David Finkelnburg on sun 15 may 11
Vince,
I know you mean well, but I am very, very disappointed that you would
dignify one more vitriolic, bitter, twisted (and totally undeserved)
personal attack by John Britt on two artists who are also very fine people
and generous contributors to Clayart. I cannot disagree more strongly with
your statement that recipes from Ron Roy and John Hesselberth's book should
be posted.
Britt has authored an excellent collection of, almost entirely, other
people's glaze recipes. He grouped the recipes pretty logically, explained
his logic well, and because the book is written for high fire, included
informative firing schedules.
Roy and Hesselberth researched, created (and in some cases paid
for extensive testing of in analytical labs) a series of their own glaze
recipes. They present a systematic scientific and chemical approach to
glazes. Their book explains quite clearly how to create cone 6 glazes for
electric kilns from available commercial materials.
To argue that, because of the passage of time, or for any other reason,
others are somehow entitled to the creative work of Hesselberth and Roy is
just plain wrong. As a very talented creative artist yourself, you of all
people should acknowledge that the only individuals who should post the
creative work of those two are those authors themselves.
Btw, Britt also accused you of being too lazy to Google Lisa Orr's
recipes. Like most of us, a lot of adjectives can be applied to you. I've
just never thought of the word lazy as being one of them! :-)
Regards,
Dave Finkelnburg
Stephani Stephenson on sun 15 may 11
Vince wrote : "As an educator, I have absolutely no secrets in the studio=
=3D
,
and I believe
that the free and open exchange of information benefits everyone. "
without wading into the specifics on this one, I would like to point out
that, though many on the list work in and from the collegiate -
educational - studio system , that system is part of a larger picture. W=
=3D
hen
you work as an educator. your livelihood, your salary is derived from th=
=3D
at
work. The vigorous sharing of information is a valued tradition educatio=
=3D
n,
and extends beyond the college studio to the world of workshop and self
education in pottery and ceramics.=3D20
There are, however, other traditions, which i think are not too difficult=
=3D
to
understand, though they have a different take on the subject of sharing.=3D=
20=3D
It is not that one is 'right' or one is 'wrong'.=3D20
one comes from education and the other comes from commerce.
Did you know , in the heyday of American tile, pottery and architectural=3D=
20=3D
ceramics, in the early 20th century that glaze formulas were usually kept=
=3D
under lock and key and were considered proprietary information? why? beca=
=3D
use
small business or large, your entire income depended on producing a
signature, sought after product or line . Glazes could separate you from =
=3D
the
competition. Even if the competition figured out how to mimic your glaze=
=3D
or
style, if you could get a couple years jump on them, it could mean a huge=
=3D
difference in your income or your profit. now , i know, at least when i w=
=3D
as
in school, such topics were considered rather crass compared to the
idealism of total sharing, but when you are in business you do not have t=
=3D
he
luxury of a monthly salary from an institution. Your edge, your quality,=
=3D
your research, your work IS your your income, so I hope there would be a=
=3D
n
understanding of this. the glaze chemists were gold in these companies,=
=3D
and there was even a bit of drama surrounding their movements in the indu=
=3D
stry.=3D20
Even today among tilemakers, who are as supportive a group as you'll ever=
=3D
find in ceramics, i would consider it rude and inappropriate to ask or
demand to know what another tile company's glaze formulas are. not that
materials and processes aren't discussed . people help each other out all=
=3D
the time, but in the business world if you have something going in the wa=
=3D
y
of a hot glaze/clay combo, you tend to keep it close to the vest..it's yo=
=3D
ur
baby, it's your edge. that is just the tradition.
=3D20
Also, the internet brings a new dynamic to the whole concept of 'sharing'=
=3D
.
there's something i can't put my finger on which has to do with respect a=
=3D
nd
i find myself not arriving at bottom line which works for all occasions.
i guess if i were teaching a workshop and had given a packet of info to t=
=3D
he
participants, i would expect the participants to pass along info to
friends, etc, or even post something specific in answer to a question, b=
=3D
ut
i admit , i would feel=3D20
kind of miffed, if someone decided to post the entire packet online. i fe=
=3D
el
if i want to 'out ' the material online that's one thing, for some one
else to take that into their own hands.mmmmmm. can't say it is illegal, b=
=3D
ut
can't deny i wouldn't feel irritated.
Then there is published material and that gets even more mixed. Copyrig=
=3D
hts
exist on work for a reason, freedom to share information common to the
medium also exists for a reason , so it doesn't surprise me we bump head=
=3D
s
on this level.
In this discussion, i find grist for the mill and quite valid points in =
=3D
the
posts from Vince ,John and Dave .
Stephani S>
Gayle Bair on sun 15 may 11
I haven't been following this thread very closely as I am pretty busy but I
do have a few observations.
When anyone write a book, gives workshops or demonstrations etc. they are
deliberately sharing their knowledge, techniques and voluntarily have opene=
d
themselves up for being copied. In spite of any legal ramifications this is
going to happen... it just is!
Now someone could be given a recipe but will they have the understanding
that lies behind it. Is someone going to copy chapters of MC6G and pass tha=
t
around.... I don't think so!
So glaze recipes will be passed around as will techniques. I agree with Dav=
e
and do not have an issue with any author holding title to his/her work. I d=
o
not think Ron and John have to post their recipies.... they are in the book
i own! Anyone who doesn't own the book can go to that place that stores
thousands of books and lends them to the public.... the local library!
Las year in an advanced class I was taking I gave a brief demonstration of
my sgraffito techniques. Nine months later when I returned to that class
there was an explosion of sgraffito pieces. My initial response was shock!!=
!
Then I thought about it.....I gave the workshop willingly and none of the
work was like mine. I then realized I must have done a pretty good job
because there they were.... they got what I had demonstrated and flew with
it! The point to me is when teaching or writing a book etc. you are sharing
your experience, techniques and expertise with the understanding it is goin=
g
to be copied and shared.
Best regards to everyone.
Gayle Bair - back in WA where out of the 6 days I've been back yesterday it
was gloriously sunny for my first day back at our local farmers market! It
started raining again last night.... the webs between my fingers and toes
are starting to reform!;)
On Sun, May 15, 2011 at 8:07 AM, David Finkelnburg
wrote:
> Vince,
> I know you mean well, but I am very, very disappointed that you would
> dignify one more vitriolic, bitter, twisted (and totally undeserved)
> personal attack by John Britt on two artists who are also very fine peopl=
e
> and generous contributors to Clayart. I cannot disagree more strongly wit=
h
> your statement that recipes from Ron Roy and John Hesselberth's book shou=
ld
> be posted.
> Britt has authored an excellent collection of, almost entirely, other
> people's glaze recipes. He grouped the recipes pretty logically, explaine=
d
> his logic well, and because the book is written for high fire, included
> informative firing schedules.
> Roy and Hesselberth researched, created (and in some cases paid
> for extensive testing of in analytical labs) a series of their own glaze
> recipes. They present a systematic scientific and chemical approach to
> glazes. Their book explains quite clearly how to create cone 6 glazes for
> electric kilns from available commercial materials.
> To argue that, because of the passage of time, or for any other reason=
,
> others are somehow entitled to the creative work of Hesselberth and Roy i=
s
> just plain wrong. As a very talented creative artist yourself, you of all
> people should acknowledge that the only individuals who should post the
> creative work of those two are those authors themselves.
> Btw, Britt also accused you of being too lazy to Google Lisa Orr's
> recipes. Like most of us, a lot of adjectives can be applied to you. I've
> just never thought of the word lazy as being one of them! :-)
> Regards,
> Dave Finkelnburg
>
John Britt on sun 15 may 11
David,
You wrote: "I cannot disagree more strongly with
your statement that recipes from Ron Roy and John Hesselberth's book shou=
=3D
ld
be posted." Another case of the effect of the 7 years censorship by Ron J=
=3D
ohn.=3D20
Unfortunately your opinion is wrong and its basis is wrong. There is no=3D2=
0=3D
censorship of glazes on clayart.=3D20
If you ask Ron and John, you will find that they have lifted the ill plac=
=3D
ed ban on=3D20
posting their glazes a long time ago. Everyone is FREE to post them.
Secondly, your analysis of the merits of one book over another as being a=
=3D
basis=3D20
of posting the non-copyrighted materials is incorrect. The merits of a bo=
=3D
ok=3D20
based on your opinion of the scientific or artistic merits of an author i=
=3D
n no way=3D20
effects is the recipes can or will be posted on clayart.
Thirdly, trying to marginalize my book because it contains over 400 recip=
=3D
es by=3D20
claiming that " Roy and Hesselberth researched, created (and in some case=
=3D
s=3D20
paid for extensive testing of in analytical labs) a series of their own g=
=3D
laze."=3D20
(therefore it is in another class) is incorrect. Unfortunately rather th=
=3D
an being a=3D20
factor excluding my book it actually makes them more similar. I did the s=
=3D
ame=3D20
thing. I have paid for extensive testing, and created many recipes throug=
=3D
h=3D20
years of testing ( I can count them if you would like?)
What you are doing is perpetuating censorship and trying to demonize what=
=3D
=3D20
you don't understand.
Sorry your wrong,
John Britt
Vince Pitelka on sun 15 may 11
Dave Finkelnburg wrote:
Vince, I know you mean well, but I am very, very disappointed that you woul=
d
dignify one more vitriolic, bitter, twisted (and totally undeserved)
personal attack by John Britt on two artists who are also very fine people
and generous contributors to Clayart. I cannot disagree more strongly with
your statement that recipes from Ron Roy and John Hesselberth's book should
be posted. Britt has authored an excellent collection of, almost entirely,
other people's glaze recipes. He grouped the recipes pretty logically,
explained his logic well, and because the book is written for high fire,
included informative firing schedules. Roy and Hesselberth researched,
created (and in some cases paid for extensive testing of in analytical labs=
)
a series of their own glaze recipes. They present a systematic scientific
and chemical approach to glazes. Their book explains quite clearly how to
create cone 6 glazes for electric kilns from available commercial materials=
.
Hi Dave -
I have a lot of respect for both Ron Roy and John Hesselberth and the work
they did in researching and writing MC6G. To their credit, they tend to be
diplomatic in their many contributions to Clayart. Their book is wonderful=
.
John Britt's book is wonderful. I did say that John's rant was
over-the-top, so I am not sure how I am dignifying it. I also said that
people would not get much out of the MC6G recipes without reading all of th=
e
theory in the book.
As an educator, I have absolutely no secrets in the studio, and I believe
that the free and open exchange of information benefits everyone. Someone
told me that my online article on terra sigillata is the most
frequently-accessed source on the subject in the world. I could yank it
from the Web and sell the "secret," but it is against my philosophy as both
an educator and an author. I am not saying that as a critique of Ron and
John, but simply as an illustration of the free exchange of information.
At some point those recipes are going to be out there, freely shared, and
the question is, when does that happen? When Ron and John published MC6G,
they asked that the recipes not be published on Clayart. That was a
reasonable request, but how long does it remain in effect? I certainly am
not going to publish them, and I suppose the answer to the question ought t=
o
come from Ron and John. John Britt says that Ron and John lifted the ban
several years ago, and that the recipes had been published in magazines and
on other forums. So this seems to be a moot point.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
John Britt on mon 16 may 11
Stephani,
We don't want to confuse things with the 1900's. As of 2011, there is no=3D=
20=3D
copyrights on recipes. And if you choose to publish your recipes, then th=
=3D
ey are=3D20
fair game.=3D20
It is simple, if you don't want your recipes on clayart don't tell anyone=
=3D
. So if=3D20
you write a book, teach, hand out glaze recipes at a workshop, or post on=
=3D
a=3D20
blog, then they are fair game. (public domain)
So that is one issue which is pretty straight forward.
The next is censoring on clayart. As far as Mel and the powers of the uni=
=3D
verse=3D20
go, you can post any recipes on clayart you want. Especially if they are =
=3D
in a=3D20
publish book. Pretty straight forward.
So post away kids,
Johnbrittpottery.com
Gay Judson on mon 16 may 11
I feel that Ron and John are properly concerned that the wealth of =3D
information on the glazes accompany the glazes as it does in the book. =3D
It is not just the recipes that R&J offer but all the 'how-to' =3D
information that makes the book unique and so helpful. After working =3D
with MC6G glazes/book I find myself wanting more information on recipes =3D
I've been given which offer no guide lines to =3D
mixing/holding/applying/firing. The book is so much more than the =3D
recipe--and that is why it is a shame to pass on ONLY the recipes.=3D20
Gay Judson in San Antonio
On May 15, 2011, at 10:54 PM, Stephani Stephenson wrote:
> Vince wrote : "As an educator, I have absolutely no secrets in the =3D
studio,
> and I believe
> that the free and open exchange of information benefits everyone. "
>=3D20
>=3D20
> Then there is published material and that gets even more mixed. =3D
Copyrights
> exist on work for a reason, freedom to share information common to =3D
the
> medium also exists for a reason , so it doesn't surprise me we bump =3D
heads
> on this level.
> In this discussion, i find grist for the mill and quite valid points =3D
in the
> posts from Vince ,John and Dave .
> Stephani S>
David Finkelnburg on mon 16 may 11
Vince,
We may have to agree that we disagree on this.
You wrote, "....my online article on terra sigillata is the most
frequently-accessed source on the subject in the world...." I am not
surprised that your article is so widely used. Your description of the
process is clear and informative. I have downloaded it myself, thank you
very much. That was for use by others, btw--I am personally allergic to
anything that requires such attention to detail! :-)
You also posted that information...and you have posted a lot of other
good stuff, too...by your choice. You don't accuse generous folks of being
the "glaze police" or otherwise disparage them if they don't post every
recipe they have created.
Obviously I feel very strongly about this. An original glaze recipe is
creative work, and as such should be made public only by, or with the
express consent of, the creator, and then only freely, willingly. No one,
particularly not contributors to this list, should be criticized for how
they choose, or have chosen, to control their own creative work.
Respectfully,
Dave Finkelnburg
http://www.mattanddavesclays.com
Vince Pitelka on mon 16 may 11
I wrote: "As an educator, I have absolutely no secrets in the studio, and I
believe that the free and open exchange of information benefits everyone."
And Stephani Stephenson wrote:
"There are, however, other traditions, which i think are not too difficult
to understand, though they have a different take on the subject of sharing.
It is not that one is 'right' or one is 'wrong". one comes from education
and the other comes from commerce."
Hi Stephani -
I meant my comments only in regard to the good spirit of sharing informatio=
n
for those willing and able to do so. Of course there is a long tradition o=
f
professional craft where the formulas and techniques are carefully-guarded
secrets. For those who have not read it, I recommend "The Arcanum," the
story of the first discovery of true high-fire porcelain by Johann Bottger
in what became the Meissen Porcelain Factory in Germany. It's a true story
of history, but reads like an novel of mystery and intrigue, and talk about
a well-guarded secret! The formula still got out, and quickly spread to
Sevres and many other centers of fine ceramic production.
I certainly do not begrudge a craftsperson who has worked out specific
formulas and techniques and keeps them secret. That is often the basis of
an individual craftsperson's work, and a major part of their marketing
strategy. That is perfectly appropriate.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Vince Pitelka on mon 16 may 11
Dave Finkelnburg wrote:
"Obviously I feel very strongly about this. An original glaze recipe is
creative work, and as such should be made public only by, or with the
express consent of,=3DA0the creator, and then only freely, willingly. No =
=3D
one,
particularly not contributors to this list, should be criticized for how
they choose, or have chosen,=3DA0to control their own creative work."
Hi Dave -=3D20
John and Ron made those recipes public when they published the book. =3D
What
is more public than that? Listen, I am not advocating that John or Ron =3D
or
anyone else post those recipes on Clayart. If John or Ron continued to =3D
ask
people not to post them, I would honor that request, for the simple =3D
reason
that I have a lot of respect for both of them. I am kind of waiting for
them to chime in on this. John Britt said that John and Ron lifted the =3D
ban
on posting the recipes several years ago, and I would like to know if =3D
that
is true. If it is, then we are only discussing hypothetical situations =3D
that
do not apply to MC6G. =3D20
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu=3D20
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Ric Swenson on tue 17 may 11
oh.for god's sake
just share...
afterall,,,,glazes ....'do not travel' anyway....
creative..... shemative...oye
glazes do NOT travel...China or Japan or Georgia to Alaska...just facts....
materials vary....as do people and methods....
accept it.
tang...smamang.....lead or frit?
just color of that time
they did not know lead was a poison
pb
do we? yeah maybe
nothing is really NEW.....
creative is just our own work...it takes a real potter to share their work =
with others....for profit or not
give it up.
he he
ric
----------------------------
http:blog.sina.com.cn/ricswenson
"...then fiery expedition be my wing, ..."
-Wm. Shakespeare, RICHARD III, Act IV Scene III
Richard H. ("Ric") Swenson, Teacher,
Office of International Cooperation and Exchange of Jingdezhen Ceramic Inst=
itute,
TaoYang Road, Eastern Suburb, Jingdezhen City.
JiangXi Province, P.R. of China.
Postal code 333001.
Mobile/cellular phone : 86 13767818872
< RicSwenson0823@hotmail.com>
http://www.jci.jx.cn
> Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 19:17:41 -0500
> From: vpitelka@DTCCOM.NET
> Subject: Re: Tang dynasty glazes--Britt, Pitelka comments
> To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>
> Dave Finkelnburg wrote:
> "Obviously I feel very strongly about this. An original glaze recipe is
> creative work, and as such should be made public only by, or with the
> express consent of, the creator, and then only freely, willingly. No one,
> particularly not contributors to this list, should be criticized for how
> they choose, or have chosen, to control their own creative work."
>
> Hi Dave -
> John and Ron made those recipes public when they published the book. What
> is more public than that? Listen, I am not advocating that John or Ron or
> anyone else post those recipes on Clayart. If John or Ron continued to as=
k
> people not to post them, I would honor that request, for the simple reaso=
n
> that I have a lot of respect for both of them. I am kind of waiting for
> them to chime in on this. John Britt said that John and Ron lifted the ba=
n
> on posting the recipes several years ago, and I would like to know if tha=
t
> is true. If it is, then we are only discussing hypothetical situations th=
at
> do not apply to MC6G.
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Craft
> Tennessee Tech University
> vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
John Britt on tue 17 may 11
David,=3D20=3D20
It is hard to discuss logic with you. If you don't understand simple fact=
=3D
s about=3D20
public domain and posting recipes, then I don't know how to help you.
No matter how many "opinions" people express, how much should, could or=3D2=
0=3D
would you talk about, the fact remains that you can't copyright recipes. =
=3D
(One=3D20
simple reason is the materials we use constantly change so 30 %feldspar i=
=3D
s not=3D20
the same tomorrow. It might me 30.01%) Ask a cookbook person.
I don't care if the work is original or hard or admirable or whatever.=3D20=
=3D
And they lifted the ban. Do I have to find the post for you??
Secondly, if Ron and John would post then the issue would die but they ar=
=3D
e=3D20
passive aggressively staying silent. This is a 9 years issue they they c=
=3D
reated=3D20
and remains theirs to end.
John Britt=3D20
David Finkelnburg on tue 17 may 11
John,
You are absolutely correct when you write, "....you can post any recipe=
=3D
s
on clayart you want. Especially if they are =3D3D
in a=3D3D20
publish book." A person not only can post those recipes, but it is legal to
do so. There is a little more too it, of course. Text from and a link to th=
=3D
e
U.S. Copyright office website is below.
Dave Finkelnburg
http://www.mattanddavesclays.com
"Copyright law does not protect recipes that are mere listings of
ingredients. Nor does it protect other mere listings of ingredients such as
those found in formulas, compounds, or prescriptions. Copyright protection
may, however, extend to substantial literary expression=3D97a description,
explanation, or illustration, for example=3D97that accompanies a recipe or
formula or to a combination of recipes, as in a cookbook."
http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl122.html
C Sullivan on tue 17 may 11
Ah shucks, David . . . this sounds like a "recipe" for greed !!!
When someone or something is truly "great" -- they want others to be great
also. The Universal Whole.
Because they know that if others achieve well, somewhere down the line they
will have something to teach the teacher and all will grow to their maximum
capabilities.
Those who hoard their recipes for profit reasons, are not only limiting
others, but ultimately they are limiting themselves !!!
i.e. -- say, there's a potter in Africa, who has access to a computor ( a
kindly neighbor lends him access) -- but does not have access to the glaze
recipe book in question. Someone kindly posts one of the recipes from said
book online; the aspiring African sees it, uses it, modifies it and comes u=
p
with an exquisite new glaze -- which, (because of the kindnesses shown to
himself), he posts online in order to help others grow.
Now
Said authors of the originating book see the African's post, recognize this
as an exquisite extension of the original and are able to incorporate it
into their knowledge base -- what goes around, comes around.
Many do not buy into this simple theory; they'd rather hoard their
"knowledge" . . . .
Just so there's no question here, i own both books in question. MC6G never
worked for me. I tried and tried to make those recipes work with absolutel=
y
disastrous results every time ! So ! perhaps it's a good thing that these
recipes are not posted online to frustrate other aspiring potters !!!
Hugs
Chae
On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 5:41 AM, John Britt wro=
te:
> David,
>
> It is hard to discuss logic with you. If you don't understand simple fact=
s
> about
> public domain and posting recipes, then I don't know how to help you.
>
> No matter how many "opinions" people express, how much should, could or
> would you talk about, the fact remains that you can't copyright recipes.
> (One
> simple reason is the materials we use constantly change so 30 %feldspar i=
s
> not
> the same tomorrow. It might me 30.01%) Ask a cookbook person.
>
> I don't care if the work is original or hard or admirable or whatever.
>
> And they lifted the ban. Do I have to find the post for you??
>
> Secondly, if Ron and John would post then the issue would die but they ar=
e
> passive aggressively staying silent. This is a 9 years issue they they
> created
> and remains theirs to end.
>
> John Britt
>
John Britt on tue 17 may 11
Dave,
I usually don=3D92t toot my own horn but after your insinuation that my boo=
=3D
k sucks=3D20
because it is:
=3D93an excellent collection of, almost entirely, other
people's glaze recipes. He grouped the recipes pretty logically, explaine=
=3D
d
his logic well, and because the book is written for high fire, included
informative firing schedules.=3D20
While Ron =3D93Roy and Hesselberth researched, created (and in some cases p=
=3D
aid
for extensive testing of in analytical labs) a series of their own glaze
recipes. =3D93
Implying that I didn=3D92t =3D93create or test=3D94 my own recipes.
Since everything else you said in that post was proven wrong, I thought I=
=3D
=3D20
would make it a clean sweep and show you how wrong you were on this count=
=3D
=3D20
too.
First of all my book contains almost 400 recipes, not merely 12 or so. Th=
=3D
at is=3D20
the point of the book. There are thousands of recipes out there and let=3D9=
2=3D
s=3D20
compare and contrast.
Secondly, the recipes that are most certainly mine include, but are not l=
=3D
imited=3D20
to: John=3D92s Red, John=3D92s Oribe, Rolaids Yellow (which is one of 8 rec=
ip=3D
es from an=3D20
excellent article in Ceramics Monthly June/July/ August 2001 and is poste=
=3D
d on=3D20
my website: http://johnbrittpottery.com/writings/articles/local-materials=
=3D
/ ),=3D20
John=3D92s Goldstone, John=3D92s Metallic, Rotten Spot, John=3D92s 4, John=
=3D92s =3D
28, John=3D92s 3=3D20
(Which come from an article on Oil Spots in Ceramics Monthly June/July/Au=
=3D
gust=3D20
2002 =3D96 a later version of which is posted on my website with John=3D92s=
S=3D
G-12) and=3D20
Sam=3D92s Satin which I worked with Sam Clarkson on for many months but use=
=3D
d his=3D20
name because of the image he submitted on page 32 and 67.(it keeps things=
=3D
=3D20
consistent) Etc.=3D20
Thirdly, it depends on how you define =3D93created a recipe=3D94. For insta=
nc=3D
e I could=3D20
take a recipe like Tony Hansen=3D92s 5 x 20 and add some talc and come up w=
=3D
ith a=3D20
book. If that is creating and testing then I am in.
If you turn to page 138 =3D96 139 you will see a series of tiles with John=
=3D92=3D
s=3D20
Goldstone, varying iron and frits. I assure you that for those 8 tiles th=
=3D
ere are=3D20
800 from that series that didn=3D92t make it into the book. Those are all s=
=3D
eparate=3D20
glazes, which I could have named. Or on page 66-67 you see tiles of Pinne=
=3D
ll=3D20
Celadon with feldspar, kaolin or clay variations. Each of those is a larg=
=3D
e series.=3D20
Or on page 146 you see Helmar Slip runs in a soda kiln. But each test ser=
=3D
ies=3D20
was in soda, salt and wood and even wood/salt. There are a bunch in the M=
=3D
att=3D20
Glaze section too. So I think you see the point, that I too =3D93created an=
=3D
d tested=3D94=3D20
many glazes but I like to keep the original person=3D92s name with the glaz=
=3D
e to keep=3D20
continuity.=3D20=3D20
Many were done with glaze software too. Notice the charts that start each=
=3D
=3D20
chapter. But I didn=3D92t want to bog down the ceramic artist with a bunch =
=3D
of=3D20
unnecessary math, unreadable charts and UMF terms that they didn=3D92t need=
=3D
.
For every tile you see in the book there are at least 100 tests that were=
=3D
=3D20
excluded. (Also on 3 claybodies, so more like 300.) And just so you know,=
=3D
I=3D20
started the book with 3000 tiles to get warmed up, and that is after 16 y=
=3D
ears=3D20
of testing prior to that.
I also tested many glazes for leaching as stated on page 113. I tested th=
=3D
em=3D20
with barium, barium and copper and in various reduction and oxidation=3D20
atmospheres to see variations. And I tested several celadons with barium =
=3D
as=3D20
well as many glazes with inclusion stains.
And I won=3D92t even get into the firing cycles or claybody tests or the co=
=3D
ncise=3D20
explanations of what potter=3D92s do in mixing, application, and firing.
I hope you were able to follow that summary? I didn=3D92t want to get too d=
=3D
etailed=3D20
because I wasn=3D92t sure you could absorb the complexity of it all. Perhap=
=3D
s you=3D20
would like to reconsider your evaluation of my book.
John Britt
John Britt on tue 17 may 11
David,=3D20=3D20
Well, you have restored my belief that humans can actually learn! Excell=
=3D
ent!=3D20=3D20
And as for the second point, whether that the ill-fated ban has been lift=
=3D
ed, I=3D20
would have hoped that Ron or John, who have been posting as recently as=3D=
20=3D
Sunday May 12 ( trying to sell his kiln), could chime in and end the madn=
=3D
ess=3D20
but for some reason will not?! So I did a quick Google search - because =
=3D
I am=3D20
not lazy ;) - and I low and behold look what I found:
John Hesselberth on tue 17 may 05
"But we recognize that the glazes are going to=3D20
be published on occasion here and elsewhere and are backing off on our=3D20=
=3D
request to not do so. We, of course, do hope that when it happens the=3D20
book is credited.=3D20
We want to thank all the Clayart members for honoring our initial=3D20
request for as long as you have. We are convinced, that in spite of the=3D2=
0=3D
angst it caused on the part of some, that it was a significant factor=3D20
in helping people to be successful with the glazes. We needed to change=3D2=
0=3D
the way potters think about firing electric kilns and "forcing" them to=3D2=
0=3D
read the book to get at the recipes has helped us do that in a major=3D20
way. OK, and it probably helped sales too.=3D20
John and Ron=3D20
John Hesselberth=3D20
http://www.frogpondpottery.com=3D20
http://www.masteringglazes.com "
So with that should end it. I will close with a recipe or two:
GLOSSY CLEAR LINER cone 6
20.01=3D09G-200 Potash Feldspar=3D20
20.01=3D09Ferro 3134=3D20
15.01=3D09Wollastonite=3D20
20.01=3D09EPK China Clay=3D20
6.01=3D09Talc=3D20=3D20
19.01=3D09Silica=3D20
HIGH CALCIUM MATTE cone 6
20.01=3D09Ferro 3195=3D20
29.01=3D09Wollastonite=3D20
4.00=3D09Nepheline Syenite=3D20=3D20
30.01 =3D09EPK China Clay=3D20
17.01 =3D09Silica=3D20
(Possible Colorants: Copper Carbonate 3.00
Rutile 6.00)
And guess what else? You don't need the magical firing cycle to use this =
=3D
glaze.=3D20
You can use preprogrammed cycles, e.g. slow glaze, fast glaze or program =
=3D
your=3D20
own with any slow cooling cycle.=3D20
Johnbrittpottery.com
Stephani Stephenson on wed 18 may 11
John, please , can I talk you down a few notches?=3D20
your information is getting coated with a whole lot of snark, or at least=
=3D
it
reads that way.
I think ALL posters have taken time to give due respect to your book and=
=3D
it's authorship, and many have been quite supportive , if not full of
praise, for your work, you and your perspective. The primary sentiment i
have gleaned from those who disagree with you on some points is that the=
=3D
re
are different approaches and the world is big enough for us to respect
those different approaches, TO repeat, you and Ron and John have all
authored books, used and appreciated by many. All 3 of you have helped an=
=3D
d
communicated people online and individually.
I did not read a high level of insult toward you in any post on this
topic, including Dave's. I understand how you might have perceived
criticism, but your response seems outsized, at least to this reader. I =
=3D
am
not implying any insult to you, your book , or your perspective on sharin=
=3D
g
when I say this. I am just giving you feedback .
I don't know you personally , but in communication you have always seeme=
=3D
d a
congenial and full of passion as well as knowledge w/ regard to the
ceramic arts.=3D20
WIth your last few post it seems you are increasingly going beyond
discussion and lurching into taunting, plain and simple, then taunting
people for not responding to your taunts.=3D20
Not responding to taunts is not the same thing as being 'passive agressiv=
=3D
e'.
NO ONE is required to respond to taunts online just because someone
demands it. By continuing to taunt , you insult your own intelligence as=
=3D
well as the the intelligence of your peers. your posts, in my mind, are
losing a certain degree of integrity, which demeans the underlying issue=
=3D
s=3D20
and discussion at hand.=3D20
So I challenge you to take a step back and chill. and I extend no malice=
=3D
.
Time for me to go dig some REAL holes... in the dirt.
be well, all.
Stephani
Steve Mills on wed 18 may 11
Spot on Ric!
Steve M
Steve Mills
Bath
UK
www.mudslinger.me.uk
Sent from my Ipod touch
On 17 May 2011, at 16:31, Ric Swenson wrote:
> oh.for god's sake
>=3D20
>=3D20
> just share...
>=3D20
> afterall,,,,glazes ....'do not travel' anyway....
>=3D20
> creative..... shemative...oye
>=3D20
>=3D20
> glazes do NOT travel...China or Japan or Georgia to Alaska...just facts..=
.=3D
.
>=3D20
>=3D20
> materials vary....as do people and methods....
>=3D20
> accept it.
>=3D20
>=3D20
> tang...smamang.....lead or frit?
>=3D20
> just color of that time
>=3D20
> they did not know lead was a poison
>=3D20
>=3D20
> pb
>=3D20
>=3D20
> do we? yeah maybe
>=3D20
>=3D20
> nothing is really NEW.....
>=3D20
> creative is just our own work...it takes a real potter to share their wor=
k=3D
with others....for profit or not
>=3D20
>=3D20
>=3D20
>=3D20
>=3D20
>=3D20
>=3D20
>=3D20
> give it up.
>=3D20
>=3D20
> he he
>=3D20
>=3D20
>=3D20
> ric
>=3D20
>=3D20
>=3D20
> ----------------------------
>=3D20
>=3D20
> http:blog.sina.com.cn/ricswenson
>=3D20
>=3D20
> "...then fiery expedition be my wing, ..."
>=3D20
> -Wm. Shakespeare, RICHARD III, Act IV Scene III
>=3D20
>=3D20
>=3D20
> Richard H. ("Ric") Swenson, Teacher,
> Office of International Cooperation and Exchange of Jingdezhen Ceramic In=
s=3D
titute,
> TaoYang Road, Eastern Suburb, Jingdezhen City.
> JiangXi Province, P.R. of China.
> Postal code 333001.
>=3D20
>=3D20
> Mobile/cellular phone : 86 13767818872
>=3D20
>=3D20
> < RicSwenson0823@hotmail.com>
>=3D20
> http://www.jci.jx.cn
>=3D20
>=3D20
>=3D20
>=3D20
>=3D20
>> Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 19:17:41 -0500
>> From: vpitelka@DTCCOM.NET
>> Subject: Re: Tang dynasty glazes--Britt, Pitelka comments
>> To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>>=3D20
>> Dave Finkelnburg wrote:
>> "Obviously I feel very strongly about this. An original glaze recipe is
>> creative work, and as such should be made public only by, or with the
>> express consent of, the creator, and then only freely, willingly. No one=
,=3D
>> particularly not contributors to this list, should be criticized for how
>> they choose, or have chosen, to control their own creative work."
>>=3D20
>> Hi Dave -
>> John and Ron made those recipes public when they published the book. Wha=
t=3D
>> is more public than that? Listen, I am not advocating that John or Ron o=
r=3D
>> anyone else post those recipes on Clayart. If John or Ron continued to a=
s=3D
k
>> people not to post them, I would honor that request, for the simple reas=
o=3D
n
>> that I have a lot of respect for both of them. I am kind of waiting for
>> them to chime in on this. John Britt said that John and Ron lifted the b=
a=3D
n
>> on posting the recipes several years ago, and I would like to know if th=
a=3D
t
>> is true. If it is, then we are only discussing hypothetical situations t=
h=3D
at
>> do not apply to MC6G.
>> - Vince
>>=3D20
>> Vince Pitelka
>> Appalachian Center for Craft
>> Tennessee Tech University
>> vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
>> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
John Britt on wed 18 may 11
Mr. Finkelnburg,
I have no insecurity about my book, just helping you understand the contras=
t
you made was incorrect. (I have created my own glazes and spent a lot of
money testing them.)
We agree to the legal rights and that will not be corrected by "lobbying" o=
f
support. I understand the exact point you are making because as a friend of
Tracy Dotson who lives just down the road, I have helped him many times wit=
h
pinholing problems, and I actually have his recipes. Guarded recipes are
different from published recipes. I would never share his recipes without
his approval.
Maybe now you can get back to your mistaken original claim that Ron and Joh=
n
recipes not be shared on clayart. They have lifted the ban so, as Vince
would say, the above points are moot. Here is the post:
John Hesselberth on tue 17 may 05
"But we recognize that the glazes are going to
be published on occasion here and elsewhere and are backing off on our
request to not do so. We, of course, do hope that when it happens the
book is credited.
We want to thank all the Clayart members for honoring our initial
request for as long as you have. We are convinced, that in spite of the
angst it caused on the part of some, that it was a significant factor
in helping people to be successful with the glazes. We needed to change
the way potters think about firing electric kilns and "forcing" them to
read the book to get at the recipes has helped us do that in a major
way. OK, and it probably helped sales too.
John and Ron
John Hesselberth http://www.frogpondpottery.com
http://www.masteringglazes.com
John Britt
johnbrittpottery@gmail.com
http://ncclayclub.blogspot.com
www.johnbrittpottery.com
David Finkelnburg on wed 18 may 11
Mr. Britt,
I believe I fairly compared and contrasted two very different glaze
books, one of which was written by you. Just for the record, I know what's
in both books because I purchased, own and have read and studied both. You
seem to feel some level of insecurity about your book. That's your problem
and I won't make it mine.
As I wrote, it is a fact that you are within your legal rights to post a
glaze recipe from a published work, even if the publisher asks you not to.
It is my opinion that having that legal right doesn't make doing it correct=
,
ethical or moral. It also works against what you claim you support.
Glaze and clay body recipes are frequently held as trade secrets because
there is no legal protection for that information. Take Tracy Dotson, for
example. You lived in his neighborhood and he posted to Clayart. The last
time I heard from Tracy he credited his signature blue glaze with paying fo=
r
his entire house and studio. As far as I know, he has never been interested
in revealing, let alone publishing, that recipe. That valuable, to him,
trade secret is still making him money. If you really wanted to see open
sharing of recipes you would lobby to give them copyright protection.
John, you have every reason to be proud of your work. That doesn't make
it right for you to insult others who just don't agree with you.
Regards,
Dave Finkelnburg
Snail Scott on thu 19 may 11
When someone offers to share the fruits of their work,
their knowledge, their research, or anything else, it is
an act of generosity. A gift. A gift not freely given is a
basic contradiction: compelled, it is no longer a gift.
Everyone must choose their own way of giving. Some
do more, some less, but everyone has the right to draw
a line. Money? Christmas presents? Fairly earned
professional knowledge? Who should give what? No
one has the right to demand a gift. The sight of a child
demanding a new X-box is distasteful even if the child
isn't yelling, but children are still learning. An adult
doing the same has no excuse.
Those who have given their knowledge, through
teaching, writing, mentoring, or demonstrating have
enriched those around them, and ought to receive
proper gratitude, and those who would rather give in
other ways should not be subjected to an attitude of
entitlement toward the things they have chosen not to
offer.
-Snail
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