Jim and Judith Enright on mon 19 jan 98
Hi, all. I just received the latest Sundance catalog and was stunned to
find a set of four basic, mono-colored 14-oz earthenware mugs along with a
simple display tray for sale at $135. Another offering in the same catalog
consists of 4 terra cotta glazed in black and white (spotty brush work,
too) for $125. Does anyone know what how catalogs price their stuff?
Also, an art league gallery which carries some of my work has raised the
commission for all artists from 35% to 60%. This is in addition to the
annual membership fees one pays. Is this reasonable? I find myself
reluctant to raise my prices because I don't want to rip off the consumer
in an effort to make a profit. Of course, I can take my work elsewhere.
Any comments from fellow Clayarters?
Judith Enright @ Black Leopard Clayware
Elizabeth A. Ringus on tue 20 jan 98
Judith, In my opinion any gallery or craft center that charges more than 50%
commission is out of line! If they need to increase that much, I would be
looking at the way they conduct business - and thinking that I should pull out
before they close (due to mismanagement). Without the artist, they would have
no business.
Liz in "tropical" as in RAIN FOREST , SC
Jim and Judith Enright wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Hi, all. I just received the latest Sundance catalog and was stunned to
> find a set of four basic, mono-colored 14-oz earthenware mugs along with a
> simple display tray for sale at $135. Another offering in the same catalog
> consists of 4 terra cotta glazed in black and white (spotty brush work,
> too) for $125. Does anyone know what how catalogs price their stuff?
>
> Also, an art league gallery which carries some of my work has raised the
> commission for all artists from 35% to 60%. This is in addition to the
> annual membership fees one pays. Is this reasonable? I find myself
> reluctant to raise my prices because I don't want to rip off the consumer
> in an effort to make a profit. Of course, I can take my work elsewhere.
> Any comments from fellow Clayarters?
>
> Judith Enright @ Black Leopard Clayware
Cindy on tue 20 jan 98
Judith,
Take your work elsewhere. FAST! The standard gallery commission for
consignment sales runs from 30-50% in my area, with 40% being the most
common. No membership fees. Don't know about co-ops, though. Wholesale
agreements generally run 50-50 . . . that's, I think, what's called
keystone pricing.
Consignment is, IMO, a rip-off in any case. You buy the clay, glaze
ingredients, add your time and cost of firing, cost of delivery or
shipping, and what do you get?
You get the privilege of stocking the gallery's shelves for free. If they
sell your work, they may pay you . . . when they're durn good and ready . .
.. if you hassle/beg/threaten them enough. Not saying all consignment
agreements are slow or no pay, but a surprisingly large number turn out
this way.
Just my two cents, and no offense to you consignment gallery owners out
there. After all, between consenting adults, it's certainly none of my
business, and I'm sure most of you pay right on time. The arrangement's
certainly not for me, tho.
As to catalog prices, who knows? They sure sell the stuff high, and they
must sell it, too, because they manage to keep in business. To tell you the
truth, Judith, you can probably name your own price if you find the right
market. Most of us probably tend to undervalue our work. Several reasons
for this, I think.
1.) We want people like us to be able to afford it, and most of us haven't
struck it rich yet. Keep in mind that not everyone is in this situation.
2.) We tend to underestimate what the work costs us to make: i.e., a decent
wage (for a bread winner, at least $20/hr, IMO, at least for my area),
overhead costs, material costs, insurance, propane/electricity, etc.
3.) We tend to price the work according to how well we like it. To a
certain extent, that's okay. It is, at least in a way, art. As such, it
will at times transcend the direct relationship of cost to price detailed
in #2. Still, we must price the work high enough that it will pay its own
way. That is not ripping anyone off--either your customers or your family.
4.) We underestimate the selling power of a statusy (high) price. I have at
least doubled the wholesale price of my pottery since I started, and still
can't keep up with demand. In fact, it's selling faster.
So . . . so much for my tirade for the day. I wish you the best of
success, Judith. Don't undersell yourself.
Cindy in Custer, SD
Valice Raffi on tue 20 jan 98
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Does anyone know what how catalogs price their stuff?
Hi Judith,
I don't have any experience with ceramic or gift catalogs, but I was in the
video business (my former career!), and worked a lot with catalog
companies. In that business, it worked from the other end, that is, retail
prices were set by the video manufacturer (ex: Disney), and the catalog
companies set their discount (off the retail), usually 55%.
So a movie might retail for $19.95, and the customer (catalog company)
would pay $8.97. AND the distributor pays the shipping to the catalog
company, plus waits to be paid (sometimes up to 120 days).
Now, Sundance may add more markup, but using this calculation, the potter
gets $14.06 per mug (for the black & whites) and probably paid shipping.
Hope this helps,
Valice
glad to be outta that one, but miss getting all those videos
the cat lady on tue 20 jan 98
>Also, an art league gallery which carries some of my work has raised the
>commission for all artists from 35% to 60%. This is in addition to the
>annual membership fees one pays. Is this reasonable? I find myself
>reluctant to raise my prices because I don't want to rip off the consumer
>in an effort to make a profit. Of course, I can take my work elsewhere.
>Any comments from fellow Clayarters?
>
You mean the artist only gets 40%???? Geez Louize, wholesale gets the
artist 50% up front! PLUS you pay an annual membership? This is
ludicrous!
My best advise is to pull your stuff and quickly and encourage
the other artists to do likewise. If the gallery thinks they can
get away with this, they will continue to rip off new, unsuspecting
artists.
sam - alias the cat lady
Melbourne, Ontario
SW Ontario CANADA
http://www.geocities.com/paris/3110
Robert Katz on tue 20 jan 98
I think you need to ask WHY are they raising the split - is the rent
increasing ?
Hiring people ( can you barter for a day of you working retail )? Utilities
? The typical split I have found is 50/50 & that seems to be enough of a
share to me. That does seem to be the standard both in N.C. & east Texas.
Vicki Katz
Katz Creek Pottery
10:01 AM 1/19/98 EST, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Hi, all. I just received the latest Sundance catalog and was stunned to
>find a set of four basic, mono-colored 14-oz earthenware mugs along with a
>simple display tray for sale at $135. Another offering in the same catalog
>consists of 4 terra cotta glazed in black and white (spotty brush work,
>too) for $125. Does anyone know what how catalogs price their stuff?
>
>Also, an art league gallery which carries some of my work has raised the
>commission for all artists from 35% to 60%. This is in addition to the
>annual membership fees one pays. Is this reasonable? I find myself
>reluctant to raise my prices because I don't want to rip off the consumer
>in an effort to make a profit. Of course, I can take my work elsewhere.
>Any comments from fellow Clayarters?
>
>Judith Enright @ Black Leopard Clayware
>
WHampton on wed 21 jan 98
I would think that at 60% you could do a lot of marketing yourself and make a
larger profit. 50% is all that I will go along with. Past that point its art
shows, etc.
Good luck
Wendy
Marcia Selsor on wed 21 jan 98
I agree with the cat lady!. Raise your prices, too. You should maintain your
wholesale price and let the retailer cover their new increase. It should not
come out of your pocket. I think it is fair practise for your wholesale price
to remain constant. The store/gallery can possibly get better prices if they
are in a great location like upper Park Avenue compared to Eureka Springs,
Arkansas.
I have a gallery in Jackson Hole and several in Montana and I keep my prices
(which I get) the same. Gallery in Billings is 40% in Jackson it is %50.
Marcia in Montana
the cat lady wrote:
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> >Also, an art league gallery which carries some of my work has raised the
> >commission for all artists from 35% to 60%. This is in addition to the
> >annual membership fees one pays. Is this reasonable? I find myself
> >reluctant to raise my prices because I don't want to rip off the consumer
> >in an effort to make a profit. Of course, I can take my work elsewhere.
> >Any comments from fellow Clayarters?
> >
> You mean the artist only gets 40%???? Geez Louize, wholesale gets the
> artist 50% up front! PLUS you pay an annual membership? This is
> ludicrous!
>
> My best advise is to pull your stuff and quickly and encourage
> the other artists to do likewise. If the gallery thinks they can
> get away with this, they will continue to rip off new, unsuspecting
> artists.
>
> sam - alias the cat lady
> Melbourne, Ontario
> SW Ontario CANADA
> http://www.geocities.com/paris/3110
Tom Wirt on sun 25 jan 98
Hi Group
Seems that the commission range has habitually been 35/65-50/50%
(gallery/artist) depending on the gallery, how well you sell, etc.,
etc.(All have been discussed.
Having been on both sides of the fence (shop and craftsman) I can say the
artist/artisan always seems to feel that they're getting ripped off at
the 50-50 level....and maybe so on a consignment basis. On the other
hand, I can tell you that a shop CANNOT make it profitably at 35/65
unless they have a "hole in their P&L" that is, there is some large
expense such as rent (they own the building), labor (shop owner
contributes their labor for free), no advertising or whatever.
Think about what that shop owner does for you....provides traffic,
constant sales help, advertising, keeps the lights on, showroom floor
space, and MOST OF ALL, allows you to do work instead of selling.
We've run the numbers over and over in different ways and, as Wendy has
mentioned previously, if you factor in lost production time, selling it
yourself or at 50-50 is about a wash, not to mention all the wear and
tear on your pooor little body lugging all those pots around.
SELLING wholesale is the best way to go. You don't stock the retaliers
shelves, they do, through purchases. You get the cash now or in 45 days.
If you "work" the accounts, you will pick up additional sales for the
cost of a phone call or letter. If someone demands consignment, maybe
you should look elsewhere since the only reason someone really consigns
is that they're not sure if the work will sell IN THEIR SHOP. Going to
the wholesale shows is the way to see lots of buyers and the first
question out of your mouth should be, what kind of work do you sell, or
what kind of customers do you have or.....something like that about THEIR
business.
Most wholesale shops now mark up 100% (gives a 50% margin) PLUS shipping.
However, we just ran into a shop that marked or stuff up a whopping
300%....a plate we sold for $8 that was intended to sell for about $16
was marked at $25. I'm not sure at this point how to handle this one and
it got even messier since the customer called us for a retail catalog
which I sent not knowing they'd in the store. This customer was
rightfully put off by the store and the store was miffed at us for
talking to the customer and I'm miffed at the store for the excessive
markeup. (The plate is just a little salad plad 8" diam. $25 geez, no
wonder they haven't been selling our stuff).
Anyway, this is too long but maybe it's another viewpoint.
Tom Wirt
Clay Coyote Pottery
Hutchinson, MN
claypot@hutchtel.net
Wendy Rosen on tue 27 jan 98
Tom Wirt states "Galleries markup 100%" According to our last
retailers survey galleries multiply the wholesale price by 2.3-2.5 range.
This might seem high compared to the local Halmark store... but most
galleries and shops have a slower rate of sale per piece... which
translates into more epensive shelf space.
If more artists would only write down their own expenses of selling
their work... they'd quickly realize that selling through a gallery is a
good deal.
I only know of about 2 dozen shows in the US where artists can count on
$7-8,000 in sales... and that's what it takes to leave your studio and go
on the road for 5 or 6 days. You might be able to get by with lower sales
if you have lots of elves working back at the studio and you can justify
your time in the "sales and marketing" side of your business instead of the
creative side.
Use your time wisely, protect your studio time! Most artists with
a long track record find it much more profitable to open up their own
studio/gallery combination rather than doing retail shows... this seems to
be the best of both worlds.
Best Wishes,
Wendy
*******************************************
Wendy Rosen
The Rosen Group
Niche & AmericanStyle Magazines
http://americanstyle.com
The Buyers Markets of American Craft
http://www.rosengrp.com
http://www.americancraft.com
3000 Chestnut Ave #304 Baltimore, MD 21211
Voice: 410/889-3093 Fax: 410/243-7089
*******************************************
Wendy Rosen on thu 29 jan 98
Carol,
My book Crafting As a Business has a "Creative Visualization
Exercise" to help you identify your customer. The whole thing takes about
20 minutes and you'll need a partner... I think it's up on the web on our
new site http://americancraft.com
AmericanStyle commissioned a Beta Research Study to analyze our
readership... here are the results... 78% female, age 35-54, (HHI)
Household Income $100,000
Favorite arts destinations... 1.Santa Fe, 2. Seattle, 3. New York (In THAT
order!)
(It's obvious the impact that glass had made in our marketplace.)
About the "paid" consultant... trash that idea! I'm of the firm
belief that the defination of a consultant is any guy/woman more than 100
miles from home... "asks the client for their watch and tells thek what
time it is"!!!
Our office will gladly provide you with a list of "mentors" that
live near you. My suggestion is that you pay them what people "pay" me for
advice-- LUNCH!!! and no more!
I've been in business for myself for more than 25 years... and if
there's one thing I've learned... there is no magic formula, single piece
of advice, etc... you'll have to do what all of us do... try and fail, try
and succeed one little step at a time. The most important thing is to
break everything down into little, affordable steps... they you have
lowered your risk and have a higher potential for success.
Email us and ask us to put you on our email newsletter list...
Market Insider. There will be valuable advice, business tips, gossip (and
reminders about our services) arriving one page every two weeks. It's
worth the cost (FREE)...
I'm here if you need me, I'll be at NCECA too. I loved the
Guerilla book... is a great place to start!
Best Wishes,
Wendy
(BTW- you owe me lunch :> )
-------------------------------------------------------------
>Hi Wendy...First of all, let me say that I really enjoy your input to the
>list,
>as well as American Style magazine (I'm a subscriber). I, for one, am a
>sculptor who is just now entering the national market who does not want to do
>shows. After researching the time required and the cost of running a gallery
>or of doing shows, I have decided to work through existing galleries and
>interior designers; I also want to market to corporate art consultants. I am
>working at present with an interior designer in W Hollywood and am contacting
>several in my area of western Colorado. Some of the local designers work for
>clients in Aspen and Telluride.
>
>I should mention that my work is primarily clay or bronze relief wall
>sculptures. I do figurative "Spirit Being" and "Goddess" series as well as
>abstract "Earth Metaphor" sculptures. All of my work in these series is
>designed to impart a calming influence on the interior environment, amidst the
>hecticity of modern life. I am working on a new series of figurative totems
>with various ancient imagery on the surfaces to be cast in bronze.
>
>Anyway, I have a brief question for you as I know you must be very busy. I
>have been reading the Guerilla Marketing Handbook and am developing a
>marketing
>plan. Altho I have known for some time the type of galleries that I want to
>get my work into, I'm trying to get inside the mind of art buyers and art
>collectors. One of the steps in the Handbook is to describe in detail the
>type
>of customer I am targeting. I must say that I don't really know what type of
>person my clinetele would be, other than upscale with disposable income. I'd
>like to know more demographic information about them. Do you know of any
>resources addressing this question? Or any gallery owners who could help me
>understand the mindset of the potential buyer?? I realize that you may
>want to
>see images of my work before answering. I am having them scanned tomorrow and
>could e-mail several of them to give you a flavor of my work.
>
>Just to let you know that I have been doing my homework, I have read "How to
>Survive and Prosper as an Artist" by Caroll Michels and have tried repeatedly
>to contact her by phone in New York. There is no answer and no answering
>machine. She works as an art consultant and I am willing to pay her to
>understand the art market better. I also contacted an art consultant in
>Denver
>named Sue Viders who has some tapes and tools for marketing planning that I am
>going to purchase. However, her immediate reaction when I told her that I do
>figurative and abstract relief wall sculptures was a rather negative
>"Figurative and abstract art are the hardest kind of art to sell." That
>may be
>true...however, my work is very well received and I've sold enough to know
>that
>in the right venue, it will be purchased. I believe very strongly in my work.
>(I've also done two public bronze sculptures and two corporate commissions.)
>So, although her conversations are free (with purchase of tapes, etc), I don't
>think I'll solicit her input again.
>
>I also am a subscriber of Art Calendar for about 2 years and read their stuff
>very carefully.
>
>Please forgive the rambling nature of this post...I would really appreciate
>your input or recommendations regarding other sources that would help to
>understand why people buy art.
>
>Thanks for your time,
>
>Carol Craiglow
>Grand Junciton Colorado
>
>
>PS - I am planning my first nationwide marketing campaign in March. This will
>consist of consecutive mailings of full-color oversized postcards to
>galleries,
>designers and consultants. On the back of the postcards, I will list my
>website (not yet up) along with information on how to see my portfolio. I am
>also considering direct e-mails to galleries (with a prior okay via phone)
>with
>images of my artwork included in the e-mail. I haven't heard of anyone doing
>this. Any thoughts on pros or cons?
>
>PPS - Also, I was very glad to see you mention William Strickland in your
>previous post re: inner city art programs. I have a real desire to give
>something back with my art..and improving the self-esteem of at-risk kids is
>the area in which I want to focus.
>
>
>Wendy Rosen wrote:
>
>> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>>
>> Tom Wirt states "Galleries markup 100%" According to our last
>> retailers survey galleries multiply the wholesale price by 2.3-2.5 range.
>> This might seem high compared to the local Halmark store... but most
>> galleries and shops have a slower rate of sale per piece... which
>> translates into more epensive shelf space.
>> If more artists would only write down their own expenses of selling
>> their work... they'd quickly realize that selling through a gallery is a
>> good deal.
>> I only know of about 2 dozen shows in the US where artists can count on
>> $7-8,000 in sales... and that's what it takes to leave your studio and go
>> on the road for 5 or 6 days. You might be able to get by with lower sales
>> if you have lots of elves working back at the studio and you can justify
>> your time in the "sales and marketing" side of your business instead of the
>> creative side.
>> Use your time wisely, protect your studio time! Most artists with
>> a long track record find it much more profitable to open up their own
>> studio/gallery combination rather than doing retail shows... this seems to
>> be the best of both worlds.
>> Best Wishes,
>> Wendy
>>
>> *******************************************
>> Wendy Rosen
>> The Rosen Group
>> Niche & AmericanStyle Magazines
>> http://americanstyle.com
>> The Buyers Markets of American Craft
>> http://www.rosengrp.com
>> http://www.americancraft.com
>> 3000 Chestnut Ave #304 Baltimore, MD 21211
>> Voice: 410/889-3093 Fax: 410/243-7089
>> *******************************************
*******************************************
Wendy Rosen
The Rosen Group
Niche & AmericanStyle Magazines
http://americanstyle.com
The Buyers Markets of American Craft
http://www.rosengrp.com
http://www.americancraft.com
3000 Chestnut Ave #304 Baltimore, MD 21211
Voice: 410/889-3093 Fax: 410/243-7089
*******************************************
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