David Finkelnburg on thu 5 may 11
Randy,
How can I say this? It's you. :-)
Slow the wheel down.
Study your current bowl throwing. The process that produces your best
9-pound bowl is precisely the process you must use, though possibly even a
little better, to make larger bowls.
Concentrate on the fundamentals--center well, open evenly, throw as dr=
y
as you can (the wetter you throw the more quickly you must work large
pieces), leave enough support near the foot to carry the weight of the wall=
s
as the bowl is opened out.
Try throwing large early in the session while you are fresh and
focused.
Throw a 25-pound bowl. It can surprise you how much easier it is to
throw 15 pounds after that. Besides, you may come out with a bread bowl
large enough for an 8-loaf batch!
Good potting,
Dave Finkelnburg
http://www.mattanddavesclays.com
-----------------------------
On Thu, 5 May 2011 18:04:56 -0400, Randy McC anmcc@MSN.COM> wrote:
I can throw 8 and 9 lb bowls with no problem but when I go to 12 to 15lbs
I have a hard time keeping them from flopping.
Any suggestions. Is it me or the clay?
Larry Andre on thu 5 may 11
Your suggestions are right on, keeping the clay dry is quite important, and
if you can use very firm clay to start all the better. When I throw large
shapes with dry clay and little or no water I use two stones that are flat
gauged to the size of the vessel being thrown. The stones are generally 2-3
inches across and about 1/2 inch thick with rounded corners, I keep the
stone on the outside as flat as possible and the one on the inside with a
little edge. Since you are not using your fingers you do not need to push a=
s
hard and you let the stones do the work. Next if the work gets out of round
by holding the stones stationary for several slow revolutions to take the
out of round away then proceed to move to the top of the pot. I learned thi=
s
technique from Michael Frimkess who throws completely dry, not one drop of
water and using clay that you can barely indent with your thumb. My musings
take it for what it is worth. Larry
-----Original Message-----
From: James Freeman
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 6:41 PM
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Bigger bowls?
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 6:04 PM, Randy McC wrote:
I can throw 8 and 9 lb bowls with no problem but when I go to 12 to 15lbs I
have a hard time keeping them from flopping.
Any suggestions. Is it me or the clay?
Randy...
It's likely just too much water in the clay. For any type of large pot
(save, perhaps, coupe plates), You need to work fairly dry in order for the
clay to have enough structural strength to support it's own weight once you
start to flare it out materially beyond the base.
When I throw large bowls or heavily cantilevered vase forms, I use all the
water I want in centering and raising the walls, but that is the last water
I will use. Once the walls are up (vertical, or nearly so, even for bowls)=
,
I clean all of the sloppy clay yuckus (technical term!) from the cylinder
wall with opposing ribs inside and out. For small to medium bowls or vases=
,
say 5 or 6 pounds or less, I begin to flare and shape the clay cylinder
immediately, though with the medium sized pieces that will be heavily
flared, I will partially dry the clay near the base in stages as I am
bellying out the form.
For large cantilevered forms, after raising and cleaning the cylinder, and
perhaps after very minor and initial bellying, I either let the piece rest
and stiffen for several hours, or, more typically, I dry it rather
substantially with a torch or weed burner, depending on size. After the
piece has firmed up, the serious bellying of the form begins. I typically
employ a yellow Sherrill gummy rib on the inside and a flexible steel rib o=
n
the outside (for control). If the piece has a textured outer surface, I of
course do all shaping from the inside, with no control at all on the
outside. Again, I often dry the piece more and more, in stages, as shaping
progresses.
I personally like completely convex vessels, and do not like concavities in
the external profile of the piece (strictly personal aesthetic preference).
One thing I have found, especially with larger forms, is that during shapin=
g
of the upper areas of the form, the tremendous torque produced by the drag
created in trying to move the now somewhat stiff clay often causes the once
convex bottom portion of the vessel to "pull in", either losing some of the
pleasing convexity or, in some cases, actually becoming concave. If this i=
s
an issue, I will reshape the bottom portion to the desired line, then torch
it all the way to soft leather hard before continuing on to the still
relatively soft top.
I have some medium (6 pound) and large (10 pound) bowls and platters in the
bisque kiln as we speak. The 10 pound bowls are about 6 1/2 inches tall,
including the substantial foot ring, and about 18 inches in diameter,
cantilevered over a 4 1/2" or so foot. The foot was not carved and trimmed
to that size, but was thrown to near final size before shaping the bowl, an=
d
very little trimming was done to the outside of the foot, and almost none t=
o
the body of the bowl. Even with that amount of cantilever, there was no
flopping or sagging of the walls over the foot, and this was due not to
skill, but merely to relatively dry clay. I have employed this technique
successfully to cantilevered bowls and vases up to about 25 pounds.
The same technique holds the secret to throwing very thin, regardless of
size. I have bowls to 10 or so inches in diameter and vases about 9 or 10
inches high with walls thrown to about 1/16" thickness, again, made possibl=
e
by shaping stiffer clay without water. My oft repeated maxim is that in
throwing, water is the enemy. Work as dry as you possibly can when
throwing, and flopping and collapsing will cease to be an issue. You can
get away with lots of things when working small, or thick, or small and
thick, that will not fly when the scale is increased. (Note too that I am
not talking about dry throwing, which is a skill in itself. I employ
ordinary, soft clay, and center and raise the walls with plenty of water. I=
t
is only the shaping that is done dry.)
Others will have better ideas and advice, but this technique works for me.
All the best.
...James
James Freeman
"...outsider artists, caught in the bog of their own consciousness, too
preciously idiosyncratic to be taken seriously."
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice. I should
not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
Randy McC on thu 5 may 11
I can throw 8 and 9 lb bowls with no problem but when I go to 12 to 15lbs I=
=3D
have a hard time keeping them from flopping.
=3D20
Any suggestions. Is it me or the clay?
Randy
=3D
pdp1 on thu 5 may 11
Clay must be very well wedged of course...homogeneous and workable...and on
the dry side if possible far as mix.
Keep it less wet than what a smaller Bowl might usualy be, or, Rib well
inside and out, to remove the slurry and wetness, before coaxing it out to
the final diameter.
Use a Rib to coax the Walls out, small increases in many passes.
It only takes a little longer ( well, maybe twice or three or five times as
lone, anyway ) to make a large or larger Bowl than a smaller to medium siz=
e
one, but the larger ones as you are finding, are less forgiving and will
resent being pushed out too fast or too fast or too much at a time, as well
as suffering "the Flops" if too wet of Clay.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy McC"
I can throw 8 and 9 lb bowls with no problem but when I go to 12 to 15lbs I
have a hard time keeping them from flopping.
Any suggestions. Is it me or the clay?
Randy
=3D
James Freeman on thu 5 may 11
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 6:04 PM, Randy McC wrote:
I can throw 8 and 9 lb bowls with no problem but when I go to 12 to 15lbs I
have a hard time keeping them from flopping.
Any suggestions. Is it me or the clay?
Randy...
It's likely just too much water in the clay. For any type of large pot
(save, perhaps, coupe plates), You need to work fairly dry in order for the
clay to have enough structural strength to support it's own weight once you
start to flare it out materially beyond the base.
When I throw large bowls or heavily cantilevered vase forms, I use all the
water I want in centering and raising the walls, but that is the last water
I will use. Once the walls are up (vertical, or nearly so, even for bowls)=
,
I clean all of the sloppy clay yuckus (technical term!) from the cylinder
wall with opposing ribs inside and out. For small to medium bowls or vases=
,
say 5 or 6 pounds or less, I begin to flare and shape the clay cylinder
immediately, though with the medium sized pieces that will be heavily
flared, I will partially dry the clay near the base in stages as I am
bellying out the form.
For large cantilevered forms, after raising and cleaning the cylinder, and
perhaps after very minor and initial bellying, I either let the piece rest
and stiffen for several hours, or, more typically, I dry it rather
substantially with a torch or weed burner, depending on size. After the
piece has firmed up, the serious bellying of the form begins. I typically
employ a yellow Sherrill gummy rib on the inside and a flexible steel rib o=
n
the outside (for control). If the piece has a textured outer surface, I of
course do all shaping from the inside, with no control at all on the
outside. Again, I often dry the piece more and more, in stages, as shaping
progresses.
I personally like completely convex vessels, and do not like concavities in
the external profile of the piece (strictly personal aesthetic preference).
One thing I have found, especially with larger forms, is that during shapin=
g
of the upper areas of the form, the tremendous torque produced by the drag
created in trying to move the now somewhat stiff clay often causes the once
convex bottom portion of the vessel to "pull in", either losing some of the
pleasing convexity or, in some cases, actually becoming concave. If this i=
s
an issue, I will reshape the bottom portion to the desired line, then torch
it all the way to soft leather hard before continuing on to the still
relatively soft top.
I have some medium (6 pound) and large (10 pound) bowls and platters in the
bisque kiln as we speak. The 10 pound bowls are about 6 1/2 inches tall,
including the substantial foot ring, and about 18 inches in diameter,
cantilevered over a 4 1/2" or so foot. The foot was not carved and trimmed
to that size, but was thrown to near final size before shaping the bowl, an=
d
very little trimming was done to the outside of the foot, and almost none t=
o
the body of the bowl. Even with that amount of cantilever, there was no
flopping or sagging of the walls over the foot, and this was due not to
skill, but merely to relatively dry clay. I have employed this technique
successfully to cantilevered bowls and vases up to about 25 pounds.
The same technique holds the secret to throwing very thin, regardless of
size. I have bowls to 10 or so inches in diameter and vases about 9 or 10
inches high with walls thrown to about 1/16" thickness, again, made possibl=
e
by shaping stiffer clay without water. My oft repeated maxim is that in
throwing, water is the enemy. Work as dry as you possibly can when
throwing, and flopping and collapsing will cease to be an issue. You can
get away with lots of things when working small, or thick, or small and
thick, that will not fly when the scale is increased. (Note too that I am
not talking about dry throwing, which is a skill in itself. I employ
ordinary, soft clay, and center and raise the walls with plenty of water. I=
t
is only the shaping that is done dry.)
Others will have better ideas and advice, but this technique works for me.
All the best.
...James
James Freeman
"...outsider artists, caught in the bog of their own consciousness, too
preciously idiosyncratic to be taken seriously."
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice. I should
not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
Susan Fox Hirschmann on fri 6 may 11
I approached throwing bigger the way you would going to a gym and lifting w=
=3D
eights. You do not go in and bench 25 lb til you have trained yourself to w=
=3D
ork up to it. Warm ups are best.
Smaller weights to start. Build your muscles,., as you would build your tec=
=3D
hnique on the wheel by increments.=3DA0 Over a few weeks.
If you are already adept at=3DA0 8 lb....move up to 9 lb for a few bowls. T=
he=3D
n move up to 10 lb for a few bowls.
As Dave says, keep it centered. Like keeping all about you centered and fai=
=3D
rly dry.
If things get too wet during the process....leave it for a hour and go back=
=3D
to it...letting it dry out a bit (if you think that particular piece "has =
=3D
hope!")
Sometimes I will put a fan on a piece, on low for 10-15 min, to dry out abi=
=3D
t and then go back to it.
Importance of well de aired clay cannot be over stressed.=3DA0 Start as rou=
nd=3D
as possible...will make centering easier.=3DA0=3D20
AM;s are best for bigger pieces, it seems, but I always do a warm up piece,=
=3D
sort of like a gym work out (guess you can tell I also have a background i=
=3D
n personal training!?)
Move up gradually, and before you know it, a 20-25 lb bowl will be a piece =
=3D
a cake!
If you can get yourself a couple of private lessons, also, from one that th=
=3D
rows bigger bowls, this can help put you over the hump faster.=3DA0 Visual =
le=3D
ssons are often so much better than all the words that we can write to you!
Best of luck.
Susan
susan fox hirschmann
www.potteryart.biz
--- On Fri, 5/6/11, David Finkelnburg wrote:
From: David Finkelnburg
Subject: Re: Bigger bowls?
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Date: Friday, May 6, 2011, 1:49 AM
Randy,
=3DA0 =3DA0 How can I say this?=3DA0 It's you.=3DA0 :-)
=3DA0 =3DA0 Slow the wheel down.
=3DA0 =3DA0 Study your current bowl throwing. The process that produces you=
r be=3D
st
9-pound bowl is precisely the process you must use, though possibly even a
little better, to make larger bowls.
=3DA0 =3DA0 Concentrate on the fundamentals--center well, open evenly, thro=
w=3DA0=3D
as dry
as you can (the wetter you throw the more quickly you must work large
pieces), leave enough support near the foot to carry the weight of the wall=
=3D
s
as the bowl is opened out.
=3DA0 =3DA0 Try throwing large early in the session while you are fresh and
focused.
=3DA0 =3DA0 Throw a 25-pound bowl. It can surprise you how much easier it i=
s to
throw 15 pounds after that.=3DA0 Besides, you may come out with a bread bow=
l
large enough for an 8-loaf batch!
=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0=3DA0=3DA0Good potting,
=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 Dave Finkelnburg
=3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 http://www.mattanddavesclay=
s.com
-----------------------------
On Thu, 5 May 2011 18:04:56 -0400, Randy McC anmcc@MSN.COM> wrote:
I can throw 8 and 9 lb bowls with no problem but when I go to 12 to 15lbs
I=3DA0 have a hard time keeping them from flopping.
Any suggestions.=3DA0 Is it me or the clay?
Steve Mills on fri 6 may 11
Throw very slowly, leaving a greater amount of clay supporting the evolving=
s=3D
hape, and only bring it out to its final diameter at the last minute.=3D20
It is sometimes a good idea to firm it up a little with a weed burner at th=
e=3D
half way stage.=3D20
Throwing 20 to 50lbs requires a very different technique to 8 to 10lbs
Steve M
Steve Mills
Bath
UK
www.mudslinger.me.uk
Sent from my Ipod touch
On 5 May 2011, at 23:04, Randy McC wrote:
> I can throw 8 and 9 lb bowls with no problem but when I go to 12 to 15lbs=
I=3D
have a hard time keeping them from flopping.
>=3D20
> Any suggestions. Is it me or the clay?
>=3D20
> Randy
>=3D20
Dinah Snipes Steveni on fri 6 may 11
Hi Randy
I find if I pull up maybe 2 or 3 times at first. Leaving a thickish wall. C=
hamois off and level the rim. Remove any slip off the walls. Let the piece =
dry overnight if needs be, and then finish it off the height and thickness.=
Keep an eye on the drying rate. I don't wire it off until it's complete. I=
throw 13-15lbs + of quite soft clay. Some folks will suggest a lazy flame/=
heat gun etc to help dry if you want to keep going in one go. That's a bit =
fraught and somewhat self-consciously dangerous until you get used to that =
method. I throw on removeable batts and just know that I've got *unfinishe=
d* business the next day.
Attached bowls are 13" diameter.
All the best.
Dinah
Mount Vernon, WA.
www.dinahsnipessteveni.com
www.dinahsnipessteveni.wordpress.com
"To obtain a certain thing, you have to become a certain person."
Zen Buddhist saying
Jim Willett on sat 7 may 11
Hey Randy,
Here's a video of Cindy throwing approximately 30 pound bowl. Not a lot o=
=3D
f water.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3DWWDuc4cGDfQ=3D20
Jim Willett
Out of the Fire Studio
Edmonton
www.outofthefirestudio.com
www.theclayteacher.com
Dinah Snipes Steveni on sat 7 may 11
Jim/Cindy and Clay Art List
Jim: Wow! Thanks! I watched Cindy Clarke's large bowl video a couple of tim=
=3D
es and then the link to Large Plate. Golly, you folks are utterly generous.=
=3D
I just don't believe it. Amazing tips borne of your skill and generosity. =
=3D
I don't own The Perfect Profile Rib -- yet - but will order it once I'm off=
=3D
studio laptop. (My stupid bloody Sony Vaio purchase with stupid bloody Vis=
=3D
ta -- realized too stupidly bloody late; but... a good interim studio whee=
=3D
ze.) I used a bunch of unsuitably small ribs to improvise, and finally in d=
=3D
esperation slipped down left forearm to open out big bowls. NEVER been able=
=3D
to throw as big and as nice a bowl as I have today after watching CC from =
=3D
Out of The Fire Studio oop north in Canada. NEVER. I will always keep a nat=
=3D
ural sponge in my right hand too. What a revelation. So many excellent tips=
=3D
from Clay art List too. I'd never paid much mind to throwing with slippy w=
=3D
ater instead of *fresh* water in the bowl. I'm not obsessive about the bowl=
=3D
, it sits there, gets refilled as needed. But today swiped up slip from spl=
=3D
ash pan. Excellent. Thanks all. But sorry -- and my post too -- you poster=
=3D
s on Bigger Bowls, a picture is worth a thousand words. Don't be proud just=
=3D
go have a look. Cindy rocks it.
Very nice results of recent ^6 firing and glazes from M^6G and using curren=
=3D
t firing schedule for semi-matte glazes which is posted on the mastering gl=
=3D
azes website. This is for my Farmers' Market Ware. Easy, predictable, safe=
=3D
. Thank you RR and JH. Lots of lovely combos especially layering. Thanks fo=
=3D
r illustrating that tip. Also used glazes from Bailey, a UK potter from his=
=3D
^6G book. Lots of great possibilites on the three bodies I use.
When knocking up balls for work yesterday I spotted -- thank the kiln gods =
=3D
-- something slightly poking out which turned out to be an alarmingly large=
=3D
bit of triangularly shaped metal shaped like a prop off a model airplane e=
=3D
mbedded in the bag I'd just unwrapped. Chills up spine as I realized how cl=
=3D
ose I was to.... Potting for 40+ years. That was a first. Lots of little gr=
=3D
avelly bits easily snicked out with potter's pin on the odd occasion, but t=
=3D
his was definitely chilling. S*** happens as the Buddhists say.
It's been raining up here on the Upper Left Side for days and days and days=
=3D
. Don't let The Seattle NCECA Climate Apologists sway you. Bring an umbrell=
=3D
a. You've been advised. I turned off central heating on May Day, but I've l=
=3D
it a fire to maintain cozy atmosphere in lounge for animals and myself on s=
=3D
everal nights now if I haven't retreated to bed for warmth. Dia-bloody-boli=
=3D
cal. Our last frost free date is actually May 8. Could that possibly be tom=
=3D
orrow? There's still snow in the hills. I know others have similar stories.
Dinah
Mount Vernon, WA.=3D20
www.dinahsnipessteveni.com
www.dinahsnipessteveni.wordpress.com
"To obtain a certain thing, you have to become a certain person."
Zen Buddhist saying
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