George Chechopoulos on wed 25 may 11
I never did get a response to my "Letter to the Editor" of Ceramics Monthly
and apparently they don't publish letters of criticism so I'll post it here=
:
Letter to the Editor:
editorial@ceramicsmonthly.org
Re: Techno File, Flameware, May 2011 Issue of Ceramics Monthly.
Your addition to Ceramics Monthly of the Techno File section has been a
welcoming addition to your periodical in my opinion. It is usually the
first section that I read when I receive Ceramics Monthly and I have always
found it to be accurate and informative. However, the May 2011 article on
"Flameware" was flawed in my humble opinion not by what was said concerning
the technical issues but by information both included and omitted on the
second page of the article. The section on "Weighing the Risks" on page tw=
o
of the article should have included the necessary testing procedures
required to ensure a properly designed and functioning Flameware clay body
and glaze. By the way, have you ever seen Pyrex break on the stove top? I
have.
Then, after all of the warnings against producing Flameware Pottery in that
section you print formulas for clay bodies and glazes that have never been
supported with any published test results by either Ceramics Monthly or by
the people supplying the recipes to you. And to make matters worse, the
"Note" paragraph at the bottom of the page might as well have said,
"Disclaimer, Disclaimer, Disclaimer" instead of anything else. Did your
Attorney write that paragraph for you?
The word "Flameware" implies that the ware can be used not only in the oven
but also on the stove top and customers purchasing this ware from potters
have every right in assuming that the potter has performed all necessary
testing to ensure its flawless performance over time. Testing as noted in
your article implies that the COE or CTE (same thing) is less than 2x10^-6/=
C
(2 parts per million) for the clay body and that the glaze expansion is 5%
to 15% below that of the clay body. See "Ceramic Science for the Potter,"
second Edition, Chapter 11, "Glazes" for more detail on this subject.
Testing should also include the following at a minimum: Dilatometric
testing of the clay body and glazes to ensure their compliance with the CTE
values mentioned above, Acid resistance testing of the glazes, water
absorption testing of the clay body to ensure proper vitrification and
finally extensive Thermal Shock Testing to ensure the long term performance
of what is being called, "Flameware Pottery."
To my knowledge, none of the formulas that you printed in that article have
ever undergone any of the tests that I have described above. Pottery being
called, Flameware, Flameproof, or Ovenware carries with it a responsibility
far greater than that of pottery being produced from Stoneware or
Earthenware because of its implied use and pretty pictures in your magazine
of so called, Flameware or Ovenware won't make up for the lack of properly
documented and published test results.
For more information on Flameware Clay Body and Glaze formulation and
testing see my article in the May issue of Ceramics Technical entitled, "A
Discussion of Flameware."
George J. Chechopoulos (Tsitsas)
Marrowstone Pottery
292 Merry Road, Box 193
Nordland, WA 98358
www.marrowstonepottery.com
www.youtube.com/marrowstonepots
email: marrowstonepots@waypoint.com
Lee on wed 25 may 11
George, thanks for bringing this article to my attention. I need
some new flameware recipes. Can someone post them here?
Thanks again,
Lee
>
> Re: =3DA0Techno File, Flameware, May 2011 Issue of Ceramics Monthly.
--
=3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D9=
7that is, =3D
"The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
ivor and olive lewis on thu 26 may 11
Dear George Chechopoulos,
A couple of points.
Firstly, Space is at a premium with most publishers. So it is essential tha=
t
you are ruthless in your editing and prune your text to the minimum,
consistent with presenting a cohesive argument
Secondly, was the original author attributed. If they were you can take the
fight directly to that person rather than quarrel with The Editor.
I have not yet been able to get a copy of your work recently published in
Ceramics Technical. Perhaps Lee Love should buy a copy
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis,
REDHILL,
South Australia
George Chechopoulos on thu 26 may 11
Lee,
I'm not publishing or making public any of my recipes at this time. My
experimentation with Flameware glazes is still on-going and probably will b=
e
for some time to come. However, I am willing to work with any "experienced=
"
individual who is willing to take the time to research, test and develop
their own formulas, forming and firing procedures. I would be willing to d=
o
the Dilatometer testing, analysis and charting on any Flameware (Flameware
only) clay body and glaze that has undergone certain pre-testing procedures
provided I am given a copy of the formulas. I am sure that there are many
paths to the formulation of good Flameware clay bodies and glazes and I lov=
e
the experimentation.
However, Flameware is not for everyone. This is a prime reason for not
publishing formulas. You can't just take a published formula, throw a pot
as you normally would for Stoneware, fire it and expect everything to come
out right without a thorough understanding of what each material in those
formulas is doing, why your pottery is shaped the way it is and how your
kiln performs during firings to name a few. In short, Flameware is not an
"instant gratification" type of product.
Hope that helps,
George J. Chechopoulos
Marrowstone Pottery
292 Merry Road, Box 193
Nordland, WA 98358
Website: www.marrowstonepottery.com
Youtube: www.youtube.com/marrowstonepots
Email: marrowstonepots@waypoint.com
Phone: 360-379-5169
George Chechopoulos on thu 26 may 11
Hi Ivor,
I agree with what you are saying, however, Ceramics Monthly has no publishe=
d
guidelines that I can find for "Letters to the Editor" so if my letter was
too long then they should have sent me a message to that affect. Since the
Editor didn't bother responding in any way to my letter my only assumption
is that they aren't interested in "constructive" criticism or did I get a
little "destructive" with my comments? Maybe a little but I really do feel
that they were irresponsible in publishing what they call "Flameware"
formulas without any test data and in my opinion they deserve the criticism=
.
By the way, I haven't forgotten about that freeze test. My Flameware pot
has been in the freezer now for at least a couple of weeks with water froze=
n
solid in it. Thus far, the pot hasn't broken due to the freezing action of
the water but even if it does break when I put it on the burner you can't
really equate this test to "normal kitchen use." My wife has been using on=
e
of my "improved" rectangular hand built Flameware casseroles just about
every day now for over a year on the burner and in the oven without a
problem.
George J. Chechopoulos
Marrowstone Pottery
292 Merry Road, Box 193
Nordland, WA 98358
Website: www.marrowstonepottery.com
Youtube: www.youtube.com/marrowstonepots
Email: marrowstonepots@waypoint.com
Phone: 360-379-5169
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of ivor and olive
lewis
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 10:58 PM
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Letter to the Editor - Flameware Pottery
Dear George Chechopoulos,
A couple of points.
Firstly, Space is at a premium with most publishers. So it is essential tha=
t
you are ruthless in your editing and prune your text to the minimum,
consistent with presenting a cohesive argument
Secondly, was the original author attributed. If they were you can take the
fight directly to that person rather than quarrel with The Editor.
I have not yet been able to get a copy of your work recently published in
Ceramics Technical. Perhaps Lee Love should buy a copy
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis,
REDHILL,
South Australia
Chris Campbell on thu 26 may 11
> I never did get a response to my "Letter to the Editor" of Ceramics Month=
ly
> and apparently they don't publish letters of criticism so I'll post it he=
re:
> However, the May 2011 article on "Flameware"
I have to ask where your letter was supposed to be printed if it was about
an article written in the May issue?? It's only May 26th today.
Magazines are sent to press well in advance of their printing so you might
not see your letter in print for at least one more issue.
I think its a bit early to assume no one is listening ...
plus ... they often print opposing viewpoints in the letters area. It used =
to be
the wildest part of the magazine for ongoing arguments.
Chris Campbell - in North Carolina
Chris Campbell Pottery LLC
Designs in Colored Porcelain
www.ccpottery.com
COLORED CLAY WORKSHOPS
CALIFORNIA - JULY 3-8, 2011
Idyllwild Arts,
52500 Temecula Road,
Idyllwild, CA 92549 - PH: 1.951.659.2171
http://www.idyllwildarts.org/
PRE-NCECA 2012 WORKSHOP
SEATTLE, WA - MARCH 24-26,2012
The Ranch Center for Arts & Crafts
Snohomish, WA 1-360-568-7709
www.artattheranch.com
Lee on thu 26 may 11
On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 8:42 AM, George Chechopoulos
wrote:
> I'm not publishing or making public any of my recipes at this time.
I am not interested in your recipes. I am interested in the ones
in the CM article.
> However, Flameware is not for everyone.
I am not of the camp that keeping people ignorant keeps them stay "safe."
Knowledge is always preferable to ignorance. When knowledge is
shared, it multiplies exponentially, unlike material goods. If you
shared your recipes, you might actually learn something and move
forward in your research more quickly.
I bought my flameware clay from the claystore in Mashiko. The
knowledge there is light years ahead of ours. High fire flameware is
very common in Japan, especially in Donabe pots. Problem is today,
that most are imported from China. I have more trust in the flameware
I make.
See Donabe pots here:
http://www.google.com/search?rlz=3D3D1C1_____en&q=3D3Ddonabe+pots&um=3D3D1&=
ie=3D3DU=3D
TF-8&tbm=3D3Disch&source=3D3Dog&sa=3D3DN&hl=3D3Den&tab=3D3Dwi&biw=3D3D967&b=
ih=3D3D631
--
=3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D9=
7that is, =3D
"The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Snail Scott on thu 26 may 11
On May 26, 2011, at 9:10 AM, George Chechopoulos wrote:
> ...My Flameware pot
> has been in the freezer now for at least a couple of weeks with water =3D
frozen
> solid in it. Thus far, the pot hasn't broken due to the freezing =3D
action of
> the water...
It doesn't matter how long you leave it in the freezer.
Once it's frozen, it's not going to get any 'frozen-er'.=3D20
It's the repeat of that cycle - freeze, thaw, freeze, thaw -=3D20
that creates the stresses. One freeze cycle is not a=3D20
suitable test, no matter how long it remains frozen.
-Snail=3D
George Chechopoulos on thu 26 may 11
Snail,
That is true. I simply mentioned that to Ivor because I have delayed the
heat test on the burner for some time now. I don't intend to repeat the
test because I feel that what I have already accomplished with testing is
sufficient for the intended use and I wouldn't guarantee any pot that had
liquid or food frozen in it because it could easily break due to the
expansion of the freezing action which has nothing to do with the Thermal
Expansion quality of the pot under normal cooking conditions.
George C.
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Snail Scott
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 12:16 PM
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Letter to the Editor - Flameware Pottery
On May 26, 2011, at 9:10 AM, George Chechopoulos wrote:
> ...My Flameware pot
> has been in the freezer now for at least a couple of weeks with water
frozen
> solid in it. Thus far, the pot hasn't broken due to the freezing action
of
> the water...
It doesn't matter how long you leave it in the freezer.
Once it's frozen, it's not going to get any 'frozen-er'.
It's the repeat of that cycle - freeze, thaw, freeze, thaw -
that creates the stresses. One freeze cycle is not a
suitable test, no matter how long it remains frozen.
-Snail
George Chechopoulos on thu 26 may 11
Lee,
Well, I guess the Japanese aren't giving out their recipes either. I =3D
think
that I expressed my opinion on that subject thoroughly enough in my last
message to you so I will stand by what I said previously. I will work =3D
with
any experienced individual on Flameware formulation "off line." If that
individual later decides to share his or her formulas with others then =3D
that
is their option. I'm not trying to keep anyone "safe" except myself and =
=3D
my
customers.
Perhaps I misunderstood your previous message because I didn't see any
reference in that message to the recipes that were in the CM May =3D
article.
As far as I am concerned, none of them have any test data to support =3D
calling
them Flameware or anything else except for what they called "Low =3D
Expansion
Glaze for Flameware" and even that one will have some serious =3D
performance
problems and is not specific to any of the clay bodies listed. If you =3D
would
like to discuss any of them in detail please let me know, however, I
wouldn't be interested in doing any testing myself on them as they are
formulated. As far as the other glazes are concerned none of them come
close to being called Flameware glazes.
George J. Chechopoulos
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Lee
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 8:57 AM
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Letter to the Editor - Flameware Pottery
On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 8:42 AM, George Chechopoulos
wrote:
> I'm not publishing or making public any of my recipes at this time.
I am not interested in your recipes. I am interested in the ones
in the CM article.
> However, Flameware is not for everyone.
I am not of the camp that keeping people ignorant keeps them stay =3D
"safe."
Knowledge is always preferable to ignorance. When knowledge is
shared, it multiplies exponentially, unlike material goods. If you
shared your recipes, you might actually learn something and move
forward in your research more quickly.
I bought my flameware clay from the claystore in Mashiko. The
knowledge there is light years ahead of ours. High fire flameware is
very common in Japan, especially in Donabe pots. Problem is today,
that most are imported from China. I have more trust in the flameware
I make.
See Donabe pots here:
http://www.google.com/search?rlz=3D3D1C1_____en&q=3D3Ddonabe+pots&um=3D3D1&=
ie=3D3D=3D
UTF-8&tbm=3D3D
isch&source=3D3Dog&sa=3D3DN&hl=3D3Den&tab=3D3Dwi&biw=3D3D967&bih=3D3D631
--
=3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D9=
7that =3D
is, "The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
George Chechopoulos on thu 26 may 11
Chris,
The June / July / August issue of CM is already out and I received my copy.
No mention of my letter to the Editor in that section. Perhaps distributio=
n
is different in each State or section of the country.
George C.
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Chris Campbell
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 7:54 AM
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Letter to the Editor - Flameware Pottery
> I never did get a response to my "Letter to the Editor" of Ceramics
Monthly
> and apparently they don't publish letters of criticism so I'll post it
here:
> However, the May 2011 article on "Flameware"
I have to ask where your letter was supposed to be printed if it was about
an article written in the May issue?? It's only May 26th today.
Magazines are sent to press well in advance of their printing so you might
not see your letter in print for at least one more issue.
I think its a bit early to assume no one is listening ...
plus ... they often print opposing viewpoints in the letters area. It used
to be
the wildest part of the magazine for ongoing arguments.
Chris Campbell - in North Carolina
Chris Campbell Pottery LLC
Designs in Colored Porcelain
www.ccpottery.com
COLORED CLAY WORKSHOPS
CALIFORNIA - JULY 3-8, 2011
Idyllwild Arts,
52500 Temecula Road,
Idyllwild, CA 92549 - PH: 1.951.659.2171
http://www.idyllwildarts.org/
PRE-NCECA 2012 WORKSHOP
SEATTLE, WA - MARCH 24-26,2012
The Ranch Center for Arts & Crafts
Snohomish, WA 1-360-568-7709
www.artattheranch.com
Randall Moody on thu 26 may 11
Upon reviewing this topic, the question I come away with is "Why use a
flameware pot?" Even old cast iron pots will cook better, with more even
heat and, if cared for correctly, are non-stick. It seems, to me at least,
simply an exercise with little real benefit in the end product.
--
Randall in Atlanta
http://wrandallmoody.com
pdp1 on thu 26 may 11
Hi Randall,
Uhhhhhhh...could it be...be-cause...Potters do not make Cast Iron Pots?
To say nothing of, how, for those people who like 'Flameware', only
'Flameware' will do?
Just guessing mind you...
Phil
Las Vegas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randall Moody"
> Upon reviewing this topic, the question I come away with is "Why use a
> flameware pot?" Even old cast iron pots will cook better, with more even
> heat and, if cared for correctly, are non-stick. It seems, to me at least=
,
> simply an exercise with little real benefit in the end product.
>
> --
> Randall in Atlanta
> http://wrandallmoody.com
John Britt on fri 27 may 11
Lee,
Here are the Flameware Glaze Recipes from the Ceramics Monthly article by=
=3D
=3D20
David Pier.=3D20
Interior Glaze
Ann's Kaki (Ann Stannard) cone 10
43.9 Custer Feldspar
19.4 Silica
6.6 Whiting
5.6 Kaolin
9.2 Bone Ash
5.6 Talc
9.7 Red Iron Oxide
2.0 Bentonite
Exterior Glaze Robbie's Y glaze cone 10
48.37 Custer Feldspar
12.89 Silica
28.00 Whiting
10.74 Kaolin
Add: Titanium Dioxide 8.60
Bentonite 2.15
This has been altered from Karen's Y Glaze, which used G-200 feldspar ins=
=3D
tead=3D20
of Custer feldspar and rutile instead of titanium dioxide. All percentage=
=3D
s ar teh=3D20
same.
Gold: titanium dioxide 5-8%
I know that Robbie Lobell had an article in CM a few years ago (Dec. 2008=
=3D
)=3D20
with recipes.
Steve Mills on fri 27 may 11
Actually I'm with you on that, we have several good well seasoned Iron Skil=
l=3D
ets and Cooking Pots, and frankly they leave the non-stick pans in the dark=
.=3D
But in the Oven my own made wares rule!
Steve M
Steve Mills
Bath
UK
www.mudslinger.me.uk
Sent from my Ipod touch
On 27 May 2011, at 03:06, Randall Moody wrote:
> Upon reviewing this topic, the question I come away with is "Why use a
> flameware pot?" Even old cast iron pots will cook better, with more even
> heat and, if cared for correctly, are non-stick. It seems, to me at least=
,=3D
> simply an exercise with little real benefit in the end product.
>=3D20
> --
> Randall in Atlanta
> http://wrandallmoody.com
Lee on fri 27 may 11
Thanks John! I see only glazes. I figure, the more folks you have
testing and sharing, the better chance you have of success. Like
Hamada once said,
"Secrets hinder progress."
On Fri, May 27, 2011 at 6:20 AM, John Britt wr=
=3D
ote:
> Lee,
>
> Here are the Flameware Glaze Recipes from the Ceramics Monthly article by
> David Pier.
>
> Interior Glaze
> Ann's Kaki (Ann Stannard) cone 10
> 43.9 =3DA0Custer Feldspar
> 19.4 Silica
> 6.6 Whiting
> 5.6 Kaolin
> 9.2 Bone Ash
> 5.6 Talc
> 9.7 Red Iron Oxide
> 2.0 Bentonite
>
> Exterior Glaze Robbie's Y glaze cone 10
> 48.37 Custer Feldspar
> 12.89 Silica
> 28.00 Whiting
> 10.74 Kaolin
>
> Add: Titanium Dioxide 8.60
> =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 Bentonite 2.15
> This has been altered from Karen's Y Glaze, which used G-200 feldspar ins=
=3D
tead
> of Custer feldspar and rutile instead of titanium dioxide. All percentage=
=3D
s ar teh
> same.
>
> Gold: titanium dioxide 5-8%
>
>
> I know that Robbie Lobell had an article in CM a few years ago (Dec. 2008=
=3D
)
> with recipes.
>
>
>
--=3D20
--
=3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D9=
7that is, =3D
"The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
George Chechopoulos on fri 27 may 11
Randall,
What ever happened to your sense of aesthetics? First of all a true
Flameware Clay pot will heat up very quickly and very evenly and is a lot
easier to handle for cooking and cleaning than your cast iron pots. You sa=
y
that you also love to cook so you know that there are many recipes that cal=
l
for some sort of preparation on the burner before putting the pot in the
oven. In other words, use one pot instead of two or three. You also say
that you are a "Potter." So, please tell me this. What type of pot would
you prefer using from oven (or stove top) to table? Cast Iron or Pottery?
Which one would make a better presentation?
I'm almost afraid to hear your answer.
George J. Chechopoulos
Marrowstone Pottery
292 Merry Road, Box 193
Nordland, WA 98358
Website: www.marrowstonepottery.com
Youtube: www.youtube.com/marrowstonepots
Email: marrowstonepots@waypoint.com
Phone: 360-379-5169
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Randall Moody
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 9:07 AM
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Letter to the Editor - Flameware Pottery
Hi Phil,
It still appears to me to be an academic exercise with little to no benefit
in the end. Given the obvious liability issues as well as the simple fact
that there are products that have been in use for hundreds of years that
work better and do not run the risk of causing injury, I still don't know
why anyone would use a flameware pan rather than a better, safer
alternative. I am not speaking of bakeware/ovenware but rather flameware fo=
r
stove top use.
--
Randall in Atlanta
http://wrandallmoody.com
On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 10:41 PM, pdp1 wrote:
> Hi Randall,
>
>
>
> Uhhhhhhh...could it be...be-cause...Potters do not make Cast Iron Pots?
>
>
> To say nothing of, how, for those people who like 'Flameware', only
> 'Flameware' will do?
>
>
> Just guessing mind you...
>
>
> Phil
> Las Vegas
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Randall Moody"
>
> Upon reviewing this topic, the question I come away with is "Why use a
>> flameware pot?" Even old cast iron pots will cook better, with more even
>> heat and, if cared for correctly, are non-stick. It seems, to me at
least,
>> simply an exercise with little real benefit in the end product.
>>
>> --
>> Randall in Atlanta
>> http://wrandallmoody.com
>>
>
Randall Moody on fri 27 may 11
Hi Phil,
It still appears to me to be an academic exercise with little to no benefit
in the end. Given the obvious liability issues as well as the simple fact
that there are products that have been in use for hundreds of years that
work better and do not run the risk of causing injury, I still don't know
why anyone would use a flameware pan rather than a better, safer
alternative. I am not speaking of bakeware/ovenware but rather flameware fo=
r
stove top use.
--
Randall in Atlanta
http://wrandallmoody.com
On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 10:41 PM, pdp1 wrote:
> Hi Randall,
>
>
>
> Uhhhhhhh...could it be...be-cause...Potters do not make Cast Iron Pots?
>
>
> To say nothing of, how, for those people who like 'Flameware', only
> 'Flameware' will do?
>
>
> Just guessing mind you...
>
>
> Phil
> Las Vegas
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Randall Moody"
>
> Upon reviewing this topic, the question I come away with is "Why use a
>> flameware pot?" Even old cast iron pots will cook better, with more even
>> heat and, if cared for correctly, are non-stick. It seems, to me at leas=
t,
>> simply an exercise with little real benefit in the end product.
>>
>> --
>> Randall in Atlanta
>> http://wrandallmoody.com
>>
>
pdp1 on sat 28 may 11
Hi Randall, all,
> Hi Phil,
> It still appears to me to be an academic exercise with little to no
> benefit
> in the end.
This is because you personally do not prefer to enjoy, have, and use 'Flame
Ware' in areas of your cuisine?
I would imagine, if you did ( so prefer ) you would have a different regard
of it.
> Given the obvious liability issues as well as the simple fact
> that there are products that have been in use for hundreds of years that
> work better and do not run the risk of causing injury,
I love well made, well designed Cast Iron Cooking Pots and Pans/Skillets an=
d
Baking forms.
No Clay item can imitate Cast Iron as well as Cast Iron authentically is
itself.
I love well made, well designed Ceramic Objects, and Table use forms,
including 'Flameware' for Cooking or Baking in.
I would never wish for these to pretend they are Cast Iron...Pyrex,
Stainless Steel, or anything else.
How can Cast Iron 'Work Better' than Ceramic Objects, in the dimensions in
which Ceramic Objects 'work'?
Both mediums have many dimensions to them.
Cast Iron would 'work better' ( than Ceramic) for a Coffee Cup? Dinner
Plate? Soup Bowl?
No...of course not...
But, one could argue...that it would.
> I still don't know
> why anyone would use a flameware pan rather than a better, safer
> alternative. I am not speaking of bakeware/ovenware but rather flameware
> for
> stove top use.
For some people it is a Cultural Tradition - their family or their people
have been doing more or less similar things for a long long time, and, thei=
r
Traditional Foods and Recipies happen to call for being prepared in that
way, and, in that sort of Container and method.
For other people, there is the desire or personal history 'tradition' or
taste, to emulate either the method, or, the kinds of recipies they
experienced from others or evolved themselves.
There used to be some Restaurants here I really liked, and, some of their
Dishes were made and served in Flameware Pottery Dishes ( or, the sort in
which one Baked, anyway ), and, it was wonderful Food...and a wonderful
presentation being in the Clay Baking Dish.
I myself wished very much to learn the recipies, methods, and, to emulate
the result.
To do so, I would wish to have, and, require to have, "Flame Ware" Pottery
of about the same sort or size.
It would not be the same Food if prepared in Cast Iron or Pyrex...and or, i=
t
would certainly not present the same appearance when served.
Those then are some of the 'reasons'.
'Better' always needs to be very narrowly defined and qualified...and, even
when it is, the often exsanquine abstraction which tends to remain, is not
necessarily going to be compelling anyway!
At least not to everyone!
Different than Cast Iron, some of my favorite Skillets were/are Wrought
Iron.
One does not tend to see Wrought Iron Skillets very often.
I used to bake Pies in them, as well as Cook things on the Stove Top.
> Randall in Atlanta
> http://wrandallmoody.com
Love,
Phil
Lv
Lee on sat 28 may 11
On Sat, May 28, 2011 at 1:13 AM, George Chechopoulos
wrote:
> you prefer using from oven (or stove top) to table? =3DA0Cast Iron or Pot=
te=3D
ry?
> Which one would make a better presentation?
>
> I'm almost afraid to hear your answer.
George, many people are afraid of what they don't know.
I've had Donabe in iron and ceramic vessels and it just
doesn't feel right in iron.
http://bit.ly/krE5nv
Also, the Tangine has its charm, it simply isn't in the
realm of experience of some folks, especially in the less cosmopolitan
regions of the USA.
http://bit.ly/iOGgGC
--
=3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D9=
7that is, =3D
"The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Lee on sat 28 may 11
Interesting webpage with instructions on the use of Donabe:
http://www.muji.us/store/donabe-igayaki-earthen-pot-brown.html
--
=3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D9=
7that is, =3D
"The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
George Chechopoulos on sat 28 may 11
Hi Lee, J.A., Mel and All,
Lee's webpage reference below with "instructions" brings up an =3D
interesting
point for me. Earthenware and Stoneware pottery have been used for
centuries by people for cooking but they all come with their own set of
"do's and don'ts." Paula Wolfert wrote a book called, "Mediterranean =3D
Clay
Pot Cooking" that you can buy just about anywhere or look up at your =3D
local
library. Her book contains a section on "Tips for Using Your Clay Pots
Successfully" and "Clay Safety." I can argue with the content of the =3D
Clay
Safety section but that is not what concerns me at this time.
One of the reasons I got interested in Flameware Pottery was because of =3D
all
those special instructions that come with using pots made of Earthenware =
=3D
and
Stoneware. Most people today that prefer using pottery for food =3D
preparation
like Paula Wolfert are going to get tired trying to remember what to do =3D
with
each specific pot that they own for cooking and eventually something =3D
will
not be done right or the clay will get structurally fatigued and it will
fail. =3D20
That is what was happening with some of the stoneware that some of my =3D
former
students were making for cooking. They would either stick the pot in a
pre-heated oven or take it out of a hot oven and place it on a cold =3D
surface
and it would break. I often wonder how many of my stoneware pie dishes =3D
that
I sold are still in one piece even though I never did get a complaint or
feedback from a customer concerning breakage. My feeling is that they =3D
just
stop buying so called "pottery for cooking."
Now, I'm not saying that Flameware doesn't come without its own set of
instructions but if it is designed properly the list is drastically =3D
reduced
from that printed in Paula's book. In fact, you can forget about that =3D
list
of tips in Paula's book because even as she says, "Flameware is an =3D
exception
to this rule."
Mel just happened to be there when that "stoneware" casserole that he =3D
sold
to his neighbor broke but has anyone out there ever gotten any long term
feed back from their customers on casseroles that they have sold in the
past? Cups included because they also hold hot liquid.
George J. Chechopoulos
Marrowstone Pottery
292 Merry Road, Box 193
Nordland, WA 98358
Website: www.marrowstonepottery.com
Youtube: www.youtube.com/marrowstonepots=3D20
Email: marrowstonepots@waypoint.com=3D20
-----Original Message-----
From: togeika@gmail.com [mailto:togeika@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Lee
Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 6:55 AM
To: George Chechopoulos
Cc: Clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
Subject: Re: Letter to the Editor - Flameware Pottery
Interesting webpage with instructions on the use of Donabe:
http://www.muji.us/store/donabe-igayaki-earthen-pot-brown.html=3D20
--
=3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D9=
7that =3D
is, "The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Randall Moody on sat 28 may 11
It appears to me that most people who are raising questions about the use o=
=3D
f
flameware know about the issue. It is arrogance to assume that someone who
doesn't hold your particular point of view is ignorant of the subject. It
has nothing to do with how "cosmopolitan" the region the person lives in.
That is yet another example of arrogance.
--=3D20
Randall in Atlanta (population ~541000)
http://wrandallmoody.com
On Sat, May 28, 2011 at 9:52 AM, Lee wrote:
> On Sat, May 28, 2011 at 1:13 AM, George Chechopoulos
> wrote:
>
> > you prefer using from oven (or stove top) to table? Cast Iron or
> Pottery?
> > Which one would make a better presentation?
> >
> > I'm almost afraid to hear your answer.
>
> George, many people are afraid of what they don't know.
>
> I've had Donabe in iron and ceramic vessels and it just
> doesn't feel right in iron.
> http://bit.ly/krE5nv
> Also, the Tangine has its charm, it simply isn't in the
> realm of experience of some folks, especially in the less cosmopolitan
> regions of the USA.
> http://bit.ly/iOGgGC
>
> --
> Lee Love in Minneapolis
> http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
>
> "Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97t=
hat is, =3D
"The
> land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
> within itself." -- John O'Donohue
>
Bonnie Staffel on mon 30 may 11
I have a story about the first casserole that impressed me so much =3D
before I
ever thought of studying pottery,. It was during WWII and I had left =3D
home to
live in the YWCA. The YMCA was across the street and often had Friday =3D
night
dances for the servicemen and the local young ladies. I met some very =3D
nice
guys during that time and one in particular always took me to a special
restaurant when he got into the port and where we had filet mignon. =3D
After
dinner, the waitress would bring around this huge low wide casserole =3D
filled
with a special Tomato Pudding. It really topped off the meal and I never
forgot it. I did some searching for that recipe in the ensuing years and
finally found it. It brought back many memories of a very unusual time =3D
in my
life, having a job in an office as a secretary and taking art lessons =3D
with a
famous local artist in the evening. Now when I go to potlucks, I usually
bring the Tomato Pudding in one of my casseroles.=3D20
When I sell my casseroles and ovenware, I include a small pamphlet about =
=3D
how
to use it. I caution about putting a piece of meat on the floor of the =3D
pot
without having the rest of the casserole filled with food or liquid. It
equalizes the heat distribution. With the meat in the center of the
casserole only, it is an invitation to disaster, IMO
Bonnie
http://webpages.charter.net/bstaffel/
http://vasefinder.com/bstaffelgallery1.html
DVD=3DA0 Throwing with Coils and Slabs
DVD=3DA0 Introduction to Wheel Work
Charter Member Potters Council
George Chechopoulos on mon 30 may 11
Yours looking good, Bonnie. Good story and good pottery.
George J. Chechopoulos
Marrowstone Pottery
292 Merry Road, Box 193
Nordland, WA 98358
Website: www.marrowstonepottery.com
Youtube: www.youtube.com/marrowstonepots=3D20
Email: marrowstonepots@waypoint.com=3D20
Phone: 360-379-5169
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Bonnie =3D
Staffel
Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2011 9:14 PM
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Letter to the Editor - Flameware Pottery
I have a story about the first casserole that impressed me so much =3D
before I
ever thought of studying pottery,. It was during WWII and I had left =3D
home to
live in the YWCA. The YMCA was across the street and often had Friday =3D
night
dances for the servicemen and the local young ladies. I met some very =3D
nice
guys during that time and one in particular always took me to a special
restaurant when he got into the port and where we had filet mignon. =3D
After
dinner, the waitress would bring around this huge low wide casserole =3D
filled
with a special Tomato Pudding. It really topped off the meal and I never
forgot it. I did some searching for that recipe in the ensuing years and
finally found it. It brought back many memories of a very unusual time =3D
in my
life, having a job in an office as a secretary and taking art lessons =3D
with a
famous local artist in the evening. Now when I go to potlucks, I usually
bring the Tomato Pudding in one of my casseroles.=3D20
When I sell my casseroles and ovenware, I include a small pamphlet about =
=3D
how
to use it. I caution about putting a piece of meat on the floor of the =3D
pot
without having the rest of the casserole filled with food or liquid. It
equalizes the heat distribution. With the meat in the center of the
casserole only, it is an invitation to disaster, IMO
Bonnie
http://webpages.charter.net/bstaffel/
http://vasefinder.com/bstaffelgallery1.html
DVD=3DA0 Throwing with Coils and Slabs
DVD=3DA0 Introduction to Wheel Work
Charter Member Potters Council
Patty Kaliher on mon 30 may 11
Now I want that tomato pudding recipe.
Patty Kaliher
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Bonnie Staffel
Now when I go to potlucks, I usually
bring the Tomato Pudding in one of my casseroles.
Bonnie
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