Lee on thu 5 jan 12
On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 6:55 PM, Jeannean Hibbitts
wrote:
> I have a maiolica mug made by Posey Bacopoulos (a souvenir from a busines=
=3D
s
> trip to Minneapolis) that doesn't sweat. I've heard that she applies slip
> to the bottoms of her pots. Is this why her mug stays dry, because the sl=
=3D
ip
> seals it? If slip is essentially a liquefied clay (and I may be
> oversimplifying here), why would a slip seal when clay doesn't? Would
> burnishing the bottom of the mug help?
I use terra sig. It seals clay. Also, I fire to cone 1. It makes
earthenware stronger and more vitreous.
--
=3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D9=
7that is, =3D
"The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Jeannean Hibbitts on thu 5 jan 12
* and other low firing clay
I made some maiolica-style mugs using a white low fire clay. I glazed them
inside and out, excepting the base, of course, with a brush. I have noticed
that the bottoms "sweat" - I pick up the mug of coffee and notice moisture
on the table surface where the mug had sat. One of the mugs even leaks, but
I assume perhaps I must have missed a spot in brushing.
I have a maiolica mug made by Posey Bacopoulos (a souvenir from a business
trip to Minneapolis) that doesn't sweat. I've heard that she applies slip
to the bottoms of her pots. Is this why her mug stays dry, because the slip
seals it? If slip is essentially a liquefied clay (and I may be
oversimplifying here), why would a slip seal when clay doesn't? Would
burnishing the bottom of the mug help?
I take it that this is one of the problems with earthenware and similar
clays.
I should note that I wash all dishes (including Posey's) in a dishwasher.
Perhaps the clay is retaining some of that moisture and releasing it when
the mug is warmed with coffee.
After reading some of the recent posts and my own experience trying to
cater to the tastes and styles of others - never again - I am seriously
thinking of diving head first into low fire. It might be where my own
voices are leading me. But the sweating is a concern.
Any wisdom on the subject?
Thanks to all,
Jeannean
Spider Hole Pottery
Astoria, OR
marci Boskie's Mama =3D^..^=3D on fri 6 jan 12
> Jeannean Hibbitts wrote:
>I made some maiolica-style mugs using a white low fire clay. I glazed them
>inside and out, excepting the base, of course, with a brush. I have notice=
d
>that the bottoms "sweat" - I pick up the mug of coffee and notice moisture
>on the table surface where the mug had sat. One of the mugs even leaks, bu=
t
>I assume perhaps I must have missed a spot in brushing.
------
One thing that occurred to me about this :
Earthenware clay will remain porous. It doesnt vitrify like porcelain
does which is why it needs glaze to be able to contain a liquid. If
Posey's mug doesnt sweat and yours does ( after being washed) ,
could it be possible that yours isnt fired to maturity and the
underfiring is making the clay even more porous , which could account
for it holding more water in the foot than Posey's does? Might be
worth a try to fire a little hotter?
Marci the Chinapainter
Snail Scott on fri 6 jan 12
On Jan 5, 2012, at 6:55 PM, Jeannean Hibbitts wrote:
> ...maiolica-style mugs...I have noticed
> that the bottoms "sweat"...I have a maiolica mug...that doesn't sweat. =
=3D
I've heard that she applies slip
> to the bottoms of her pots. Is this why her mug stays dry, because the =
=3D
slip
> seals it? If slip is essentially a liquefied clay...why would a slip =3D
seal when clay doesn't?
Not all slips are created equal. The slip may=3D20
not be the same clay as the underlying pot,=3D20
and may be 'tighter' when fired. Also, as we=3D20
have discovered this week or so, many people=3D20
say 'slip' when they are really referring to an=3D20
engobe. So, her 'slip' may have added fluxes=3D20
to make it more vitrified than the underlying=3D20
clay. In my experience, however, coatings have=3D20
limited efficacy over the long term, as moisture=3D20
will penetrate the 'dry foot' where there's no glaze,=3D20
cause a slight but definite swelling of the clay,=3D20
and result in crazing. Crazing allows even more=3D20
moisture in, and through, the clay. This seems=3D20
to be the inevitable fate of absorbent clays with=3D20
glazed surfaces, and a surface with a semi-vitreous=3D20
engobe between clay and glaze won't be much=3D20
different, unless it's applied to the foot. So, I don't=3D20
think the coatings are the real difference, here.
I think that the mug that's not leaching moisture is=3D20
simply made of a different, tighter clay body. Or a
similar clay fired a little higher.
Washing them in the dishwasher is certainly a factor,=3D20
though. Not only is dishwasher detergent terribly=3D20
caustic (it's got to do, chemically, the same job that=3D20
a handwashing scrubby pad does physically), but it=3D20
really soaks the dishes. A lot of water is being=3D20
absorbed through that dry foot. Leaving handwash-
destined dishes soaking overnight will probably=3D20
have the same effect, too, but not a reasonably timely=3D20
scrub and rinse.
Your own mug probably won't leach any noticeable=3D20
moisture if the only moisture is what penetrates the=3D20
micro-crazing in the glaze. Remember, it leaches
out the foot - right where dishwashing moisture soaks=3D20
in! Not much through-the-clay travel distance there at=3D20
all. Your purchased mug doesn't leach moisture even=3D20
after washing because it didn't absorb any noticeable=3D20
amount to start with, either due to a semi-vitreous=3D20
engobe on the foot, or a much tighter underlying clay=3D20
body. I'm betting on the clay body.=3D20
First suggestion: in my experience, a lot of commercial=3D20
earthenware clay bodies are severely underfired at=3D20
their nominal rated cone. I've taken some so-called=3D20
^06-04 clays up to ^4 with no evident warping or=3D20
bloating, and they looked better for it, too. At least,=3D20
test your current clay at a higher bisque. If you are=3D20
currently bisquing at ^04 or so (pretty common for=3D20
earthenware), try it at ^02, or even ^1. You may still=3D20
have enough absorbency to take a good glaze layer=3D20
(use a slightly thicker glaze if needed), but little=3D20
enough to result in minimal leaching of moisture=3D20
from daily use. Higher bisque nearly always results=3D20
in less crazing, too. If this doesn't help, try some=3D20
other clay bodies.
And quit using the dishwasher! Not only will it =3D20
reduce the moisture getting into your pots (and I'm=3D20
pretty sure it's the main source, not your coffee), but=3D20
your glazes will be protected from the detergent's=3D20
long-term caustic effects. If you can't give it up,=3D20
take a close look at how you use it. Use the 'fast' =3D20
cycle if there is one, and unless there's a major=3D20
baked-on mess, you don't need the full amount of=3D20
detergent, either.=3D20
-Snail
Earl Krueger on fri 6 jan 12
On Jan 6, 2012 10:44 AM, "Snail Scott" wrote:
>
> And quit using the dishwasher!
Did I just hear Snail volunteer to wash all our dishes for us?
What a sweetheart!
Just think of all the airline miles she'll rack up.
Earl...
Humming, "On the road again"
Steve Mills on fri 6 jan 12
I have to say that people like Jeannean and TC who opt for working in Earth=
e=3D
nware are very brave. Getting a really well fitting, non-crazing, lead or l=
e=3D
adless glaze is no small undertaking. I know that from experience.=3D20
In the '70/'80s I ran certain items on my list in Red clay, White slip, an=
d=3D
a lovely Lead Bisilicate Glaze which fitted like a glove and passed all t=
h=3D
e prevailing food use tests.=3D20
These were traditional items like Pitchers, Pouring Bowls, Mixing Bowls etc=
.=3D
which I felt looked better in that livery than in Stoneware.=3D20
I still feel that way, but my current tiny workshop doesn't allow working i=
n=3D
two totally contrasting styles. I have enough problems running Woodfire an=
d=3D
Gas firing with the same clay!
Steve M
Steve Mills
Bath
UK
Sent from my iPod
On 6 Jan 2012, at 00:55, Jeannean Hibbitts wr=
o=3D
te:
> * and other low firing clay
>=3D20
> I made some maiolica-style mugs using a white low fire clay. I glazed the=
m=3D
> inside and out, excepting the base, of course, with a brush. I have notic=
e=3D
d
> that the bottoms "sweat" - I pick up the mug of coffee and notice moistur=
e=3D
> on the table surface where the mug had sat. One of the mugs even leaks, b=
u=3D
t
> I assume perhaps I must have missed a spot in brushing.
>=3D20
> I have a maiolica mug made by Posey Bacopoulos (a souvenir from a busines=
s=3D
> trip to Minneapolis) that doesn't sweat. I've heard that she applies slip
> to the bottoms of her pots. Is this why her mug stays dry, because the sl=
i=3D
p
> seals it? If slip is essentially a liquefied clay (and I may be
> oversimplifying here), why would a slip seal when clay doesn't? Would
> burnishing the bottom of the mug help?
>=3D20
> I take it that this is one of the problems with earthenware and similar
> clays.
>=3D20
> I should note that I wash all dishes (including Posey's) in a dishwasher.
> Perhaps the clay is retaining some of that moisture and releasing it when
> the mug is warmed with coffee.
>=3D20
> After reading some of the recent posts and my own experience trying to
> cater to the tastes and styles of others - never again - I am seriously
> thinking of diving head first into low fire. It might be where my own
> voices are leading me. But the sweating is a concern.
>=3D20
> Any wisdom on the subject?
>=3D20
> Thanks to all,
> Jeannean
> Spider Hole Pottery
> Astoria, OR
ronroy@CA.INTER.NET on sat 7 jan 12
Hi Jeannean,
Earthenware has always had this problem - just does not get fired high
enough to prevent water getting in - and if you add enough melters to
vitrify the clay you have to add a lot and - it becomes very easy to
overfire.
Not only does water get in at the foot but through any pinholes or
glaze defects like crazing.
As water gets in the clay slowly rehydrates and expands which makes
any uncrazed glazes craze. White low fire talc bodies are designed to
help stop the expansion by the way.
As mentioned by others - if there is water in any clay - that clay
will heat up in a microwave oven (including handles) and can result in
burns.
If you do want to make mugs or other forms that may be used in a
microwave you should have a stamp made warning users of the problem
and imprint the bottom of your pots.
Terra sig does not make un-vitrified clay water proof by the way -
just slows down the absorption of water.
RR
Quoting Jeannean Hibbitts :
> * and other low firing clay
>
> I made some maiolica-style mugs using a white low fire clay. I glazed the=
m
> inside and out, excepting the base, of course, with a brush. I have notic=
ed
> that the bottoms "sweat" - I pick up the mug of coffee and notice moistur=
e
> on the table surface where the mug had sat. One of the mugs even leaks, b=
ut
> I assume perhaps I must have missed a spot in brushing.
>
> I have a maiolica mug made by Posey Bacopoulos (a souvenir from a busines=
s
> trip to Minneapolis) that doesn't sweat. I've heard that she applies slip
> to the bottoms of her pots. Is this why her mug stays dry, because the sl=
ip
> seals it? If slip is essentially a liquefied clay (and I may be
> oversimplifying here), why would a slip seal when clay doesn't? Would
> burnishing the bottom of the mug help?
>
> I take it that this is one of the problems with earthenware and similar
> clays.
>
> I should note that I wash all dishes (including Posey's) in a dishwasher.
> Perhaps the clay is retaining some of that moisture and releasing it when
> the mug is warmed with coffee.
>
> After reading some of the recent posts and my own experience trying to
> cater to the tastes and styles of others - never again - I am seriously
> thinking of diving head first into low fire. It might be where my own
> voices are leading me. But the sweating is a concern.
>
> Any wisdom on the subject?
>
> Thanks to all,
> Jeannean
> Spider Hole Pottery
> Astoria, OR
>
Lee on sat 7 jan 12
On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 2:12 PM, wrote:
> Terra sig does not make un-vitrified clay water proof by the way -
> just slows down the absorption of water.
As long as it does the trick. It is mahvalous on pie plates.
--
=3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D9=
7that is, =3D
"The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Vince Pitelka on sat 7 jan 12
Ron Roy wrote:
"Terra sig does not make un-vitrified clay water proof by the way - just
slows down the absorption of water."
Lee Love responded:
"As long as it does the trick. It is mahvalous on pie plates."
What's "the trick?" The key fact here is that it does not seal the surface=
.
"Terra sigillata" translates as "sealed earth" but everything is relative.
In comparison to uncoated clay, terra sigillata creates a much more
impervious surface, but not all that impervious when compared to a glaze,
even a crazed glaze. As many of you know, the technology of terra sig was
lost through the early Christian Middle Ages, like so many wonderful
innovations of the Greeks and Romans. In Parmalee's book on glazes he talk=
s
about the German ceramic chemist Henrich Shumann who rediscovered the
technology of terra sig while searching for a vitreous coating for ceramic
sewer pipe. Yeah, not very romantic, but he did us all a favor.
So, you cannot rely on terra sig for a sealed surface, but I expect it does
do fine on pie plates for the simple reason that you bring them up to a
temperature where any absorbed bacteria would be killed. Personally, I
think that's kind of creepy, and I'd rather have a glaze on my pie plates.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
Sumi von Dassow on sat 7 jan 12
I would suggest with regard to pie plates, that a pie crust is pretty
dry and not likely to leave a lot of bacteria to clean off the surface.
I haven't ever tried a pie plate with terra sig instead of glaze, I'm
just opining here...Lots of really bacteria-laden things like chicken
are regularly cooked in earthenware and the cooks live to do it again,
so I wouldn't find a pie very creepy.
Sumi
>So, you cannot rely on terra sig for a sealed surface, but I expect it
does do fine on pie plates for the simple reason that you bring them up
to a temperature where any absorbed bacteria would be killed.
>personally, I think that's kind of creepy, and I'd rather have a glaze
on my pie plates. - Vince Vince Pitelka Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University vpitelka@dtccom.net
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
Edouard Bastarache on sat 7 jan 12
Hey Vince,
you are a very fine diplomat.
Gis,
Edouard Bastarache
Spertesperantisto
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30058682@N00/
http://edouardbastarache.blogspot.com/
http://smart2000.pagesperso-orange.fr/bloggs_edouard.htm
http://www.facebook.com/edouard.bastarache
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vince Pitelka"
To:
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2012 6:01 PM
Subject: Re: Adventures in earthenware*
> Ron Roy wrote:
> "Terra sig does not make un-vitrified clay water proof by the way - just
> slows down the absorption of water."
>
> Lee Love responded:
> "As long as it does the trick. It is mahvalous on pie plates."
>
> What's "the trick?" The key fact here is that it does not seal the
> surface.
> "Terra sigillata" translates as "sealed earth" but everything is relative=
.
> In comparison to uncoated clay, terra sigillata creates a much more
> impervious surface, but not all that impervious when compared to a glaze,
> even a crazed glaze. As many of you know, the technology of terra sig was
> lost through the early Christian Middle Ages, like so many wonderful
> innovations of the Greeks and Romans. In Parmalee's book on glazes he
> talks
> about the German ceramic chemist Henrich Shumann who rediscovered the
> technology of terra sig while searching for a vitreous coating for cerami=
c
> sewer pipe. Yeah, not very romantic, but he did us all a favor.
>
> So, you cannot rely on terra sig for a sealed surface, but I expect it
> does
> do fine on pie plates for the simple reason that you bring them up to a
> temperature where any absorbed bacteria would be killed. Personally, I
> think that's kind of creepy, and I'd rather have a glaze on my pie plates=
.
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Craft
> Tennessee Tech University
> vpitelka@dtccom.net
> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
>
Lee on sun 8 jan 12
On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 7:17 PM, stephani stephenson
wrote:
> It's really difficult climbing back down the temperature ladder, once you=
=3D
have worked at=3DA0 stoneware/porcelain/high fire temps. Earthenware and l=
ow=3D
er fired work just looks soooo fragile and=3DA0 permeable,=3DA0 breakable a=
nd t=3D
emporary.
This is absolutely untrue. Fired to a higher temp, Earthenware
can be stronger than porcelain. I have found this true with my own
work. I've always liked Raku much better than porcelain and even
better than most stoneware.
I include Pete's entire essay on claybody strength below (and
Kurt Wild's brief thank you to Pete.)
Claybody Strength
updated wed 26 oct 05
=3D09
Pete Pinnell on thu 20 dec 01
For the final project in my Clay and Glaze class this semester, we mixed
about 50 clay bodies for testing, including red and white earthenwares,
stoneware, porcelain, and sculpture bodies. Besides other tests, we
extruded numerous bars of each body and broke them to measure MOR
(Modulus Of Rupture, which is a measure of the bending strength). There
are other strength tests that can be done (chipping tests, for
instance), but MOR is a quick and easy way to predict how well a body
will hold up to the bumps of everyday use.
Out of all these tests, there were a number of interesting trends:
1. Any amount of grog weakens clay bodies, especially in sculpture
bodies that are essentially underfired. Some of the sculpture clays were
so weak at cone 04 that we couldn=3D3D92t measure them- the bars broke at
initial contact before any stress was applied. Any texture in the clay
tended to have the same result, though the texture from using 50 mesh
fireclay seemed to have only a minimal effect. Really fine grogs- those
less than 80 mesh- also had little effect.
2. Glaze made a huge difference in strength. Crazed glazes lowered
results 50% or more from the strength of the same bar unglazed. Uncrazed
glazes raised the strength of the bars from 50 to 100 %. I had read this
before, and assumed that it was mostly related to the lack of surface
flaws on a smooth glaze (cracks like to start at a flaw- take away the
flaws and it=3D3D92s more difficult for a crack to start). What I found
interesting is that the amount of compression also mattered. We glazed
the porcelain bars with three different versions of my Pete=3D3D92s Clear
glaze, which ranged from mild compression for the original version to a
very low expansion version that places the clay in a very high
compression. Consistently, the higher compression versions produced
higher MOR results.
3. Clays have to be fired to maturity to get good strength. Even firing
porcelain bodies to cone 9 rather than 10 lowered strengths a good deal.
As an aside, I define maturity as the point at which a body achieves its
best strength and glaze fit, and no longer suffers from marked moisture
expansion. Absorption, in my opinion, is not a good indicator except
within one clay body group (such as =3D3D93high fire porcelain=3D3D94). Por=
cela=3D
in=3D3D
s
may need to have less than 1% absorption to avoid moisture expansion
problems, while mature white earthenwares can have upwards of 20%
absorption (which is why those cheap white tiles on our shower walls
don=3D3D92t develop delayed crazing).
4. =3D3D93Smooth=3D3D94 counts for more than =3D3D93glassy=3D3D94, which se=
ems to c=3D
ontrad=3D3D
ict one
bit of standard wisdom I=3D3D92ve heard in the past.
5. Quartz seems to be a problem- at least in a minor way. Porcelain
bodies that used a combination of pyrophyllite and quartz were stronger
than those which used only quartz as a filler. It=3D3D92s a bit of a mixed
bag, though, because glazes on pyrophyllite bodies tended to craze more.
What were the strongest clays? This will surprise you- it certainly did
me. The strongest clays, consistently, were (drum roll, please) red
earthenware clays fired to a full cone 04.
Yep, that=3D3D92s right. Plain old Redart based, smooth red earthenwares. T=
he=3D
=3D3D
y
were stronger than smooth, brown or gray stonewares, and even stronger
(over all) than porcelain, which I had assumed would be best.
Yes, it was very important to fire them to a full cone 04: cone 06
didn=3D3D92t hack it. Surprisingly, taking them to cone 1 did not increase
MOR, though they certainly were denser and felt more solid and chip
resistant. Within red earthenwares, we got consistently higher strength
from those using wollastonite as a secondary flux (5 to 10%), rather
than talc. It seemed best to use red clay in amounts of 50 to 70%, and
while Redart alone (for the red clay portion of the body) gave the best
strength, we got much better workability (and only a tiny bit less
strength) by using a mixture of red clays, such as Redart mixed with
Ranger Red (from Texas) and Apache Red (from Colorado).
As with porcelain, the clay was made much stronger with glazes that fit,
and higher compression glazes were strongest of all. Our all-time
champion (for strength, NOT workability) was the following recipe,
glazed with Linda Arbuckle=3D3D92s Majolica and fired to a full cone 04.
Redart, 60%
KT 1-4 Ball Clay, 30%
Wollastonite, 10%
I thought you might find this interesting. I only teach a Clay and Glaze
class one semester every three years, so while I plan to do some follow
up tests (these tests raised as many questions as they answered), don't
look for those results any time soon!
Pete Pinnell
University of Nebraska at Lincoln
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Kurt Wild on thu 20 dec 01
A thank you to Pete Pinnell on his interesting post of 12/20 on "clay body
strength".... worth reading!
Kurt
--
=3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D9=
7that is, =3D
"The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Steve Mills on sun 8 jan 12
I'm with Sumi on this.=3D20
Here in Europe/UK there is a long standing tradition in Earthenware Cookwar=
e=3D
s (as I suspect there is in the USA).=3D20
The Chicken Brick is traditionally an unglazed piece because it is supposed=
t=3D
o be soaked in water before the Bird and its accompanying ingredients are p=
l=3D
aced in it for cooking, the steam generated being an important part of the =
p=3D
rocess.=3D20
The same goes for the Tagine in N Africa, where the large hollow knob on th=
e=3D
lid is filled with water to aid precipitation of the juices back onto the =
c=3D
ontents, by keeping the lid cooler than the bottom half. This piece was ori=
g=3D
inally intended for use on charcoal or similar, not in an oven.=3D20
Neither of these are normally associated with any warnings to do with bact=
e=3D
ria.=3D20
Pie Plates are normally glazed only on the inside surface, I made them for =
a=3D
long time in earthenware, and thousands were imported into the UK from Fra=
n=3D
ce, Spain, and Portugal, we still have some in use at home.=3D20
No problems there.=3D20
Steve M
Steve Mills
Bath
UK
Sent from my iPod
On 8 Jan 2012, at 00:55, Sumi von Dassow wrote:
> I would suggest with regard to pie plates, that a pie crust is pretty
> dry and not likely to leave a lot of bacteria to clean off the surface.
> I haven't ever tried a pie plate with terra sig instead of glaze, I'm
> just opining here...Lots of really bacteria-laden things like chicken
> are regularly cooked in earthenware and the cooks live to do it again,
> so I wouldn't find a pie very creepy.
>=3D20
> Sumi
>=3D20
>=3D20
tony clennell on sun 8 jan 12
Steve: I took my collection of earthenware cups today and filled them with
water and heated them in the microwave for 3 and 4 minutes. No heat issues
or burning. I must confess they were dry and not out of the dishwasher.
I'll try that later.
I then heated up my stir fry in a wood fired stoneware bowl of Todd Piker's
and I couldn't pick it up without a towel.
I have always made pots for use and this thread about putting a warning on
my pots- BEWARE of BURNS has me concerned as I tiptoe to low temp.
Painting the studio today. I like painting just about as much as I like
glazing. Yuck!
tc
On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 5:50 AM, Steve Mills
wrote:
> I'm with Sumi on this.
>
> Here in Europe/UK there is a long standing tradition in Earthenware
> Cookwares (as I suspect there is in the USA).
> The Chicken Brick is traditionally an unglazed piece because it is
> supposed to be soaked in water before the Bird and its accompanying
> ingredients are placed in it for cooking, the steam generated being an
> important part of the process.
> The same goes for the Tagine in N Africa, where the large hollow knob on
> the lid is filled with water to aid precipitation of the juices back onto
> the contents, by keeping the lid cooler than the bottom half. This piece
> was originally intended for use on charcoal or similar, not in an oven.
> Neither of these are normally associated with any warnings to do with
> bacteria.
> Pie Plates are normally glazed only on the inside surface, I made them fo=
r
> a long time in earthenware, and thousands were imported into the UK from
> France, Spain, and Portugal, we still have some in use at home.
> No problems there.
>
> Steve M
>
>
> Steve Mills
> Bath
> UK
> Sent from my iPod
>
> On 8 Jan 2012, at 00:55, Sumi von Dassow wrote:
>
> > I would suggest with regard to pie plates, that a pie crust is pretty
> > dry and not likely to leave a lot of bacteria to clean off the surface.
> > I haven't ever tried a pie plate with terra sig instead of glaze, I'm
> > just opining here...Lots of really bacteria-laden things like chicken
> > are regularly cooked in earthenware and the cooks live to do it again,
> > so I wouldn't find a pie very creepy.
> >
> > Sumi
> >
> >
>
Snail Scott on sun 8 jan 12
On Jan 7, 2012, at 6:55 PM, Sumi von Dassow wrote:
> ...a pie crust is pretty
> dry and not likely to leave a lot of bacteria to clean off the surface...
and aren't you gonna kill 'em every time you bake?
-Snail
L TURNER on sun 8 jan 12
Question for clarification:
What is meant by "pie plate"?
My family serves pie on plates and cooks (/ bakes) the pie in "pans"
(regardless of materials of construction or type of pie), but some
here seem to think that you cook pies in plates, if so what do you use
to serve the pie?
LT
Lee on sun 8 jan 12
On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 11:55 AM, Snail Scott wr=
=3D
ote:
> On Jan 7, 2012, at 6:55 PM, Sumi von Dassow wrote:
>> ...a pie crust is pretty
>> dry and not likely to leave a lot of bacteria to clean off the surface..=
=3D
.
>
>
> and aren't you gonna kill 'em every time you bake?
Yeah, there are reports of thousands of people dying from bacteria in
baking pots every year!
Pottery has an incredibly high chance of being safer than the food you
put in it.
--
=3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D9=
7that is, =3D
"The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
stephani stephenson on sun 8 jan 12
It's really difficult climbing back down the temperature ladder, once you h=
=3D
ave worked at=3DA0 stoneware/porcelain/high fire temps. Earthenware and low=
er=3D
fired work just looks soooo fragile and=3DA0 permeable,=3DA0 breakable and=
tem=3D
porary.
Every step down the ladder you think, is this too far? am I doomed? will=3D=
A0=3D
everything=3DA0 crumble ,craze, and dissolve before my eyes?
I started out at cone 10, and I=3DA0 LOVE high fired work, don't get me wro=
ng=3D
. I love it, love it,love it.
Coming from high fire, the almost natural tendency is to freak out at =3D0A=
th=3D
e thought that water might be getting into or passing through any of =3D0Ai=
t,=3D
or that something other than near total vitreous firing will stand =3D0Ath=
e =3D
ravages of use or time. In fact ,the passage of water=3DA0 or shunting =3D0=
Aof =3D
water is often part of the nature of the materials.
Look around and do some research and you will find traditions from all =3D0=
Ao=3D
ver the world which utilize lower fired work for all kinds of hearty =3D0Af=
un=3D
ctions.=3D20
I'm thinking of the earthenware botillos I=3DA0 saw=3DA0 and drank from in =
=3D0AS=3D
outhern Spain, which gave me cool water on a hot day because=3DA0 the =3D0A=
poro=3D
sity of the walls=3DA0 allowed for an evaporative, hence cooling effect.=3D=
0A=3D
=3D20
=3DA0Earthenware or lower fired work also carries the same stigma when it c=
om=3D
es to tile and architectural ceramics, even though most of the cladding ,br=
=3D
ickwork, and both decorative and functional work throughout the world is fi=
=3D
red in the lower range of the scale we are use to.=3D20
I'm thinking of brickwork which has stood the test of centuries. Glazed ear=
=3D
thenware tiles provided cool relief for walls in hot climates and also=3DA0=
b=3D
ecame the=3DA0 new hygeinic standard for the interiors of dairies, kitchens=
, =3D
baths and food service establishments. Certain adaptations=3DA0 of tile and=
a=3D
rchitectural ceramics allowed for the movement of moisture from the interio=
=3D
r of a building to the exterior, alleviating problems with mold and moistur=
=3D
e build up.
It's up to you to make work that is suitable and durable for it's use, func=
=3D
tion,and=3DA0 location. But earthenware, lovely earthenware has an honorabl=
e=3D
=3DA0 history of beauty and service the world over.=3D20
Stephani Stephenson
Sumi von Dassow on sun 8 jan 12
Snail
Well, yeah, of course, but that's what Vince thought was creepy.
Sumi
> On Jan 7, 2012, at 6:55 PM, Sumi von Dassow wrote:
>> ...a pie crust is pretty
>> dry and not likely to leave a lot of bacteria to clean off the surface..=
.
>
> and aren't you gonna kill 'em every time you bake?
>
> -Snail
>
>
Snail Scott on mon 9 jan 12
On Jan 8, 2012, at 1:40 PM, L TURNER wrote:
> My family serves pie on plates and cooks (/ bakes) the pie in "pans"...
The terms are usually interchangeable, and refer
to the same item., most often round, with outward-
sloping sides and sometimes a crimped edge.
Pie plate, pie pan - just different terms. One might
serve the slices on a dessert plate (or just a reg'lar
plate if you ain't fancy), but the presence of pie
doesn't make it a pie plate as the term is usually
understood.
-Snail
David Woof on mon 9 jan 12
Hi All=3D2C
Not to discredit what anyone else thinks or has posted about the bacterial =
=3D
culture in crazed or permeable e-ware=3D2C but to offer a thought that migh=
t =3D
effect one's health=3D2C general well being=3D2C depression=3D2C and mental=
outlo=3D
ok in general while making and using E-Ware if considered before deleting.
The underlying mover when it comes to actual danger from the bugs and micro=
=3D
-critters in our environment is fear brought on by ignorance of accurate in=
=3D
formation.
When we develop an aversion to everything about our own bodies and begin sp=
=3D
raying antibacterial agents into every orifice and nook and cranny of our b=
=3D
odies and our environment=3D2C we kill all of our little protective friends=
w=3D
ho are there as first line of defense against the little "bad fellers" who =
=3D
are there as part of a master plan to build a healthy immunity.=3D20
This over clean compulsion also weakens our immune system because we don't =
=3D
give it anything to do because there is nothing to react to and so develop =
=3D
antibodies.=3D20
Questions are also being raised by educated thinkers of the world as to wha=
=3D
t benefit to the earth's eco-system as a whole do these "Bad" bacterias and=
=3D
viruses offer.=3D20
What vital shared genetic information between species is passed by these li=
=3D
ttle creatures including biting insects to keep our earthly environment in =
=3D
finely tuned balance. Is dis-ease a matter of being out of harmony with the=
=3D
whole as some say?
One needs to ask=3D3B who stands to gain uncountable wealth by withholding =
co=3D
rrect and accurate information from an increasingly fearful and unhealthy p=
=3D
ublic!!!
Why can folks from other cultures eat stuff that would kill folks who trave=
=3D
l there and vs-v?
Why can animals eat off the ground and not get sick?=3DA0 Is it some magic =
of=3D
creation that sets them above and apart from humans?=3DA0 Or the created m=
ag=3D
ic of a functioning immune system?=3D20
So should we all go eat some dirt? Some very healthy folks do! Some very he=
=3D
althy animals do!
could one start with ingesting small amounts after wrapping one's head arou=
=3D
nd this idea from=3DA0 researching of readily available information that su=
pp=3D
orts this idea.
In the very least=3D2C use common sense which has been trained by accurate =
in=3D
formation when one uses E-ware. Remember that 99% of the time throughout hu=
=3D
man history folks used local clay at whatever E-Ware temp. they could fire =
=3D
it to and they lived to pass life on to us. They also ate stuff that would =
=3D
kill us simply because we have no immunity to those particular organisms wh=
=3D
ich are still among us but that we have isolated ourselves from under the g=
=3D
uise of advanced developed civilization.
We may be headed for solid fuel e-ware for everyone what with all that is c=
=3D
oming down the pipe on the world scene and we will need an attitude of "mak=
=3D
e it work local" for local survival.=3DA0 Will we dig our own local clay=3D=
2C a=3D
nd get the hell off Facebook to make real face to face friends in our own c=
=3D
ommunity?=3DA0 Who will we help? Who will know to help us?=3DA0 The timid=
=3D2C fe=3D
arful and greedy won't make it. One will need courage and trust to reach ou=
=3D
t to take the helping hand even if is a dirty one!!!=3DA0=3D20
It will also be interesting to see if the old saying=3D3B "there are no ath=
ei=3D
sts in fox holes" still holds true. Since we are past where we as a human f=
=3D
amily can turn it around=3D2C and elections are a convenient distraction=3D=
3B I=3D
say bring it!! Win lose or draw it will be a ride not to miss.
Love you all=3D2C
David Woof
__________________________________________
4e. Re: Adventures in earthenware*
Posted by: "Sumi von Dassow" sumi@HERWHEEL.COM=3D20
Date: Sun Jan 8=3D2C 2012 8:07 pm ((PST))
=3D20
Snail
=3D20
Well=3D2C yeah=3D2C of course=3D2C but that's what Vince thought was creepy=
.
=3D20
Sumi
> On Jan 7=3D2C 2012=3D2C at 6:55 PM=3D2C Sumi von Dassow wrote:
>> ...a pie crust is pretty
>> dry and not likely to leave a lot of bacteria to clean off the surface..=
=3D
.
>
> and aren't you gonna kill 'em every time you bake?
>
> -Snail
>
> =3D
Jeanie Silver on mon 9 jan 12
Hi Stephanie
Thanks for elucidating the worth of earthenware so...well..,..lucidly. Lik=
e
any other media,its quality is contingent on the hands and mind -and
integrity behind it...
Jeanie in Pa.
May Luk on mon 9 jan 12
I read, somewhere, that the stoneware tradition came about because of
the availability of fuels, eg the forest in Germany. Whereas France
and Italy do not have as much wood to burn. Can anybody validate this
from their ceramic history books?
May
On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 8:17 PM, stephani stephenson
wrote:
[...]
> Look around and do some research and you will find traditions from all
> over the world which utilize lower fired work for all kinds of hearty
> functions.
> I'm thinking of the earthenware botillos I=3DA0 saw=3DA0 and drank from i=
n
> Southern Spain, which gave me cool water on a hot day because=3DA0 the
> porosity of the walls=3DA0 allowed for an evaporative, hence cooling effe=
ct=3D
.
>
>
> =3DA0Earthenware or lower fired work also carries the same stigma when it=
c=3D
omes to tile and architectural ceramics, even though most of the cladding ,=
=3D
brickwork, and both decorative and functional work throughout the world is =
=3D
fired in the lower range of the scale we are use to.
>
> I'm thinking of brickwork which has stood the test of centuries. Glazed e=
=3D
arthenware tiles provided cool relief for walls in hot climates and also=3D=
A0=3D
became the=3DA0 new hygeinic standard for the interiors of dairies, kitche=
ns=3D
, baths and food service establishments. Certain adaptations=3DA0 of tile a=
nd=3D
architectural ceramics allowed for the movement of moisture from the inter=
=3D
ior of a building to the exterior, alleviating problems with mold and moist=
=3D
ure build up.
>
> It's up to you to make work that is suitable and durable for it's use, fu=
=3D
nction,and=3DA0 location. But earthenware, lovely earthenware has an honora=
bl=3D
e=3DA0 history of beauty and service the world over.
>
> Stephani Stephenson
--=3D20
http://www.artspan.org/artist/mayluk
http://www.ceramicsbrooklyn.com/
Lee on mon 9 jan 12
On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 2:14 PM, May Luk wrote:
> I read, somewhere, that the stoneware tradition came about because of
> the availability of fuels, eg the forest in Germany. Whereas France
> and Italy do not have as much wood to burn. Can anybody validate this
> from their ceramic history books?
Also, technology from Asia. Stoneware technology came to Japan from
Korea and China.
--
=3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D9=
7that is, =3D
"The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Vince Pitelka on mon 9 jan 12
Regarding the discussion of unglazed cooking vessels, I know that there is =
a
very long tradition of unglazed cooking vessels in many cultures, and of
course it is true that each time the piece is heated up it kills any
bacteria. I guess from my point of view I cannot see any point in using an
unglazed cooking vessel works just as well. There is little question that
certain baking vessels like tajines create special effects or flavors that
are not possible with a glazed container. I don't want to spend too much
time thinking about what is creating those flavors. I am an adventurous
eater and certainly not any kind of clean freak, and I have eaten lots of
dishes cooked in unglazed vessels. I believe that lots of people are way
too paranoid about dirt and germs, especially when it comes to supposedly
"protecting" their babies and children. The reality is that exposure to a
certain amount of dirt and germs builds up our resistance and makes us more
able to withstand infection and disease.
I guess it just comes down to a question of practicality. Pies do not
benefit from being cooked in unglazed pie plates, so why not glaze them?
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
Eleanora Eden on mon 9 jan 12
I read and saved Pete Pinnell's post at the time and it led me to change
making many of my pots with lowfire white and now I make much of
my work with a combination of red and white clay. I don't like the terra
cotta look, but with half and half red and white I get a lovely orange
that gives a great looking foot against a white glaze.
Last summer I over-fired a ^04 kiln to a high ^03 and the orange clay had
turned into a very stoneware looking body. So this year I have plans to
start firing these pots higher. The clay looked marvelous.
If you have a good quality earthenware body and fire it properly, it should
not leak. Now, I encase my white earthenware pots entirely in glaze and
fire them on stilts. But at 25 years ago I didn't, and I am still
happily using
those mugs and dishes. They don't leak either.
I make my living selling earthenware pots that DO NOT LEAK. I use glazes
that are easy to clean and don't give nasty bugs places to hide.
Eleanora
--
Bellows Falls Vermont
www.eleanoraeden.com
Steve Mills on mon 9 jan 12
Tony,
I still love the simplicity and warmth of it.=3D20
As I type I'm looking with pleasure at the one remaining 3 pint Pouring Bow=
l=3D
I made in '81, red clay, white slip, honey glaze, still surviving almost d=
a=3D
ily use in our home.=3D20
It's a fine tradition, and I admire your having the guts to go for it.=3D20
Steve M
Sending the good vibes from the UK
Steve Mills
Bath
UK
Sent from my iPod
On 8 Jan 2012, at 17:34, tony clennell wrote:
> Steve: I took my collection of earthenware cups today and filled them wit=
h=3D
water and heated them in the microwave for 3 and 4 minutes. No heat issues=
o=3D
r burning. I must confess they were dry and not out of the dishwasher. I'll=
t=3D
ry that later.=3D20
> I then heated up my stir fry in a wood fired stoneware bowl of Todd Piker=
'=3D
s and I couldn't pick it up without a towel.
> I have always made pots for use and this thread about putting a warning o=
n=3D
my pots- BEWARE of BURNS has me concerned as I tiptoe to low temp.
> Painting the studio today. I like painting just about as much as I like g=
l=3D
azing. Yuck!
> tc
>=3D20
> On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 5:50 AM, Steve Mills m=3D
> wrote:
> I'm with Sumi on this.
>=3D20
> Here in Europe/UK there is a long standing tradition in Earthenware Cookw=
a=3D
res (as I suspect there is in the USA).
> The Chicken Brick is traditionally an unglazed piece because it is suppos=
e=3D
d to be soaked in water before the Bird and its accompanying ingredients ar=
e=3D
placed in it for cooking, the steam generated being an important part of t=
h=3D
e process.
> The same goes for the Tagine in N Africa, where the large hollow knob on =
t=3D
he lid is filled with water to aid precipitation of the juices back onto th=
e=3D
contents, by keeping the lid cooler than the bottom half. This piece was o=
r=3D
iginally intended for use on charcoal or similar, not in an oven.
> Neither of these are normally associated with any warnings to do with ba=
c=3D
teria.
> Pie Plates are normally glazed only on the inside surface, I made them fo=
r=3D
a long time in earthenware, and thousands were imported into the UK from F=
ra=3D
nce, Spain, and Portugal, we still have some in use at home.
> No problems there.
>=3D20
> Steve M
>=3D20
>=3D20
> Steve Mills
> Bath
> UK
> Sent from my iPod
>=3D20
> On 8 Jan 2012, at 00:55, Sumi von Dassow wrote:
>=3D20
> > I would suggest with regard to pie plates, that a pie crust is pretty
> > dry and not likely to leave a lot of bacteria to clean off the surface.
> > I haven't ever tried a pie plate with terra sig instead of glaze, I'm
> > just opining here...Lots of really bacteria-laden things like chicken
> > are regularly cooked in earthenware and the cooks live to do it again,
> > so I wouldn't find a pie very creepy.
> >
> > Sumi
> >
> >
>=3D20
Steve Mills on mon 9 jan 12
Aha!=3D20
I was drug up with the following terminology:=3D20
A Pie Plate is wide and shallow with a raised rim, wide enough to support t=
h=3D
e crust, and doubled as the serving plate.=3D20
A Stew plate is the same with a narrow raised rim (keeps the Gravy in!) wh=
i=3D
ch you ate from.=3D20
A Dinner plate is wide and shallow, hardly raised at the edge with a wide r=
i=3D
m for bones, fat, etc.=3D20
A Pan is a large vessel used for the preparation of such things as Hams, Pi=
c=3D
kles, Salt Cod, Cheeses, etc=3D20
In the old Country Pottery where I worked briefly, just out of College, Pan=
s=3D
like that were a stock in trade, they made loads of them. Not me, I was th=
e=3D
Gofer and Tea Boy.=3D20
Steve M
Steve Mills
Bath
UK
Sent from my iPod
On 8 Jan 2012, at 19:40, L TURNER wrote:
> Question for clarification:
>=3D20
> What is meant by "pie plate"?
>=3D20
> My family serves pie on plates and cooks (/ bakes) the pie in "pans"
> (regardless of materials of construction or type of pie), but some
> here seem to think that you cook pies in plates, if so what do you use
> to serve the pie?
>=3D20
> LT
ivor and olive lewis on tue 10 jan 12
I would like to know the range of values obtained for Modulus of Rupture in
Pete Pinnell comprehensive testing program.
Are these available ?
Was any hypothesis proposed to explain the reduction in strength in grog
loaded clay ?
There are other questions but these will do to go on with.
Regards.
Ivor Lewis
ivor and olive lewis on tue 10 jan 12
Dear May Luk,
It seems probable that Stoneware in Europe developed out of the German Sal=
t
Glaze tradition during the 1600's. Salt was mined in what is now Poland and
there were also Coal Fields for both fuel and clay, known as Seat Earth,
beneath the coal seams.
Great Brittan was denuded of trees by the need to build ships. Coal and cla=
y
were available in the midlands and the north east. Sunderland was one town
that developed a strong pottery culture. There was specialisation in the
development of Lustred Stoneware. The earthen ware tradition was still
alive in the 1960's. I bought clay from the Pottery at Seaham Harbour. A
favourite utensil was the basin in which Christmas puddings were steamed.
Regards,
Ivor
Ivor Lewis,
REDHILL,
South Australia
David Woof on tue 10 jan 12
Hi Vince=3D2C everyone=3D2C
I offer a real life example re. what Vince posted (below) about over protec=
=3D
ting children and babies.
A friend of mine=3D2C a new mom three years ago=3D2C let her little preciou=
s ha=3D
ve free rein to crawl and play in the Arizona dirt these past three years. =
=3D
They live on the side of a mountain so mom watches out for bears=3D2C couga=
rs=3D
=3D2C coyotes=3D2C and snakes=3D2C but otherwise lets her play as she will.=
I hav=3D
e never seen her with the snotty nose many babies get repeatedly in our soc=
=3D
iety from age six months to 5 years. This little gal is healthy=3D2C has ne=
ve=3D
r been ill or hurt other than having to learn to avoid the things with thor=
=3D
ns and pickers growing in this Arizona dirt. She is adventurous=3D2C alert=
=3D2C=3D
and bright as a button=3D2C and most of the day she has grubby hands and d=
ir=3D
t on her face until mom cleans her up to go somewhere public.
Her mum is not lazy=3D2C uncaring or uninformed.=3DA0 Letting her child out=
to =3D
play in the natural environment was a conscious choice.=3DA0 Mom is a profe=
ss=3D
ional woman who operates a school in the health care arena and has higher l=
=3D
earning credentials attached to her name. Some folks "get it."=3D20
My kids ate their mud pies too=3D2C and licked batter leavings from the cra=
ze=3D
d E-Ware batter bowl handed down from my G-mum. (You know=3D3B the one with=
t=3D
he rich patina from 100 years of soups=3D2C raw milk cheese and butter maki=
ng=3D
=3D2C and other domestic uses only a rich imagination could account for.)=
=3DA0=3D
=3DA0=3DA0=3D20
David Woof....Clarkdale=3D2C Arizona....
_________________________________
Date: Mon=3D2C 9 Jan 2012 18:58:24 -0600
From: Vince Pitelka
Subject: Re: Adventures in earthenware*
=3D20
Regarding the discussion of unglazed cooking vessels=3D2C I know that there=
i=3D
s a
very long tradition of unglazed cooking vessels in many cultures=3D2C and o=
f
course it is true that each time the piece is heated up it kills any
bacteria. I guess from my point of view I cannot see any point in using an
unglazed cooking vessel works just as well. There is little question that
certain baking vessels like tajines create special effects or flavors that
are not possible with a glazed container. I don't want to spend too much
time thinking about what is creating those flavors. I am an adventurous
eater and certainly not any kind of clean freak=3D2C and I have eaten lots =
of
dishes cooked in unglazed vessels. I believe that lots of people are way
too paranoid about dirt and germs=3D2C especially when it comes to supposed=
ly
"protecting" their babies and children. The reality is that exposure to a
certain amount of dirt and germs builds up our resistance and makes us more
able to withstand infection and disease.
=3D20
I guess it just comes down to a question of practicality. Pies do not
benefit from being cooked in unglazed pie plates=3D2C so why not glaze them=
?
- Vince
=3D20
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
=3D
jd.steveni@COMCAST.NET on tue 10 jan 12
Hi May and Listers,
I think Lee's posting including Pete Pinnell's research is spot on mainly b=
ecause this is how I fire e'ware, red or white with a sound majolica glaze.=
I also bisque fire quite high for majolica; and the temperature at 824 d C=
entigrade I posted a couple of days ago for my decal temp is also the temp =
I use for sintering majolica. Sintering makes for a wonderful decorating su=
rface. I mainly use a glaze by Terry Siebert from Daphne Carnegie's book Ti=
n-glazed Earthenware. The covering on red e'ware is wonderful, with -- from=
my notes -"a good break at edge, nothing dramatic, but visible." Also a qu=
ick burst of brushed or sprayed glaze with some rutile in it affords some v=
ery nice creamy warmed up areas unless you are determined to achieve the cl=
assic majolica look.
FF 3124 72
Flint 10
EPK 12
Zircopax 10
I add 2 bentonite. Fire to 1100d centigrade. Once again just up and down. =
If you put damp/wet glazed ware in then do program in some drying time. I a=
lso use a Morgan Hall glaze but not all over domestic ware. Urns. Also fou=
nd in Carnegie's book. Boy, you can't beat those lead bi glazes for melt an=
d fit. Just. can. not.
Want to bring up an example of where ceramics can go wrong in the guise of =
those wonderful 19thC cow creamers of which Stoke On Trent Pottery Museum h=
as eye-popping numbers in their collection. Because of the shape of the hea=
d aka pourer, milk products would pool and dry in the nooks and crannies an=
d was deemed to be the cause of more than one case of illness. I want to s=
ay diptheria, but am probably in error.
Dinah
Mount Vernon, WA.
www.dinahsnipessteveni.com
www.dinahsnipessteveni.wordpress.com
"To obtain a certain thing, you have to become a certain person."
Zen Buddhist saying
Steve Mills on wed 11 jan 12
We always have, for that reason.
Take care
Steve M
Steve Mills
Bath
UK
Sent from my iPod
On 10 Jan 2012, at 00:58, Vince Pitelka wrote:
>
> I guess it just comes down to a question of practicality. Pies do not
> benefit from being cooked in unglazed pie plates, so why not glaze them?
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Craft
> Tennessee Tech University
> vpitelka@dtccom.net
> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on mon 16 jan 12
Hi Sumi,
Well...could be...but there are a great many Bacterial and other Organisms
which may be present in either raw or ( which will remain present and viabl=
e
and will continue to multiply in ) so-called Pasteurized Milk, including
various Viruses ( such as H1N1 ), and even Rabies.
Listeria, Campylobacter, e-coli, and some of the kinds of Staff and Strep
Organisms are among the more common of potentially inimical or
illness-sickness related Bacteria associated with Cow's Milk.
Pestacides, Neutotoxins, PCBs, Radio Active Nuclear fallout, Prions, Heavy
Metals, Antibiotics, synthetic Growth and Sex Hormones, and other sorry
things also tend to accumulate or concentrate in Cow's Milk from the
contaminated foods and other environmental or poor husbandry practices
aspects characterizing conditions in which Cows are kept, fed, and managed
in commercial contexts particularly.
Dangerous contaminations of Ground or surface Water and or of Agricultural
products also occur from the instances of raw Bovine feces being deposited
close to or leaching into Plants intended for food, the feces carrying many
if not all of the same kinds of micro-organisms as are also associated with
Milk, where the Organisms get into Plants systemically, so that even
rigorous washing of the Vegetables or Plant Leaves and so on, will not
remove the pathogens.
Intellignt Farmers or Husbandmen historically always were careful to keep
all raw or green Cow feces away from Potable Aquifers, Wells, Streams and s=
o
on, and, away from any Gardens or other food related Cultivations, and, to
only permit or use Composted and aged 'Manure' or other Fertalizers for
edible Plants.
Corporations of course are not intelligent Farmers or Husbandmen, and, the
instances of really serious pathological illness outbreaks from contaminted
Vegetables which had been 'fertalized' using Tanker Cars or Tanker Trucks
filled with liquified Slurrys made from raw Bovine feces, have been on the
rise and likely will continue to rise from abonimable practices in
Agriculture and Dairy Management typical of corporate 'farming' and 'dairy'=
.
Anyway...TB definitely has long been a woe or worry among Domestic and some
Wild Bovines or other Ungulates, and, with right care and husbandry, has
been eliminated where-ever intelligent practioners have had their way.
However, far as I recall, the Jury is still out as for whether people can
contract the disease from Cows...being, the TB effecting people and the TB
effecting Cows, are differing strains, so, the other question then, is not
only one of whether people could contract TB from Cows, but, whether the
strain historically effecting people, is one which Cows could contract from
contact with infected people.
Phil
Lv
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sumi von Dassow"
>I would venture to suggest it was tuberculosis. TB was a problem in milk
> when cows were milked into open buckets by tubercular milkers.
>
> Sumi
>> On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 00:05:03 +0000, jd.steveni@COMCAST.NET wrote:
>>
>>> Because of the shape of the head aka pourer, milk products would pool
>>> and
>> dry in the nooks and crannies and was deemed to be the cause of more tha=
n
>> one case of illness. I want to say diptheria, but am probably in error.
>>>
>>> Dinah
>>
>> Diphtheria was spread through contaminated milk but it would have been I=
N
>> the milk already and not the fault of a poorly sanitized pitcher of
>> whatever
>> shape.
>>
>> Possibly some form of Staph...
>>
>>
jeanne wood on mon 16 jan 12
May,=3DA0I am an entire week late reading my mail, but this article claims =
Ge=3D
rman stoneware came about because of the plague.http://www.beerstein.net/ar=
=3D
ticles/bsb-1.htm=3DA0
Interesting.~Jeanne W.In Northern ID
--- On Mon, 1/9/12, May Luk wrote:
From: May Luk
Subject: Re: Adventures in earthenware*
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Date: Monday, January 9, 2012, 1:14 PM
I read, somewhere, that the stoneware tradition came about because of
the availability of fuels, eg the forest in Germany. Whereas France
and Italy do not have as much wood to burn. Can anybody validate this
from their ceramic history books?
May
On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 8:17 PM, stephani stephenson
wrote:
[...]
> Look around and do some research and you will find traditions from all
> over the world which utilize lower fired work for all kinds of hearty
> functions.
> I'm thinking of the earthenware botillos I=3DA0 saw=3DA0 and drank from i=
n
> Southern Spain, which gave me cool water on a hot day because=3DA0 the
> porosity of the walls=3DA0 allowed for an evaporative, hence cooling effe=
ct=3D
.
>
>
> =3DA0Earthenware or lower fired work also carries the same stigma when it=
c=3D
omes to tile and architectural ceramics, even though most of the cladding ,=
=3D
brickwork, and both decorative and functional work throughout the world is =
=3D
fired in the lower range of the scale we are use to.
>
> I'm thinking of brickwork which has stood the test of centuries. Glazed e=
=3D
arthenware tiles provided cool relief for walls in hot climates and also=3D=
A0=3D
became the=3DA0 new hygeinic standard for the interiors of dairies, kitche=
ns=3D
, baths and food service establishments. Certain adaptations=3DA0 of tile a=
nd=3D
architectural ceramics allowed for the movement of moisture from the inter=
=3D
ior of a building to the exterior, alleviating problems with mold and moist=
=3D
ure build up.
>
> It's up to you to make work that is suitable and durable for it's use, fu=
=3D
nction,and=3DA0 location. But earthenware, lovely earthenware has an honora=
bl=3D
e=3DA0 history of beauty and service the world over.
>
> Stephani Stephenson
--=3D20
http://www.artspan.org/artist/mayluk
http://www.ceramicsbrooklyn.com/
Lee on mon 16 jan 12
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 10:53 AM, jeanne wood wrote:
> May,=3DA0I am an entire week late reading my mail, but this article claim=
s =3D
German stoneware came about because of the plague.http://www.beerstein.net/=
=3D
articles/bsb-1.htm
It seems the article says that covered steins were invented to keep
the flies out of the beer. But they were made in fiance and
stoneware.
--
=3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D9=
7that is, =3D
"The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Soj on mon 16 jan 12
On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 00:05:03 +0000, jd.steveni@COMCAST.NET wrote:
> Because of the shape of the head aka pourer, milk products would pool a=
=3D
nd
dry in the nooks and crannies and was deemed to be the cause of more than=
=3D
one case of illness. I want to say diptheria, but am probably in error.
>
>
>Dinah
Diphtheria was spread through contaminated milk but it would have been IN=
=3D
the milk already and not the fault of a poorly sanitized pitcher of whate=
=3D
ver
shape.
Possibly some form of Staph...
Steve Mills on mon 16 jan 12
Lee, the lid was made out of ceramic with a pewter hinge and frame, or jus=
t=3D
pewter.
Steve M
Steve Mills
Bath
UK
Sent from my iPod
On 16 Jan 2012, at 17:11, Lee wrote:
>=3D20
> It seems the article says that covered steins were invented to keep
> the flies out of the beer. But they were made in fiance and
> stoneware.
>=3D20
> --
> Lee Love in Minneapolis
>=3D20
Lee on mon 16 jan 12
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Steve Mills
wrote:
> Lee, =3DA0the lid was made out of ceramic with a pewter hinge and frame, =
or=3D
just pewter.
Yeah, pewter with 4% lead (Will Robinson! Danger! Danger!.) ;^)
Actually, the lid sits on top, out of the drink ,and would probably
have no effect on the beer. The quoted article says that the stein
bodies were made of both fiance ware and stone ware.
I was reading about the rations of beer the first settlers to
American were issued when crossing the Atlantic. They couldn't keep
water fresh in the dark holds, but kegs of beer and casks of did fine.
Did the pilgrims drink beer?
Water is essential to life, but at the time of the Mayflower water
could also make you sick. You=3D92ve heard =3D93don=3D92t drink the water=
=3D94 whe=3D
n
traveling to Mexico or you=3D92ll get Montezuma=3D92s Revenge. Back then, =
you
didn=3D92t drink the water anywhere. This made beer an important
commodity at the time, because beer was a much safer beverage than
water. To survive the trip across an ocean, you needed some source of
water. During the Mayflower times, that source of water was beer and
wine.
The reason for beer=3D92s advantage over water is harmful microorganisms
cannot survive long in beer (or wine). Of course you can boil water
to make it safe, but in the 1600s no one knew microorganisms were the
source of their health problems. People just knew beer was safe and
water was not. So yes, the pilgrims drank beer.
Beer was the main source of water at the time
Ships carried wine and beer for long voyages
The Mayflower was a wine vessel capable of carrying 180 casks of wine
--
=3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D9=
7that is, =3D
"The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Lee on mon 16 jan 12
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 12:05 PM, Soj wrote:
> Diphtheria was spread through contaminated milk but it would have been IN
> the milk already and not the fault of a poorly sanitized pitcher of whate=
=3D
ver
> shape.
Yeah, before pasteurization.
Have you ever smelled the inside of a gallon milk jug if you don't
drink it fast enough? You'd think the milk has turned, but it is
just the milk on the sides of the jug. You wonder if they impregnated
copper in the plastic, if it would help keep stuff from growing? It
may help replace the copper in our diets we are missing because of the
leaching of copper in soil that has been treated with pesticides and
fertilizers. I've shared here before, that they think this
leaching action and low level of copper in our "modern" diets could
promote neurological diseases like Alzheimer and BSE.
--
=3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D9=
7that is, =3D
"The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Vince Pitelka on mon 16 jan 12
May wrote:
"I read, somewhere, that the stoneware tradition came about because of the
availability of fuels, eg the forest in Germany. Whereas France
and Italy do not have as much wood to burn. Can anybody validate this from
their ceramic history books?"
May -
As I understand it, the clay deposits in the Rhine Valley were natural
stonewares and were very refractory, and potters kept firing the clay highe=
r
in order to get strong, durable wares. This was a natural occurrence, sinc=
e
there was a lot of variability to their firings. Sometimes the kiln would
overfire and earthenwares would be ruined, whereas more-refactory clays
would be improved. Potters just kept pushing the Rhine stonewares to see
how far they could go and ended up with stoneware. The potters were making
their bricks out of the same clays, so their kilns stood the temperatures a=
s
well. German potters used kilns that are not dissimilar to some modern
double-firebox downdraft wood kiln designs. Indications are that they fire=
d
clay to stoneware temperatures as early as around 1200, long before the
Black Death. They did start throwing salt into their kilns around 1450, an=
d
that may well have been influenced by the desire to make a more sealed,
sanitary surface.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
Sumi von Dassow on mon 16 jan 12
I would venture to suggest it was tuberculosis. TB was a problem in milk
when cows were milked into open buckets by tubercular milkers.
Sumi
> On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 00:05:03 +0000, jd.steveni@COMCAST.NET wrote:
>
>> Because of the shape of the head aka pourer, milk products would pool an=
d
> dry in the nooks and crannies and was deemed to be the cause of more than
> one case of illness. I want to say diptheria, but am probably in error.
>>
>> Dinah
>
> Diphtheria was spread through contaminated milk but it would have been IN
> the milk already and not the fault of a poorly sanitized pitcher of whate=
ver
> shape.
>
> Possibly some form of Staph...
>
>
Sumi von Dassow on tue 17 jan 12
well I think I stumbled onto this discussion at the end of it, so I
don't know what era it referred to, but the TB contamination I was
thinking of was around the turn of the 20th century before milking
machines were invented to keep sick people from coughing into the milk,
and it wasn't bovine TB, it was human. But of course in badly run
dairies there were other pathogens in milk, and still are, so you're
right, it could have been any number of things. That's why I get my raw
milk from a local dairy where I can go and see how my cows are doing any
time I want.
Sumi
> Hi Sumi,
>
>
> Well...could be...but there are a great many Bacterial and other
> Organisms
> which may be present in either raw or ( which will remain present and
> viable
> and will continue to multiply in ) so-called Pasteurized Milk, including
> various Viruses ( such as H1N1 ), and even Rabies.
>
>
> Listeria, Campylobacter, e-coli, and some of the kinds of Staff and Strep
> Organisms are among the more common of potentially inimical or
> illness-sickness related Bacteria associated with Cow's Milk.
>
> Pestacides, Neutotoxins, PCBs, Radio Active Nuclear fallout, Prions,
> Heavy
> Metals, Antibiotics, synthetic Growth and Sex Hormones, and other sorry
> things also tend to accumulate or concentrate in Cow's Milk from the
> contaminated foods and other environmental or poor husbandry practices
> aspects characterizing conditions in which Cows are kept, fed, and
> managed
> in commercial contexts particularly.
>
>
> Dangerous contaminations of Ground or surface Water and or of
> Agricultural
> products also occur from the instances of raw Bovine feces being
> deposited
> close to or leaching into Plants intended for food, the feces carrying
> many
> if not all of the same kinds of micro-organisms as are also associated
> with
> Milk, where the Organisms get into Plants systemically, so that even
> rigorous washing of the Vegetables or Plant Leaves and so on, will not
> remove the pathogens.
>
>
> Intellignt Farmers or Husbandmen historically always were careful to keep
> all raw or green Cow feces away from Potable Aquifers, Wells, Streams
> and so
> on, and, away from any Gardens or other food related Cultivations,
> and, to
> only permit or use Composted and aged 'Manure' or other Fertalizers for
> edible Plants.
>
> Corporations of course are not intelligent Farmers or Husbandmen, and,
> the
> instances of really serious pathological illness outbreaks from
> contaminted
> Vegetables which had been 'fertalized' using Tanker Cars or Tanker Trucks
> filled with liquified Slurrys made from raw Bovine feces, have been on
> the
> rise and likely will continue to rise from abonimable practices in
> Agriculture and Dairy Management typical of corporate 'farming' and
> 'dairy'.
>
>
> Anyway...TB definitely has long been a woe or worry among Domestic and
> some
> Wild Bovines or other Ungulates, and, with right care and husbandry, has
> been eliminated where-ever intelligent practioners have had their way.
>
> However, far as I recall, the Jury is still out as for whether people can
> contract the disease from Cows...being, the TB effecting people and
> the TB
> effecting Cows, are differing strains, so, the other question then, is
> not
> only one of whether people could contract TB from Cows, but, whether the
> strain historically effecting people, is one which Cows could contract
> from
> contact with infected people.
>
>
>
> Phil
> Lv
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sumi von Dassow"
>
>> I would venture to suggest it was tuberculosis. TB was a problem in milk
>> when cows were milked into open buckets by tubercular milkers.
>>
>> Sumi
>>> On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 00:05:03 +0000, jd.steveni@COMCAST.NET wrote:
>>>
>>>> Because of the shape of the head aka pourer, milk products would pool
>>>> and
>>> dry in the nooks and crannies and was deemed to be the cause of more
>>> than
>>> one case of illness. I want to say diptheria, but am probably in
>>> error.
>>>>
>>>> Dinah
>>>
>>> Diphtheria was spread through contaminated milk but it would have
>>> been IN
>>> the milk already and not the fault of a poorly sanitized pitcher of
>>> whatever
>>> shape.
>>>
>>> Possibly some form of Staph...
>>>
>>>
>
>
Steve Mills on tue 17 jan 12
Yes, but remember this was the time of Galena glazes, Ladies using White Le=
a=3D
d or Arsenic as face powder, and Mercury injections as a "cure" for Venerea=
l=3D
Disease!
Steve M
Steve Mills
Bath
UK
Sent from my iPod
On 16 Jan 2012, at 22:02, Lee wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Steve Mills
> wrote:
>> Lee, the lid was made out of ceramic with a pewter hinge and frame, or =
j=3D
ust pewter.
>=3D20
> Yeah, pewter with 4% lead (Will Robinson! Danger! Danger!.) ;^)
> Actually, the lid sits on top, out of the drink ,and would probably
> have no effect on the beer. The quoted article says that the stein
> bodies were made of both fiance ware and stone ware.
>=3D20
>=3D20
> =3D20
| |
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