Greg Relaford on fri 6 apr 12
It occurred to me this morning that installing IR reflective panels or
coatings in building a kiln might be useful. This is sort of a trivia
question: Has anyone explored this sort of thing? There are expensive 'hot
mirror' technologies for optics, military, aerospace, but I'm thinking more
along the lines of tech being used in windows. There are some of the
expensive products being used in solar furnaces, up to 2000 degrees C.
Heat gets mirrored right back.
Greg Relaford
L TURNER on fri 6 apr 12
There are a number of industrial coatings that increase the
reflectivity of radiant heat in furnaces and kilns. ITC-100 is one
that is often discussed on Clayart.
LT
On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Greg Relaford wro=
=3D
te:
> It occurred to me this morning that installing IR reflective panels or
> coatings in building a kiln might be useful. =3DA0This is sort of a trivi=
a
> question: Has anyone explored this sort of thing? =3DA0There are expensiv=
e =3D
'hot
> mirror' technologies for optics, military, aerospace, but I'm thinking mo=
=3D
re
> along the lines of tech being used in windows. =3DA0There are some of the
> expensive products being used in solar furnaces, up to 2000 degrees C.
> Heat gets mirrored right back.
>
> Greg Relaford
Eva Gallagher on fri 6 apr 12
Hi Greg - I've used extra heavy duty aluminum foil between a layer of
insulating fire bricks and the next layer for the cover on my train kiln.
However I find that it disintergrates and I have to replace it at every
firing. Not really sure if it does any good - though I need to keep in all
the heat that I can as it cools so darn fast.
Eva Gallagher
Deep River, Ontario
http://newfoundoutpotter.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Relaford"
To:
Sent: Friday, April 06, 2012 4:27 PM
Subject: offbeat kiln-ish question
> It occurred to me this morning that installing IR reflective panels or
> coatings in building a kiln might be useful. This is sort of a trivia
> question: Has anyone explored this sort of thing? There are expensive
> 'hot
> mirror' technologies for optics, military, aerospace, but I'm thinking
> more
> along the lines of tech being used in windows. There are some of the
> expensive products being used in solar furnaces, up to 2000 degrees C.
> Heat gets mirrored right back.
>
> Greg Relaford
>
>
Greg Relaford on fri 6 apr 12
Thanks guys! This is all helpful feedback!
One of my teachers is having some thoughts about a kiln rebuild project,
and that is the sort of thing that get's my wild imagination going. We
have kicked around flue heat recovery designs too. We're looking at the
Nils Lou and Mel J. books, obviously.
Even if nothing gets rebuilt, I'm learning a lot.
-GregR
On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 2:20 PM, Eva Gallagher wrote:
> Hi Greg - I've used extra heavy duty aluminum foil between a layer of
> insulating fire bricks and the next layer for the cover on my train kiln.
> However I find that it disintergrates and I have to replace it at every
> firing. Not really sure if it does any good - though I need to keep in al=
l
> the heat that I can as it cools so darn fast.
> Eva Gallagher
> Deep River, Ontario
> http://newfoundoutpotter.**blogspot.com/t.com/>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Relaford" <
> greg.relaford@GMAIL.COM>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2012 4:27 PM
> Subject: offbeat kiln-ish question
>
>
>
> It occurred to me this morning that installing IR reflective panels or
>> coatings in building a kiln might be useful. This is sort of a trivia
>> question: Has anyone explored this sort of thing? There are expensive
>> 'hot
>> mirror' technologies for optics, military, aerospace, but I'm thinking
>> more
>> along the lines of tech being used in windows. There are some of the
>> expensive products being used in solar furnaces, up to 2000 degrees C.
>> Heat gets mirrored right back.
>>
>> Greg Relaford
>>
>>
>>
>
>
jonathan byler on fri 6 apr 12
Greg,
If you are interested in waste heat recovery, check out marvin
bartel's website: http://www.bartelart.com/firing/ecokiln.html
At the top left of the page he offers plans for all three of the kilns
he built with a heat exchanger in the chimney stack. He says to his
knowledge they all kept working, his personal studio kiln has been
running strong since the 70's. you may or may not need his plans as
his web page pretty well explains it all, and you can also look up his
patent here: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4139340.html
Really, I'm amazed no one did what he did sooner, it's kind of the
obvious next step after using IFB/fiber to insulate the kiln, but I
guess fuel was cheap then and people didn't care about waste. He told
me in an email that he asked some experts when he went to build his
kiln that recovered heat from the chimney stack and they told him it
wasn't possible. People told me the same thing when I was inquiring
about doing this to a wood kiln at NCECA this year... I'm dumb enough
to try anyway, and I will.
Also if you have the money, you can buy a set of regenerative burners
that will recover much of the waste heat for you. I know a company in
japan makes them in a small form factor, but I forget where I saw the
link. Look up regenerative blowers/furnaces, and something should
come up.
good luck!
-jon
Greg Relaford on fri 6 apr 12
Thanks! We looked at that site a couple of days ago....brilliant! I drew
up a modified version as a way to think it through.
Tonight on the ferry coming home, I was thumbing through the Nils Lou book
section on coatings, and then saw in the product list something that does
just what I was looking for!
CGHUC-(Ceramic Grade Heat Unity Coating)
Here's a link to a talk he gave about it:
http://digitalfire.com/4sight/education/refractory_coatings_offer_new_firin=
g_possibilities_110.html
Unfortunately, it isn't clear that the manufacturer still makes this
stuff...they got bought, and restructured. Still, I sent a note to them
asking about it...can't hurt. 33% less fuel used after application...
-GregR
On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 5:38 PM, jonathan byler wrote:
> Greg,
>
> If you are interested in waste heat recovery, check out marvin
> bartel's website: http://www.bartelart.com/**firing/ecokiln.htmlwww.bartelart.com/firing/ecokiln.html>
>
> At the top left of the page he offers plans for all three of the kilns
> he built with a heat exchanger in the chimney stack. He says to his
> knowledge they all kept working, his personal studio kiln has been
> running strong since the 70's. you may or may not need his plans as
> his web page pretty well explains it all, and you can also look up his
> patent here: http://www.freepatentsonline.**com/4139340.htmlreepatentsonline.com/4139340.html>
>
> Really, I'm amazed no one did what he did sooner, it's kind of the
> obvious next step after using IFB/fiber to insulate the kiln, but I
> guess fuel was cheap then and people didn't care about waste. He told
> me in an email that he asked some experts when he went to build his
> kiln that recovered heat from the chimney stack and they told him it
> wasn't possible. People told me the same thing when I was inquiring
> about doing this to a wood kiln at NCECA this year... I'm dumb enough
> to try anyway, and I will.
>
> Also if you have the money, you can buy a set of regenerative burners
> that will recover much of the waste heat for you. I know a company in
> japan makes them in a small form factor, but I forget where I saw the
> link. Look up regenerative blowers/furnaces, and something should
> come up.
>
> good luck!
> -jon
>
Greg Relaford on sat 7 apr 12
No luck finding a source, or recipe for this...but I did find a fairly new
Aremco product that seems to be similar:
Pyro Paint 634-AL
http://www.aremco.com/product/a5-s/
I sent a note to them asking for greater details than provided on the
website. It costs a bit more that the CGHUC, though it may cover
differently.
GregR
On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 8:05 PM, Greg Relaford wrot=
e:
> Thanks! We looked at that site a couple of days ago....brilliant! I dre=
w
> up a modified version as a way to think it through.
>
> Tonight on the ferry coming home, I was thumbing through the Nils Lou boo=
k
> section on coatings, and then saw in the product list something that does
> just what I was looking for!
> CGHUC-(Ceramic Grade Heat Unity Coating)
>
> Here's a link to a talk he gave about it:
>
>
> http://digitalfire.com/4sight/education/refractory_coatings_offer_new_fir=
ing_possibilities_110.html
>
> Unfortunately, it isn't clear that the manufacturer still makes this
> stuff...they got bought, and restructured. Still, I sent a note to them
> asking about it...can't hurt. 33% less fuel used after application...
>
> -GregR
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 5:38 PM, jonathan byler wrote=
:
>
>> Greg,
>>
>> If you are interested in waste heat recovery, check out marvin
>> bartel's website: http://www.bartelart.com/**firing/ecokiln.html/www.bartelart.com/firing/ecokiln.html>
>>
>> At the top left of the page he offers plans for all three of the kilns
>> he built with a heat exchanger in the chimney stack. He says to his
>> knowledge they all kept working, his personal studio kiln has been
>> running strong since the 70's. you may or may not need his plans as
>> his web page pretty well explains it all, and you can also look up his
>> patent here: http://www.freepatentsonline.**com/4139340.htmlfreepatentsonline.com/4139340.html>
>>
>> Really, I'm amazed no one did what he did sooner, it's kind of the
>> obvious next step after using IFB/fiber to insulate the kiln, but I
>> guess fuel was cheap then and people didn't care about waste. He told
>> me in an email that he asked some experts when he went to build his
>> kiln that recovered heat from the chimney stack and they told him it
>> wasn't possible. People told me the same thing when I was inquiring
>> about doing this to a wood kiln at NCECA this year... I'm dumb enough
>> to try anyway, and I will.
>>
>> Also if you have the money, you can buy a set of regenerative burners
>> that will recover much of the waste heat for you. I know a company in
>> japan makes them in a small form factor, but I forget where I saw the
>> link. Look up regenerative blowers/furnaces, and something should
>> come up.
>>
>> good luck!
>> -jon
>>
>
>
jonathan byler on mon 9 apr 12
I had a recipe from a guy for a low cost alternative to ITC coating,
that was basically zircopax and colloidal silica. I can dig that up
if you want. A guy doing foundry work with whom I was corresponding
was messing about with that.
On Apr 8, 2012, at 1:03 AM, Greg Relaford wrote:
> No luck finding a source, or recipe for this...but I did find a
> fairly new Aremco product that seems to be similar:
>
> Pyro Paint 634-AL
>
> http://www.aremco.com/product/a5-s/
>
> I sent a note to them asking for greater details than provided on
> the website. It costs a bit more that the CGHUC, though it may
> cover differently.
>
> GregR
>
> On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 8:05 PM, Greg Relaford
> wrote:
> Thanks! We looked at that site a couple of days ago....brilliant!
> I drew up a modified version as a way to think it through.
>
> Tonight on the ferry coming home, I was thumbing through the Nils
> Lou book section on coatings, and then saw in the product list
> something that does just what I was looking for!
> CGHUC-(Ceramic Grade Heat Unity Coating)
>
> Here's a link to a talk he gave about it:
>
> http://digitalfire.com/4sight/education/refractory_coatings_offer_new_fir=
ing_possibilities_110.html
>
> Unfortunately, it isn't clear that the manufacturer still makes this
> stuff...they got bought, and restructured. Still, I sent a note to
> them asking about it...can't hurt. 33% less fuel used after
> application...
>
> -GregR
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 5:38 PM, jonathan byler
> wrote:
> Greg,
>
> If you are interested in waste heat recovery, check out marvin
> bartel's website: http://www.bartelart.com/firing/ecokiln.html
>
> At the top left of the page he offers plans for all three of the kilns
> he built with a heat exchanger in the chimney stack. He says to his
> knowledge they all kept working, his personal studio kiln has been
> running strong since the 70's. you may or may not need his plans as
> his web page pretty well explains it all, and you can also look up his
> patent here: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4139340.html
>
> Really, I'm amazed no one did what he did sooner, it's kind of the
> obvious next step after using IFB/fiber to insulate the kiln, but I
> guess fuel was cheap then and people didn't care about waste. He told
> me in an email that he asked some experts when he went to build his
> kiln that recovered heat from the chimney stack and they told him it
> wasn't possible. People told me the same thing when I was inquiring
> about doing this to a wood kiln at NCECA this year... I'm dumb enough
> to try anyway, and I will.
>
> Also if you have the money, you can buy a set of regenerative burners
> that will recover much of the waste heat for you. I know a company in
> japan makes them in a small form factor, but I forget where I saw the
> link. Look up regenerative blowers/furnaces, and something should
> come up.
>
> good luck!
> -jon
>
>
Greg Relaford on mon 9 apr 12
I'm thinking of making a small test kiln to get some data this summer. I
would love to try the recipe! If I do this, it will be mainly fiber, but
with at least one hard and one soft brick inside to check for durability
and spalling (as Mel wisely points out.) ITC for certain will be the
standard to measure against.
The process will help me better understand the kiln side of things, and
should be fun.
*GregR*
On Apr 9, 2012 11:14 AM, "jonathan byler" wrote:
> I had a recipe from a guy for a low cost alternative to ITC coating,
> that was basically zircopax and colloidal silica. I can dig that up
> if you want. A guy doing foundry work with whom I was corresponding
> was messing about with that.
>
>
> On Apr 8, 2012, at 1:03 AM, Greg Relaford wrote:
>
> No luck finding a source, or recipe for this...but I did find a
>> fairly new Aremco product that seems to be similar:
>>
>> Pyro Paint 634-AL
>>
>> http://www.aremco.com/product/**a5-s//>
>>
>> I sent a note to them asking for greater details than provided on
>> the website. It costs a bit more that the CGHUC, though it may
>> cover differently.
>>
>> GregR
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 8:05 PM, Greg Relaford
>> wrote:
>> Thanks! We looked at that site a couple of days ago....brilliant!
>> I drew up a modified version as a way to think it through.
>>
>> Tonight on the ferry coming home, I was thumbing through the Nils
>> Lou book section on coatings, and then saw in the product list
>> something that does just what I was looking for!
>> CGHUC-(Ceramic Grade Heat Unity Coating)
>>
>> Here's a link to a talk he gave about it:
>>
>> http://digitalfire.com/4sight/**education/refractory_coatings_**
>> offer_new_firing_**possibilities_110.htmleducation/refractory_coatings_offer_new_firing_possibilities_110.html>
>>
>> Unfortunately, it isn't clear that the manufacturer still makes this
>> stuff...they got bought, and restructured. Still, I sent a note to
>> them asking about it...can't hurt. 33% less fuel used after
>> application...
>>
>> -GregR
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 5:38 PM, jonathan byler
>> wrote:
>> Greg,
>>
>> If you are interested in waste heat recovery, check out marvin
>> bartel's website: http://www.bartelart.com/**firing/ecokiln.html/www.bartelart.com/firing/ecokiln.html>
>>
>> At the top left of the page he offers plans for all three of the kilns
>> he built with a heat exchanger in the chimney stack. He says to his
>> knowledge they all kept working, his personal studio kiln has been
>> running strong since the 70's. you may or may not need his plans as
>> his web page pretty well explains it all, and you can also look up his
>> patent here: http://www.freepatentsonline.**com/4139340.htmlfreepatentsonline.com/4139340.html>
>>
>> Really, I'm amazed no one did what he did sooner, it's kind of the
>> obvious next step after using IFB/fiber to insulate the kiln, but I
>> guess fuel was cheap then and people didn't care about waste. He told
>> me in an email that he asked some experts when he went to build his
>> kiln that recovered heat from the chimney stack and they told him it
>> wasn't possible. People told me the same thing when I was inquiring
>> about doing this to a wood kiln at NCECA this year... I'm dumb enough
>> to try anyway, and I will.
>>
>> Also if you have the money, you can buy a set of regenerative burners
>> that will recover much of the waste heat for you. I know a company in
>> japan makes them in a small form factor, but I forget where I saw the
>> link. Look up regenerative blowers/furnaces, and something should
>> come up.
>>
>> good luck!
>> -jon
>>
>>
>>
James Freeman on mon 9 apr 12
On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 2:27 PM, Greg Relaford wrot=
e:
I'm thinking of making a small test kiln to get some data this summer. I
would love to try the recipe!
Greg...
Nils Lou has a discussion of a very low cost heat recovery system in his
excellent book (discussion, page 35, drawing, page 89). According to his
book, it cut his firing cost by 25-30%. Worth a gander.
Our own Tony Clennell posted a recipe for a zirconium-based coating a year
or so ago. It will be in the archives. What I wrote on my scrap of paper
at the time is 2 parts Alumina Hydrate, 2 parts 35 mesh Kyanite, 2 parts
Zirconium Silicate (Zircopax, et. al.), and 1 part Veegum T, by weight.
Never tried it myself, and it ain't ITC! Seems more like expensive kiln
wash.
Best of luck with your project.
...James
James Freeman
"Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
-Euripides
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
jonathan byler on mon 9 apr 12
From Dan Rotblatt to me a while back regarding homemade ITC. I'm
sure this simple recipe could be tweaked a bit. Not sure what the
stuff in Tony Clennell's recipe does, such as the kyanite, etc....
Perhaps straight zirconium dioxide rather than zirconium silicate, as
I think ZrO2 has higher reflectivity, is more refractory than ZrSiO4.
Have fun, YMMV...
______________________
Begin forwarded message:
Jon,
Happy to share. I'm a sculptor working in bronze. Over the years I
set up a small bronze foundry in my studio. A few years ago i built
the equipment to make ceramic shell molds. To make these molds I use
colloidal silica I get from Remet (www.remet.com). I had read about
what was in ITC (zircon powder and colloidal silica), so I picked up
about 20 lbs of zircon powder from my foundry supplier (if you're
located in the L.A. area I'll give you some numbers, but you can get
this from Remet although I don't know about small amounts). My
furnaces all have sides made of ceramic fiber. All I do is mix some
powder with the colloidal silica and paint it (actually dab it) on the
ceramic fiber. For my ceramic slurry (which uses silica powder rather
then zircon) I use roughly a 50 lb sack of powder to 5 gal of
colloidal silica. I probably use a similar ratio for mixing the faux-
ITC, 3-4 cups of zircon to a half gallon of colloidal - the
consistency is very thin (sorry to be vague, but it's been awhile). I
didn't measure, I just threw it together and used it - the colloidal
is a binder and the zircon is a reflective very high heat refractory.
Be sure to mix it a lot while painting, zircon is heavy and settles
quickly. I've read that using a cheap suction type sandblaster is a
good way to spray it, but I've just dabbed it on with a brush. Health
note, zircon is worse then silica - don't breath it as dust, and if
you are spraying it wear a really good respirator rated for fine
particulates and mist.
I did some tests on the ceramic fiber, just to see. They were more
aimed at furnaces, so I was interested in how flux (borax) effected
the treated fiber. Normally flux eats right through ceramic fiber
like water on cotton candy. The treated fiber was nearly unaffected
after 10 minutes or so.
Here's a pic: http://www.rotblattsculpture.com/zirconexperiment.html
The burner on my large furnace (which can melt 40 lbs of bronze in 35
minutes) hits against the side of my furnace (it's a round furnace
with the burner coming in horizontally off center so it doesn't hit
the crucible) and heats it to yellow/white heat. I am using 2300
degree F ceramic blanket, and the blanket seems to be holding up fine
though I haven't used it too many times.
Anyway, it does work!
Take care,
Dan
www.RotblattSculpture.com
________________________
jonathan byler on mon 9 apr 12
That's exactly what ITC is, expensive kiln wash. Not saying it
doesn't work, but when you break it down that is what it is.
On Apr 9, 2012, at 3:33 PM, James Freeman wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 2:27 PM, Greg Relaford
> wrote:
> I'm thinking of making a small test kiln to get some data this
> summer. I
> would love to try the recipe!
>
>
>
>
> Greg...
>
> Nils Lou has a discussion of a very low cost heat recovery system in
> his
> excellent book (discussion, page 35, drawing, page 89). According
> to his
> book, it cut his firing cost by 25-30%. Worth a gander.
>
> Our own Tony Clennell posted a recipe for a zirconium-based coating
> a year
> or so ago. It will be in the archives. What I wrote on my scrap of
> paper
> at the time is 2 parts Alumina Hydrate, 2 parts 35 mesh Kyanite, 2
> parts
> Zirconium Silicate (Zircopax, et. al.), and 1 part Veegum T, by
> weight.
> Never tried it myself, and it ain't ITC! Seems more like expensive
> kiln
> wash.
>
> Best of luck with your project.
>
> ...James
>
> James Freeman
>
> "Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
> -Euripides
>
> http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
> http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
Greg Relaford on tue 10 apr 12
I just had an interesting discussion with a co-worker here. He's a
semi-retired senior aerospace engineer, longtime foundry owner, sculptor.
He has a lot of experience and knowledge of ITC products, and doing high
tolerance testing of furnace performance. Bottom line, to paraphrase, no
one else can touch them...not a surprise. The coatings reflect,
re-emit...and _fluoresce_ in IR in response to visible light. In other
words, you do get what you pay for with this; strictly speaking Panko is
bread-crumbs, but functionally not really. The ingredients in ITC and
their physical makeup are more than the sum of their apparent parts, etc.
There are exotic ingredients....I'll leave it there.
He also pointed me toward Michael Porter, and his work on burners. He and
Porter collaborated some on this, and he has some of the early prototypes.
I ordered Porter's book on Amazon, and did some searching on Clayart
archives; didn't find any references. Anyone here familiar with use of
these burners in a kiln setting?
Onward adventure!
Some links:
http://www.amazon.com/Gas-Burners-Forges-Furnaces-Kilns/dp/1879535203/ref=
=3Dcm_cr_pr_product_top
http://www.chileforge.com/PorterInterview.html
-GregR
On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 2:14 PM, jonathan byler wrote:
> That's exactly what ITC is, expensive kiln wash. Not saying it
> doesn't work, but when you break it down that is what it is.
>
>
>
> On Apr 9, 2012, at 3:33 PM, James Freeman wrote:
>
> On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 2:27 PM, Greg Relaford
>> **wrote:
>> I'm thinking of making a small test kiln to get some data this
>> summer. I
>> would love to try the recipe!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Greg...
>>
>> Nils Lou has a discussion of a very low cost heat recovery system in
>> his
>> excellent book (discussion, page 35, drawing, page 89). According
>> to his
>> book, it cut his firing cost by 25-30%. Worth a gander.
>>
>> Our own Tony Clennell posted a recipe for a zirconium-based coating
>> a year
>> or so ago. It will be in the archives. What I wrote on my scrap of
>> paper
>> at the time is 2 parts Alumina Hydrate, 2 parts 35 mesh Kyanite, 2
>> parts
>> Zirconium Silicate (Zircopax, et. al.), and 1 part Veegum T, by
>> weight.
>> Never tried it myself, and it ain't ITC! Seems more like expensive
>> kiln
>> wash.
>>
>> Best of luck with your project.
>>
>> ...James
>>
>> James Freeman
>>
>> "Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
>> -Euripides
>>
>> http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.**com
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/**jamesfreemanstudio//photos/jamesfreemanstudio/>
>> http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.**com/resourcesdio.com/resources>
>>
>
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