mel jacobson on thu 26 may 11
a few years back, one of my near neighbors was taking
a ham out of the oven, in one of my big covered casseroles.
it split in two pieces, she had hot grease burning her legs.
she went to emergency. no scars. thank god.
easter dinner was in shambles.
she had me make a new casserole.
she could have sued me.
i checked with my insurance company...they said...
`no coverage for you with that accident...i would have to
carry product liability`...if i could get it.
and that would be in the thousands.`.
does one wonder why i resist?
i was very close to a major disaster. it could have
been like $50,000 cash paid by me.
i looked at that casserole, no need for it to crack in two.
but, it did.
maybe she put it in cold, she could not remember. but, her
legs got burned very badly. and, i think the doubt in her mind
about what she did saved my butt.
it was still my casserole that split in two.
hard to deny that.
yes...even a mug. hot coffee down a face.
and yes lili, this was not learning that i wanted to participate in.
i am shy. have to admit that. but, when it happens to you...
well, you too will be shy.
we carry several million in liability insurance on ridatick.
it is a must. it is very expensive. selling a product=3Dliability. yours.
mel
and, to each their own story, and what works for them.
flameware scares the crap out of me.
from: minnetonka, mn
website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
clayart link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
new book: http://www.21stcenturykilns.com
alternate: melpots7575@gmail.com
George Chechopoulos on fri 27 may 11
Mel,
I assume that the casserole that you made back when was Stoneware, not
Flameware. If my assumption is correct, then why be afraid of Flameware
that has been properly formulated and tested? We have been using it for
almost two years now in our kitchen, on the burner and in the oven without
any breakage problems. I'm still testing glazes for better cleanup of
burned on food but aside from that issue everything works fine. Take a loo=
k
at my thermal shock testing video on my website if you have any further
doubts about the feasibility of Flameware.
However, I do understand that it is not for everyone and should never be fo=
r
the inexperienced. It is a lot more demanding than Stoneware or any other
clay body.
George J. Chechopoulos
Marrowstone Pottery
292 Merry Road, Box 193
Nordland, WA 98358
Website: www.marrowstonepottery.com
Youtube: www.youtube.com/marrowstonepots
Email: marrowstonepots@waypoint.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of mel jacobson
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 7:24 PM
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: my story/broken casserole
a few years back, one of my near neighbors was taking
a ham out of the oven, in one of my big covered casseroles.
it split in two pieces, she had hot grease burning her legs.
she went to emergency. no scars. thank god.
easter dinner was in shambles.
she had me make a new casserole.
she could have sued me.
i checked with my insurance company...they said...
`no coverage for you with that accident...i would have to
carry product liability`...if i could get it.
and that would be in the thousands.`.
does one wonder why i resist?
i was very close to a major disaster. it could have
been like $50,000 cash paid by me.
i looked at that casserole, no need for it to crack in two.
but, it did.
maybe she put it in cold, she could not remember. but, her
legs got burned very badly. and, i think the doubt in her mind
about what she did saved my butt.
it was still my casserole that split in two.
hard to deny that.
yes...even a mug. hot coffee down a face.
and yes lili, this was not learning that i wanted to participate in.
i am shy. have to admit that. but, when it happens to you...
well, you too will be shy.
we carry several million in liability insurance on ridatick.
it is a must. it is very expensive. selling a product=3Dliability. yours.
mel
and, to each their own story, and what works for them.
flameware scares the crap out of me.
from: minnetonka, mn
website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
clayart link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
new book: http://www.21stcenturykilns.com
alternate: melpots7575@gmail.com
pdp1 on sat 28 may 11
Hi George, Mel, all...
Well too...the person who experienced the Casserole Dish breaking in
use...may have cracked it in the Sink or whatever, prior to using it that
day...or, if they had not, one of their kids, relatives, spouce, or
whom-ever, may have.
It may have been cracked from unremarkable mis-hap or sink-fumble which
happened years before finally letting go.
Very very very few people are cogent enough to realize they have cracked a
Ceramic item in a minor fumble or slip in the Sink or as may be, even if
later, at some point, they exclaim how to them, in their experince, "it jus=
t
broke" out of the Blue!
So...
Golly...
Phil
Lv
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Chechopoulos"
> Mel,
>
> I assume that the casserole that you made back when was Stoneware, not
> Flameware. If my assumption is correct, then why be afraid of Flameware
> that has been properly formulated and tested? We have been using it for
> almost two years now in our kitchen, on the burner and in the oven withou=
t
> any breakage problems. I'm still testing glazes for better cleanup of
> burned on food but aside from that issue everything works fine. Take a
> look
> at my thermal shock testing video on my website if you have any further
> doubts about the feasibility of Flameware.
>
> However, I do understand that it is not for everyone and should never be
> for
> the inexperienced. It is a lot more demanding than Stoneware or any othe=
r
> clay body.
>
> George J. Chechopoulos
> Marrowstone Pottery
> 292 Merry Road, Box 193
> Nordland, WA 98358
> Website: www.marrowstonepottery.com
> Youtube: www.youtube.com/marrowstonepots
> Email: marrowstonepots@waypoint.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of mel jacobson
> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 7:24 PM
> To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: my story/broken casserole
>
> a few years back, one of my near neighbors was taking
> a ham out of the oven, in one of my big covered casseroles.
> it split in two pieces, she had hot grease burning her legs.
> she went to emergency. no scars. thank god.
> easter dinner was in shambles.
>
> she had me make a new casserole.
> she could have sued me.
>
> i checked with my insurance company...they said...
> `no coverage for you with that accident...i would have to
> carry product liability`...if i could get it.
> and that would be in the thousands.`.
> does one wonder why i resist?
> i was very close to a major disaster. it could have
> been like $50,000 cash paid by me.
>
> i looked at that casserole, no need for it to crack in two.
> but, it did.
> maybe she put it in cold, she could not remember. but, her
> legs got burned very badly. and, i think the doubt in her mind
> about what she did saved my butt.
>
> it was still my casserole that split in two.
> hard to deny that.
>
> yes...even a mug. hot coffee down a face.
>
> and yes lili, this was not learning that i wanted to participate in.
>
> i am shy. have to admit that. but, when it happens to you...
> well, you too will be shy.
>
> we carry several million in liability insurance on ridatick.
> it is a must. it is very expensive. selling a product=3Dliability. your=
s.
> mel
> and, to each their own story, and what works for them.
> flameware scares the crap out of me.
> from: minnetonka, mn
> website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
> clayart link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
> new book: http://www.21stcenturykilns.com
> alternate: melpots7575@gmail.com
George Chechopoulos on sat 28 may 11
That's a pretty good success story, Edouard, but if your intention is to
sell casseroles to hundreds of people out there you can't depend on them al=
l
following your instructions.
What I'm trying to do with Flameware is narrow down the instructions to the
really "dumb" stuff that has nothing to do with cooking like, "don't heat
the pot empty on the burner" even though I know that it won't break doing
something like that is a fire or burn hazard. There just isn't any reason
for a cook to do that but I'm sure that someone will put that pot of mine o=
n
the burner, turn the burner on and then walk away and forget about it. Tha=
t
can happen with any form of cookware. As I recall, I've done that same
"dumb" thing a few times in the past. With Flameware it just gets hot but
doesn't hurt the pot but with a metal pan it can really mess it up.
George J. Chechopoulos
Marrowstone Pottery
292 Merry Road, Box 193
Nordland, WA 98358
Website: www.marrowstonepottery.com
Youtube: www.youtube.com/marrowstonepots
Email: marrowstonepots@waypoint.com
Phone: 360-379-5169
-----Original Message-----
From: Edouard Bastarache [mailto:edouardb@colba.net]
Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 9:49 AM
To: George Chechopoulos
Subject: Re: my story/broken casserole
George,
I made a large casserole for the lady next door 35 years ago out of
Plainsman's stoneware clay. She has baked beans 600 times since then and th=
e
pot is still in a very good condition. Naturally I instructed here, as Stev=
e
Slatin said recently, to put the stuffs in it at room temperature and to
bake slowly, I told her it was not a frying pan.
Gis,
Edouard Bastarache
Spertesperantisto
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30058682@N00/
http://edouardbastarache.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/edouard.bastarache
http://blogsalbertbastarache.blogspot.com/
Eva Gallagher on sat 28 may 11
I think the other thing to remember with stoneware - you do need to use it
as a casserole and not as a roasting pan - that is as a toasting pan one
section that is covered with the meat remains colder until the meat starts
cooking - and with a large piece of meat that can take quite a bit of time
so for a while there will be a lot of temerature differential.
Eva Gallagher
Deep River, Ontario
http://newfoundoutpotter.blogspot.com/
http://www.valleyartisans.com/gallagher/Gallagher.htm
David Hendley on sat 28 may 11
I stopped making casseroles in about 1980. A customer came back to
me with one split right in half. The edges were S-H-A-R-P, and in fact,
she had cut her hand, but not too bad.
I am usually a slow learner, but I immediately crossed casseroles off my
to-do list - and I was making a selling a lot of them. The way I looked at
it, I could sell pretty much whatever I made, since it was all reasonably
priced functional pottery, so why take the chance selling such a technicall=
y
demanding item that could potentially cause me great grief?
I have relented and made a few through the years. I know they would
be good sellers, but I will not make them regularly. I still use casseroles
that I made in the '70's. At this point, after hundreds of uses, most do
have "surface cracks" - definite cracks, but they do not go all the
way through, and the pieces still have integrity and function fine.
I make a lot of coffee mugs. I regularly pick some out, freeze them,
and then pour boiling water in them. Soak them and then microwave
them, to make sure they do not get too hot (I also test my claybody
for absorption).
While we are on the subject, does anyone know of a potter who actually
had to answer a product liability claim and his product liability insurance
paid the claim?
I never have, leading me to conclude that such insurance is not really
very necessary, in spite of the scare stories and the "better safe than
sorry" mantra that is always used as justification.
David Hendley
david@farmpots.com
http://www.farmpots.com
http://www.thewahooligans.com
George Chechopoulos on sat 28 may 11
David,
What clay body were you using for those casseroles?
George J. Chechopoulos
Marrowstone Pottery
292 Merry Road, Box 193
Nordland, WA 98358
Website: www.marrowstonepottery.com
Youtube: www.youtube.com/marrowstonepots
Email: marrowstonepots@waypoint.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of David Hendley
Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 5:13 PM
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: my story/broken casserole
I stopped making casseroles in about 1980. A customer came back to
me with one split right in half. The edges were S-H-A-R-P, and in fact,
she had cut her hand, but not too bad.
I am usually a slow learner, but I immediately crossed casseroles off my
to-do list - and I was making a selling a lot of them. The way I looked at
it, I could sell pretty much whatever I made, since it was all reasonably
priced functional pottery, so why take the chance selling such a technicall=
y
demanding item that could potentially cause me great grief?
I have relented and made a few through the years. I know they would
be good sellers, but I will not make them regularly. I still use casseroles
that I made in the '70's. At this point, after hundreds of uses, most do
have "surface cracks" - definite cracks, but they do not go all the
way through, and the pieces still have integrity and function fine.
I make a lot of coffee mugs. I regularly pick some out, freeze them,
and then pour boiling water in them. Soak them and then microwave
them, to make sure they do not get too hot (I also test my claybody
for absorption).
While we are on the subject, does anyone know of a potter who actually
had to answer a product liability claim and his product liability insurance
paid the claim?
I never have, leading me to conclude that such insurance is not really
very necessary, in spite of the scare stories and the "better safe than
sorry" mantra that is always used as justification.
David Hendley
david@farmpots.com
http://www.farmpots.com
http://www.thewahooligans.com
Lee on sat 28 may 11
On Sat, May 28, 2011 at 7:13 PM, David Hendley wrote:
> I never have, leading me to conclude that such insurance is not really
> very necessary, in spite of the scare stories and the "better safe than
> sorry" mantra that is always used as justification.
Most potters aren't wealthy enough (unless they inherited or married
it) to be worth suing.
--
=3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D9=
7that is, =3D
"The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Lis Allison on sun 29 may 11
On May 28, 2011, David Hendley wrote:
>
> While we are on the subject, does anyone know of a potter who actually
> had to answer a product liability claim and his product liability
> insurance paid the claim?
> I never have, leading me to conclude that such insurance is not really
> very necessary, in spite of the scare stories and the "better safe than
> sorry" mantra that is always used as justification.
I don't know that too many potters here (Canada) have product liability
insurance. It seems unaffordable unless you are a huge company.
Another weird thing is that if you have it, you will be much more likely
to get sued. As it stands, few people can afford to sue you unless there
is a possible pay-off. In other words, if they know they'll never collect
any substantial amount, they won't risk hiring a lawyer to go after you.
Not that I think we can treat the issue of product safety lightly, I
don't. I just wanted to point out how convoluted the world of insurance
can be.
Lis
--
Elisabeth Allison
Pine Ridge Studio
website: www.pine-ridge.ca
Pottery blog: www.studio-on-the-ridge.blogspot.com
Garden blog: www.garden-on-the-ridge.blogspot.com
Larry Kruzan on sun 29 may 11
i checked with my insurance company...they said...
`no coverage for you with that accident...i would have to carry product
liability`...if i could get it.
and that would be in the thousands.`.
does one wonder why i resist?
i was very close to a major disaster. it could have been like $50,000 cash
paid by me.
<<<<<>>>>>>>>
Hi Mel and all,
I do carry product liability insurance as a part of my business insurance
"package". I also carry a $1 million personal liability rider that will
cover anything I might do that would result in a lawsuit. My business
insurance which includes building fire/earthquake/flood/etc., all equipment
and personal injury (for customers) runs $112 a month and the rider costs
another $20 a month.
In my case, I have a very public "face" and the insurance is a requirement.
I shutter every winter as my elderly customers make their way from my
parking lot, into my gallery. There has never been any problem, but it's
like Russian roulette - someday one of them are going to fall or slip. I do
my best to keep the lot clear of ice and snow, but it can be blowing 40mph
and white-out conditions and they will still show up (bless their hearts).
I see carrying enough insurance as good public relations and being a good
neighbor.
Every time there is a tornado, hurricane, flood or any other disaster, the
press have no problem finding folks with no insurance - then those who do
not prepare plead for help. I do donate to help out (like everyone else - w=
e
MUST care for the kids), but I really could care less about the adults who
should know better. Insurance does not cost - it pays, exactly when you nee=
d
it.
Larry Kruzan
Lost Creek Pottery
www.lostcreekpottery.com
David Hendley on sun 29 may 11
I can't help it, I just have to respond when tired old clich=3DE9s are
presented as fact. In this case, Larry's statement,
"Insurance does not cost - it pays, exactly when you need it."
Purchasing or not purchasing insurance, statistically, is nothing
different than pulling a slot machine handle in a casino. Casino
owners are not stupid, and neither are insurance companies. Both
"pay out" a percentage of what they take in, but, of course,
another percentage is retained as profit for the "house".
Larry, your insurance has certainly cost you - about $1600 a
year for however many years you have been buying it.
My homeowner's insurance for my house that I moved into
20 years ago has now cost me almost half as much as I paid to
build the house! Quite a cost, I'd say.
The thing is, neither Larry nor I will complain because we are
thankful that we have not needed the insurance. But the cost
of the insurance is very real. If I had saved and invested all
that money instead of paying premiums I could well have
enough cash on hand to rebuild my house should it be destroyed.
I will certainly be in a bad situation if a hapless customer buys
something from me, somehow receives an injury from it, and files
a suit, but my judgment is that I am more likely to be hit by a
falling asteroid or spaceship (this is not a joke - some people
in my area had pieces of the Columbia space shuttle smash
through their roofs.)
I am not advocating that anyone buy or not buy any particular
kind of insurance. With the details he presented, it sounds like
Larry needs full insurance coverage at his pottery shop. I just
suggest that the decision be based on statistics, costs,
probability, and one's own personal situation rather than clich=3DE9s.
David Hendley
david@farmpots.com
http://www.farmpots.com
http://www.thewahooligans.com
----- Original Message -----=3D20
> Hi Mel and all,
> I do carry product liability insurance as a part of my business insuran=
=3D
ce
> "package". I also carry a $1 million personal liability rider that will
> cover anything I might do that would result in a lawsuit. My business
> insurance which includes building fire/earthquake/flood/etc., all
> equipment
> and personal injury (for customers) runs $112 a month and the rider cos=
=3D
ts
> another $20 a month.
> In my case, I have a very public "face" and the insurance is a
> requirement.
> I shutter every winter as my elderly customers make their way from my
> parking lot, into my gallery. There has never been any problem, but it'=
=3D
s
> like Russian roulette - someday one of them are going to fall or slip. =
=3D
I
> do
> my best to keep the lot clear of ice and snow, but it can be blowing 40=
=3D
mph
> and white-out conditions and they will still show up (bless their heart=
=3D
s).
> I see carrying enough insurance as good public relations and being a go=
=3D
od
> neighbor.
> Every time there is a tornado, hurricane, flood or any other disaster, =
=3D
the
> press have no problem finding folks with no insurance - then those who =
=3D
do
> not prepare plead for help. I do donate to help out (like everyone else=
=3D
-
> we
> MUST care for the kids), but I really could care less about the adults =
=3D
who
> should know better. Insurance does not cost - it pays, exactly when you
> need
> it.
>
> Larry Kruzan
> Lost Creek Pottery
> www.lostcreekpottery.com
Larry Kruzan on mon 30 may 11
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of David Hendley
Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2011 9:48 PM
Larry, your insurance has certainly cost you - about $1600 a
year for however many years you have been buying it.
My homeowner's insurance for my house that I moved into
20 years ago has now cost me almost half as much as I paid to
build the house! Quite a cost, I'd say.
<<<<<<<<<<<< snip >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Well David, I did not say that I've never had a claim - I said that I've
never had a customer injure themselves with a slip and fall situation and
I've never had a product liability claim. I'm careful about such things, as
Mel is, but just like Mel's friends injury - things happen and for me, it's
nice to know that IF my work causes a injury, it will NOT cost my home.
11 years ago my workshop building at home burnt to the ground. A 3 year old
finished 30x50 building that housed most of my tools, equipment from my
engineering company (mostly machine tooling), a lot of construction
equipment, a very well equipped woodshop, a new John Deer Loader/tractor an=
d
in one end was my darkroom and camera storage. Because I had replacement
value insurance this $231,000 claim was paid in one week.
One month ago a neighbor had a truck slip out of gear and it rolled down a
hill and into my kiln building, destroying my 70cf cart kiln. Although he
did not have enough insurance to cover the claim, he only carried the state
minimum ($15,000 property damage) my loss of building and kiln was a bit
more, the company paid the entire claim after my insurance company contacte=
d
them and made plain that it would be best if it was covered. Without their
clout (and the legal team behind it) I'm certain I would have been forced t=
o
make up the difference.
While I've never been in a flood, I pay for the insurance. I've never have
been in an earthquake, but I pay for the insurance. I've never been in a ca=
r
wreck, but I carry car insurance. We have a very nice home that I built bac=
k
when I made a very good living, if anything happened to it today and I did
not carry the insurance I do, I would not be able to replace it today. I'm
not a gambler, I lose too often.
It may be foolish pride on my part, but if I ever lost the farm because of
something I could have covered for a few dollars, I sure would not ask for
charity.
I see it as being a good steward of the blessings God has sent my way.
I have often said that you are one of my personal heroes in clay, that if I
could ever spend a few days working with any potter, you are tops on my
list. I know you make your living from clay and the skill of your hands, bu=
t
there are things that help you do that. If one of those horrible tornados
that have been recently hitting all around you had dropped in for a visit,
after you and yours climbed out of the storm cellar, could you rebuild it
all without insurance? Before the bank account got bent out of shape -
remember without your store you have no income. I know I could not without
breaking into more than a couple piggy banks.
Perhaps you are a more successful gambler than I have ever been, I don't
take chances on what I can prevent or insure. For me, insurance does not
cost, it has paid just when I needed it worse.
Larry Kruzan
Lost Creek Pottery
www.lostcreekpottery.com
WJ Seidl on mon 30 may 11
Here's a statistic for you.
Most major insurers pay out an average of 60% of a claim.
Depreciation etc. account for the other 40%.
(My Independent Agent told me that, and I've seen that personally as well.)
So if you have a "total" loss on a $100,000 policy, expect to get around
$60,000 back.
Excuse my crude language, but those odds SUCK big time.
After having been royally screwed in FL with a "total loss" where we
were "insured to the nines"
and having "lost our shirt" after paying premiums for 20 years (!)
I'll continue to self-insure. It's money in the bank I can't use, but it
certainly beats throwing it away at an insurance company
that has absolutely NO intention of paying it back. At least I know
it's there when I need it, and I'll get it all (assuming the banks don't
fold.)
Just my not so humble opinion.
Here's something else to make you cringe a little...did you know that
most insurers now base "replacement value" for
household items on prices from EBAY??! (Yes, that's a verifiable
truth...ask an adjuster)
Best,
Wayne Seidl
On 5/29/2011 10:47 PM, David Hendley wrote:
> I can't help it, I just have to respond when tired old clich=E9s are
> presented as fact. In this case, Larry's statement,
> "Insurance does not cost - it pays, exactly when you need it."
>
> Purchasing or not purchasing insurance, statistically, is nothing
> different than pulling a slot machine handle in a casino. Casino
> owners are not stupid, and neither are insurance companies. Both
> "pay out" a percentage of what they take in, but, of course,
> another percentage is retained as profit for the "house".
Lee on mon 30 may 11
On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 7:08 AM, WJ Seidl wrote:
> Here's something else to make you cringe a little...did you know that
> most insurers now base "replacement value" for
> household items on prices from EBAY??! (Yes, that's a verifiable
> truth...ask an adjuster)
That would work well for me. The most valuable objects in my
house are my Shimaoka pieces. I don't think I could get their "Ebay
worth" locally.
--
=3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D9=
7that is, =3D
"The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
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