jacobson wrote:
> >
> > remember, salt kilns in past times were made
> > for industrial production.
>
> During my apprenticeship, a potter from near Dresden in Germany (old
> East Germany) worked at the studio for a couple months. I was happy
> to see a Dresden potter is attending the Mungyeong Tea Bowl Festival.
> www.sabal21.com I hope to hear news of my friend. He studied with
> the Master Kiln builder in Mashiko. Where he lives is peppered with
> old salt anagama. He is building noborigama there.
>
> >
> > the most memorable were the german kilns that
> > once fired bottles...they just stacked them in the
> > kiln by the thousands.salted the hell out of the kiln.
>
> They put in a mixture of salt and lead. Potters died young. I its
> good to look at the past for both good and bad examples.
>
> >
> > think of the ming dynasty. porcelain pots. no kiln shelves...saggars
>
> Sung pots used saggers. As did climbing kilns. I've seen
> tenmoku teabowls stuck in their saggers at the Idemitsu museum in
> Tokyo.
>
> > glazed, perfect, no snot. no kiln shelves.
>
> The anagama died out and was replaced by more efficient
> climbing kilns. But they were revived in the middle of th 20th
> century in Japan for their fly ash glaze effects. Modern potters
> have the resources, knowledge and flexibility that industrial potters
> of old did not. So they pick their firing according to the effect
> they desire.
> One of the aesthetics I have always been influenced by is
> the upper midwest method of firing in vapor kilns, often in short
> noborigama, This process doesn't aim at heavy or runny ash, but more
> colorful flashing. It was influenced by the work of Mark Pharis and
> Michael Simon at the UofMn and also by the influences of the Yohen
> chamber in Shimaoka's climbing kiln that Randy Johnston came back
> with.
>
> --
> Lee Love in Minneapolis
> http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
>
> "Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97t=
hat is, =3D
"The
> land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
> within itself." -- John O'Donohue
>
--=3D20
Make Good Pots
~Craig
New London MN
http://woodfiredpottery.blogspot.com/
Randall Moody on sat 23 apr 11
On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Lee wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 8:30 AM, Lee wrote:
> >
> http://www.amazon.com/Marguerite-Wildenhain-Bauhaus-Eyewitness-Anthology/=
dp/0976138123
> >
>
>
> I put up the section on the short lives of salt potters and the use of
> salt, lead and cobalt in the slurry. I is by Dean Schwartz. Find
> it as jpg here:
>
>
The average lifespan in 1920 was 54. There was no evidence that the
shortened life span of the potters was due to salt, lead and cobalt in the
slurry. In fact since the study was based on church records that wouldn't
list the cause of death, the assumption by the unnamed student is dubious a=
t
best. There simply isn't enough evidence given in that reference to support
the conclusion that they died due to salt, lead and cobalt in the slurry.
--
Randall in Atlanta
http://wrandallmoody.com
Lee on sat 23 apr 11
On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 6:23 AM, Craig Edwards wr=
=3D
ote:
.
Craig, It is a huge book and includes a history of German
pottery. Only has an index of names, so hard to find things. I'll
bring it the next time I visit.
http://www.amazon.com/Marguerite-Wildenhain-Bauhaus-Eyewitness-Anthology/dp=
=3D
/0976138123
--
=3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D9=
7that is, =3D
"The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Craig Edwards on sat 23 apr 11
Lee; That would be good. I have done considerable research on German salt
glaze. This is the first time I have heard of mixing lead and salt together
as a common practice.
My wife studied with Marguerite. I didn't know that she was into salt glaze=
=3D
.
I quess you learn something new all the time.
Cheers,
Make Good Pots
~Craig
New London MN
http://woodfiredpottery.blogspot.com/
On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 11:03 PM, Lee wrote:
> Craig,
>
> Marguerite Wildenhain and the Bauhaus, edited by Dean Schwartz.
> http://www.southbearpress.org/Home.html
>
> I can lend it to you. It is a fat volume. I will look up the
> passage and share it later.
>
> It is one of those things like copper: folks think salt
> firing and copper glazes are dangerous, not remembering that in both
> cases, it is their association with lead that made them dangerous, and
> not salt firing or copper by themselves.
>
>
> --
> Lee Love in Minneapolis
> http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
>
> "Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97t=
hat is, =3D
"The
> land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
> within itself." -- John O'Donohue
>
--
Lee on sat 23 apr 11
http://www.amazon.com/Marguerite-Wildenhain-Bauhaus-Eyewitness-Anthology/d=
=3D
p/0976138123
What is really interesting about the account, is that the researchers
examined church records to find the death notices of potters. They
found that they died at a relatively early age, from lead poisoning.
--
=3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D9=
7that is, =3D
"The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Lee on sat 23 apr 11
On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 8:30 AM, Lee wrote:
> =3DA0http://www.amazon.com/Marguerite-Wildenhain-Bauhaus-Eyewitness-Antho=
lo=3D
gy/dp/0976138123
>
I put up the section on the short lives of salt potters and the use of
salt, lead and cobalt in the slurry. I is by Dean Schwartz. Find
it as jpg here:
http://www.facebook.com/togeika
Going to NCC to glaze!
--
=3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D9=
7that is, =3D
"The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Ron Roy on sat 23 apr 11
Lee,
You still don't understand this - copper increases the leachability of =3D2=
0
what ever
glaze it is in - it did that with lead glazes and those potters who =3D20
understood this did not use copper in lead glazes.
We have detailed all this in our book - documented and testing results =3D2=
0
included - why not at least try to understand?
RR
Quoting Lee :
> Craig,
>
> Marguerite Wildenhain and the Bauhaus, edited by Dean Schwartz.
> http://www.southbearpress.org/Home.html
>
> I can lend it to you. It is a fat volume. I will look up the
> passage and share it later.
>
> It is one of those things like copper: folks think salt
> firing and copper glazes are dangerous, not remembering that in both
> cases, it is their association with lead that made them dangerous, and
> not salt firing or copper by themselves.
>
>
> --
> =3DC2=3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
> http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
>
> =3DC2=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DC3=3DB3g ar chul an tI=3DE2=3D80=3D94tIr dlainn=
trina ch=3DC3=3DA9=3D
ile"=3DE2=3D80=3D94that is, "The
> land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
> within itself." -- John O'Donohue
>
Craig Edwards on sun 24 apr 11
Lee; If the average age that they died was 37, they were living longer than
most, during that time period. The 1600's Germany had the Thirty Years War,
which was devastating to say the least. Most government and parish records
were destroyed. Between 1880-1913 there were several books written to try
and correct many misstatements about where and how pots were made and which
claims to proto sites were valid. If you can read German, you can read unti=
=3D
l
the cows come home.
Burgel's records start in about 1660 after the thirty year war. Earlier
records were lost to fire. If I remember right the potters guild listed
about 10 master potters,not many, the number was to grow to somewhere in
the 40's (?)in the next 100 years. There have been shards of lead glazed
earthen ware and salt glazed stoneware found that would validate their clai=
=3D
m
to be a proto site.
You are right about the smalt being blown into the kiln.There are pieces an=
=3D
d
shards that show that. Whether or not the potters died from lead poisoning
I think is conjecture. Most old church records that I have seen are vague,
old age covers almost everything, that wasn't a traumatic incident.
Thanks for jarring my memory of so long ago. I first went to Hohr- Grenz
-Hausen in 1966-67. I haven't been back for twenty some years. Most of th=
=3D
e
potters that were inspirational, were old then and have long since passed. =
=3D
I
got some of their pots out, and recalled the fond memory's. I haven't read
German in years and it's startling to me that I still can.
Back to work... typing doesn't make the pots
Make Good Pots
~Craig
New London MN
http://woodfiredpottery.blogspot.com/
On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 10:42 AM, Lee wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 8:30 AM, Lee wrote:
> >
> http://www.amazon.com/Marguerite-Wildenhain-Bauhaus-Eyewitness-Anthology/=
=3D
dp/0976138123
> >
>
>
> I put up the section on the short lives of salt potters and the use of
> salt, lead and cobalt in the slurry. I is by Dean Schwartz. Find
> it as jpg here:
>
> http://www.facebook.com/togeika
>
> Going to NCC to glaze!
>
> --
> Lee Love in Minneapolis
> http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
>
> "Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97t=
hat is, =3D
"The
> land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
> within itself." -- John O'Donohue
>
--=3D20
Make Good Pots
~Craig
New London MN
http://woodfiredpottery.blogspot.com/
Lee on sun 24 apr 11
On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 12:06 AM, Craig Edwards w=
=3D
rote:
> Lee; If the average age that they died was 37,
It was comparatively short life-span compared to the journeymen who
were not allowed to salt/lead the kilns. They did a comparative study
of the death notices and only the Master Potters died this young.
They also found reports of the symptoms of lead poisioning, which
start with a numbness in the hands. I wrote Dean. I am hoping he
can point to the orginal study. It may be in German.
> Thanks for jarring my memory of so long ago. I first went to Hohr- Grenz
> -Hausen =3DA0in 1966-67.
You'll enjoy the book. There are more interesting things about
pottery and the guild system. I wish it had a better index.
A potter from Dresden will be at Mungyeong. My friend
Gordon Granz who was at Shimaokas for a couple months just before the
end of my apprenticeship, was from near Dresden. I am hoping to hear
news of Gordon.
Gordon studied at a State sponsored school/pottery when the
area was still E. Germany, starting at the age of 14. After his
studies, he worked at the school. When the wall fell, the school
closed and he became an independent potter. He was able to buy
equipment and materials from the school, and bought a nice old stone
cottage before land prices soared and built his studio there.
He said there are many old abandoned salt anagamas in
his neighborhood. One of his friends, from a pottery family, fires
one. Before he came to Japan, Gordon built a noborigama from looking
at diagrams of Shimaoka's kiln. In Mashiko, he studied with the
Master Kiln Builder and was planning on building a better noborigama
when he got back home. (He got fed up with the slow pace of study at
Shimaokas and asked to leave to study with the kiln builder. He was a
guest and not an apprentice, so it was allowed. It was a good
experience for me at the end of the apprenticeship, and helped me
realize how hard study was there. I sure would like to visit Gordon
in Germany.
--
=3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D9=
7that is, =3D
"The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
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